/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-03-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Mar 20 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: I don't think I have a strong opinion. It makes sense to have *some* tests for html5lib itself
  12. # [00:06] <jgraham> I'm not sure that they are worth sharing with other projects though
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  18. # [00:12] <SimonSapin> SamB: 6919
  19. # [00:13] <SimonSapin> jgraham: could you test round-tripping rather than exact serializations?
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  23. # [00:17] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Yes, though obviously some tests must test exact serializations
  24. # [00:17] <Hixie> does anyone here know anything about MSE?
  25. # [00:17] <Hixie> (https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html)
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  27. # [00:18] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Also note not everything round-trips
  28. # [00:18] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: why, and why?
  29. # [00:19] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: e.g., We need to make sure serialization of attribute values doesn't expose XSS bugs in old IE
  30. # [00:19] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: and e.g., (XML) <table><tr><td>foo
  31. # [00:19] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: (a tree with no tbody)
  32. # [00:20] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: but parse+serialize+parse should still be the same as parse, right?
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  34. # [00:21] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: No. Well, there is obviously *a* serialization, but some parse errors create odd trees.
  35. # [00:21] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Like foster parenting can cause odd things
  36. # [00:21] <SimonSapin> isn’t serialize+parse idempotent?
  37. # [00:21] <SimonSapin> (*not* parse+serialize)
  38. # [00:22] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Given parse+serialize+parse, "<p><table><p>" is hard to handle.
  39. # [00:22] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Because it's serialization isn't at all obvious from the tree it produces.
  40. # [00:22] <gsnedders> *its
  41. # [00:22] <SimonSapin> I don’t see the problem
  42. # [00:23] <gsnedders> At the moment we only try to serialize trees that a conforming input can create. i.e., not ones like that
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  44. # [00:23] <SamB> hmm, you would certainly think that given a just-parsed document, serialize|parse would be idempotent
  45. # [00:23] <SimonSapin> SamB: yes, that’s what I mean
  46. # [00:23] <SimonSapin> is that not the case for HTML?
  47. # [00:23] <gsnedders> It is.
  48. # [00:23] <gsnedders> It's just the serialize case gets exceptionally hard if you want to make it complete.
  49. # [00:24] <gsnedders> Like, for <p><table><p> you have to go from an XML infoset like <p><p/><table/></p> to having the second p appear within the table.
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  51. # [00:25] <gsnedders> Because you can't serialize that tree as <p><p><table></table></p></p> in HTML.
  52. # [00:25] <SimonSapin> gsnedders: do you mean that only testing idempotency it not that useful because you can make a serializer that’s idempotent bug wrong? (e.g always return the empty string)
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  54. # [00:25] <SamB> SimonSapin: that wouldn't make serialize|parse idempotent
  55. # [00:25] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: No, I mean it's impractically hard to do.
  56. # [00:26] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: Because a serializer that's idempotent is really complex to handle cases like (XML) <p><p/><table/></p>
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  59. # [00:26] <gsnedders> SimonSapin: I played about with taking all parser tests and checking serializerparser
  60. # [00:27] <SamB> so what was the goal again?
  61. # [00:27] <gsnedders> The goal is to improve the current testing situation of html5lib's serializer. Which current relies on shared tests in html5lib-tests dependent upon serialization choice.
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  68. # [00:36] <gsnedders> https://gist.github.com/gsnedders/9653913 is what currently fails to roundtrip with html5lib. Some (e.g., the script stuff) are obviously bugs.
  69. # [00:36] <gsnedders> <p><b><i><u></p>\n<p>X is gonna be very hard to serialize correctly
  70. # [00:36] <Hixie> why?
  71. # [00:39] <gsnedders> Well, "<p><b><i><u></u></i></b></p><b><i><u>\n<p>X</u></i></b>" doesn't correspond to the same thing, despite being the obvious serialization of the tree
  72. # [00:40] <gsnedders> Or rather, the logic for when you omit the p closing tag is complicated.
