/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-03-05 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Mar 05 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:08] <Hixie> KevinMarks_: given the other examples on that page, that's actually a really low percentage
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# [00:39] * SamB would have thought JPEG more likely as a sexually transmitted disease ...
# [00:40] <jensnockert_> ECMAscript sounds like a skin disease.
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# [03:31] * MikeSmith is suprised nobody mentioned "divitis" during this meeting of the minds, nor "tag abuse"
# [03:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: you use tmux? or just screen?
# [03:32] <MikeSmith> I started using tmux and it seems real nice
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# [03:34] <MikeSmith> can display 🍺 and all other higher unicode while screen can't
# [03:35] <MikeSmith> (as long as the glyphs are around of course)
# [03:35] <Hixie> screen
# [03:35] <zewt> my irc client can't display that, so i'll just assume it's PILE OF POO
# [03:35] <Hixie> i've only recently gotten to a world that's beyond ASCII, so...
# [03:36] <zewt> (well, it does display it as a single missing character, so it's probably just a font thing)
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# [03:37] <MikeSmith> zewt: it's U+1F37A BEER MUG
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# [03:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie: tmux is definitely worth a try. The only problem I ran into with it so far is not really a problem at all but it's that it uses C-b as its prefix key instead of C-a screen thing but my fingers are so trained to the screen C-a that when I want to go back to the beginning of a line I still keep hitting "C-a a" instead of just C-a (and so I get an extra "a" at the beginning of the line that I think have to backspace over)
# [03:40] <Hixie> i configure screen to use C-p. I use C-a to go to the start of the line.
# [03:41] <zewt> MikeSmith: if you can't even reconfigure that, that would DQ it for me :P
# [03:41] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah I probably should have done it that way from the beginning so that my fingers didn't end up having C-a burned into memory
# [03:41] <zewt> mostly screen is "good enough" that i haven't really bothered trying other things
# [03:42] <MikeSmith> zewt: nah you can reconfigure it in tmux too
# [03:42] <Hixie> is tmux the one that uses UDP?
# [03:42] <MikeSmith> Hixie: dunno if it does or not
# [03:42] <Hixie> there's some alternative to screen that uses UDP and predictive magic and local echo to make it seem to have radically lower latency
# [03:43] <zewt> ew
# [03:43] <MikeSmith> zewt: yeah screen is great. Honestly the only reason I switched was because of the unicode thing
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# [03:43] <Hixie> so i figure i'm good with screen until i can switch to that
# [03:43] <zewt> i'd expect that if there was enough latency to need it, any mispredictions would be worse than the gain
# [03:43] <MikeSmith> Hixie: maybe you're thinking of mosh? (alternative to ssh)
# [03:44] <MikeSmith> at least that sounds like what mosh does
# [03:44] <Hixie> ah yeah, maybe that's it
# [03:44] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [03:44] <MikeSmith> well I started using mosh recently and it's really great actually
# [03:45] <MikeSmith> the other thing about mosh is is that even if your wifi connection drops in and out or your IP address changes, the mosh session just persists
# [03:45] <MikeSmith> crappy hotel wifi or whatever
# [03:45] <zewt> that's nice i guess, though i wish the ip changing thing could be fixed infrastructurally
# [03:45] <MikeSmith> zewt: yeah
# [03:45] <zewt> it's excessively lame that all of my connections drop when I unplug my laptop from ethernet
# [03:46] <zewt> (and then there's a period of laptop going "huh what wait up I'm confused")
# [03:47] <zewt> most of my terminals are in windows with putty, and I just have them all have a startup command of "screen -rd", so I just connect and it goes
# [03:47] <zewt> though I need to figure out how to say "connect if there's already a screen running, otherwise start a new one"
# [03:47] <MikeSmith> yeah if you have mosh sessions and you unplug that won't happen. At some point mosh will say, "No response for server for NN seconds." where the NN keeps increasing until it gets some network connection behind the session again
# [03:47] <zewt> exponential fallback -1
# [03:48] <Hixie> i have ssh set up to autostart in terminal, and my .bash_profile autostarts screen, so reconnecting for me is just a matter of restarting terminal
# [03:48] <zewt> (yeah you didn't say exponential I know heh)
# [03:48] <Hixie> but i really should move to mosh at some point
# [03:49] <zewt> (but generally increasing fallback makes sense if you're talking to a big central server, not so much for terminals where you're