/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-02-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Feb 28 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:01] <Hixie> "The HTML that Tim invented was strongly based on SGML (Standard Generalized Mark-up Language)" is rather revisionist, isn't it? I mean, I would buy "influenced by", but it wasn't even attempting to be SGML proper until DanC came along.
  7. # [00:01] <Hixie> (from http://www.w3.org/People/Raggett/book4/ch02.html)
  8. # [00:03] <Hixie> (linked to from the tweet above)
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  11. # [00:05] <erlehmann> Hixie what is this? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-server-sent-events.html
  12. # [00:05] <erlehmann> <p>The page you are looking for is no longer available at this URL.</p>
  13. # [00:05] <erlehmann> is there a redirect?
  14. # [00:05] <Hixie> that links works for me... try again?
  15. # [00:07] <erlehmann> ; curl -s http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-server-sent-events.html | grep Broken
  16. # [00:07] <erlehmann> <title>Broken link</title>
  17. # [00:07] <erlehmann> is there some type of IP filtering going on?
  18. # [00:08] <Hixie> no, it uses JS to redirect you
  19. # [00:08] <erlehmann> ; curl -sI http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-server-sent-events.html | grep 404
  20. # [00:08] <erlehmann> HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found
  21. # [00:08] <erlehmann> oh lawl
  22. # [00:08] <Hixie> because we don't know ahead of time what the url should be -- we look at the fragment identifier
  23. # [00:09] <erlehmann> i see.
  24. # [00:09] <erlehmann> pages move around in sections.
  25. # [00:09] <Hixie> other way around but yeah
  26. # [00:09] <erlehmann> yeah
  27. # [00:09] <erlehmann> :3
  28. # [00:09] <erlehmann> okay, sorry bothering you
  29. # [00:09] <Hixie> np
  30. # [00:10] <Hixie> (there is also ip filtering going on, but you have to hit the server pretty hard for quite a long time for my script to even notice you and filter you)
  31. # [00:10] <erlehmann> ah
  32. # [00:10] <erlehmann> say, if you are there, how could i move forward with my older proposal of having fragment identifiers for media elements contain media fragments?
  33. # [00:10] <Hixie> (for some reason there are bots out there that act really weird)
  34. # [00:10] <Hixie> don't they already?
  35. # [00:10] <Hixie> you mean like <video src="">?
  36. # [00:10] <erlehmann> like, i have a polyfill for something like http://example.org/#video?t=abc
  37. # [00:10] <erlehmann> like, i have a polyfill for something like http://example.org/#video?t=1:00
  38. # [00:11] <Hixie> oh you mean the fragment identifier of the page forwarding to the first video element?
  39. # [00:11] <erlehmann> no, i would like to generally address subresources
  40. # [00:11] <erlehmann> i did look at the data and '?t=' in urls or ids is very rare.
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  42. # [00:11] <erlehmann> close to nonexistent, i think.
  43. # [00:11] <erlehmann> and one could always use another delimiter
  44. # [00:12] <erlehmann> hixie, here is my demo http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/media-fragments-html-polyfill/
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  47. # [00:12] <erlehmann> is there an appropriate mailing list? the response on the whatwg mailing list was not much.
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  49. # [00:13] <erlehmann> i *know* there are people building stuff like that in js all the time and i think they would not need to
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  51. # [00:13] <erlehmann> and „let me link to this podcast“ would be nicer if the link would be on the page
  52. # [00:13] <Hixie> ah i see, the fragid forwarding to a generic element in the page, basically?
  53. # [00:13] <erlehmann> so how would i go to further that proposal?
  54. # [00:13] <Hixie> the short answer is that what matters is whether any browser vendors cares
  55. # [00:13] <erlehmann> so whom should i talk to?
  56. # [00:13] <Hixie> if you got no response on the list, then they probably don't
  57. # [00:14] <Hixie> did i reply to your e-mail or is it still in my pile?
