/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-04-01 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Apr 01 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:02] <Domenic_> Hixie: sounds good re: exception IDs
# [00:04] <Hixie> do you think anyone would go for it?
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# [00:06] <Domenic_> I guess we haven't shown very compelling use cases yet. Although it's clearly better than the current "name" stuff.
# [00:06] * jorendorff is now known as jorendorff_away
# [00:06] <Hixie> well, it's interesting for loggin
# [00:06] <Hixie> g
# [00:06] <Domenic_> I think blink-dev discussed doing something similar for app cache errors?
# [00:07] <Hixie> (though i wonder if the messages aren't good enough in practice)
# [00:07] <Hixie> yeah
# [00:08] * pdr|meeting is now known as pdr
# [00:08] <Domenic_> I think the relying-on-messages argument you made is a strong incentive to do something better.
# [00:09] <Hixie> i'd be worried about how effective it would be. We have enough trouble getting people to just fire the right exception in the first place, let alone the right exception with the right unique code.
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# [00:11] <Domenic_> that's true, hmm. perhaps because "the right exception" gives only incremental benefits so not worth the effort? the question is, would this be worth the effort.
# [00:12] <Domenic_> Blink has recently done a major exception message cleanup so at least their thoughts are with developers on these issues…
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# [00:19] <Domenic_> Wait so innerText is not cross-browser yet?
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# [00:21] <Hixie> innerText is a disaster
# [00:21] <Hixie> it depends on CSS, e.g.
# [00:22] <TabAtkins> Do you mean .textContent, Domenic_ ?
# [00:23] <Domenic_> Nope I meant innerText. Didn't know it was a disaster…
# [00:24] <TabAtkins> Yup, total disaster.
# [00:24] <jsbell> re: exception IDs + proximate cause: as long as we realize that the developer workflow is not "see exception X, search the spec for X, gain enlightenment, fix bug". Rather, it's "see exception X, google X, find the stackoverflow article, copy/paste the fix" :)
# [00:24] <jsbell> Either case benefits from a reasonably unique X, though.
# [00:25] <Domenic_> jsbell: yeah that's a good point to keep in mind. I was in particular thinking about more advanced use cases trying to recover from specific errors and let others bubble.
# [00:27] <wilhelm> WebDriver specs how to get readable text from an element: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html#rendering-text
# [00:27] <wilhelm> It's not pretty.
# [00:29] <Hixie> jsbell: i think the workflow for which this matters is more "script catches unexpected exception x, logs it to server, author looks at aggregate data regarding exceptions to figure out what to fix next"
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# [00:31] <TabAtkins> I think a guid would be fine for this. Why not do a full guid?
# [00:31] <SamB> ewww
# [00:31] <TabAtkins> SamB: It's just for identification purposes.
# [00:31] <Hixie> TabAtkins: full guid is a bit excessively verbose in a log and would make specs look ugly
# [00:31] <Hixie> TabAtkins: we probably only need a fraction of the digits
# [00:32] <TabAtkins> Ok, I guess so.
# [00:32] <TabAtkins> Just want it large enough that I can randomly-generate it and still be assured that it's unique.
# [00:32] <Hixie> as an anecdotal data point, the freepascal compiler guys use YYYYMMDDNN for their internal errors.
# [00:32] <Hixie> i don't think we should use that because we have less coordination
# [00:33] <TabAtkins> That doesn't help multiple specs, yeah.
# [00:33] <Hixie> but it's the kind of size identifier that i think would make sense
# [00:33] <TabAtkins> You can get much smaller if you can coordinate. You need more than 10 digits for randomness to work.
# [00:33] <Hixie> might be better for the IDs to be [spec author][whatever] where [spec author] is two digits and [whatever] is, well, whatever.
# [00:34] <TabAtkins> Still need coordination for that.
# [00:34] <Hixie> well some minimal coordination is fine
# [00:34] <SamB> yeah, two digits should be enough for everyone
# [00:34] <Hixie> (i mean, we have that today for exceptions)
# [00:34] <TabAtkins> Hixie: We have massive overlap today for exceptions, which is what we're trying to avoid.
# [00:35] <Hixie> we are?
# [00:35] <TabAtkins> SamB: let "digit" be alphnum.
# [00:35] <TabAtkins> I thought that was the point, yes.
# [00:35] <Hixie> not sure what you mean by "avoid overlap"
# [00:35] <Hixie> i thought the goal here was just to provide uniquely identifiable IDs per exception throw site
# [00:35] <TabAtkins> Today, the "coordination" is "fire one of the errors from this list".
# [00:36] <Hixie> by coordination, i mean that today if you want a new exception you just ask anne to addi t
# [00:36] <TabAtkins> This list does not get extended by people. It's short and more or less static.
# [00:36] <SamB> clearly sha1:file:line:column
# [00:36] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: not great for discriminatory catching
# [00:36] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: I'm not sure what you're replying to.
# [00:36] <Hixie> SamB: i do like the idea of hashing the final result somehow so that the spec author part is not derivable
# [00:36] <SamB> I was kidding
# [00:36] <Domenic_> Sorry got offline for a bit, replying to guid idea
# [00:37] <SamB> I mean what is a "throw site"
# [00:37] <TabAtkins> Hixie: That's why you choose enough digits that the ID can be randomly generated without fear of collision.
