/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-03-24 / end

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  61. # [03:46] <roc> anyone have any idea why Safari doesn't supported IndexedDB?
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  80. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> the definition of "absolute URL" at http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-absolute-url disallows absolute URLs from having a fragment
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  114. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> http://www.scribd.com/doc/213628421/Exhibit-1871 is pretty interesting
  115. # [07:48] <MikeSmith> (by way of roc's blog http://robert.ocallahan.org/2014/03/mozilla-and-silicon-valley-cartel.html)
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  122. # [07:59] <a-ja> MikeSmith: you do work on validator.nu ?
  123. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> a-ja: yup
  124. # [08:00] <a-ja> found an inconsistancy between it and w3c's
  125. # [08:01] <a-ja> header content on summary element not allowed yet
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  127. # [08:03] <a-ja> whatwg spec allows it now....fairly recent change (and html5.1 ??? iirc)
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  129. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> a-ja: I work on the shared backend for validator.nu and the W3C Nu validator but not on the actual http://validator.nu/ or http://html5.validator.nu/ services
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  131. # [08:15] <MikeSmith> I push changes to http://validator.w3.org/nu/ at least once a week or so but these days http://validator.nu/ and http://html5.validator.nu/ don't get updated with the changes quite as often
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  140. # [08:22] <a-ja> MikeSmith: related question...if you recall, we chatted a bit about summary role=button and details role=group failing. so removed both, and validator then complained about missing roles (but didn't say which roles they should be). help me out?! :)
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  144. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> a-ja: if you give me an document or URL I can check
  145. # [08:37] <a-ja> MikeSmith: <details id="toc-details" role="group" aria-labelledby="toc-summary" open="open"><summary id="toc-summary" role="button" aria-controls="toc-details" aria-expanded="true" tabindex="0">
  146. # [08:37] <a-ja> MikeSmith: vs just: <details id="toc-details" aria-labelledby="toc-summary" open="open"><summary id="toc-summary" aria-controls="toc-details" aria-expanded="true" tabindex="0">
  147. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> yeah
  148. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> a-ja: so I guess if you use other aria-* attributes on those elements, it's going to say you need the role attribute
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  150. # [08:39] <a-ja> MikeSmith: perhaps so
  151. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> because those particular aria- attributes are only valid for certain roles
  152. # [08:39] <MikeSmith> I can't easily fix the error message there
  153. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> I wish I could but the fact is the whole aria stuff is so completely baroque and overengineered that we're lucky to have any validator support for it at all
  154. # [08:41] <MikeSmith> what's there now has easily cost me more time to work on than any other part of the validator
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  157. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> and I didn't even do most of the development of the aria support in the validator. hsivonen did. I just worked on top of what he had developed, and it still cost me days and days of time
  158. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> so I guess I'll just add role=group to details
  159. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> do I need to add role=button to summary also?
  160. # [08:43] * MikeSmith checks the spec
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  162. # [08:44] <a-ja1> not sure either of those match spec right now
  163. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> role=summary is a role that supports aria-expanded, so it matches the spec close enough
  164. # [08:45] <a-ja1> think it probably just got overlooked at the time
  165. # [08:45] <a-ja1> yep
  166. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> but
  167. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> role is not allowed for summary at all
  168. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> explicitly
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  171. # [08:46] <MikeSmith> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#concept-role-none
  172. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> "The entry "no role", when used as a strong native semantic, means that no role other than presentation can be used."
  173. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> if you think that's misguided then you need to file a spec bug
  174. # [08:47] <MikeSmith> I can't have the validator violate that constraint
  175. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> w3c spec says the same thing:
  176. # [08:48] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/dom.html#concept-role-none
  177. # [08:54] <a-ja1> yeah...maybe the answer is "do it in script" rather than in the html
  178. # [08:54] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  179. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> yeah that's a general solution for getting around aria validation problems
  180. # [08:54] <a-ja1> polyfills forever! :\
  181. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> the other solution is to just ignore the errors
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  183. # [08:55] <a-ja1> mm hmm
  184. # [08:55] <MikeSmith> or filter them out at http://validator.w3.org/nu/ with the message filtering option
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  187. # [09:03] <a-ja1> i have sympathy for the "fix ARIA, the a11y API's, and the screen readers, and stop messing with clean HTML" argument
  188. # [09:05] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  236. # [12:16] <mathiasbynens> what kinds of security vulnerabilities does `showModalDialog`’s “pause JS execution” behavior cause?