usually talking to a small personal server with no thundering herd problem to worry about)
# [03:49] <MikeSmith> the only downside I've run into with mosh is (surprise) a unicode issue -- but it's not due to a problem in mosh, it's due to a problem with OS X using some old libc instead of glibc
# [03:49] <zewt> heh one of the big things osx needs: gnu tools
# [03:49] <zewt> drives me crazy when I type "ls /foo", then hit up and add "ls /foo -l"
# [03:50] <MikeSmith> yeah
# [03:50] <zewt> and osx looks at me funny, instead of just working
# [03:51] <MikeSmith> I just used the g* versions of everything on osx, installed from port (e.g., greadlink, gdate)
# [03:52] <MikeSmith> anyway, the osx unicode issue causes mosh client on osx to not display U+1F37A, etc., as expected
# [03:52] <zewt> guess I've never hit anything to make me care about non-BMP unicode
# [03:52] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/keithw/mosh/issues/478 and https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew/issues/26370 have the details
# [03:52] <zewt> other than in principle (utf-16 needs to die)
# [03:53] <MikeSmith> yeah for me it's more the principle I guess
# [03:54] <zewt> utf-16 is fantastic because: it combines the downsides of UCS-4 (non-byte encoding so it's completely incompatible with multibyte encodings), *and* the downsides of UTF-8 (compared to UTF-32, eg. no random access by index)
# [03:54] <zewt> worst of both worlds. thanks for that
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# [03:55] <zewt> (not that the latter is a big downside ... it's just the *only* benefit of raw UCS-4, really)
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# [05:52] <MikeSmith> heads-up: some time later today I'm going to break all URLs under http://dev.w3.org/csswg/ again
# [05:53] <MikeSmith> we are flipping the DNS over on the host those are getting rewritten to, and I'll need to change a rewrite directive to point to a different port on that host
# [05:53] <MikeSmith> but I can't do that until after the DNS if flipped
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# [06:02] * SamB thinks it's remarkable how many of the WHATWG logos are bad visual puns ...
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# [06:30] <Domenic_> <3 the WHATWG logos
# [06:30] <Domenic_> My favorite is encoding
# [06:30] <Hixie> i must admit to not understanding the xhr one
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# [06:31] <Domenic_> yeah... apparently from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Ajax
# [06:32] <Hixie> aah
# [06:33] <zewt> i can't say that i've ever consciously noticed that a whatwg logo of any sort exists
# [06:33] <Hixie> it's, like, plastered all over the site
# [06:33] <zewt> i probably just tune logos out without noticing it
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# [07:27] <SamB> Domenic_: yes, encoding is great but I had a nice delayed groan with the XHR one when I finally figured out who the guy in the picture had to be :-)
# [07:30] <SamB> had no idea there was a football team involved though
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# [07:33] <SamB> so, is "our" usage of this Ajax based on the "right to parody", or?
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# [07:35] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: The URL breakage is temporary, right?
# [07:36] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: yeah
# [07:36] <TabAtkins> All right, no problem then. ^_^
# [07:36] <MikeSmith> actually right now I'm trying to set it up so there will not even be any temporary breakage
# [07:37] <SamB> huh, why am I surprised that google is so confident as to the identity of this greek dude in logo-xhr.png that it fills in the words "ajax amsterdam logo" in the search box when I search by that image?
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# [07:54] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: OK I think I've got the ports and apache config set up the right way now and we'll be flipping the DNS soon
# [07:54] <MikeSmith> but it'll take a few hours to propogate
# [07:54] <MikeSmith> so I reckon you'll be asleep by then
# [07:54] <TabAtkins> yeah
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# [07:54] <MikeSmith> but when you get online tomorrow if you find any problems lemme know
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# [07:55] * SamB isn't sure why we the logo for the URL standard is based on a colon ...
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# [08:05] <SamB> oh, right ...
# [08:05] * SamB remembers that a lot of URL schemes don't do anything special with /
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# [11:07] <mathiasbynens> hsivonen: your feedback on https://codereview.chromium.org/183893021 (see comments) would be appreciated
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# [11:38] <jgraham> Philip`_: For informational purposes, is your old OCaml implementation of the HTML tokenizer/parser around?