# [00:37] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: I thought the idea was to be able to tell better what place the exception came from. A guid identifying each place that can throw an error does that, no?
# [00:37] <TabAtkins> SamB: A line in the spec that throws something.
# [00:37] <Hixie> another option is we just make a web service for ourselves that vends unique IDs
# [00:37] <Hixie> then it could trivially avoid duplicates
# [00:38] <SamB> and without coordination, people *will* end up seeing values without being able to find out any indication of their meaning ...
# [00:38] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that would let you be smaller without collision fear.
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# [00:39] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: my use case is being able to write catch clauses that only catch a specific expected error and let others bubble or hit window.onerror.
# [00:39] <SamB> (don't tell me you've never had a GUID for which you couldn't find any corresponding name ...)
# [00:41] <Domenic_> So human readable, yet unique, names would give more readable catch code.
# [00:42] <Hixie> are we thinking integers here, or strings?
# [00:43] <Domenic_> I was thinking strings
# [00:43] * jonlee_ is now known as jonlee_|afk
# [00:43] <Domenic_> Integers for IDs seems bad in general
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# [00:49] <aretecode> I love to learn, feel free to teach me what you are the most passionate about :)
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# [00:55] <zcorpan> the id generator could take 4 random words from this channel from the past 48h. then make sure that google brings up no results for that identifier, and that it hasn't been generated before.
# [00:56] <zcorpan> choosecatchesalthoughpolyfill
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# [01:03] <SamB> zcorpan: that doesn't help the reader to make any sense of anything
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# [01:03] <zcorpan> SamB: i didn't see that as a requirement above
# [01:04] <zcorpan> SamB: i guess it will make the reader go "wtf" and then google it and find relevant information, though
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# [01:10] <Hixie> SamB: the .message is the way the reader makes sense of something
# [01:10] <Hixie> zcorpan: that's a bit long, ideally these should be short so the don't make specs unreadable
# [01:11] <jsbell> (Guru meditation number: 1314c98d-8667-4599-a4ac-ffc56420d7ba)
# [01:11] <SamB> Hixie: point ...
# [01:11] <Hixie> jsbell: yeah. but shorter. :-)
# [01:12] <SamB> so, how to keep the search results from being flooded with people asking about the exceptions rather than what one might actually want to find?
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# [01:12] <TabAtkins> A stack overflow link about it would be fine
# [01:13] <zcorpan> we set up google alerts for the ids and give useful answers on stackoverflow
# [01:14] <zcorpan> Hixie: the generator could just try fewer words or other words until it finds an id shorter than X characters
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# [01:43] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/cgi/exception-id-generator/
# [01:43] <Hixie> all up to y'all now if we actually want to do this
# [01:44] <Hixie> i checked and that won't generate any duplicates for at least the next 100,000 IDs.
# [01:44] <Hixie> (after 100,000 it started getting a little crazy to check for duplicates the way i was doing it)
# [01:45] <zewt> Hixie: ... what
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# [01:45] <zewt> is it april 1 in your time, heh
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# [01:45] <Hixie> hm?
# [01:45] <zewt> re: link looks like joke
# [01:46] <Hixie> why?
# [01:46] <zewt> how does it not look like joke. heh
# [01:46] <Hixie> well it's not very funny to start with? :-)
# [01:46] <zewt> re: if an API expects me to use opaque strings in my source code as exception identifiers, API will be shot directly into sun
# [01:46] <zewt> no april 1 "jokes" are funny
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# [01:47] <Hixie> sounds like you missed the earlier conversation
# [01:47] <zewt> whatever it was, this result seems catastrophic enough to make me dubious of its conclusion :P
# [01:48] <TabAtkins> Hixie - Bikeshed style: The user agent must throw an <code>SyntaxError</code> exception with ID "<dfn exception-code>3d7geaa26h</dfn>".
# [01:48] <zewt> but I will happily scroll back
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# [01:50] <Hixie> TabAtkins: thanks, added
# [01:51] * jonlee_|afk is now known as jonlee_
# [01:52] <Hixie> uh
# [01:52] * Hixie fixes the error in the bikeshed one where he'd hardcoded the code TabAtkins gave
# [01:52] <TabAtkins> hahaha
# [01:56] <Hixie> ok i generated 1,575,472 codes in the order it's going to generate them, and still no dupes
# [01:56] <Hixie> so i'm pretty confident that this will work out ok, dupe-wise
# [01:56] <zewt> it sounds like the core problem it's trying to solve is "it's hard to find where the unexpected thing you're seeing is defined in a spec somewhere, so google for this magic thing"
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# [01:57] <zewt> that sort of sounds like an ineffective whack-a-mole, though; exceptions are one extremely tiny subset of "can't find this thing in a spec" (or on stackoverflow, or whatever)
# [01:57] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah, you have to gen about 60M before you should expect the first dupe.