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  240. # [12:25] <annevk> mathiasbynens: its nested event loop behavior is the only one in the platform, which makes for some tricky coding elsewhere, which might lead to exploits
  241. # [12:27] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
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  244. # [12:34] <mathiasbynens> annevk: gotcha, thanks
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  249. # [13:16] <annevk> "I'm not why why Anne thinks an email from February reflects the current thinking of Mozillians on this topic."
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  251. # [13:17] <annevk> Well, if you're gonna ask one of us in private what the status quo is and that person is not even implementing, you're gonna have a bad time...
  252. # [13:18] <annevk> "but recently selectors were renamed again" :-)
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  273. # [14:15] <MikeSmith> cool, google came up with a way we don't need cookies any more https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=355541
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  281. # [14:37] <SteveF> a-ja1: role=button now allowed on <summary> thanks for the heads up it was something I had meant to fix previously https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25135
  282. # [14:38] <SteveF> a-ja1: have spoken with mike smith, he will update http://validator.w3.org/nu/
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  291. # [15:01] <Jasper> I remember a little while ago there were meeting notes saying that :before / :after were mistakes.
  292. # [15:01] <Ms2ger> As opposed to ::before?
  293. # [15:02] <Jasper> erm, I meant ::before / ::after.
  294. # [15:02] <Jasper> I believe they were for Adobe's proposal for having multiple ::before / ::after psuedoelements?
  295. # [15:03] <astearns> Jasper: that opinion did come up in that discussion, yes
  296. # [15:04] <Jasper> It seems like multiple ::before / ::after elements will probably never happen for those reasons.
  297. # [15:05] <Jasper> Would anybody be able to find the meeting notes for me?
  298. # [15:05] <astearns> Jasper: the current multiple before/after proposal was dead on arrival
  299. # [15:06] <Jasper> Hm
  300. # [15:06] <astearns> but more ways of creating boxes in CSS keeps coming up as a need
  301. # [15:06] <astearns> so something in that area may eventually happen
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  303. # [15:06] <Jasper> I remember the issue being mostly related to accessibility, scriptability and poor devtools support.
  304. # [15:08] <astearns> IMO, the main issue is scriptability - pseudo-elements will be inadequate until/unless we have better script support for them
  305. # [15:10] <Jasper> Aha, found it! http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Aug/0771.html
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  326. # [16:03] <annevk> https://twitter.com/thijs/status/448064463498133504 o_O
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  329. # [16:06] <annevk> Oh I'm late to the party
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  337. # [16:15] <ondras> but it is amusing anyway.
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  343. # [16:19] <annevk> WHATWG list is pretty close to a <canvas> list these days
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  346. # [16:23] <jcgregorio> canvas \o/ :-)
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  357. # [16:36] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  359. # [16:43] <Hixie> MikeSmith: btw, changing things in scripts silences the validator, but doesn't make them any more valid
  360. # [16:44] <Hixie> (why would <summary> get role=button? it's not interactive. am i missing something?)
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  363. # [16:45] <wilhelm> Toggling its parent is interactive, presumably.
  364. # [16:46] <Hixie> well the interactive part of the <details> should be interactive, sure, but it's not in the DOM, so...
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  366. # [16:47] * gsnedders sighs
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  368. # [16:47] <gsnedders> I feel like I could've saved myself months by showing everything I managed about the tokenizer through a proof by exhaustion...
  369. # [16:48] <Hixie> heh
  370. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, so, what have you learned? :)
  371. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> Why the AAA works?
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  373. # [16:49] <gsnedders> hah! like I managed to model the tree constructor.
  374. # [16:49] * gsnedders cries
  375. # [16:49] <jgraham> So you are saying that your decision not to use proof by exhaustion led to exhaustion?
  376. # [16:49] <gsnedders> Yes, yes entirely.
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  378. # [16:50] <gsnedders> Does anyone want to try and prove that the tree constructor cannot be implemented by a pushdown automaton?
  379. # [16:51] <Ms2ger> No
  380. # [16:51] <jgraham> gsnedders: You?
  381. # [16:51] <Ms2ger> I would love to see a proof that it can be
  382. # [16:51] <gsnedders> I don't have time to before the deadline, sadly.
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  388. # [17:02] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: I simultaneously suspect it is and that it is not. :(
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  392. # [17:05] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, so your belief is in a state of superposition?
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  394. # [17:05] <gsnedders> Actually, does the parsing of <p><table><p> not show that HTML cannot be context-free?
