/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-03-26 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  65. # [01:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie: requests to wiki.whatwg.org hanging for a long time waiting for response
  66. # [01:39] <Hixie> yeah i noticed that myself a few minutes ago
  67. # [01:39] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  68. # [01:39] <MikeSmith> where long is like 10s or more
  69. # [01:39] <Hixie> load average is really high on the machine
  70. # [01:39] <Hixie> no idea why
  71. # [01:40] <MikeSmith> maybe getting hit by a crawler
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  73. # [01:41] <Hixie> some weird process running as root
  74. # [01:42] <Hixie> i'm either being attacked or dreamhost is checking for attacks, maybe
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  82. # [01:46] <MikeSmith> oh wow
  83. # [01:46] <MikeSmith> well I hope it's dreamhost
  84. # [01:46] <Hixie> yeah, i think it is
  85. # [01:48] <Hixie> looks like a huge grep command looking for infected php files
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  87. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> ah
  88. # [01:55] <Hixie> here's a sample command line:
  89. # [01:55] <Hixie> grep -Zl coder by Orlenok.do.am\|ru-otveti1.cc\|mail.ru-0tveti.com\|mail.ru-otveti2.cc\|ru-0tveti1.com\|com-app-view.cc\|homeincometds.ru\|workathome55.ru\|workathomejournal..
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  93. # [02:00] <Hixie> yeah it has to be dreamhost. the process is running as a subprocess of ssh, so if it was an attacker, they wouldn't need to grep for anything, they could just run their malware.
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  95. # [02:06] <zewt> who needs the internet to dos a server, when the provider is doing it for them
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  105. # [02:35] <MikeSmith> hahah
  106. # [02:35] <MikeSmith> indeed
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  109. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> I guess some would argue you're dos'ing yourself by running php-based services at all
  110. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> could be even worse I guess, could be running wordpress too
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  112. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> tantek: Is there a way I can have the microformats.org e-mail me a notification whenever a page I'm watching is changed?
  113. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> * microformats.org wiki
  114. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> or a feed I can subscribe to?
  115. # [02:47] <tantek> MikeSmith - not that I know of - but there is a feed of recent changes, that you could filter through for changes to the page
  116. # [02:47] <MikeSmith> naomi ok
  117. # [02:47] <MikeSmith> oops
  118. # [02:47] <MikeSmith> tantek: ok I'll try the recent-changes feed
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  128. # [03:10] <Hixie> MikeSmith: we run both wordpress and mediawiki :-|
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  131. # [03:20] <MikeSmith> Hixie: way to live dangerously man
  132. # [03:30] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  133. # [03:35] <tantek> MikeSmith - it's a common pattern :) we setup the same thing on microformats.org
  134. # [03:35] <tantek> though with indiewebcamp we ditched wordpress
  135. # [03:36] <tantek> because of course, everyone should just blog on their own domain ;)
  136. # [03:36] <MikeSmith> yeah I'm just trolling
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  138. # [03:37] <MikeSmith> but I am looking forward to the day when better Web software stacks are more common and easier to deploy and maintain
  139. # [03:37] <tantek> MikeSmith - you're welcome to lurk in #indiewebcamp and watch us develop multiple such stacks ;)
  140. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> tantek: I will drop by
  141. # [03:40] <Hixie> MikeSmith: did you hear about facebook's "Hack"?
  142. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> Hixie: no
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  144. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> programming language?
  145. # [03:41] <Hixie> http://code.facebook.com/posts/264544830379293/hack-a-new-programming-language-for-hhvm/
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  147. # [03:41] <Hixie> it's... php.
  148. # [03:42] <tantek> hey - I hear that's Tim Bray's favorite ;)
  149. # [03:42] <MikeSmith> wow it really is still just PHP basically
  150. # [03:43] <Hixie> yeah.
  151. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> https://fbcdn-dragon-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t39.2365-6/851566_537609726356988_1715700065_n.jpg
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  153. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> way to break new ground!
  154. # [03:44] <Hixie> also what's with people being unable to come up with good programming language names
  155. # [03:44] <Hixie> "go", "hack"
  156. # [03:44] <Hixie> have you any idea how unsearchable those terms are
  157. # [03:44] <tantek> Hixie: cassis.js :)
  158. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> yeah really dumb name choices
  159. # [03:45] <Hixie> [programming language hack] is not going to help anyone
  160. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> yeah what's another word for "sunk cost"?
  161. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> or "keep throwing good money after bad"
  162. # [03:46] <Hixie> i actually can't decide if "go" is a worse name or "hack". go is basically a stop word. "hack" is a word used for every programming language exploit.
  163. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> seriously there is some term for this, where you're deeply invested in some bad software choice that you can't replace it
  164. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> Erlang is the best language name
  165. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> as far as languages that are actually intended to be used
  166. # [03:49] <MikeSmith> hey somebody should name a language "Kerrang!"
