/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-03-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Mar 02 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  14. # [00:36] <gsnedders> SGML/XML used by linguists is uniformally horrifying. It makes me want to cry all the time. :(
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  22. # [01:26] <JonathanNeal> gsnedders: I find all sgml documents to be rather frustrating.
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  24. # [01:27] <JonathanNeal> I would dig a future of native slim-lang parsing http://slim-lang.com/
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  74. # [03:58] * SamB finds the typical DSSSL stylesheet to be refreshingly straightforward
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  76. # [03:58] <SamB> (note: they usually don't have any actual tags in them)
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  249. # [17:49] <JonathanNeal> I’m writing a short article to describe the differences between the Content-Language header and the lang attribute. Is it accurate so far? https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/9309367
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  281. # [19:45] <SimonSapin> JonathanNeal: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#language is based on lang attributes, but when that’s missing it uses Content-Language as the final fallback
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  283. # [19:56] <SimonSapin> I don’t know if the difference means anything in practice
  284. # [19:56] <SimonSapin> such as, any tool interpreting them differently
  285. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> :lang?
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  289. # [20:09] <SimonSapin> :lang() treats them the same, other than priority
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  291. # [20:12] <JonathanNeal> SimonSapin, do you know if the lang attribute supports multiple languages?
  292. # [20:13] <SimonSapin> It doesn’t
  293. # [20:13] <SimonSapin> but when falling back to Content-Language, "the language of an element" doesn’t either
  294. # [20:14] <SimonSapin> see link above
  295. # [20:15] <JonathanNeal> I believe Content-Language supports multiple attributes http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.12
  296. # [20:15] <SimonSapin> yes
  297. # [20:16] <SimonSapin> but not when it’s used as the fallback for the language of an element, per the HTML spec
  298. # [20:16] <SimonSapin> maybe search engines use Content-Language
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  300. # [20:18] <SimonSapin> my point is that "Don’t do this because it’s Wrong" isn’t very helpful if it doesn’t make any difference in practice.
  301. # [20:20] <JonathanNeal> Oh, do you think I suggesting something like that in my post?
  302. # [20:21] <SimonSapin> not really
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  304. # [20:22] <SimonSapin> but "This also means a document intending to teach French to English readers would use Content-Language: en", what happens if I use Content-Language: fr in this case?
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  306. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> More angels would dance on the head of a pin
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  309. # [20:25] <JonathanNeal> SimonSapin, in that case, a translation service might recommend translating the french portions into English, despite the intent to keep them?
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  311. # [20:26] <SimonSapin> JonathanNeal: than that’s what the article should say
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  313. # [20:27] <SimonSapin> all the better if you have example of existing translation services that do behave that way
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  315. # [20:29] <JonathanNeal> Great.
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  317. # [20:32] <zewt> if there are no web-compat reasons to do otherwise (which there may be), content-language and <html @lang> should be the same thing
  318. # [20:32] <zewt> it's hard enough to get people to tag languages in the first place, without having multiple different ways with different nuances, and some in HTML headers and others inline
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  322. # [20:44] <SimonSapin> +1
  323. # [20:45] <SimonSapin> though for HTML’s purposes they’re already the same, and CSS only uses them through HTML’s definition
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  327. # [20:55] <JonathanNeal> zewt, SimonSapin, thanks for the input. I’ve made some changed based on our conversation. Do you think this reads more accurately? https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/9309367
  328. # [20:56] <SimonSapin> JonathanNeal: don’t link to HTML 4
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  330. # [21:00] <SimonSapin> JonathanNeal: "Google determines ...", is that Search or Translate? The blog post you link to seems to be about Search
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  332. # [21:09] <JonathanNeal> SimonSapin: Thanks, I will do some research and clarify that.
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  337. # [22:04] * heycam|away is now known as heycam
  338. # [22:04] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: SimonSapin is right that you shouldn't reference HTML4
  339. # [22:05] <MikeSmith> that spec should not be trusted as anything reflecting reality
  340. # [22:05] <MikeSmith> I guess you should just use http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p2-semantics-26#section-3.1.3.2 instead
  341. # [22:06] <MikeSmith> there's supposed to be an updated RFC of the HTTP spec published soon
  342. # [22:06] <MikeSmith> I think -26 is the final editor's draft
  343. # [22:07] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: or instead maybe best to just use https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-html-language-declarations
  344. # [22:07] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith: Thanks. I'm using that document currently to reference more of what I'm writing.