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  401. # [17:13] <SteveF> hixie: implementations appear to disagree with you e.g. in blink summary is focusable control
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  403. # [17:13] <Hixie> yeah, that's a known bug in blink
  404. # [17:14] <SteveF> bug number?
  405. # [17:15] <Hixie> no idea
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  415. # [17:29] <annevk> Hixie: if an exception is thrown from a compound microtask subtask, do you handle that? or should I be catching exceptions?
  416. # [17:30] <annevk> gsnedders: what does context-free mean?
  417. # [17:30] <Hixie> interesting question
  418. # [17:30] <Hixie> a subtask is just a set of steps
  419. # [17:31] <Hixie> so i guess it depends on how you're invoking the script
  420. # [17:31] <annevk> I was looking at https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17713#c16 and wondering if what bz said under 11) is still the case
  421. # [17:31] <annevk> I just say "invoke callback with x and y"
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  423. # [17:32] <Hixie> how does webidl define "invoke callback"?
  424. # [17:33] <annevk> Hixie: http://heycam.github.io/webidl/#es-invoking-callback-functions it just propagates
  425. # [17:33] <annevk> Hixie: unless it's part of a promise returning thing
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  429. # [17:36] <annevk> Hixie: is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#report-the-error what I should be invoking?
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  431. # [17:38] <Hixie> we should just have a single function that invokes a callback, catches exceptions and reports them
  432. # [17:38] <Hixie> but yes, i think so
  433. # [17:38] <annevk> hmm yeah, if you could provide that shorthand...
  434. # [17:39] <annevk> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25138
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  437. # [17:46] <Hixie> annevk: will do
  438. # [17:47] <Hixie> (i'm mostly afk this week btw, won't be getting much done; sorry)
  439. # [17:47] <Hixie> annevk: should i wait for that bug to be assigned to me once heycam has seen it?
  440. # [17:48] <annevk> Hixie: either way I guess, I'd still like a <dfn> in IDL
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  442. # [17:48] <annevk> Hixie: I could file a separate one on you
  443. # [17:49] <Hixie> either way. i commented on that idl bug.
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  447. # [17:51] <TabAtkins> annevk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-free_grammar
  448. # [17:51] <TabAtkins> annevk: A grammar that doesn't take the surrounding context into account when expanding things.
  449. # [17:51] <annevk> Hixie: ta
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  489. # [18:48] <Hixie> i can't believe how inefficient mediawiki and wordpress are
  490. # [18:48] <Hixie> i host literally dozens of sites on this one machine, including multiple long-lived websocket servers and so on, and all the cpu and ram goes to the php scripts running wiki.whatwg.org and blog.whatwg.org.
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  493. # [18:49] <Ms2ger> Blame php :)
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  495. # [18:50] <annevk> Hixie: oooh, so me hammering svn.whatwg.org is fine? :p
  496. # [18:50] <annevk> Hixie: I tried to get foolip to rewrite the setup, he put on his list of things to do before he dies
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  500. # [18:57] <foolip> Hixie: is there any particular reason you haven't switched to git, other than not having a particular reason to do it?
  501. # [18:57] <Ms2ger> Eww, git
  502. # [18:58] <Hixie> not having any reason to do it is the main reason i don't do most things :-)
  503. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> Why would you ever use git if you weren't forced to?
  504. # [18:58] <foolip> :)
  505. # [18:58] <Hixie> annevk: svn stuff seems to all fall under apache, so i've no way to tell if it's svn or just regular web traffic
  506. # [18:59] <jgraham> I mainly use it to wind up Ms2ger
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  508. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> :D
  509. # [18:59] <Hixie> annevk: (apache usage is highish, but i expect that on a machine with 60+ domains hosted)
  510. # [18:59] <foolip> Ms2ger: I use Git wherever possible, like if I need to diff two files I add them to git to get the pretty colors :)
  511. # [18:59] <Hixie> (it's nowhere near as high as i'd expect, really)
  512. # [19:00] <Hixie> foolip: i use emacs to get pretty colours
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  515. # [19:00] <foolip> Hixie: I suspected you used Emacs from the way the source is wrapped :)
  516. # [19:01] <tantek> Hixie, is it PHP or is it MySQL?