# [01:57] <TabAtkins> zewt: That's one reason, not all.
# [01:58] <TabAtkins> It's not even Domenic_'s primary reason.
# [01:58] <zewt> what i suspect would be the actual result (to describe my initial reaction) is that people would start using them in code as part of exception handlers, which would be completely horrible since they're not human-readable
# [01:58] <Hixie> zewt: the main reason is that right now, InvalidStateErr is fired from zillions of places
# [01:58] <Hixie> zewt: and you don't know which is the proximate cause of a particular one you're holding onto
# [01:58] <Hixie> not really clear what better way to solve this
# [01:58] <TabAtkins> Especially if you grab it from window.error or the like.
# [01:58] <Hixie> yeah
# [01:59] <Hixie> TabAtkins: it's been my experience that if i don't actually check it, there'll be some error in my logic and the dupes will abound, so i felt better actually checking it :-)
# [02:00] * Hixie closes all his related tabs and windows until Domenic_ manages to convince anyone else to use this
# [02:00] <zewt> i always just log a stack trace to the server (we really need better stack trace support) and moving on, since at least with the way I write things, if an exception gets to window (unless it's an event delegation thing, which it isn't for onerror), that's not the place where I'm going to examine the exception and try to recover from it
# [02:00] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Certainly, just letting you know what your expected range will be.
# [02:00] <zewt> (some interesting half-edits in that run-on sentence)
# [02:01] <zewt> for the window.onerror example, are we talking about parsing an error log later on, or programmatically doing something with the magic string?
# [02:02] <Hixie> TabAtkins: why 60 million, btw?
# [02:03] <Hixie> TabAtkins: what's your definition of "expect"?
# [02:03] <TabAtkins> 36^5, the sqrt of 36^10.
# [02:03] <TabAtkins> 50% expectation
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# [02:03] <Hixie> oh, i see
# [02:03] <Hixie> the alphabet only actually has 16 characters
# [02:03] <Hixie> so 16^5
# [02:03] <TabAtkins> Oh, you're only genning hex?
# [02:03] <TabAtkins> I didnt' notice that
# [02:04] <TabAtkins> That's only about 1M then.
# [02:04] <Hixie> er wait
# [02:04] <Hixie> not 16...
# [02:05] <Hixie> oops
# [02:05] <Hixie> it is 16
# [02:05] <Hixie> but it's supposed to be more
# [02:05] <Hixie> 26 or so
# [02:05] <Hixie> 2346789abcdefghjkmnpqrtwxy
# [02:05] <TabAtkins> Ah, the easy-to-distinguish alphanums.
# [02:06] <Hixie> yeah, that's the idea
# [02:06] <Hixie> hm
# [02:06] <Hixie> i need this to be a power of 2 for the logic to work better
# [02:06] * Hixie wonders whether to add or remove
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# [02:07] <TabAtkins> What's your logic?
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# [02:08] <Hixie> geenerate hmax sha 512 of increasing number, use the first n bits to generate a 10 character string
# [02:08] <TabAtkins> Interesting.
# [02:09] <Hixie> i can add z5suv back in but i'm still short a character...
# [02:09] <zewt> just reading /dev/urandom will probably give you equally non-repeating results, without depending on a last-used-number state
# [02:09] <TabAtkins> Why not just generate a num between 0 and 26^10, then encode it in base 26?
# [02:09] <Hixie> really don't want to add il1o0
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# [02:09] <TabAtkins> And yes, the lowercase z/s aren't really confusable for 2/5.
# [02:10] <zewt> (since /dev/urandom these days is basically just a crypto hash on top of entropy)
# [02:10] <Hixie> i like to avoid actual randomness in my code
# [02:11] <TabAtkins> You're effectively grabbing randomness by taking an arbitrary chunk of a hash.
# [02:11] <Hixie> right
# [02:11] <Hixie> reproducible "randomness"
# [02:11] <zewt> i prefer to avoid state that has to be persisted, myself
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# [02:14] <zewt> also a bunch of new complexity if two clients might race and generate from the same index
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# [02:14] <TabAtkins> Yup.
# [02:15] <zewt> (which itself can be really hard to write tests for; i hate writing tests for things like locking and atomicity)
# [02:15] <Hixie> locking files is a solved problem :-)
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# [02:16] <zewt> with a solution that's much more complex than open('/dev/urandom').read(16) :----------)
# [02:16] <zewt> i guess it comes down to what your environment provides, and how much you trust it
# [02:17] <zewt> (i don't include "make sure /dev/urandom is really random" in my tests, after all)
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# [02:18] <zewt> ("really random" as in "not /dev/zero")
# [02:18] <zewt> (in case someone was going to nit about PRNGs)
# [02:18] <TabAtkins> Any system that doesn't implement a decent /dev/urandom would be *super* insecure anyway.
# [02:19] <zewt> i tend to suspect security inexperience in people who still use /dev/random because it's "more secure", heh
# [02:20] <Hixie> locking files is like lines of code including importing the relevant constants and unlocking...
# [02:20] <Hixie> like three lines, even
# [02:20] <Hixie> ok, now using a 32 character alphabet.
# [02:21] <Hixie> using the first 5 bits of each of the first ten bytes of the hmac sha 512 of numbers in sequential order.
# [02:21] <Hixie> bbiab
# [02:22] <zewt> maybe your environment has additional helpers for the busywork (blocking if the lockfile already exists, cleaning up if the pid contained in the lockfile doesn't exist, etc)
# [02:23] <TabAtkins> It's perl, so that's plausible.
# [02:23] <zewt> also the need to atomically write the state file containing the last-used index (write new file, sync, rename), which is something all languages really should provide, but few do
# [02:25] <TabAtkins> While you're locked, that works anyway, right?
# [02:27] * ojan_away is now known as ojan
# [02:28] <zewt> if the machine crashes, you don't want to reboot and come back up with a zero-byte file
# [02:28] <TabAtkins> Ah, right.
# [02:28] <zewt> (restore from backup and you lose that day's index delta)
# [02:29] <zewt> ''.join('23456789abcdefghijkmnpqrstuvwxyz'[ord(x) >> 3] for x in hashlib.sha512(open('/dev/urandom').read(32)).digest()[0:10]) # one-liners are evil, even in python
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# [06:00] <Hixie> i ended up testing 30,058,310 codes with the new algorithm, no dupes.