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  168. # [03:49] <zewt> fca87fee-6c22-4533-8001-8ab6d8630f13++
  169. # [03:50] <MikeSmith> INTERCAL's a pretty good name too, because it sounds like other older lanaguge names, and sounds like it's legitimately intended to be useful
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  171. # [03:50] <zewt> or the nonsensically named git product named "stash"
  172. # [03:51] <zewt> why not call it "commit" while you're at it
  173. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> heh
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  183. # [04:09] <Hixie> MikeSmith: "ada", "pascal", "fortran", "cobol" are all pretty googleable names
  184. # [04:09] <Hixie> "perl" too
  185. # [04:09] <Hixie> and "python", in context
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  187. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah but all those names lack expressiveness
  188. # [04:14] <Hixie> heh
  189. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> a highly expressive language should have a highly expressive name
  190. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> like "Khaaaaaaaan!"
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  200. # [04:39] <MikeSmith> Hixie: in other news I'm trying to figure out how to implement the spec requirements for "shorcut icon" without resorting to a regexp
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  202. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> ーIf the "shortcut" keyword is present, it must be come immediately before the icon keyword and the two keywords must be separated by only a single U+0020 SPACE character.
  203. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> I mean that part
  204. # [04:41] <MikeSmith> hmm
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  208. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> I guess it's easy enough if I just save the value of the previous token for each time I check the next one
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  211. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> it hurts when the solution is "create yet another string"
  212. # [04:52] <Hixie> MikeSmith: do you know the offset of the start of the keyword?
  213. # [04:52] <Hixie> MikeSmith: if so, you can just do a substring search and a previous-keyword search
  214. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah I can determine the offset
  215. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> maybe that way would be better
  216. # [04:53] <Hixie> (but that's a weird requirement. maybe it should just be a keyword immediately before)
  217. # [04:55] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ah yeah
  218. # [04:55] <MikeSmith> that would definitely be better
  219. # [04:55] <Hixie> (file a bug if you want that, i'm kinda afk this week)
  220. # [04:56] <MikeSmith> I realize now that's actually what had been preventing me from implementing a check for this
  221. # [04:56] <MikeSmith> k
  222. # [04:56] <Hixie> i'd want to check why i had written it like that before
  223. # [04:56] <MikeSmith> yeah sure
  224. # [04:56] <Hixie> seems like a really weird requirement, not the kind of thing i'm likely to put in on a whim
  225. # [04:57] <MikeSmith> hmm yeah maybe IE doesn't actually recognize it if there are multiple spaces or a newline or tab there
  226. # [04:57] <Hixie> maybe, i dunno
  227. # [04:57] <Hixie> though maybe we no longer care if it's old IE?
  228. # [04:57] <Hixie> who knows
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  230. # [04:58] <MikeSmith> yup anyway I'll get the bug raised so we don't forget
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  242. # [06:01] <SamB> Hixie: are you not allowed to explain stuff like that somewhere in the spec itself for some reason?
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  245. # [06:02] <Hixie> i try not to include too much rationale in the spec because otherwise it gets out of control and makes the spec unreadable
  246. # [06:02] <Hixie> i sometimes leave it in comments
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  290. # [10:44] <zcorpan> Hixie: MikeSmith: "shortcut icon" is for ie compat
  291. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> yeah I know
  292. # [10:45] <zcorpan> http://web.archiveorange.com/archive/v/IJ6c3Cpqf8c6cE1xi7N3
  293. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> question Hixie and I have is, does IE really require that there be only a single space there
  294. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> will it work if it's multipel spaces or tabs or newline
  295. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> other whitespace
  296. # [10:46] <zcorpan> see above
  297. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> if so then it's a lot easier for me to implement a check for it in the validator
  298. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  299. # [10:46] * MikeSmith reads
  300. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: doesn't seem to be a definitive answer there about whether IE still works as expected with e.g. rel="shortcut icon" or whatever
  301. # [10:49] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i guess newer IEs haven't been tested
  302. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen demos at http://hsivonen.com/test/moz/shortcut-icon/ don't seem to be checking for the multiple/other whitespace case either
  303. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: blog post from JonathanNeal seems to indicate that at least IE10 still requires "shortcut icon" as opposed to just "icon"
  304. # [10:50] <zcorpan> rel="shortcut icon" with multiple spaces between "shortcut" and "icon" is not IE-compatible.) said hsivonen
  305. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> http://www.jonathantneal.com/blog/understand-the-favicon/
  306. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  307. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> well shit
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  309. # [10:51] <MikeSmith> I guess I'll just give up an use a negative forward lookup regexp then
  310. # [10:51] <zcorpan> i think it makes most sense to check for "shortcut icon" exactly (but ascii-case insensitive), but i guess that doesn't match the current spec
  311. # [10:51] <zcorpan> but we could change the spec to say that :-)
  312. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> yeah but for the validator case that wouldn't win us much
  313. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> we're just tokeninizing the whole value before doing anything else with it
  314. # [10:53] <zcorpan> if (keyword.toAsciiLower() == 'shortcut') assert(originalValue.toAsciiLower() == 'shortcut icon')
  315. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> oh
  316. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> yeah
  317. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> that'd be better
  318. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> sorry I didn't know what you meant
  319. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> yeah really that's what the requirement should be
  320. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> though apparently it doesn't need to be lowercase
  321. # [10:55] <zcorpan> that's why the code is lowercasing it before comparison :-)
  322. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> rel="SHORTCUT ICON" is what the IE does recommend
  323. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  324. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> yeah
  325. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> ok I'll file another bug
  326. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> spec bug
  327. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> actually I'll just change the one I already filed
  328. # [10:58] * matijs_ is now known as matijs
  329. # [11:02] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25151
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  335. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> damn is there really no simple way to find any associated bugs in a chrome code review
  336. # [11:21] * zcorpan wonders what's up with r8556
  337. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker doesn't show an r8556..