  517. # [19:01] <Ablu> foolip: you do not need to add files to diff them
  518. # [19:01] <Hixie> foolip: the first line wasn't a giveaway? (-*- mode: Text; fill-column: 100 -*-)
  519. # [19:01] <Ablu> git diff <file1> <file2> works
  520. # [19:01] <Hixie> tantek: php
  521. # [19:01] <Ablu> even if they are not in git
  522. # [19:01] <Hixie> tantek: the mysql stuff is on a different box entirely
  523. # [19:01] <foolip> Hixie: well, and the comment about emacs lines in the WebVTT spec
  524. # [19:01] <Hixie> heh
  525. # [19:01] <Hixie> i have "f6" in emacs bound to "open the html spec" :-)
  526. # [19:01] <foolip> Ablu: cool, I didn't know that :)
  527. # [19:02] <foolip> but I'll probably keep using Git where not needed to spite Ms2ger
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  530. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> foolip, that's probably a better reason than most to use git
  531. # [19:03] <foolip> Ms2ger: dare I ask what you would rather use?
  532. # [19:03] <Ms2ger> Take a guess
  533. # [19:03] <Hixie> git seems reasonable to use if you're working on a colaborative distributed project, like linux
  534. # [19:03] <foolip> hg
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  536. # [19:04] <Hixie> if you're one person editing one file, git seems kinda pointless.
  537. # [19:04] <Ms2ger> Correct
  538. # [19:04] <jgraham> Hixie: It seems significantly better than svn for either case
  539. # [19:04] <Hixie> how is it better than svn for solo use?
  540. # [19:04] <Ms2ger> Hixie, actually, I found one person editing to be the only reasonable way to use git :)
  541. # [19:05] <foolip> Hixie: I guess, unless you're already used to Git for all other projects
  542. # [19:05] <Hixie> well sure, if you're already used to it
  543. # [19:05] <Hixie> in my case, when i had to pick a version control system, all i had experienced so far was cvs
  544. # [19:05] <Ablu> why not to use git: http://vimeo.com/74377782
  545. # [19:05] <Hixie> and git didn't exist
  546. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> I definitely vastly prefer git over svn for personal projects as well.
  547. # [19:06] * Ms2ger gets off Hixie's lawn
  548. # [19:06] <jgraham> Ah, hg, the vcs that's so broken it needs a whole different system to allow you to work locally. A system that itself is so broken it requires a whole second repository to make it not astonishingly likely to lose your work
  549. # [19:06] <TabAtkins> The distributed-ness of it is nice for multi-user projects, sure, but most of the benefits are in personal use.
  550. # [19:06] <Hixie> i'm open to being convinced, but i'm failing to see anything that i need from a version control system that i don't already have :-)
  551. # [19:07] <Hixie> mostly i want commit, and blame.
  552. # [19:07] <Ms2ger> jgraham, hey, you were already winding me up :)
  553. # [19:07] <Hixie> and diff
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  555. # [19:07] <Hixie> and monotonically increasing version numbers
  556. # [19:07] <Hixie> svn gives me all that
  557. # [19:07] <foolip> Hixie: I asked mostly to find out if it was because of dependencies like web-apps-tracker, in which case I would have prioritized fixing that, but if you're happy the way things are then all is well
  558. # [19:07] <Ms2ger> git gives... blame, I guess
  559. # [19:07] <Hixie> oh and also the ability to quickly graft different parts of a repo into my directory tree
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  561. # [19:07] <Hixie> svn supports that too, luckily
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  565. # [19:08] <Hixie> foolip: oh, no. my build system already supports committing to multiple repos anyway, so it wouldn't be an issue for me to change the canonical one.
  566. # [19:09] <Hixie> foolip: without breaking back compat.
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  568. # [19:09] * WolfieZero|Away is now known as WolfieZero
  569. # [19:09] <foolip> oh, ok
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  571. # [19:10] <foolip> well, the mirror works for me, except when annevk makes commits and it broke :)
  572. # [19:10] <foolip> (fixed now)
  573. # [19:10] <Hixie> anne committed to the mirror? o_O
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  575. # [19:11] <foolip> no, r8556 and r8557 in your repo was some test commits
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  577. # [19:11] <foolip> my script broke because it only had an entry in AUTHORS for you
  578. # [19:12] <Hixie> oh hey
  579. # [19:12] <Hixie> i didn't even know anne had access to do that!
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  582. # [19:13] <foolip> well, he broke your 8 year streak of commits :)
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  584. # [19:14] <Hixie> hey look at that, hsivonen has access too
  585. # [19:14] <Hixie> i wonder when i gave them access :-)
  586. # [19:15] <SamB> hmm, the spoiler tag in http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/24401/so-obviously-p-np acts a bit funny WRT the hyperlink :-)
  587. # [19:15] <Hixie> looks like it was just two empty commits
  588. # [19:16] <foolip> a test.txt was added and removed. no commit message though
  589. # [19:16] <Hixie> weird
  590. # [19:17] <Hixie> says something about dreamhost tech support
  591. # [19:17] <Hixie> annevk: any idea what the story is with the test.txt file?