  73. # [00:40] <Hixie> oh
  74. # [00:40] <gsnedders> Okay, maybe that isn't as bad.
  75. # [00:40] <Hixie> i would just never omit closing tags
  76. # [00:40] <Hixie> :-D
  77. # [00:40] <gsnedders> I thought that was the weird case where AAA stuff made it horrible.
  78. # [00:40] <gsnedders> idk.
  79. # [00:40] <gsnedders> I don't have time for this.
  80. # [00:40] <gsnedders> :)
  81. # [00:40] <gsnedders> This isn't my dissertation. :)
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  84. # [00:43] <gsnedders> Hixie: Though that does mean the informative description of when p end tags can be omitted in the spec is wrong :)
  85. # [00:44] <gsnedders> Or is Writing HTML Documents normative?
  86. # [00:44] <gsnedders> It appears to be normative for documents, authoring tools, and markup generators.
  87. # [00:44] <gsnedders> In which case the normative description is wrong :)
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  93. # [00:54] <Hixie> gsnedders: it's not wrong. it just doesn't handle non-conforming cases since those cases are already non-conforming.
  94. # [00:55] <Hixie> gsnedders: if a tool outputs <b><p> then it's bogus regardless of where it closes the </b>
  95. # [00:55] <gsnedders> Bah!
  96. # [00:55] <Hixie> i'm just sayin'
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  98. # [00:55] <gsnedders> See, this is what makes serialize|parse idempotency hard!
  99. # [00:56] <gsnedders> Like, sure, yeah, obviously any tree the parser creates *can* be serialized.
  100. # [00:56] <Hixie> should just reguse to serialise anything that's non-conforming
  101. # [00:56] <Hixie> refuse
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  103. # [00:56] <gsnedders> To what degree on non-conformity?
  104. # [00:56] <gsnedders> *of
  105. # [00:56] <Hixie> human-checked!
  106. # [00:56] <Hixie> :-D
  107. # [00:56] <gsnedders> :)
  108. # [00:57] <gsnedders> Do we allow unknown elements? Because their parse-model could change!
  109. # [00:57] <Hixie> (or, document your tool as requiring conforming input, and if it's given non-conforming input, say that the output could be garbage.)
  110. # [00:57] <gsnedders> Yeah, that's the sensible approach. :)
  111. # [00:58] <gsnedders> I originally did this just because I wanted to see how hard it'd be to guarantee serializer||parser idempotency given a tree from the parser. Because if it was easy then we could trivially get way more tests. :)
  112. # [00:58] <gsnedders> There's no schema representing all the content model restrictions, is there?
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  114. # [01:04] <Domenic_> heycam|away: ping https://github.com/w3ctag/promises-guide/issues/15#issuecomment-37483172
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  138. # [01:56] <heycam> Domenic_, will reply today
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  148. # [02:18] <SamB> does anything actually use meta description anymore?
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  151. # [02:21] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it's used by Google for the site description, if there's no better signals.
  152. # [02:21] <SamB> you mean the blurb in the results?
  153. # [02:21] <SamB> or actual search matching?
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  165. # [02:48] <gsnedders> I'd presume it's used for search matching if it's used as the blurb
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  171. # [03:01] <TabAtkins> The blurb.
  172. # [03:01] <TabAtkins> I think it does indeed contribute to search matching, as well, but I have no real insight into that.
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  287. # [08:45] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: hmm now i need to look into making that up to date again
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  293. # [09:22] <zcorpan> annevk: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/924
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  296. # [09:29] <zcorpan> jgraham: does things get confused if a reftest includes testharness.js?
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  300. # [09:35] <zcorpan> how do reftests work, when is the screenshot snapped? onload? xhr doesn't delay onload, does it? is there a way to delay the snapshot? (this is on web-platform-tests)
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  302. # [09:36] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: jgraham: ^
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  326. # [10:34] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, I know Gecko has something... class=reftest-wait on the root?
