/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-03-21 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  42. # [01:06] <TabAtkins> Alternately, we just build randomness in, but nobody ever seriously considers that. :/
  43. # [01:07] <zewt> not sure how you could do that in the general case
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  46. # [01:08] <zewt> without making things worse in some cases
  47. # [01:10] <zewt> i guess a minimal "randomness", without going all the way, could have the wanted effect, like occasionally breaking a push of 1000 bytes into two callbacks of 300 and 700 bytes, just to exercise the "this isn't always 1000 bytes at a time" code path
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  49. # [01:11] <zewt> (which is probably a real case--if you're sending 1000 bytes, and you're on a 1500 MTU network, and you're only testing with a local server, you might never see your 1000-byte-data-chunks get split up)
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  58. # [01:20] <roc> TabAtkins: http://robert.ocallahan.org/2014/03/introducing-chaos-mode.html
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  60. # [01:21] <roc> TabAtkins: it would be nice to make randomness mandatory. The problem is it makes debugging harder for everyone.
  61. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I know. :/
  62. # [01:21] <TabAtkins> But an occasional thin, like zewt said, might work sufficiently.
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  64. # [01:22] <roc> Sooner or later we'll have the record-and-replay technology we need to make the debugging easy.
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  81. # [01:56] <zewt> well, there's a certain level of randomness in real-world networking anyway, so in a sense simulating it in the browser so that randomness is *always* there makes some sorts of testing/debugging easier
  82. # [01:57] <zewt> (of course, it doesn't have to be mandatory to fulfill that part)
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  103. # [02:50] <roc> gah
  104. # [02:50] <roc> Chrome still doesn't support the unprefixed "transform" property?
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  106. # [02:54] <JosephSilber> gah indeed
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  132. # [04:19] <foolip_> roc: it's happening finally: https://codereview.chromium.org/98663004/
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  134. # [04:20] <roc> created 2 months ago
  135. # [04:20] <roc> ?
  136. # [04:21] <roc> but, that's great
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  155. # [04:46] <foolip> roc: I guess he worked on it for a while, the blink-dev thread is only a few days old
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  181. # [06:02] <cabanier> foolip: it's still to early to remove theprefix
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  200. # [07:21] <krit> cabanier: roc: foolip: smfr and I worked on a proposal to make 3D transforms interoperable. smfr published the early spec text as a google doc in one of his mails to www-style. This will require smaller to bigger changes in all Implementatuons. But I do believe it is going into the right direction and is more logical. That said, I think Blink should wait
  201. # [07:21] <krit> before unprefixing and add the chanes first.
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  233. # [08:56] <niloy> is there any api to communicate between open tabs/windows?
  234. # [08:56] <foolip> cabanier: ok, you should tell blink-dev
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  237. # [08:56] <ondras> niloy: postMessage would work
  238. # [08:56] <niloy> postMessage requires handle to the other window, I want to broadcast to all open windows
  239. # [08:57] <ondras> tough luck I guess. People are doing this by abusing localStorage events, IIRC
  240. # [08:58] <niloy> ok thanks, I would do that too
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  247. # [09:43] <krit> foolip: Rik and I did previously... just responded again
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  256. # [10:06] <zcorpan> Hixie: why does <dialog>.close() throw (instead of being no-op)?
  257. # [10:07] <zcorpan> niloy: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/web-messaging.html#broadcasting-to-other-browsing-contexts (i guess it's not implemented yet though)
  258. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> per the DOM spec is there any case in which when a UA fires an event, it doesn't initialize the isTrusted attribute to "true"?
  259. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> any case in which that's conforming
  260. # [10:15] <Ms2ger> I don't think so
  261. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> OK, specifically, blink fires the "focus" and "blur" events without isTrusted=true
  262. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> so that's non conforming, right?
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  264. # [10:18] <Ms2ger> Mmm
  265. # [10:18] <Ms2ger> I suspect it would be
  266. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> ok
  267. # [10:19] <zcorpan> there's no proper spec for focus/blur i think, but it's certainly wrong
  268. # [10:20] <zcorpan> hmm http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#trusted-events actually says something about it
  269. # [10:21] <zcorpan> (sorry for TR/)
  270. # [10:21] <zcorpan> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dom3events/raw-file/tip/html/DOM3-Events.html#trusted-events
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  274. # [10:23] <zcorpan> "Most untrusted events should not trigger default actions, with the exception of click or DOMActivate events." ... "All other untrusted events must behave as if the Event.preventDefault() method had been called on that event."