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# [06:01] <Hixie> (by tab's maths, there would be a 50% chance of a dupe at about 33 million, if i understand it right)
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# [07:26] <Hixie> man, the tokeniser sure does have a lot of states
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# [08:54] <sangwhan> TabAtkins: is unprefixing transitions *and* transforms both covered under the umbrella of this bug? https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=154772
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# [09:14] <Domenic_> Hixie: sounds like a plan, will devote some time to it eventually. I need to do a write up with use cases, possibilities (e.g. generated vs. human readable), impact on existing/future specs, etc.
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# [12:01] <a-ja> TabAtkins: ping
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# [12:08] <a-ja> TabAtkins: unping....will catch you later
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# [12:08] <Ms2ger> The new css spec style sheet is so funny...
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# [12:23] <hsivonen> looks like the support status markers on CSS specs haven't been updated to reflect the demise of Presto and Blink forking off of WebKit
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# [12:42] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I don't know what to do about bugzilla.validator.nu cookies. The urlbase and cookiepath settings look right to me.
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# [12:53] <smaug____> oh, hsivonen is alive
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# [12:55] <hsivonen> is this where I'm supposed to say that rumors of my demise have been exaggerated?
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# [12:59] <Ms2ger> There were rumours?
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# [13:34] <Ms2ger> hsivonen, oh, better news than your death, congratulations :)
# [13:34] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: thanks
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# [13:35] <zcorpan> what's the news?
# [13:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan: a baby (that is, I'm now back from paternity leave)
# [13:36] <zcorpan> hsivonen: ok, congrats!
# [13:36] <hsivonen> zcorpan: thanks
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# [13:38] <smaug____> congratulations
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# [13:39] <hsivonen> smaug____: thanks
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# [15:58] <hsivonen> wow. there's now a community group for MPEG-2 in-band captioning in <video>
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# [16:00] <darobin> there's a community group for everything
# [16:01] <Ms2ger> Sounds more like a business group
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# [16:18] <zcorpan> heycam|away: maybe we should drop support for webidl in blink
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# [18:16] <yoav> SimonSapin: Around?
# [18:16] <SimonSapin> yes
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# [18:17] <yoav> Got a Q regarding http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#consume-an-escaped-code-point
# [18:17] <yoav> Also: OMG WUT IS THIS BG
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# [18:18] <SimonSapin> It’s the new spec design :)
# [18:18] * TabAtkins is also here. TabAtkins is so alone...
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# [18:18] <yoav> TabAtkins: Hey
# [18:18] <yoav> I'm assuming the design is your fault
# [18:18] <yoav> Is '\r' an escaped code point?
# [18:19] <TabAtkins> \r is a carriage return?
# [18:19] <SimonSapin> yoav: yes, it represents 'r'
# [18:19] <SimonSapin> in CSS
# [18:19] <Ms2ger> Wat
# [18:19] <SimonSapin> "anything else : Return the current input code point. "
# [18:20] <TabAtkins> Oh, yeah, if you literally type \r in a CSS document, it's the same as just typing r.
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# [18:21] <yoav> So why is "(max-width: \r6000px)" is parsed OK in anything that's not my MQ parser?
# [18:21] <yoav> Is the \r getting pre processed?
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> Because browsers' existing MQ parsers are usually crazy-stupid.
# [18:21] <TabAtkins> And/or yeah, they're stupidly interpreting \r as a CR, which is just whitespace.
# [18:22] <SimonSapin> yoav: do you have a test case?
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# [18:22] <SimonSapin> if a JS literal string is involved, it does its own backslash-unescaping first
# [18:23] <yoav> SimonSapin: Ahh
# [18:23] <yoav> That explains it
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> Layers upon layers of escapes.
# [18:23] <TabAtkins> I like that HTML has a completely different escape syntax. It avoids the stacked-escapes problem.
# [18:23] <yoav> "The escaped onion" would make a good children's book title
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# [18:25] <yoav> SimonSapin: OK, cool. That's what was messing me up
# [18:26] <yoav> So, '\r' is 'r' and everything works fine
# [18:26] <SimonSapin> try "\\r" in a JS string
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# [18:28] <yoav> Any cool examples for escaped MQs I can use for testing?