  338. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> oh
  339. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> there was some discussion about that here a couple days ago I htink
  340. # [11:23] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
  341. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> ーRe-investigate performance regression of moving DOM attributes to prototype chains and try to re-re-re-re-re-reland the CL.
  342. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> groundhog day
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  349. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: so bugzilla.validator.nu is still setting a cookie sometimes with ".bugzilla.validator.nu
  350. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> ... as the domain
  351. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> with the leading dot
  352. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> even after I deleted all my bugzilla.validator.nu cookies
  353. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> it's not a big deal -- I just re-delete them again after I notice it starts causing me login problems again
  354. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> just wanted to let you know
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  357. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> the problem is that it sets duplicate cookies, one with the domain with that leading dot and one without it
  358. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> if it were setting it once just with the leading dot I guess it would work fine
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  364. # [12:14] <annevk> MikeSmith: web-apps-tracker only shows commits to source fwiw
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  371. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> ok
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  377. # [12:45] <nickstenn> Hi all. I'm doing a bit of research about user(-agent) control over the DOM, and am looking for interesting things to read.
  378. # [12:46] <nickstenn> Specifically, if rollout of CSP is going to kill bookmarklets which load remote resources, what options are available to authors other than vendor-specific browser extensions?
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  380. # [12:50] <nickstenn> I guess, to rephrase, the question is as follows -- we are, for good reason, trying to make sure that page authors have more control about what code runs on their pages. At the moment, the only mechanism that users have to run their code on a page (that I know of) is vendor-specific, in the form of a browser extension.
  381. # [12:51] <nickstenn> Does anyone know of proposals to allow user-trusted code to run in the DOM in a standard way?
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  383. # [12:52] <annevk> nickstenn: nope
  384. # [12:52] <nickstenn> annevk: yeah, that's kind of the conclusion I'd drawn
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  417. # [14:40] <ondras> so, resetStyleInheritance vs. applyAuthorStyles
  418. # [14:40] <ondras> are both still in the spec? which spec is relevant? I am apparently unable to locate the correct one
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  420. # [14:46] * annevk has never seen those APIs
  421. # [14:48] <ondras> wow.
  422. # [14:48] <ondras> annevk: they are supposed to forbid page CSS to interfere with shadow dom's styling
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  430. # [15:17] <annevk> I'm surprised TextDecoder() always eats the BOM
  431. # [15:17] <annevk> That seems completely inappropriate for a number of cases
  432. # [15:18] <annevk> We should add a flag for that
  433. # [15:18] <ondras> annevk: are you aware of any other API to solve the host-css-in-shadow-dom use case?
  434. # [15:19] <annevk> Not really
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  476. # [16:44] <annevk> Does IDL have hooks yet for ArrayBuffer handling and such?
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  501. # [16:57] <TabAtkins> ondras: Both of those are gone.
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  503. # [16:58] <TabAtkins> ondras: Outside CSS just never affects shadow DOM, unless you explicitly reach into the shadow with the ::shadow pseudo-element.
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  505. # [16:58] <TabAtkins> Inheritance *does* still work though, unless you explicitly reset it yourself (such as by using "all:initial;" or something).
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  507. # [17:03] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  559. # [18:14] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: what does "inheritance" mean?
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  567. # [18:26] <dglazkov> Domenic_: I think he meant CSS inheritance
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  569. # [18:27] <Domenic_> dglazkov: what is CSS inheritance though, and how is it different from outside CSS affecting shadow DOM...