  275. # [10:23] <zcorpan> so is that SHOULD NOT or MUST?
  276. # [10:23] * MikeSmith looks
  277. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: the HTML spec itself put requirements on focus/blur
  278. # [10:24] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: oh
  279. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/editing.html#focus-update-steps
  280. # [10:25] <zcorpan> well then
  281. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: but gecko makes both of them cancelable, and in blink both are isTrusted=undefined
  282. # [10:36] <zcorpan> undefined? looks like it's not supported on any event?
  283. # [10:39] <zcorpan> wonder what should happen with HTMLDialogElement.prototype.returnValue = { set:function(v) { alert(v); } }; <dialog open>.close('x');
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  289. # [10:53] <darobin> heh, evil zcorpan
  290. # [11:02] <jgraham> QA zcorpan only has one setting
  291. # [11:11] <zcorpan> :-)
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  324. # [13:40] <ondras> so, a question re. <template> element
  325. # [13:40] <ondras> who is the best person for this?
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  328. # [13:44] <Ms2ger> dglazkov
  329. # [13:44] <ondras> dglazkov: ?
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  331. # [13:45] <ondras> dglazkov: do I understand correctly that template.content has a different ownerDocument than the document containing the <template> itself?
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  341. # [14:27] <annevk> ondras: test it
  342. # [14:28] <annevk> ondras: but I believe that's true, yes
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  352. # [15:02] <abarth> ondras: I think they all share a common document that's different from the active document
  353. # [15:03] * WolfieZero|Away is now known as WolfieZero
  354. # [15:03] <ondras> and yet, it looks like one can append template.content (or template.content.cloneNode()) into the current document
  355. # [15:03] <ondras> which is normally not true, IIRC
  356. # [15:04] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@203.69.99.16) (Quit: jdaggett)
  357. # [15:04] <ondras> (that's why importNode exists, right?)
  358. # [15:04] <abarth> doesn't appendChild adopt automatically these days?
  359. # [15:04] <ondras> hmmh, that would explain it
  360. # [15:04] <abarth> I think annevk changed that a year or so ago
  361. # [15:04] <annevk> yes, implicit adopt is the norm
  362. # [15:04] <annevk> in fact, I don't think there's anything that does not do implicit adopt these days
  363. # [15:05] <annevk> too convenient
  364. # [15:05] <ondras> annevk: I tried in one browser and the ownerDocument differed, yes
  365. # [15:05] <ondras> annevk: but this stuff is still pretty raw, so I wanted to make sure it adhers to the spec
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  367. # [15:05] <annevk> ondras: just read the spec, it's per spec
  368. # [15:06] <annevk> ondras: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/scripting-1.html#template-contents is quite easy to follow
  369. # [15:07] <ondras> annevk: I saw the spec, but the fact that I can append template.content to a different document made me unsure
  370. # [15:07] <ondras> annevk: cause automatic adoption is something new to me
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  373. # [15:11] <ondras> also; <script> nodes in <template> are ignored until appended, but <script> nodes in <link rel="import"> are executed immediately?
  374. # [15:11] <ondras> even if the latter case also has a different ownerDocument?
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  378. # [15:15] <abarth> ondras: that's correct
  379. # [15:15] <abarth> script elements in template documents are just like script nodes in documents created via createDocument
  380. # [15:15] <abarth> imported documents are different in that they execute
  381. # [15:15] <abarth> (otherwise they'd be kind of useless)
  382. # [15:16] <ondras> abarth: okay, thanks for explanation. I am considering the best layout of features (html, js, imports, ...) for a "web components" overview talk + sample realization
  383. # [15:16] <abarth> neat
  384. # [15:16] <ondras> abarth: so typically a custom element is defined within an imported document; furthermore, its dom is specified in a <template> local to that import?
  385. # [15:18] <annevk> abarth: if HTML imports become DocumentFragment, they'd no longer execute I guess, might need tweaks for that...
  386. # [15:19] <abarth> ondras: correct
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  388. # [15:20] <ondras> abarth: and the <template> is generally not accidentaly accessible from within the host page
  389. # [15:20] <ondras> abarth: one would need to do link.import.querySelector(...) to reach it
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  391. # [15:24] <abarth> ondras: that I'm not sure how best to answer
  392. # [15:25] <abarth> you're right that the contents of the template aren't part of the document and so aren't accidentially accessible via querySelector
  393. # [15:26] <ondras> abarth: I understand that typically the host is not going to access the template
  394. # [15:26] <ondras> because it contradicts the best practices
  395. # [15:26] <ondras> or does it?