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# [13:32] <MikeSmith> jgraham: about the wptserve code change we need for w3c-test.org (option to not restrict access to localhost), you want me to write a PR or have you been working on it already?
# [13:35] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I haven't worked on it yet
# [13:35] <jgraham> MikeSmith: So feel free
# [13:36] <MikeSmith> ok I will
# [13:40] <MikeSmith> jgraham: btw how we get the github remote w-p-t repo "resources" submodule updated to the latest upstream testharness.js?
# [13:40] <jgraham> Thanks
# [13:41] <MikeSmith> to include, e.g., the change from foolip_ that removed the media/ subdir
# [13:41] <jgraham> MikeSmith: cd resources; git pull; cd ..; git add resources; git commit -m "Update to latest testharness.js"; git push
# [13:41] <jgraham> Or something
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# [13:41] <MikeSmith> ok
# [13:42] <MikeSmith> so I'll go ahead and push that, thanks
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# [13:46] <odinho> It's probably detached HEAD, so you ofc need to make sure you are standing on the correct commit (e.g. by checkout out origin/master)
# [13:46] <jgraham> Oh, that could be the case yeah
# [13:48] <MikeSmith> indeed yeah
# [13:48] <MikeSmith> had to checkout master first
# [13:48] <MikeSmith> anyway, done now
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# [13:50] <odinho> (working daily with submodules at Opera, watching new people screw up the the same things many times, has some benefits :) )
# [13:52] * jgraham takes responsibility for suggesting using git pull rather than git fetch
# [13:52] <odinho> :]
# [13:52] <odinho> (if suggesting git pull, I always write as git pull --ff-only)
# [13:52] <Ms2ger> Boo, submodules
# [13:52] <MikeSmith> I just use "git pull -r" any time I see "git pull"
# [13:53] <MikeSmith> except for critic review branches
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# [13:53] <Ms2ger> I just use a pull.sh I wrote a long time ago
# [13:53] <MikeSmith> yeah crazy assed submodule voodoo
# [13:55] <MikeSmith> anyway I don't like merge
# [13:56] <MikeSmith> if a rebase messes up I just get an error message and then after that I run rebase --abort
# [13:57] <MikeSmith> I don't know of any merge --abort and even if there was one I won't use it because why would you since you can always just use rebase
# [13:58] <MikeSmith> hmm odinho is there some config setting that will cause "--ff-only" to always be used with merge?
# [13:59] <MikeSmith> nm
# [13:59] * MikeSmith finds ff = no
# [13:59] <odinho> :)
# [14:00] <davve`> But you want 'git config merge.ff only', right?
# [14:01] <MikeSmith> davve`: yeah
# [14:01] <MikeSmith> --global
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# [14:02] <MikeSmith> fking git
# [14:02] <MikeSmith> they need to make this stuff way more complicated
# [14:02] <MikeSmith> it's all just too clear and easy right now
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# [14:04] <jgraham> MikeSmith: It might be worse. It might be mercurial.
# [14:04] <jgraham> :)
# [14:05] * Ms2ger whacks jgraham
# [14:07] <jgraham> Yes, trying to use bookmarks makes me want to resort to violence too
# [14:07] <MikeSmith> jgraham: Ms2ger is whacking you so that you'll sustain a head injury so that your IQ will decrease and you'll then become a mercurial advocate
# [14:07] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, I'd better not try to decrease yours any further ;)
# [14:08] <MikeSmith> hehah
# [14:08] <MikeSmith> that's probably not possible
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# [14:08] <Ms2ger> Well, you never know
# [14:09] <Ms2ger> Might hit an underflow :)
# [14:09] <MikeSmith> hah
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# [14:16] <hsivonen> mathiasbynens: I sent some feedback.
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# [15:49] <mathiasbynens> hsivonen: much appreciated
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# [16:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK with you if I go ahead and change vnu build.py to pull from github instead of bitbucket? (after syncing up the github repos to the latest bitbucket sources)
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# [16:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: OK.
# [16:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks
# [16:12] <MikeSmith> how about jing-trang? I have a mirror of that at github too already. OK to use that? (so we can eliminate the svn dependency) Or would you rather we keep pulling from the upstream svn repo for that?