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# [18:31] <SimonSapin> hum, replace an character on an identifier with '\' + hex value of the code point + ' '
# [18:31] <SimonSapin> add leading zeros to go up to 6 hex digits
# [18:31] <SimonSapin> add leading zeros to go up to 6 hex digits and omit the space
# [18:31] <yoav> SimonSapin: Trying "(max-width:6000px \u0020 )" and getting nothing
# [18:32] <SimonSapin> omit the space if the next char is not an hex digit
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# [18:32] <SimonSapin> there is no u
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# [18:32] <SimonSapin> and escapes (unless in a quoted string) give you identifiers
# [18:33] <SimonSapin> also: replace any non-hex-digit character in an identifier by '\' followed by itself
# [18:33] <SimonSapin> and see https://github.com/SimonSapin/css-parsing-tests
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# [18:34] <SimonSapin> eg. https://github.com/SimonSapin/css-parsing-tests/blob/101c330cb06b3e6de7f30509b4237421b94e3f28/component_value_list.json#L25-L38
# [18:34] <SimonSapin> https://github.com/SimonSapin/css-parsing-tests/blob/101c330cb06b3e6de7f30509b4237421b94e3f28/component_value_list.json#L25-L52, actually
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# [18:36] <yoav> SimonSapin & TabAtkins: Is it normal that neither Firefox nor Chrome actually match MQs with that? Or am I doing it wrong?
# [18:37] <SimonSapin> yoav: with what? (Test case please)
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# [18:38] <TabAtkins> "(max-width:6000px \0020)" *should* match nothing, because you've got an ident hanging out there.
# [18:38] <yoav> http://jsbin.com/texaqabu/3/edit
# [18:38] <TabAtkins> An ident whose value is a single U+0020 character.
# [18:39] <TabAtkins> yoav: What characters are those?\
# [18:39] <SimonSapin> yoav: CSS numeric escapes are always hex
# [18:39] <SimonSapin> a 0 prefix does not make it octal
# [18:39] <yoav> I was going with "px"
# [18:40] <SimonSapin> that’d be \70\78 in hex
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# [18:40] <yoav> That's dumb of me
# [18:40] <TabAtkins> ^_^
# [18:41] <yoav> OK!
# [18:41] <yoav> Breakthrough
# [18:41] <yoav> Working in Firefox
# [18:41] <yoav> No dice in Chrome tho, but that gives me something to fix!
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> Yeah, as mentioned previously, our MQ parser is mega-broken.
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# [20:15] <SamB> hmm, should I alias mediawiki's UTF-8 tracking bug as "UTF-8", "utf-8", or "utf8" ... practically all existing aliases are lowercase ...
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# [20:19] <SamB> oh, wait, it's also about Unicode so I'll just alias it as "unicode" ...
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# [20:32] <Hixie> annevk: yt?
# [20:32] <annevk> Hixie: yes
# [20:32] <Hixie> annevk: how do you feel about putting document.title in DOM
# [20:32] <annevk> Hixie: your timezone for the next seven days
# [20:32] <Hixie> annevk: it needs to interact with SVG and HTML <title>
# [20:32] <annevk> Hixie: can't HTML just do that?
# [20:33] <annevk> Hixie: or does the SVG WG still pretend it can have SVG without HTML? (because they cannot, they don't have an event loop and things)
# [20:33] <Hixie> annevk: i could, but it seems weird for HTML to be defining some SVG-specific stuff, so i was thinking HTML and SVG would hook into something DOM specifies
# [20:33] <Hixie> maybe i should just do it and not worry about it though
# [20:33] <annevk> Hixie: I'm happy to blur the lines further, either way
# [20:34] * SamB has always found html <title> rather magical
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# [20:36] <SamB> (Well, ever since I discovered that you can't get the same results with custom XML and CSS)
# [20:38] <Hixie> well all the useful elements in HTML are "magical" by that definition
# [20:40] <SamB> in the sense that they have semantics as well as presentation, sure
# [20:41] <Hixie> in the sense that the user agent is required to do stuff with them more than you can do with custom XML and CSS
# [20:41] <Hixie> e.g. <form>, <a>, <input>, <video>, ...
# [20:42] <SamB> you are clearly using a different sense of the term "useful" than I am
# [20:42] <Hixie> why?
# [20:43] <SamB> well, mine includes stuff like <h2>
# [20:44] <Hixie> s/useful/interesting/?
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# [20:49] <SamB> anyway, it might have been 15 years ago that I got the idea "<title> is magical" into my head ...
# [20:50] <Hixie> well, i'm not a fan of the word "magical", but <title> has non-mundane behaviour, certainly
# [20:50] <Hixie> like <details>, <output>, <progres>, <canvas>, etc
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# [21:06] <manu-> TabAtkins: I totally love what you've done w/ the non-element selectors spec: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors-nonelement/
# [21:07] <manu-> (W3C Stylesheets hacked) https://twitter.com/jirkakosek/status/451067752703197184/photo/1
# [21:07] <Ms2ger> manu-, *all dev.w3.org/csswg/ specs
# [21:08] <manu-> It really is a step in the right direction... the dot-com bubble just messed everything up, glad to see a move back to fundamentals.
# [21:09] <Ms2ger> It's kinda unimaginative... Same thing from last year
# [21:09] <manu-> oooh, right... April fools - forgot about that... had turned off all of my news feeds waiting for it to blow over.
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# [21:24] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Yeah, I'd forgotten to prepare anything new. I'll actually do a new joke next year, I promise. ^_^
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# [21:52] <annevk> TabAtkins: but will it resolve?
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# [21:59] <TabAtkins> annevk: It'll take a year, but yeah.