  58. # [00:14] <erlehmann> let me check
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  62. # [00:15] <erlehmann> Hixie thanks for asking. you even converted it into a bug! https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23492
  63. # [00:16] <erlehmann> Target Milestone: Needs Impl Interest
  64. # [00:16] <erlehmann> i have author interest (lots of podcasters)
  65. # [00:16] <erlehmann> is there a media elements fun mailing list?
  66. # [00:17] <Hixie> whatwg@whatwg.org
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  70. # [00:17] <Hixie> but basically the next step is getting implementation experience
  71. # [00:17] <Hixie> which means getting implementation interest
  72. # [00:18] <erlehmann> so i need to convince someone, i assume?
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  74. # [00:18] <erlehmann> i have no idea how to approach this. my contributions to software projects are usually small patches.
  75. # [00:18] <Hixie> well... i'm always a bit reluctant to actually canvas for features. i always feel like if you have to convince someone, it probably means it's not important enough to do in the first place. (As opposed to features people immediately agree are a good idea.)
  76. # [00:18] <erlehmann> this would require real world testing and instrumentation.
  77. # [00:18] <Hixie> but yeah, convincing multiple browser vendors to do it would be one way
  78. # [00:19] <Hixie> or you could go the adobe route and just implement it for each vendor and try to convince them to take the patch
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  80. # [00:19] <erlehmann> does that work?
  81. # [00:19] <erlehmann> i mean, the patches are probably small.
  82. # [00:19] <Hixie> it has sometimes worked for them
  83. # [00:19] <Hixie> personally i find it a bit distasteful
  84. # [00:19] <astearns__> I thought that was the Microsoft pointer-events approach :)
  85. # [00:20] <Hixie> yeah, microsoft have done this too
  86. # [00:20] <Hixie> i mean, like i said, i feel that if a feature is worth it, people will just implement it without you having to convince them
  87. # [00:20] <erlehmann> people implement it all the time in js
  88. # [00:20] <erlehmann> badly, broken and non-accessible if you have noscript. only jumping to the first element.
  89. # [00:21] <Hixie> yeah
  90. # [00:21] <Hixie> it certainly doesn't seem dumb to me
  91. # [00:21] <Hixie> :-)
  92. # [00:21] <erlehmann> and i think since embedded media is such an important part of html, that could work in a general case
  93. # [00:21] <Hixie> (hence filing the bug to track it, rather than saying "I don't think this is a good idea")
  94. # [00:21] <erlehmann> other formats have sub-fragments too, i think
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  96. # [00:21] <erlehmann> ah!
  97. # [00:21] <erlehmann> i see.
  98. # [00:22] <Hixie> i would caution against trying to be too generic
  99. # [00:22] <Hixie> a lot of features die that way
  100. # [00:23] <erlehmann> i would just want to apply the media fragment to the embedded resource. but in the end, i could also settle for ?t=hh:mm:ss or something equally simple (though underwhelming, after all, the media fragment implementor experience is there)
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  102. # [00:24] <erlehmann> so which code base is supposed to be the easiest to work on? blink seems like a horrid mess (also they refer internal stuff i cannot read all the time in their bugtracker), is webkit or mozilla more accessible?
  103. # [00:24] <erlehmann> (are there more implementors with open code?)
  104. # [00:24] <Hixie> blink doesn't have an internal bugtracker, do you mean webkit?
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  106. # [00:25] <erlehmann> chromium
  107. # [00:25] <erlehmann> probably
  108. # [00:25] <Hixie> chromium doesn't have an internal bugtracker
  109. # [00:25] <Hixie> blink and webkit are very similar codebases, they only forked recently
  110. # [00:25] <erlehmann> oh?