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# [16:16] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: ↑
# [16:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: let's pull from github
# [16:19] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: what happens with the htmlparser repo?
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# [16:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I have a github mirror of that too
# [16:21] <MikeSmith> and I'll just manually update that by pulling from the mozilla hg repo
# [16:21] <MikeSmith> and pushing to the github repo
# [16:21] <MikeSmith> whenever there are changes
# [16:21] <MikeSmith> if that's OK for you
# [16:22] <MikeSmith> alternatively we can keep pulling from the upstream hg repo directly fo that
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# [17:34] <Ms2ger> Postel tarpit (n.) - A system that has tried so hard to accept all possible input that any change becomes backwards-incompatible
# [17:35] <Ms2ger> Aka "the Web"
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# [19:01] <SimonSapin> MikeSmith: http://dev.w3.org/csswg seems stuck in January
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# [19:01] <jgraham> The CSS WG are now officially stuck in the past?
# [19:03] <SimonSapin> well, https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/ is fine
# [19:03] <ltilve> hi
# [19:03] <ltilve> I have been doing a patch related with <select> elements not dispatching input events
# [19:03] <ltilve> http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=349472
# [19:04] <Ms2ger> SimonSapin, I saw something come by about that breaking due to dns changes
# [19:05] <ltilve> I guess that the comments here https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22467 are still valid, aren't they?
# [19:06] <ltilve> (I ended at the link to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#the-change from the equivalent WK bug https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117526)
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# [19:09] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: it's probably related to the fact I moved the rewrite for http://dev.w3.org/csswg to a different host today
# [19:09] <Ms2ger> ltilve, whoa whoa whoa
# [19:09] <Ms2ger> ltilve, please scroll to the top of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#the-change
# [19:10] <SimonSapin> MikeSmith: is the mercurial push hook still syncing to the old host?
# [19:10] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: is contents of http://dev.w3.org/csswg same as http://128.30.54.131/csswg/ ?
# [19:10] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: maybe
# [19:10] <MikeSmith> dunno
# [19:10] <MikeSmith> I'll look
# [19:11] <Ms2ger> ltilve, and if you want a serious answer to a bug, you should file it in the whatwg component, not the html wg one
# [19:11] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: but frankly I really rather not have to keep dealing with this rewrite
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# [19:12] <Ms2ger> Hixie, can you make the banner on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#the-change position:fixed?
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# [19:14] <SimonSapin> MikeSmith: they’re not the same for me, http://128.30.54.131/csswg/ is fine
# [19:14] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: yeah it seems I have to re-setup some useless crap on the new host just for the csswg case
# [19:14] <MikeSmith> this is nuts really
# [19:15] <SimonSapin> Is 128.30.54.131 the old host?
# [19:15] <MikeSmith> yeah
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# [19:16] <SimonSapin> how do other things work?
# [19:16] <MikeSmith> I want Peter to figure out some alternative that doesn't involve me
# [19:16] <MikeSmith> other things work by not using mercurial
# [19:16] <MikeSmith> and by not rewriting URLs from dev.w3.org to w3c-test.org
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# [19:17] <ltilve> thanks Ms2ger, I hadn't scrolled top :p
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# [19:17] <Ms2ger> ltilve, it's clearly not huge enough :)
# [19:17] <ltilve> "anchors happen"
# [19:18] <paxcoder> hola
# [19:18] <ltilve> it was big indeed :)
# [19:18] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: I'll e-mail Peter. I have zero enthusiasm for spending any more time dealing with this than the hours I've wasted on it already in the past at his request
# [19:19] <MikeSmith> you guys really need to find something sane
# [19:20] <MikeSmith> instead of this convoluted way
# [19:20] <MikeSmith> it's all totally unnecessary, this stuff that Peter has set up
# [19:21] <MikeSmith> or rather that Peter talked me through setting up for him
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# [19:21] <MikeSmith> "Make sure to cut the *green* wire, not the red one"
# [19:22] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Obviously the whole page should be display:none except that warning until you click a button marked "I am only reading this out of historical interest and will not use the document for any purpose related to implementing web browsers or authoring web content"
# [19:22] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: sorry I broke it but http://128.30.54.131/csswg/ should have the latest until I can figure out something else
# [19:22] <Ms2ger> jgraham, can I leave the warning out?
# [19:24] <SimonSapin> thanks MikeSmith. Apparently Peter’s plan is to have dev.csswg.org/csswg proxy to drafts.csswg.org. Does that sound more sane?