# [21:59] <dglazkov> Hixie: with MessagePort, how does one side realize that the other side is no longer listening (due to untimely demise, for instance)
# [21:59] <dglazkov> ?
# [22:00] <annevk> dglazkov: you don't, you need to implement ping
# [22:00] <annevk> dglazkov: reason is GC
# [22:00] <dglazkov> okay
# [22:00] <annevk> Which reminds me, at some point we need to figure out the SW story around garbage collection
# [22:01] <SamB> SW?
# [22:01] <dglazkov> why is GC being detectable a problem?
# [22:01] <annevk> dglazkov: there have been some proposals on the position to not expose GC / make memory leaks likelier
# [22:01] * SamB does not like memory leaks
# [22:01] <annevk> dglazkov: exposing the details of GC is bad as it might lead to having to define GC
# [22:02] <annevk> dglazkov: ask TC39
# [22:02] <dglazkov> annevk: that doesn't seem bad, just hard
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# [22:02] <annevk> dglazkov: why not, we have changed GC strategies many many times over the years due to it not being exposed
# [22:02] <annevk> dglazkov: if it's exposed we cannot change strategies
# [22:02] <dglazkov> that's not necessarily true, right?
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# [22:03] <annevk> I'm not sure I can speak much to all of the constraints here. I do know it's been one of the things we have tried very hard to avoid ever doing.
# [22:03] <SamB> hmm, that sounds kind of like a silly reason to have no way to detect a broken socket
# [22:04] <SamB> just make sure the GC is already sufficiently hard to predict
# [22:04] <annevk> "just"
# [22:05] <SamB> what, you mean it isn't?
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# [22:05] <SamB> it's not like there's refcounting involved like in CPython ...
# [22:05] <dglazkov> annevk: totally understand. It seems though the times are changing. With where asm.js is going, exposing GC in one way or another looks inevitable.
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# [22:07] <annevk> dglazkov: I don't know, would have to ask dherman, but exposing to asm.js does not necessarily mean we want to expose it higher-level too
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# [22:07] <dglazkov> yup
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# [22:11] <SamB> annevk: I guess you must be worried about exposing what happens when a whole compartment goes away?
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# [22:12] <annevk> SamB: exposing GC in general
# [22:13] <SamB> what else is there that's presently deterministic enough that stuff might grow to depend on it?
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# [22:14] <annevk> Anything? Content has a tendency to rely on anything we expose, whether intentional or not
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# [22:17] <SamB> I mean, what other situations can cause objects to be collected more-or-less immediately, rather than whenever the GC finally kicks in?
# [22:19] <annevk> Depends on your GC
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# [22:24] <smaug____> dglazkov: what has asm.js to do with gc?
# [22:26] <smaug____> asm.js makes such js that gc doesn't have to run at all
# [22:29] <smaug____> SamB: you might implement the whole system using a cycle collector and traditional refcounting
# [22:29] <smaug____> SamB: then objects would usually die when the last ref goes away
# [22:30] <smaug____> and in case of cycles, when the collector runs
# [22:30] <SamB> smaug____: who would be stupid enough to actually do it that way
# [22:30] <smaug____> what is wrong with that?
# [22:31] <SamB> refcounting is actually pretty slow
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# [22:31] <smaug____> there are algorithms to optimize out most of it
# [22:31] <smaug____> and GC is hard if you have lots of objects
# [22:31] <smaug____> since GC deals with live objects and CC only possible garbage objects
# [22:32] <SamB> hmm
# [22:33] <jsbell> annevk FWIW: dbh = indexedDB.open('db', 1); indexedDB.open('db', 2).onsuccess = function(){alert('GC-or-equivalent must have happened');}; dbh = null;
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# [22:33] <smaug____> best performing systems are, at least per certain literature and research, combination of gc and cc
# [22:33] <SamB> I guess refcounting *does* at least only do the extra work on objects that are probably of interest
# [22:33] <annevk> jsbell: you don't define that in terms of event loops and lifetimes?
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# [22:35] <jsbell> annevk: The spec says "If the connection is GCed .... the connection is closed", which unblocks the second connection.
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# [22:36] <annevk> Oh my
# [22:36] <smaug____> whaaat?
# [22:36] * smaug____ files a spec bug
# [22:37] <jsbell> Yeah. I was poking around for precedent for "what if a transaction could waitUntil() a Promise, but the Promise was never resolved"
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# [23:02] <annevk> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eT7sl7bR1A oh man
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# [23:02] <annevk> I wonder if there's a 2048 homescreen
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# [23:09] <jgraham> annevk: Higher score == better apps you can launch?
# [23:09] <jgraham> And 2048 gives you the browser
# [23:09] <annevk> jgraham: yeah, maybe one screen has the game, and another has the apps available thus far
# [23:10] <jgraham> No, the game tiles are the launchers
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# [23:12] <annevk> oh man
# [23:12] <annevk> so at some point you can no longer access 1024 until you hit it again?
# [23:13] <Ms2ger> Hmm?
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# [23:14] <annevk> the app corresponding to 1024 if that was unclear
# [23:14] <annevk> I still haven't hit 8192 btw
# [23:14] <annevk> got 4096 several times
# [23:14] <annevk> I get sloppy after a while :/
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# [23:24] <hober> threes ftw :)
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# [23:28] <zewt> refcounting is comparatively slow, but in most layers it doesn't matter today
# [23:29] <zewt> in systems where you can get away with not breaking cycles (eg. not the web), it also has the huge advantage of being deterministic
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# [23:29] <Hixie> slow relative to what? managed memory and walking the entire heap every few seconds?