  327. # [10:35] <Ms2ger> Not sure if wpt has something
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  332. # [10:44] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yes, they get confused if you include testharness.js
  333. # [10:44] <zcorpan> jgraham: ok
  334. # [10:44] <jgraham> At least in an obvious way
  335. # [10:45] <jgraham> If you really need it in some way you can include it at runtime
  336. # [10:45] <jgraham> We don
  337. # [10:45] <jgraham> 't have a reftest-wait equivalent at the moment
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  339. # [10:46] <jgraham> But we probably need one (unless we can convince all browsers to implement something like Presto
  340. # [10:46] <jgraham> had to determine when the event queue was empty)
  341. # [10:47] <jgraham> (which we can't)
  342. # [10:47] <zcorpan> yeah personally i prefer a class on the root
  343. # [10:51] <zcorpan> jgraham: "This pipe can also be enabled by using a filename *.sub.ext, e.g. the file above could be called xhr.sub.js." does that sound good to add to pipes.rst ?
  344. # [10:51] <jgraham> Well despite my skepticism the Presto solution worked rather well
  345. # [10:52] <jgraham> But it isn't at all portable
  346. # [10:52] <jgraham> zcorpan: Yeah
  347. # [10:53] <zcorpan> jgraham: ok then i'll commit it. i thought i was going to be given a "create PR" button but it was "commit changes" so...
  348. # [10:53] <zcorpan> maybe i should create a new github user that is not an owner of anything
  349. # [10:53] <zcorpan> or whine to github to give me two buttons
  350. # [10:58] <zcorpan> wonder where to file a bug about github
  351. # [10:58] <annevk> zcorpan: somewhere in https://github.com/github/ I suspect
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  353. # [11:02] <zcorpan> annevk: thanks... so which repo? :-P
  354. # [11:03] <annevk> zcorpan: "somewhere" :-P
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  357. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> annevk: I still got a couple open PRs for changes to URL tests
  358. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> one's pretty easy https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/768
  359. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/3a6bf6d2023053ad42c6a02c80ea4b1313becfaa
  360. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> the other one is just a port of more webkit URL tests https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/771
  361. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> for host canonicalization
  362. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> by way of smola
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  364. # [11:06] <annevk> MikeSmith: looks good, be aware that some of this may change
  365. # [11:06] <annevk> but I guess it's better to have tests to compare the changes against than nothing at all
  366. # [11:07] <annevk> MikeSmith: reviewed through critic
  367. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> thanks
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  372. # [11:07] <zcorpan> annevk: i used the contact form instead
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  396. # [12:26] <mathiasbynens> zcorpan: support@github.com or contact form is The Right Way™
  397. # [12:26] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: excellent
  398. # [12:27] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: i got a gold star so maybe i did something right
  399. # [12:28] <zcorpan> i guess "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU U SUCK" was less than 140 chars
  400. # [12:30] <annevk> We should offer such stars to Kyle Simpson on the mailing list
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  404. # [12:48] <jgraham> But with "Less than 140 thousand words"?
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  416. # [13:34] <zcorpan> are wpt PRs still mirrored on w3c-test.org somewhere?
  417. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah
  418. # [13:36] <jgraham> Yeah, under submissions/
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  420. # [13:36] <zcorpan> ah there, thx
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  459. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> about exceptions, I see the label "Legacy code exception field value" used in the DOM spec, can I assume that I shouldn't use those in current code?
  460. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> I mean http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#error-names-0
  461. # [14:36] <MikeSmith> so I should use SyntaxError instead of SYNTAX_ERR
  462. # [14:37] <jgraham> Yeah
  463. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> this is in the context of what I should use with assert_throws
  464. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> jgraham: OK
  465. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> is there somewhere this it more explicitly stated?
  466. # [14:38] <MikeSmith> I mean where it's stated that the name should be used rather than the "Legacy code exception field value"
  467. # [14:40] <Ms2ger> It may be in the th.js docs?