  396. # [15:27] <abarth> someone needs to access the template, but typically you'll use a templating library that does that work for you
  397. # [15:27] <ondras> that is what I am somewhat missing. The specs are available, introductory articles as well. But "recommended practices" along with relevant argumentation...
  398. # [15:27] <ondras> abarth: I was expecting a script inside the import to access it
  399. # [15:27] <abarth> e.g., you'll have {{ ... }} in your template that the library will fill in
  400. # [15:27] <ondras> and to use it as a shadowRoot for a customElement
  401. # [15:27] <abarth> there are different layers to the system
  402. # [15:27] <abarth> layers like <template> don't have much of an opinion
  403. # [15:27] <ondras> let's assume I want to use only existing standards
  404. # [15:27] <ondras> so no library code
  405. # [15:28] <abarth> in that case, you'll need to form your own opinion about how best to use these tools
  406. # [15:28] <abarth> <template> is a way of building a DOM "off to the side"
  407. # [15:28] <abarth> which is useful for making a template system
  408. # [15:29] <abarth> but it doesn't itself provide a syntax or mechanism for filling in the template and generating the DOM to display
  409. # [15:29] <abarth> that's left open for JavaScript libraries to decide
  410. # [15:29] <ondras> hmm
  411. # [15:29] <Domenic_> <template> is just <script type="text/x-my-template"> but with some preparsing advantages
  412. # [15:29] <ondras> I thought custom elements / shadow dom is a natural way to do so
  413. # [15:30] <abarth> yes, these tools are designed to work well together
  414. # [15:30] <abarth> but they don't force you to combine them in any specific way
  415. # [15:30] <ondras> Domenic_: well it is not suggested to put a valid HTML markup inside a <template> ?
  416. # [15:30] <Domenic_> ondras: i don't understand the question
  417. # [15:30] <ondras> Domenic_: because some people put unholy shit into <script type="my-own-template-system">
  418. # [15:30] <abarth> you can put HTML markup inside <template>
  419. # [15:31] <abarth> the script approach defers parsing
  420. # [15:31] <ondras> yes, I know I can. and I thought I *should*
  421. # [15:31] <abarth> it just contains a sequence of characters
  422. # [15:31] <abarth> <template> does the parsing at the same time as everything else
  423. # [15:31] <abarth> so it produces a DOM tree outside of the main document
  424. # [15:31] <ondras> yeah, but <template> implies a valid DOM inside of it
  425. # [15:31] <Domenic_> nope
  426. # [15:31] <ondras> which is not the case for <script type="custom">
  427. # [15:31] <ondras> nope? hm.
  428. # [15:31] <Domenic_> or, well, yes, but pretty much everything is a valid dom
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  431. # [15:33] <Domenic_> i guess what i mean is "parseable" not "valid"
  432. # [15:33] <ondras> okay
  433. # [15:33] <ondras> I see your point
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  435. # [15:34] <ondras> people should put whatever they want into <template> and make sure they fill it with data accordingly
  436. # [15:34] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.102)
  437. # [15:34] <ondras> so my question probably is, what is the recommended way of passing the filled-with-data template to the host document
  438. # [15:35] <ondras> Failed to execute 'write' on 'Document': It isn't possible to write into a document from an asynchronously-loaded external script unless it is explicitly opened.
  439. # [15:35] <ondras> darn!
  440. # [15:35] <ondras> (doc.write inside of an import)
  441. # [15:36] <ondras> so this api will need an async way of loading.
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  443. # [15:36] <abarth> ondras: there isn't a recommend way
  444. # [15:36] <abarth> ondras: that's up to library authors to decide
  445. # [15:36] <ondras> ok
  446. # [15:37] <abarth> ondras: I can give you some links to libraries that have opinions on that topic, but they all do things differently
  447. # [15:37] <abarth> ondras: <template> is a hammer. What you build with it is up to you.
  448. # [15:37] <ondras> abarth: I will try a non-library approach and see what comes out. Thanks anyway.