# [23:30] <Hixie> or slow relative to a defined ownership model?
# [23:30] <zewt> relative to mark and sweep, since you don't have to adjust refcounts all the time (though I guess that also depends on how smart you can be about optimizing those out)
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# [23:30] <Hixie> really? do you have data on that?
# [23:30] <zewt> no, just my recollection
# [23:31] <Hixie> refcounting is like 2 extra instructions per assignment
# [23:31] <zewt> but if true, I still think it's irrelevant today, except maybe for really performance-sensitive stuff
# [23:31] <Hixie> compared to walking the entire heap, that seems cheap.
# [23:31] <jgraham> hober: There you are again promoting iOS rather than the open web ;)
# [23:31] <SamB> Hixie: that doesn't happen every assignment though ...
# [23:31] <Hixie> true, but still
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# [23:32] <zewt> it's an extra two writes, and in some (also non-web) cases an atomic write (don't know how expensive those are today)
# [23:32] <Hixie> i have no data one way or the other, i just find it surprising
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# [23:32] <Hixie> i would have thought refcounting would win hands down in terms of raw cpu cycles spent on memory management over the lifetime of a task
# [23:32] <zewt> i'm sure it depends massively on the access patterns and language, so I'm overgeneralizing for sure
# [23:33] <Hixie> i mean, wouldn't a GC model require at least as many instructions per assignment as well?
# [23:33] <zewt> not following
# [23:33] <Hixie> i guess you could just know where the pointers are
# [23:34] <Hixie> if it's a strongly typed system
# [23:34] <Hixie> and walk it that way
# [23:34] <zewt> if you have a memory model where you can walk around and look at pointers (like you need for that), "x = y" is simply what it says, set the storage for x to a pointer to y
# [23:35] * Hixie usually just uses a defined ownership model, which seems faster than either :-)
# [23:35] <zewt> for refcounting, you have to say "if x was set to something, decrease its refcount" and then "increase y's refcount" after the assignment
# [23:35] <zewt> which might also mean a branch
# [23:35] <zewt> definitely faster, it just tends to lose on other fronts :P
# [23:36] <Hixie> yeah, it's definitely not a perfect solution :-)
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# [23:36] <Hixie> i find it makes me think more about the design though
# [23:36] <Hixie> which is a win
# [23:37] <zewt> i grew up on C++, i guess I should be a little sad that I almost never use it these days
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# [23:40] <Hixie> i spent a decade or more writing lots of perl
# [23:41] <zewt> i avoided that trap
# [23:41] <Hixie> but recently i've come to realise that for anything serious, I really prefer a strongly typed non-GCed true OO natively compiled modern language
# [23:41] <zewt> is there such a thing?
# [23:41] <Hixie> http://ian.hixie.ch/programming/
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# [23:41] <jgraham> (I think this is where someone says that there is no strongly typed OO language)
# [23:41] <jgraham> (which indeed zewt did)
# [23:41] <zewt> i've spent enough time at a high level to find things like closures hard to live without, and closures essentially require GC
# [23:42] <zewt> jgraham: what I meant is "modern"
# [23:42] <jgraham> Rust has closures
# [23:42] <Hixie> C++ does closures without GC
# [23:42] <Hixie> as do some variants of ObjectPascal (sadly not the variant i'm using, yet.)
# [23:42] <zewt> i haven't touched any of the "C++digitdigit" things (since I don't think they'll go anywhere, not to the level of availability of real C++)
# [23:42] <jgraham> (it doesn't do OO but unless you are implementing the DOM it doesn't seem to matter. And for implementing the DOM we will probably get single inheritance)
# [23:42] <Ms2ger> Hixie, Rust might be interesting to you
# [23:43] <gsnedders> Rust is an odd type of OO, though
# [23:43] <Hixie> Ms2ger: i find the rust language to be a bit weird to read.
# [23:43] <jgraham> Rust currently has typeclasses rather than inheritance
# [23:44] <Hixie> Ms2ger: (too much like perl in its liberal use of unusual punctuation)
# [23:44] <zewt> i have trouble visualizing closures without GC to handle the locals attached to the closure
# [23:44] <gsnedders> zewt: I dunno, I thought this a few years ago, yet now almost all embedded platforms with a C++ compiler support C++11.
# [23:44] <jgraham> Most of the punctuation is gone
# [23:44] <Ms2ger> Hixie, that's been improved a little... @ is gone, at least
# [23:44] <gsnedders> zewt: When a decade ago many didn't support stuff as basic as namespaces.
# [23:44] <zewt> gsnedders: msvc?
# [23:44] <jgraham> Well @ at least
# [23:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: Is it really typecalsses? They didn't seem to quite be typeclasses last time I looked.