  468. # [14:41] <MikeSmith> ok
  469. # [14:41] * MikeSmith reads
  470. # [14:42] <MikeSmith> the thrown exception must be a DOMException with the given * name, e.g., "TimeoutError" (for compatibility with existing * tests, a constant is also supported, e.g., "TIMEOUT_ERR")
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  549. # [17:17] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  589. # [18:09] <Hixie> annevk: is there a way to get tracker to show more lines on its home page?
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  591. # [18:10] <annevk> Hixie: ?limit=
  592. # [18:10] <Hixie> thanks
  593. # [18:10] <annevk> Hixie: use -1 with caution ;-)
  594. # [18:11] <Hixie> oh i misunderstood what it did and set it to 7000 :-)
  595. # [18:12] <Hixie> in other news, anyone got a good example of a simple table i could add to the spec that demonstrates sortable=""?
  596. # [18:12] <Hixie> i need some data that has maybe six lines with multiple numeric columns that aren't all in order and aren't all the same
  597. # [18:14] <annevk> Hixie: http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/09/tmb-overview
  598. # [18:14] <annevk> although that's not a great example
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  631. # [18:59] <marcosc> Domenic_: WebIDL says "When a specification says to perform some steps once a promise is settled, the following steps MUST be followed:"
  632. # [18:59] <marcosc> however, the promises guide doesn't speak of "settling a promise"
  633. # [19:00] <Domenic_> marcosc: yeah, WebIDL kind of swooped in and started incorporating some of the stuff I envisioned the promises guide doing
  634. # [19:00] <Domenic_> promises guide's "upon fulfillment"/"upon rejection" <-> WebIDL's "once a promise is settled"
  635. # [19:01] <marcosc> :(
  636. # [19:01] <marcosc> the WebIDL is really impenetrable with regards to Promises :(
  637. # [19:02] <marcosc> Domenic_: not blaming you, obviously
  638. # [19:02] * Ms2ger blames marcosc
  639. # [19:02] <marcosc> I also often blame myself
  640. # [19:03] <marcosc> if only I had not been dropped so much as a baby...
  641. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> You'd blame yourself a lot more?
  642. # [19:04] <marcosc> probably... it's like in one of those TV shows where someone gets hit on the head and they suddenly become much smarter
  643. # [19:04] <marcosc> go on, Ms2ger, try it!
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  678. # [20:42] <Domenic_> sicking: glad someone said what i was thinking about push apis
  679. # [20:42] <sicking> Domenic_: :)
  680. # [20:43] <sicking> Domenic_: actually, glad you pinged. I talked to our perf guys yesterday about IO perf
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  682. # [20:44] <sicking> Domenic_: His first reaction was "Use node.js streams, those guys understood perf".
  683. # [20:44] <Domenic_> hah! :D
  684. # [20:44] <Domenic_> that is basically what we are doing
  685. # [20:44] <sicking> Domenic_: though he was actually a bit sceptical to the whole idea of using streams to do disk IO
  686. # [20:44] <Domenic_> interestingly i think node streams are just starting to deal with the out-of-main-thread idea
  687. # [20:45] <Domenic_> or at least not-pass-through-the-C++/JS-barrier, which might be equivalent
  688. # [20:45] <Domenic_> hmm i wonder why
  689. # [20:45] <sicking> his argument was that often time when people stream, rather than read the whole file and then process, was that the "read small chunks at a time" adds so much overhead that it's a net perf loss
  690. # [20:46] <sicking> i.e. he was saying that if you are reading a file that's in the order of < 50MB, then reading that in 1K chunks adds so much overhead to the individual read calls, that the read calls turns into a bottleneck
  691. # [20:47] <Domenic_> hmm. my impression from node people is that the threshold is much less than 50 MB.