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  594. # [19:20] <TabAtkins> SamB: <blockquote class="spoiler"> does a 'color' transition to/from transparent over .5s. But hyperlinks already have a transition rule for 'color' going over .2s, intended for a more subtle color shift when hovering. So the blockquote's 'color' rule overrides, but the a's transition wins, and you get the weird extra-fast transition.
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  596. # [19:21] <SamB> oh, bonus, an explanation
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  598. # [19:21] <Hixie> foolip: (did your script get invoked?)
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  604. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> SamB: That's why you should do silly tricks like a color transition to 'transparent'. Use 'opacity' on the block element, like God intended, even if it means you need a wrapper element inside the spoiler element.
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  606. # [19:24] <TabAtkins> s/you should/you shouldn't/
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  608. # [19:25] <foolip> Hixie: not by your ping, the last one was 2014-03-19T22:02:24.506Z
  609. # [19:25] <foolip> but I also have it as a daily cron job in case of network failures or whatever
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  616. # [19:39] <SamB> TabAtkins: sigh, wrapper elements :-(
  617. # [19:41] * SamB didn't even style this site, actually
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  620. # [19:42] <annevk-cloud> Hixie: DH support
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  623. # [19:55] <Hixie> foolip: ah, ok
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  625. # [19:56] <Hixie> annevk-cloud: ?
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  634. # [20:06] <gsnedders> annevk-cloud: Importantly, pushdown automata and context-free grammars are equivilient.
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  638. # [20:07] <gsnedders> annevk-cloud: So if you can show no context-free grammar can express the language, it is implied there is no pushdown automaton
  639. # [20:09] <SamB> hmm, U+231B HOURGLASS is nice
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  641. # [20:13] <annevk> Hixie: I contacted DreamHost support about svn timing out, I assume they ran a test...
  642. # [20:13] <Hixie> ah
  643. # [20:13] <annevk> Hixie: not timing out, not having enough space allocated to calculate a diff or some such
  644. # [20:13] <Hixie> ah, yeah, i'd already told them /tmp was full
  645. # [20:13] <annevk> Hixie: k
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  648. # [20:18] <SamB> what do you have: a vhost, or a full VM?
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  650. # [20:20] <annevk> Hixie: seems weird that I have commit access btw, you might want to revoke that
  651. # [20:21] <annevk> Hixie: I have no idea how DH got hold of say, the credentials...
  652. # [20:21] <Hixie> yeah...
  653. # [20:22] <Hixie> k, i revoked your account. let me know if you find a reason you had it, so i can add it back.
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  659. # [20:35] <annevk> cool
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  714. # [22:27] <SamB> what was the original motivation for this behaviour: http://updates.html5rocks.com/2012/09/Stacking-Changes-Coming-to-position-fixed-elements
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  716. # [22:33] * SamB mumbles about no decent anchors for e.g. text/plain ...
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  737. # [22:52] <TabAtkins> SamB: Motivation is that fixpos is crazytimes, and allowing things in the page to sandwich between descendants of a fixpos is even more crazytimes.
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  739. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> Particularly on mobile, where (a) fixpos is *extra* crazy, due to the virtual viewport, and (b) gpu resources are smaller.
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  741. # [22:53] <SamB> ah, yeah, virtual viewport, right
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  743. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> (b) is important, because we put fixpos things on their own gpu layer so we can scroll decently, and if things can sandwich between, we have to split the fixpos into 2 or more layers.
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  745. # [22:54] <SamB> I was kind of expecting an efficiency-related answer
  746. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Making it always a stackign context lets us always use a single layer.
  747. # [22:54] <SamB> like "saves rendering resources"
  748. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Yup, that's basically it.
  749. # [22:54] <SamB> wasn't quite sure if that was going to be time or space though
  750. # [22:55] <SamB> same reason I don't like those background images that don't scroll
  751. # [22:55] <SamB> I want to kill them dead
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  753. # [22:56] <SamB> they literally tear
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  757. # [23:03] <Hixie> isn't fix pos always a stacking context per CSS2.1:E ?
  758. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Nope, not if z-index:auto
  759. # [23:05] <Hixie> huh
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  761. # [23:06] <Hixie> well we should fix that
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  805. # Session Close: Tue Mar 25 00:00:00 2014

The end :)