# [19:24] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: yes
# [19:24] <MikeSmith> please
# [19:25] <MikeSmith> he can make that change himself at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/.htaccess?rev=1.21
# [19:25] <MikeSmith> as far as I know
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# [19:34] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: OK I just e-mailed Peter about it directly as well
# [19:35] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: again, sorry
# [19:35] <SimonSapin> no problem, thanks
# [19:35] <MikeSmith> SimonSapin: thanks for the heads-up about it and sorry for ranting
# [19:36] <SimonSapin> to be fair the little I know about the old setup does sound, hum, hairy
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# [20:17] <Hixie> Ms2ger: done
# [20:17] <Hixie> does any browser support 'filter: grayscale()' yet? i want to desaturate the images at the same time
# [20:18] <Hixie> but i can't work out how to do it short of lots of prefixed properties and some svg
# [20:18] <Hixie> which seems a bit excessive
# [20:18] <Ms2ger> Thanks
# [20:19] <jgraham> Hixie: The text doesn't seem to be gray anymore
# [20:19] <Hixie> oops
# [20:19] <Hixie> try again
# [20:20] <Hixie> (what browser?)
# [20:20] <krit_> MikeSmith: the link to CSS Compositing is broken http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/compositing-1/
# [20:20] <jgraham> Hixie: Firefox
# [20:20] <krit_> MikeSmith: gives me {"error": {"message": "", "code": 404}}
# [20:20] <jgraham> Hixie: Now the warning is gray :)
# [20:21] <Hixie> already fixed that
# [20:21] <Ms2ger> krit_, you should join #css on w3 :)
# [20:21] <Hixie> i was a bit overzealous with my filters
# [20:21] <Hixie> (the text not being gray was because firefox supports scoped="", nice!)
# [20:22] <krit_> Ms2ger: just searched a channel with MikeSmith. This was the first I found :P
# [20:22] <jgraham> Hixie: Works now
# [20:22] <Ms2ger> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css2/ is rumoured to work
# [20:22] * SamB thought filters WERE an SVG thing
# [20:23] <Ms2ger> Only took 15 years
# [20:23] <krit_> Ms2ger: that is a different repository, but the FX rep works in general as well
# [20:23] * SamB wonders how crazy allowing SVG filters on everything would be ...
# [20:23] <krit_> SamB: we are just that crazy and do that!
# [20:23] <SamB> (without actually having to use that foreignOjbect thing)
# [20:23] <krit_> SamB: you can try kind of in WebKit/Blink and soon in Firefox
# [20:24] <krit_> SamB: sorry, it works in Firefox, the filter functions will work in FF soon
# [20:24] <SamB> it certainly seems a lot less crazy than NIHing a filter language of similar expressiveness in CSS, yes
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# [20:27] <SamB> hmm, I probably asked about this before, but where is the "shadow DOM" idea from XBL being worked on? MDN is still linking to a long-abandoned "XBL 2" effort ...
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# [20:32] <Hixie> ok i've gone and added the same position:fixed warning and gray styling to all the snapshots of wf2 and wa1/html5 that we have
# [20:32] <TabAtkins> Ooooh, grayscaling obsolete stuff sounds awesome.
# [20:32] * TabAtkins goes to update Bikeshed's obsoleting styles.
# [20:32] <MikeSmith> krit_: talk to fantasai or Peter or Bert
# [20:33] * SamB wonders how hard Sepia would be
# [20:33] <Domenic_> Hixie: sample link, out of curiosity?
# [20:33] <krit_> SamB: filter: sepia(0.5)
# [20:33] <MikeSmith> krit_: fantasi updated the dev.w3.org/csswg rewrite to point to http://drafts.csswg.org
# [20:33] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/.htaccess?rev=1.23
# [20:33] <SamB> krit_: okay now that is just cheating
# [20:34] <Hixie> Domenic_: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2009-10-27/multipage/content-models.html#interactive-content-0 or http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/2005-09-01/