# [23:45] <Hixie> Ms2ger: still has a long way to go. consider that my favourite language has so little punctuation it doesn't even use { } for blocks :-P
# [23:45] <zewt> pascal? :P
# [23:45] <zewt> (don't say yes)
# [23:45] <gsnedders> zewt: They support most of it now
# [23:45] <Ms2ger> Yes
# [23:45] <Hixie> (old python was pretty good in this regard, though modern python has taken a bit of a turn for the punctuationy)
# [23:45] <Hixie> zewt: modern variants thereof, but yeah
# [23:45] <zewt> my only major, fundamental issue with python is the indentation block gimmick
# [23:46] <jgraham> I have used perl (and lived to tell the tale) and Rust, and Rust doesn't use punctuation like Perl
# [23:46] <Hixie> zewt: that and it's just not a fast language
# [23:46] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah, it's not at the level of perl.
# [23:46] <zewt> which means it structurally has no way to do inline functions, and it can't do the inverted-template thing of php and ruby
# [23:46] <Ms2ger> Hixie, it does tend to follow C conventions for that, to avoid scaring the C programmers too much :)
# [23:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: At least most things claim traits aren't quite type classes.
# [23:46] <jgraham> Like the usage in Rust generally follows straightforward patterns
# [23:46] <zewt> Hixie: it's extremely fast to develop in; fast to execute I don't know (except that it's never been a problem for me)
# [23:47] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well I don't exactly know
# [23:47] <Hixie> the problem with rust is that i look at some random rust and i can't tell what it's doing off the top of my head
# [23:47] <Hixie> in that respect it's like perl
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# [23:47] <Hixie> e.g. code like: fn ascending<M: MutableMap<uint, uint>>(map: &mut M, n_keys: uint) { ... }
# [23:48] <zewt> :|
# [23:48] <Ms2ger> That's not the most readable of rust :)
# [23:48] * gsnedders finds that perfectly readable…
# [23:48] <Hixie> the "map: &mut M" part in particular
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# [23:48] <Ms2ger> Argument map of type &mut M
# [23:48] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [23:48] <gsnedders> (And I've not touched that much Rust)
# [23:48] <Ms2ger> For M a type parameter that fulfills MutableMap<uint, uint>
# [23:48] <Hixie> what is "&mut M" ?
# [23:48] <Ms2ger> Mutable pointer to M
# [23:49] <Ms2ger> (non-owning)
# [23:49] <jgraham> A mutable borrowed pointer to M
# [23:49] <Hixie> mutable pointer?
# [23:49] <Hixie> as opposed to?
# [23:49] <Ms2ger> Immutable
# [23:49] <jgraham> An immutable pointer
# [23:49] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Oh, then I misunderstood what it meant, so maybe not so readable :)
# [23:49] <Hixie> is an immutable pointer just a constant reference?
# [23:49] <Ms2ger> Stronger
# [23:49] <zewt> "immutable pointer" sounds like "reference" (c++)
# [23:49] <jgraham> You can only have one mutable pointer to an object in scope at a time so that the compiler can reason about lifetimes
# [23:49] <Ms2ger> It also guarantees that there are no mutable pointers to that value
# [23:50] <jgraham> (that might be wrong)
# [23:50] <Ms2ger> You can only have one mutable pointer to an object in scope at a time so that you don't have data races
# [23:50] <jgraham> Yeah, that makes more sense
# [23:50] <SimonSapin> Hixie: yes. Rust makes stuff constant by default, you need the 'mut' keyword to change that. (Opposite of C/C++ and the 'const' keyword.)
# [23:50] <zewt> mutable pointer as in const foo *x or mutable pointer as in foo *const x?
# [23:51] <Ms2ger> You can mutate what's behind it
# [23:51] <jgraham> zewt: As in the thing it points to is mutable using that reference
# [23:51] <Hixie> so "mut" is more like the opposite of C++ const than it is like pascal argument "var" or the opposite of pascal argument "const"?
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# [23:51] <jgraham> Rust doesn't have pointer arithmetic
# [23:51] * Hixie always thought the C++ "const" thing was a bit weird
# [23:51] <Ms2ger> I haven't done pascal in 6 years or so, no idea :)
# [23:51] <gsnedders> zewt: foo *const x if I remember which way around they are. :P
# [23:52] <zewt> yeah I have to think about it too heh
# [23:52] <gsnedders> zewt: i.e., &x is constant
# [23:52] <Hixie> another line of random rust, no idea what this does at all: vec!(~"", ~"20")
# [23:52] <zewt> looks like a smiley
# [23:52] <jgraham> The ! means that vec is a macro
# [23:52] <zewt> if a peculiar one
# [23:52] <jgraham> ~"" is an owned pointer to the empty string
# [23:53] <jgraham> No idea what the vec macro does
# [23:53] <gsnedders> zewt: essentially all you have is foo * const and const foo * const in Rust
# [23:54] <Ms2ger> vec!() is like []
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# [23:54] <Hixie> anyway. i haven't studied rust much yet. i will eventually. i expect it'll be similar to Go, though, which is to say, a lot of interesting ideas, some really bad decisions, and odd syntax, the total of which isn't really interesting enough to me :-)
# [23:54] <Ms2ger> It constructs a new Vec, which is a growable vector
# [23:55] <Ms2ger> I hope we're getting better syntax for that at some point
# [23:55] <zewt> how about []
# [23:55] <zewt> just saying :P
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# [23:56] <zewt> i'm skeptical of any language I can't read intuitively, without having to study first
# [23:56] <Ms2ger> Yeah, that's used for a type that's currently being transitioned to being a non-growable vector
# [23:56] <Ms2ger> It's confusing right now :)
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# [23:57] <zewt> (not to say read every nuance of, but to a reasonable level)
# [23:57] <zewt> afk
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# [23:59] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# Session Close: Wed Apr 02 00:00:01 2014

The end :)