  345. # [22:08] <MikeSmith> https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-html-language-declarations#metadata
  346. # [22:08] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: ok
  347. # [22:09] <MikeSmith> btw the stuff under https://www.w3.org/International/ is generally trustworthy
  348. # [22:10] <MikeSmith> since Richard Ishida knows whereof he speaks, and he keeps that content up to date
  349. # [22:12] <JonathanNeal> Basically - English is the default language of the web. The lang attribute describes the language of actual content. It falls back on content-header. Content-header describes the language of the intended audience. It can describe multiple languages, but in practice, keep pages monolingual.
  350. # [22:12] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  351. # [22:12] <MikeSmith> https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-http-and-lang seems good too
  352. # [22:12] <JonathanNeal> content-language header
  353. # [22:28] * SamB wonders again what license applies to the stuff on http://resources.whatwg.org/ ...
  354. # [22:31] <Ms2ger> That's a good question
  355. # [22:33] <Ms2ger> I don't think anyone took the time to slap a license on it
  356. # [22:34] * Quits: numerical (numerical@s-e-c-u-r-e-d.info) (Quit: changing servers)
  357. # [22:34] <Ms2ger> Probably look up who contributed to https://github.com/whatwg/resources.whatwg.org and send them email cc www-archive to see if they agree to relicensing
  358. # [22:35] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  359. # [22:39] * SamB was just going to report a bug against HTML even though it's not really HTML-related ... but I guess that would also work
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  361. # [22:41] <SamB> my first inclination was to file in issue against the github repository, but it has issues disabled :-(
  362. # [22:42] * SamB wonders if these logos are trademarks
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  365. # [22:43] <Ms2ger> The XHR one may be somewhat problematic
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  369. # [22:48] <ZiNC> Hey.
  370. # [22:51] <ZiNC> Is there a WebMUX implementation anywhere?
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  376. # [23:09] <MikeSmith> never heard of it
  377. # [23:10] <ZiNC> Last draft seems to be from 1999.
  378. # [23:10] <ZiNC> Also called w3mux sometimes, or SMUX originally.
  379. # [23:17] <SamB> is that related to SPDY at all?
  380. # [23:18] <ZiNC> Some multiplexing ideas might be similar, but I think that's about it.
  381. # [23:19] <ZiNC> I think the implementation is part of the ILU. Also from 99.
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  384. # [23:23] <ZiNC> Hmm, that doesn't look like a generally usable implementation. Tied to the ILU, whatever that does.
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  386. # [23:25] * Quits: llkats (~llkats@70-36-197-207.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  387. # [23:27] <ZiNC> Is anyone aware of any simple, implemented, multiplexing protocols?
  388. # [23:29] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  389. # [23:32] * Joins: encryptd_fractal (~mfrawley@rrcs-96-10-73-251.se.biz.rr.com)
  390. # [23:33] <JonathanNeal> are any of you opinionated between public domain and MIT?
  391. # [23:37] <ZiNC> Jonathan: Copyright notice shown?
  392. # [23:39] <JonathanNeal> In general, in picking a license. I have committed projects to the public domain, and I haven’t had any problems. On the other hand, I’ve had some issues with MIT licensed stuff because of opinions on how attribution should be made.
  393. # [23:40] <ZiNC> I can't say I've dwelt much on licenses.
  394. # [23:41] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@dyn.170-56-7-31.swissinet.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  395. # [23:41] <ZiNC> How's attribution different to any other license with a similar clause?
  396. # [23:50] * Joins: rafaelrinaldi (~rafaelrin@187.2.143.225)
  397. # [23:55] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-186-68-36.range86-186.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  398. # [23:56] * Joins: weinig_ (~weinig@17.114.218.135)
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  400. # [23:57] * weinig_ is now known as weinig
  401. # [23:59] <zewt> JonathanNeal: not personally; some people say they prefer MIT for the warranty disclaimer, but I don't know how that's better than just putting a warranty disclaimer in by itself
  402. # Session Close: Mon Mar 03 00:00:00 2014

The end :)