# [20:34] <MikeSmith> krit_: so if
# [20:34] <Domenic_> Hixie: nice
# [20:34] <krit_> MikeSmith: hm, the FX repository is not maintained by you anymore?
# [20:34] * SamB was expecting the need for, like, color('sepia')*monochrome or so ...
# [20:35] <Hixie> this is some svg filter i found on stackoverflow, mostly
# [20:35] <Hixie> seems css filters are still not quite there
# [20:35] <MikeSmith> krit_: ah FX. fantasai needs to update the rewrite for that one too I guess
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# [20:36] <krit_> Hixie: well, if you use filters, you should use -webkit-filter: grayscale() for webkit/blink and filter: url(#svgFilter) for Firefox... no way to filter HTML elements in IE
# [20:36] <MikeSmith> krit_: and no I have nothing to do with the FX repo or any of this tuff any more. I have exited the business
# [20:36] <krit_> Hixie: for performance reason mainly
# [20:36] <Hixie> krit_: right, like i said, css filters aren't really there yet :-)
# [20:37] <Hixie> krit_: i mean, what i _want_ is "filter: grayscale and sepia" or something
# [20:37] <krit_> Hixie: got you
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# [20:38] <SimonSapin> ".obsolete { border: double thick red ! important;" that should be in ALL CAPS, to give it more weight
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# [20:39] <Hixie> heh
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# [20:39] <Hixie> wtf, the 'filter' property affects the z-index?
# [20:39] <Hixie> what kind of crap is this
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# [20:40] <Domenic_> everything affects z-index
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# [20:40] <Domenic_> z-index is a landmine waiting to destroy you and eat your soul
# [20:40] * Hixie adds some z-index values to the position:fixed element
# [20:40] <Domenic_> (by "everything" i mean "random features")
# [20:42] <SamB> okay I am confused by this bullet in the FAQ: "* Bug fixing: when bugs are found in the spec or implementations, they have to be maintained"
# [20:42] <SamB> if this is actually talking about maintaining the bugs themselves, then I think that needs more explanation of the reason for it
# [20:43] <SamB> otherwise, I could probably reword it for you ...
# [20:43] <Ms2ger> they = the spec or implementations
# [20:43] <Hixie> source?
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# [20:44] <SamB> oh, I guess they = features
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# [20:45] * SamB grumbles about the missing "copy link to this anchor" command in browsers ...
# [20:45] <Hixie> oh, from the faq
# [20:45] <SamB> Hixie: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Where.27s_the_harm_in_adding.E2.80.94
# [20:46] <Hixie> updated
# [20:49] <Philip`_> jgraham: It is
# [20:50] <Ms2ger> Philip`_, where?
# [20:50] <Philip`_> Ms2ger: That's a harder question :-(
# [20:51] <Philip`_> jgraham: I think http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/svn/tokeniser/ may be the latest version
# [20:52] <Philip`_> ("latest" being over 5 years ago)
# [20:54] <SamB> hmm, it never occurred to me to wonder how the w3c got w3.org before ...
# [20:55] <SamB> but I just typed "www.3.org" and now I do
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# [20:56] <Hixie> as opposed to what?
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# [20:59] <SamB> I guess they got in before there were rules and/or squatters
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# [21:06] <Domenic_> I am making an argument to corporate peoples that ASCII is not enough for names. Any reasonably-famous people I can cite with non-ASCII characters in their names? /cc mathiasbynens
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# [21:06] <Ms2ger> Er...
# [21:06] <Ms2ger> All of China?
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# [21:07] <Domenic_> that helps i suppose.
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# [21:09] <SimonSapin> Domenic_: famous to whom?
# [21:09] <Domenic_> SimonSapin: either "everybody" or "developers" sounds good.
# [21:10] <Hixie> Domenic_: Влади́мир Пу́тин is pretty famous
# [21:10] <SimonSapin> http://people.opera.com/howcome/ maybe?
# [21:10] <Hixie> Domenic_: 毛泽东 was also pretty famous
# [21:11] <Domenic_> SimonSapin: yup that was my first example actually :)
# [21:11] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [21:11] <Domenic_> Hixie: yeah, but I kind of feel like their argument would be "he should just type Mao Zedong"
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# [21:12] <Hixie> Ἰησοῦς, also known as ישוע, is also pretty famous
# [21:12] <Domenic_> heh
# [21:12] <Hixie> Domenic_: well, if people are willing to just randomly rename people for the sake of their database, you're not going to convince them...