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  450. # [15:38] <abarth> a simple thing you can try
  451. # [15:38] <abarth> is cloning the contents of the template
  452. # [15:38] <abarth> and appending them to the DOM
  453. # [15:38] <ondras> obviously
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  455. # [15:38] <ondras> (and that works fine, yes)
  456. # [15:38] <Domenic_> it's a pretty cool hammer though. e.g. consider how annoying it was to change <img src="{{src}}"> to <img src="real-src.gif"> with just <script type="text/my-template">.
  457. # [15:38] <ondras> but what part of the host-import duet shall do that?
  458. # [15:39] <ondras> Domenic_: how exactly would you re-word this example using a <template>?
  459. # [15:39] <Domenic_> ondras: which example?
  460. # [15:39] <ondras> 715:38 < Domenic_> it's a pretty cool hammer though. e.g. consider how annoying it was to change <img src="{{src}}"> to <img src="real-src.gif"> with just <script type="text/my-template">.
  461. # [15:40] <Domenic_> sure. with <script> you had to do string manipulation. with <template> you can just access the inert DOM inside the template
  462. # [15:40] <ondras> ah, ok
  463. # [15:40] <ondras> I thought the <script> version could leverage some DOM manipulation as well
  464. # [15:40] <Domenic_> nah, cuz it's just a blob of unparsed text
  465. # [15:40] <ondras> Domenic_: well one can put it inside a <div> or so...
  466. # [15:41] <Domenic_> then you get a 404 for {{src}}
  467. # [15:41] <ondras> true.
  468. # [15:41] <Domenic_> <template> gives you the inertness
  469. # [15:41] <ondras> which is cool, indeed
  470. # [15:41] <ondras> but probably not the best tool for my current use case of an interactive map
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  472. # [15:42] <ondras> which does not have any relevant templatable content, I guess
  473. # [15:42] <Domenic_> yeah, if you're not looking for "a better <script type="text/my-template">," you probably don't want <template>.
  474. # [15:42] <ondras> I am not
  475. # [15:42] <ondras> 15:14 < ondras> abarth: okay, thanks for explanation. I am considering the best layout of features (html, js, imports, ...) for a "web components" overview talk + sample realization
  476. # [15:43] <ondras> my company is offering a mapping JS API (similar to gmaps api), so it would be natural to demo web components using <our-own-map> or so
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  478. # [15:43] <Domenic_> yeah, just custom elements, maybe shadow DOM, are probably what you want here
  479. # [15:44] <abarth> ondras: yep
  480. # [15:44] <abarth> ondras: when your custom element gets created, you might have a template to instantiate
  481. # [15:44] <abarth> ondras: and you can put the instance in the shadow
  482. # [15:44] <abarth> ondras: that's the general idea :
  483. # [15:44] <abarth> :)
  484. # [15:44] <ondras> that is what I see in many examples
  485. # [15:44] <ondras> but not very suitable for a map
  486. # [15:45] <ondras> custom elements, shadowdom, imports
  487. # [15:45] <ondras> sounds like a useful combo for my case.
  488. # [15:45] <ondras> template will be demoed elsewhere
  489. # [15:46] <abarth> it still might be useful... consider the case where there are many our-own-map elements
  490. # [15:47] <abarth> you might want to parse the DOM for the inside of the element once
  491. # [15:47] <abarth> and then just clone it for each instance
  492. # [15:47] <abarth> maybe for a map you don't expect many instances per page
  493. # [15:47] <ondras> the DOM for the inside is built by the JS API script
  494. # [15:47] <ondras> which loads all the map layer tiles, draws controls etc
  495. # [15:47] <abarth> that works too
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  500. # [15:51] <ondras> one more question
  501. # [15:51] <ondras> http://w3c.github.io/webcomponents/explainer/
  502. # [15:51] <ondras> the this._root property name. chosen arbitrarily, or is the "_root" some pre-defined reserved name?
  503. # [15:52] <abarth> it's just arbitrary
  504. # [15:52] <abarth> could be anything you like
  505. # [15:52] <ondras> okay
  506. # [15:53] <abarth> the idea is that you don't want to lose track of the shadow root
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  508. # [15:53] <abarth> because it's your window into the hidden part of the element
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  518. # [16:10] <ondras> abarth: so now my custom element is lacking a display:block declaration, although it extends HTMLDivElement.prototype
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  520. # [16:11] <ondras> abarth: I wonder what am I doing wrong
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  522. # [16:11] <abarth> ondras: yep. extending HTMLDivElement.prototype doesn't make you a block
  523. # [16:11] <abarth> you need to use CSS for that
  524. # [16:11] <ondras> interesting
  525. # [16:11] <abarth> <style>my-map { display: block; }</style>
  526. # [16:12] <abarth> if you're in shadow dom:
  527. # [16:12] <abarth> <style>:host { display: block; }</style>
  528. # [16:12] <abarth> lets you avoid repeating the name of your element
  529. # [16:12] <ondras> neat
  530. # [16:13] <abarth> that's just because unknown elements are display: inline in browsers
  531. # [16:13] <ondras> now these styles
  532. # [16:13] <ondras> shall be inside of my <template> I guess
  533. # [16:13] <ondras> the only reason for its existence!