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  571. # [18:28] <dglazkov> Domenic_: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-cascade/#inheriting
  572. # [18:29] <Domenic_> ah ok, so e.g. fonts will affect the shadow DOM
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  574. # [18:29] <Domenic_> makes sense
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  591. # [18:57] <annevk> Except <input> and such override it :-(
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  611. # [19:46] <annevk> People, I rewrote most of Encoding to make a little bit more sense
  612. # [19:47] <annevk> So if you find strange bugs, it's highly likely I just introduced them
  613. # [19:47] <annevk> And if so, please tell me so I can get it back to its former rather polished state
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  615. # [19:52] <ondras> TabAtkins: nice, thanks! This kinda makes all available ShadowDOM articles/tutorials obsolete I guess :)
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  622. # [20:22] * SamB goes in search of the current "shadow DOM"-related spec for those not writing Mozilla Chrome
  623. # [20:22] <SamB> er.
  624. # [20:22] <SamB> S/Chrome/chrome/
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  628. # [20:23] <SamB> or specs ...
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  630. # [20:24] <SamB> TabAtkins: is it just me or shouldn't there be a link to the Shadow DOM spec from http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-scoping/ ?
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  655. # [20:54] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: Values will trickle through the tree via inheritance, but selectors can't reach in unless they do so on purpose.
  656. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> SamB: Yeah, there should be, but I didn't want to hunt down a link when I was writing it.
  657. # [20:55] <TabAtkins> ondras: Yeah, that's the peril of writing tutorials for something which is still super-experimental.
  658. # [20:57] <SamB> TabAtkins: maybe http://w3c.github.io/webcomponents/spec/shadow/ or http://www.w3.org/TR/shadow-dom/ would be handy then?
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  660. # [20:57] <TabAtkins> dglazkov: Which link should I use?
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  662. # [20:57] <jsbell> annevk: I haven't spotted any other glitches in Encoding. Nice refactor.
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  665. # [21:01] <Domenic_> No TRs :P
  666. # [21:01] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  668. # [21:03] <jsbell> Did Firefox eliminate new-less constructors recently, or was I dreaming?
  669. # [21:04] <SamB> jsbell: in their javascript code, you mean?
  670. # [21:06] <jsbell> SamB: Yeah. Support for calling DOM constructors like functions instead of w/ new operator. Last I checked FF/IE supported that, Safari/Chrome did not.
  671. # [21:06] <jsbell> I thought I saw something fly by on twitter about it, but literally may have dreamt it.
  672. # [21:07] <SamB> jsbell: oh, I thought maybe you meant internal coding style
  673. # [21:08] <jsbell> Ah, found it... https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=980945
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  675. # [21:13] <SamB> jsbell: only for typed arrays, then?
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  677. # [21:15] <jsbell> SamB: https://twitter.com/annevk/statuses/445864332187168768 and replies made it sound more broad
  678. # [21:15] <ondras> so, the image onload event. is there some way to make sure that actually all the image file data has been transfered?
  679. # [21:15] <ondras> I mean, the browser can fire onload once the image is retrieved and can be displayed
  680. # [21:16] <ondras> but that does not 100% imply that all data has been transfered, right?
  681. # [21:16] <jsbell> SamB: but I see no change in aurora yet, so waiting to see
  682. # [21:16] <SamB> ondras: are you worried it might have loaded only, say, half of the image and then gotten interrupted
  683. # [21:17] <ondras> SamB: no, I am worried that some exif metadata might be located at the end of the file
  684. # [21:17] <ondras> SamB: and I plan on measuring bandwidth by downloading images
  685. # [21:17] <ondras> SamB: so I want to make sure that an X kilobyte file was completely transferred
  686. # [21:18] <SamB> jsbell: I don't see a patch on that bug, anyway, only to fix the in-tree JS
  687. # [21:22] <SamB> ondras: well, the step that sets the state to "completely available" is only supposed to run once the resource has been fetched
  688. # [21:23] <SamB> which is also what sends the load and loadend events
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  690. # [21:24] <SamB> well, I mean, same sequence of steps, all after the resource has been fetched
  691. # [21:25] <SamB> but it seems like this WOULD happen for an interrupted transfer too
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  694. # [21:27] * SamB wonders if it he has what it takes to make the full cross-referencing functionality work in multipage ... he'd presumably need to learn [more?] JavaScript ...
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  707. # [21:55] <ondras> SamB: well the interrupted transfer is not really my case. I am troubled by an jpg image that has (a lot of) exif metadata located after image data.
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  719. # [22:24] <SamB> ondras: maybe you should use other test images?
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  721. # [22:25] <SamB> ondras: but really I don't think the wording in the standard allows the user-agent to take the shortcut you're worried about
  722. # [22:26] <SamB> (also I kind of doubt they're doing much to optimize specifically for huge EXIF)
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  770. # Session Close: Thu Mar 27 00:00:00 2014

The end :)