# [21:13] <Ms2ger> Domenic_, what's next, won't allow numbers in names?
# [21:13] <Domenic_> Ms2ger: somewhat ironically, the current regex is: ^[-A-Za-z0-9.,' ]{0,64}$
# [21:15] <Hixie> and the artist formerly known as "the artist formerly known as Prince" used to have a name that even Unicode can't describe
# [21:15] <Hixie> afk, lunch
# [21:15] <SimonSapin> Domenic_: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/ sounds relevant
# [21:15] <Domenic_> SimonSapin: yup, was going to close with that...
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# [21:18] <SimonSapin> although not to take it too seriously
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# [21:18] <SimonSapin> restricting names handled in software to all of Unicode sounds reasonable
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# [21:47] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: Fucking most of Europe?
# [21:47] <TabAtkins> áéóåöç etc
# [21:48] <TabAtkins> Not to mention things like the Turkish i situation.
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# Session Close: Wed Mar 05 22:06:10 2014
#
# Session Start: Wed Mar 05 22:06:10 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [22:06] * Disconnected
# [22:07] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
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# [22:07] * Topic is 'WHATWG: http://www.whatwg.org/ -- logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ -- stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [22:07] * Set by smaug____!~chatzilla@GGZYYCCCXVIII.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi on Wed Mar 21 17:14:24
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# [22:12] <mathiasbynens> Domenic_: https://jonaswesterlund.se/invalid-form-validation.html may also be of reference
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# [22:17] <mathiasbynens> Domenic_: more ‘famous’ (to us) people with non-ASCII names: Geir Ivarsøy, Faruk Ateş, Юрий Зайцев (aka. kangax), Cãtãlin Mariş, etc.
# [22:17] <Domenic_> mathiasbynens: good stuff, thanks
# [22:17] <TabAtkins> Tantek Çelik
# [22:17] <mathiasbynens> Domenic_: fun fact: Sindre Sørhus changed his name to Sindre Sorhus because of this
# [22:17] <Ms2ger> Eh, tantek :)
# [22:17] <TabAtkins> (And that i is a turkish lowercase dotted i, not an ASCII dotted i.)
# [22:18] <Domenic_> mathiasbynens: oh wow did not know
# [22:18] <mathiasbynens> like, legally. pretty sad story
# [22:18] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: oh wow, he must have a bad time with that i.
# [22:18] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: Heh, yeah. I suppose most people with Turkish names learn to live with it.
# [22:19] <TabAtkins> And accept that, when uppercased, their name will look wrong.
# [22:19] <Hixie> the turkish lowercase dotted i actualy is the ASCII dotted i
# [22:19] <TabAtkins> As it's actually written in HTML when he does so, it's a turkish undotted i with a combining dot.
# [22:19] <Hixie> it's just that the ASCII dotted i has different capitalisation rules (and the I different lowercasing rules) in the turkish locale.
# [22:19] <TabAtkins> So it uppercases correctly.
# [22:19] <Hixie> yeah, but that's a hack
# [22:20] <TabAtkins> A hack that actually works, though.
# [22:20] <Hixie> the character is correctly the ASCII "i".
# [22:20] <Hixie> it's a good example of why this stuff is hard, though :-)
# [22:20] <TabAtkins> I cant' understand how the Turkish i's got folded into ASCII when so many other scripts have identical letters separated.
# [22:20] <TabAtkins> Yay Unicode.
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# [22:20] <Hixie> yeah, beats me
# [22:21] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, hey, cjk ;)
# [22:21] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
# [22:21] <Hixie> that too
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# [22:31] <jgraham> Interestingly I noticed that in the winter olympics, all the on-screen information was ascii-only even though that clearly wasn't sufficient
# [22:32] <jgraham> So they did things like transliterate Swedish ö to o
# [22:32] <jgraham> Which is just wrong
# [22:34] <jgraham> Philip`: Thanks
# [22:34] <Hixie> anyone know what http://zzyzwicz.w3.org/resources.whatwg.org/ is about?
# [22:34] <gsnedders> jgraham: I presume they just had a generic codepoint to ASCII codepoint mapping.
# [22:35] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well it's hard to know what they did
# [22:35] <jgraham> I think it's somewhat reasonable that British people wouldn't deal with non-latin characters
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# [22:35] <Ms2ger> Hixie, I think someone scraping w3c-test?