  534. # [16:13] <ondras> also, <style scoped>, right?
  535. # [16:14] <abarth> styles are automatically scoped to their shadow tree
  536. # [16:14] <abarth> if you're using JS to build the test of your dom, you can just add the style element with JS too
  537. # [16:15] <ondras> I will be using <template> in the end, for two reasons
  538. # [16:15] <ondras> first, to provide a <style> node for that :host declaration
  539. # [16:15] <ondras> second, the map needs a container to build itself in
  540. # [16:15] <ondras> and the shadow root is not a suitable container itself.
  541. # [16:16] <ondras> so my template will be like <template> <style> :host { display:block; } div { width:100%;height:100%; }</style> <div></div></template>
  542. # [16:16] <abarth> you can give you div an ID if you like
  543. # [16:17] <abarth> as long as you put the instance in the shadow, it won't collide with any ids used by the host document
  544. # [16:17] <ondras> ok
  545. # [16:17] <abarth> the shadow root has a getElementById
  546. # [16:17] <ondras> well that is not necessary, querySelector("div") will retrieve it anyway
  547. # [16:17] <abarth> that looks inside the shadow
  548. # [16:17] <abarth> that's true
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  551. # [16:19] <ondras> abarth: the attributeChangedCallback does not apply when a width changes, for instance?
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  560. # [16:32] <TabAtkins> abarth: :host does more than just allow you to avoid repeating the name of your element - you actually *can't* select the host element by its tagname from within the shadow DOM.
  561. # [16:32] <TabAtkins> The only thing that matches the host element is :host.
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  567. # [16:37] <Hixie> zcorpan: dunno, maybe we should changhe it
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  589. # [17:23] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  590. # [17:27] <SamB> hmm, what do people think of abusing web fonts for icons (when those icons lack standardized Unicode codepoints)?
  591. # [17:28] <SamB> the fallback story seems pretty terrible ...
  592. # [17:29] * Joins: ambv (~ambv@206.108.217.134)
  593. # [17:29] <wilhelm_> I use them all the time, together with text. It's great.
  594. # [17:29] <wilhelm_> On their own, I agree, they're tricky.
  595. # [17:29] <SamB> I mean, what about user-agents that can't handle web fonts?
  596. # [17:30] <wilhelm_> They see nothing, in the same way as browsers that don't support border-radius don't see rounded corners. What's the problem with that?
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  602. # [17:33] <wilhelm_> For real-world use, you're down to Android 2.* and Opera Mini lacking proper web font support. They can live with minor cosmetic flaws.
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  604. # [17:34] <wilhelm_> (I'm assuming you are using icons in addition to text, not as a replacement.)
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  611. # [17:40] <SamB> wilhelm_: er, how would you arrange that they see nothing, rather than seeing at best a U+FFFD ?
  612. # [17:41] * WolfieZero is now known as WolfieZero|Away
  613. # [17:45] <wilhelm_> SamB: s/nothing/U+FFFD
  614. # [17:45] <wilhelm_> But retesting this in Android 2.2, my icons are visible...
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  628. # [18:00] <SamB> I guess it probably doesn't matter as much on sites that demand JavaScript, though I don't know what screenreaders do with such icons ...
  629. # [18:02] <SamB> or rather, what you can do with such icons to get screenreaders to leave them alone
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  631. # [18:03] <SamB> I suppose it's probably fairly safe to use :before rules to add them? (Does anyone support :before but not web fonts?)
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  634. # [18:05] <SamB> but, anyway, if such icons are present in the HTML as, say, some CJK character, that's going to look VERY bad in elinks, w3m, or any of the Emacs-based browsers ...
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  636. # [18:06] * SamB imagines a new font-family keyword "none" ...
  637. # [19:15] * jory is now known as gasket

The end :)