  692. # [20:47] <sicking> this does seem to vary from OS to OS. OSX is particularly bad apparently
  693. # [20:47] <Domenic_> there's also issues like how long it takes to parse 1 MB of JSON vs. incremental work on 100 1K chunks of JSON
  694. # [20:47] <sicking> (though i would have thought that windows was worse, but we didn't spend too much time on it)
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  696. # [20:48] <sicking> right
  697. # [20:48] <sicking> though he was also saying that if you read in 32-64kB chunks this is less of an issue
  698. # [20:48] <Domenic_> well, yeah, optimal chunk size is up to the implementation
  699. # [20:49] <sicking> so it's possible that simply increasing the default chunk (is that right word?) size that would help a bunch
  700. # [20:49] <Domenic_> so it's up to each individual stream to decide how big the chunks they want to vend are
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  702. # [20:49] <Domenic_> so if browser/firefox OS streams want to vend 32 kB chunks, that is totally cool
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  704. # [20:49] <sicking> but if your files was large enough, then switching to something like a 2MB chunk size was needed for good perf
  705. # [20:50] <Domenic_> that works too
  706. # [20:50] <Domenic_> it's not part of the streams spec; the streams spec just says "here is how you queue up data; and here is how people can get data out of that queue"
  707. # [20:50] <Domenic_> but how big the data chunks are that you queue up is up to the individual stream
  708. # [20:50] <sicking> yeah, so maybe we can make the current API work
  709. # [20:51] <Domenic_> it'd make perfect sense for FS streams to be specified, either loosely to let implementations choose, or with some kind of algorithm like you're describing
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  711. # [20:51] <sicking> the other thing he was saying was that reusing chunks, rather than always allocating new ones, also makes a big difference perf-wise
  712. # [20:52] <Domenic_> hmm what does that mean...
  713. # [20:52] <Domenic_> (api-wise)
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  715. # [20:52] <sicking> arg, crap, gotta get food before next meeting
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  717. # [20:52] <sicking> i have two proposals for how that can be done, but i'll have to get back to you
  718. # [20:53] <Domenic_> sweet
  719. # [20:53] <sicking> i'm free after 4pm
  720. # [20:53] <sicking> pacific
  721. # [20:53] <sicking> what timezone are you in btw?
  722. # [20:53] <Domenic_> eastern. but tonight i gotta speak at a meetup
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  781. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> annevk-cloud: Can you do something about deprecating Selectors API 2, now that it's all been swallowed into DOM?
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  803. # [22:54] <jgraham> So it totally seems possible that authors will rely on the size of chunks that they get back from streams
  804. # [22:54] <jgraham> (assuming it's detectable by the author, which I guess it must be)
  805. # [22:54] <jgraham> So if it's implementation defined that seems like a problem
  806. # [22:55] <jgraham> Domenic_: ^
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  808. # [22:55] <Domenic_> jgraham: yeah, I agree it's a concern.
  809. # [22:56] <Domenic_> but then again, do authors depend on how much they get back from "streaming" XHR?
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  811. # [22:58] <jgraham> I'm not sure. Is that as "reliable" as this (in the sense that a single implementation is always likely to return data in the same sized blocks)?
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  813. # [22:58] <Domenic_> i'm not sure either.
  814. # [22:59] <Domenic_> although it sounds like it could vary here, even per-platform perhaps
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  816. # [22:59] <Domenic_> e.g. macs vs. pcs
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  818. # [22:59] <Domenic_> or big files vs. small files
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  821. # [23:02] <jgraham> I'm not sure that makes it better. If it was *always* different people probably wouldn't rely on it. But if people expected 1kB from testing on WebKit/Mac they might well get unexpected breakage if IE/Windows returned 1Mb. Or if they got 1kB consistently for small test data and suddenly got 64kB for larger files in production.
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  847. # [23:34] <zewt> jgraham: i seem to recall pointing out at some point that if we have a stream API, it should be based on requesting blocks of data with a given size and getting a callback when that amount is available, to ensure that block sizes of the implementation are never exposed
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  850. # [23:36] <zewt> can't recall where (not that it matters)
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  853. # [23:38] <zewt> seems like an obvious interop requirement though
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  855. # [23:42] <zewt> might have been talking about streaming out (eg. streaming JS to the browser), which is also a problem (exposing the number of bytes the implementation requests at a time, etc. could cause interop issues), but a different one
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  868. # Session Close: Fri Mar 21 00:00:00 2014

The end :)