# [22:36] <Ms2ger> Oh, w3.org
# [22:36] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith?
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# [22:38] <Hixie> anyone here know anything about ruders.org?
# [22:39] <gsnedders> jgraham: Okay, so it was a Vizrt system (somewhat unsurprisingly, they're who everyone use for OSD), and they're based in Bergen, so I'd be surprised if it was really ASCII-only
# [22:40] <jgraham> gsnedders: The backend might not have been
# [22:40] <jgraham> But I'm prety sure what we saw was
# [22:40] <gsnedders> Yeah, indeed. But the OSD certainly should've supported it.
# [22:41] <gsnedders> Where the data was coming from is a separate matter again.
# [22:41] <gsnedders> As is data entry.
# [22:41] * tantek scrolls up
# [22:41] <gsnedders> I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was in data entry where it all went wrong :)
# [22:41] <jgraham> I think it was probably intentional
# [22:41] <jgraham> I don't know *why*
# [22:42] <tantek> Hixie is correct about the dotted lowercase i
# [22:42] * tantek goes back to #ab in irc.w3.org
# [22:43] <gsnedders> is dotted lowercase i in NFC?
# [22:43] <TabAtkins> Man, turning ö to o is just *super* wrong. The accepted ASCII mapping is to "oe".
# [22:43] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: For some languages.
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# [22:43] <TabAtkins> Hm, I guess so. Definitely for german.
# [22:43] <jgraham> I guess it could have been to oe, but that's just as wrong for Swedish
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# [22:43] <TabAtkins> and I think Björn is Nordic?
# [22:44] <jgraham> Yeah, in German it seems to be acceptable to replace umlauts with es
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# [22:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, it's how you do it *if you have to do it*.
# [22:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: So in a sense it's /less/ wrong
# [22:45] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: But in French you certainly just drop the diacritic
# [22:46] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure I remember foolip saying that he wouldn't transliterate ä to ae
# [22:47] <jgraham> (but I might be wrong)
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# [22:50] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Yeah, I know about dropping the diacritic when it's just a grave accent.
# [22:51] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: It applies for all diacritics in French, not just graves.
# [22:52] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
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# [22:52] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that makes sense, François to Francois, etc.
# [22:52] <gsnedders> Again, locale dependent.
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# [22:53] <gsnedders> jgraham: Certainly å to aa is relatively common, though far more recent addition to alphabet.
# [22:54] <gsnedders> (Which is kinda odd. Seems to have gone from á -> aa -> å)
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# [22:56] <TabAtkins> I thought å went to "ow".
# [22:57] <gsnedders> It's a long a
# [22:57] <gsnedders> (acute is used in Old Norse as a length marker, hence á)
# [22:58] <gsnedders> There again, I find it horrific placing vowels in the vowel space. :)
# [22:58] <TabAtkins> Then explain "howcome", smarty-pants.
# [22:58] <TabAtkins> ^_^
# [22:58] * TabAtkins is aware of what it sounds like, and how "howcome" is a joke.
# [22:59] <gsnedders> It's amusingly close, though :)
# [23:00] <gsnedders> Esp. giving linking phenomena softening the "ow"
# [23:00] <gsnedders> Oh god, I just looking up all the various terms for various phonetic linking phenomena.
# [23:01] * gsnedders goes back to avoiding phonetics
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# [23:08] <Hixie> (i dunno about hte languages y'all are talking about, but in norwegian, the letters with diacritics are actually just different letters, so replacing them with other letters wouldn't make sense, as i understand it)
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# [23:11] <jgraham> Hixie: Yeah, Swedish is the same
# [23:11] <jgraham> German less so aiui
# [23:11] <Hixie> yeah
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# [23:12] <SimonSapin> Dropping accents in French is not uncommon, but still wrong
# [23:12] <SimonSapin> it can be ambiguous
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# [23:15] <Hixie> MikeSmith: you around?
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# Session Close: Thu Mar 06 00:00:00 2014

The end :)