  111. # [00:25] <erlehmann> let me look up what i meant
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  113. # [00:26] <erlehmann> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=93841
  114. # [00:26] <erlehmann> > Report link: http://go/crash/reportdetail?reportid=06bbd629efcb5c11
  115. # [00:27] <erlehmann> i assume /go/ is their internal bugtracker
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  117. # [00:27] <Hixie> oh that's just the crash log server
  118. # [00:28] <Hixie> those are always confidential (so's mozilla's, for example)
  119. # [00:28] <Hixie> because they potentially contain user PII
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  121. # [00:29] <erlehmann> PII?
  122. # [00:29] <erlehmann> Private something?
  123. # [00:29] <Hixie> Personally identifiable information
  124. # [00:29] <erlehmann> ooooookay, also my DNS is messed up
  125. # [00:29] <erlehmann> wtf
  126. # [00:30] <erlehmann> no it isn't. something has taken over my browsers „cannot find URL“ mechanism.
  127. # [00:30] <Hixie> (crash log servers tend to be under very tight control, so that only the engineers that actually need to be able to see the data from a particular crash can see it.)
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  129. # [00:30] <erlehmann> need to know basis
  130. # [00:30] <erlehmann> i understand completely
  131. # [00:30] <erlehmann> so the question still stands. what code base would you consider accessible?
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  136. # [00:33] <erlehmann> oh, it just redirects go to go.com
  137. # [00:33] <erlehmann> no hijacking going on
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  140. # [00:34] <Hixie> i expect they're all about the same... hugely complicated and intimidating :-)
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  181. # [01:06] <gsnedders> https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-python/issues/143
  182. # [01:07] <gsnedders> Are data-* attributes safe from the POV of sanitizers?
  183. # [01:07] <gsnedders> I mean, so the spec requires that UAs do nothing for all of them, which should make them safe, right?
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  191. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> unless some UAs do actually do something with them anyway
  192. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> which they shouldn't be doing but who knows
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  194. # [01:19] <Hixie> gsnedders: for some definition of "safe", yes
  195. # [01:20] <Hixie> gsnedders: but e.g. maybe the page the markup is being embedded into has a script that uses data-* and has a vulnerability, in which case...
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  197. # [01:20] <Hixie> i would avoid the word "safe" and always describe the attack scenario you're trying to avoid
  198. # [01:22] <gsnedders> Hixie: Well, surely this is true of any output of a sanitizer? If the page it is put into does stuff with script, it can be used for XSS.
  199. # [01:22] <Hixie> yep
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  720. # [08:03] <hsivonen> From morning bugmail: "I liked that Firefox 27 would allow me to see many occurrences of
  721. # [08:04] <hsivonen> U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER"
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  723. # [08:04] <hsivonen> https://xkcd.com/1172/ is so true
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  744. # [08:48] * SamB doesn't really see there being a whole lot of point in using data-* in embedded HTML if a script, UA, or add-on isn't going to be looking at them ... well, or CSS ...
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  747. # [08:51] <Ms2ger> UAs and add-ons shouldn't look at them
  748. # [08:51] <Ms2ger> They're just for script/style from the website itself
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  780. # [09:55] <zcorpan> argh, it seems it's not possible to reopen issues in critic if the file the issue was about was removed
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  914. # [15:03] <zcorpan> did blob.close(); blob.close(); throw before?
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  919. # [15:10] <jgraham> I thought it didn't now?
  920. # [15:10] <jgraham> Or have I forgotten the way this changed?
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  927. # [15:19] <darobin> blob.close(), blob.close(), you're my blob.close()
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  930. # [15:21] <zcorpan> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/FileAPI/#close-method
  931. # [15:22] <zcorpan> darobin: manboy?
  932. # [15:22] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, I think it was undefined before
  933. # [15:23] <darobin> zcorpan: Sex Bomb :)
  934. # [15:26] <zcorpan> darobin: ah
  935. # [15:27] <zcorpan> (i guess manboy lyrics is the other way around)
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  937. # [15:29] <darobin> I don't know that song
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  1195. # [22:36] <Hixie> people interested in the HTML parser should post feedback on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24833
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  1300. # Session Close: Sat Mar 01 00:00:00 2014

The end :)