/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-04-04 / end

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  45. # [01:06] <annevk> cbiesinger: it came up here the other day, doubt it
  46. # [01:06] <annevk> cbiesinger: Hixie would be available more next week btw
  47. # [01:07] <smaug____> cbiesinger: why would you want to merge microtask and stable state
  48. # [01:07] <smaug____> they are conceptually very different
  49. # [01:07] <annevk> smaug____: to have less concepts
  50. # [01:07] <smaug____> though, perhaps something which is using stable state could use microtask stuff
  51. # [01:09] <smaug____> I can see use cases for running something at the end of the current task
  52. # [01:09] <smaug____> for perf reasons for example
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  198. # [08:36] <zcorpan> "Polyglot markup begins a comment with either "<!" or "<!--"."
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  201. # [08:37] <zcorpan> <! polyglot is easy !>
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  250. # [12:48] <SteveF> zcorpan: are we reaching some agreement re summary/details?
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  254. # [13:00] <zcorpan> SteveF: maybe
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  257. # [13:05] <krit> zcorpan: ping
  258. # [13:05] <zcorpan> krit: pong
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  260. # [13:05] <krit> zcorpan: Do you think you need to do more edits on DOMPoint, Quad, Rect on http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/geometry/Overview.html?
  261. # [13:06] <krit> zcorpan: otherwise I finish the DOMMatrix stuff and we are closer to FPWD, what do you think?
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  265. # [13:09] <zcorpan> krit: we might want to fix https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24219 although i guess it doesn't need to block fpwd. i also recall some markup bugs in the switch to bikeshed but same there
  266. # [13:10] <krit> zcorpan: didn't know that we have a bug tracker for the spec already :P
  267. # [13:10] <zcorpan> krit: the spec links to it :-)
  268. # [13:10] <krit> zcorpan: :O
  269. # [13:10] <krit> zcorpan: I will go over the issues before asking for FPWD
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  273. # [13:31] <zcorpan> krit: there's little incentive to implement mathml if the geometry spec doesn't use it :-P
  274. # [13:31] <krit> zcorpan: :)
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  290. # [14:12] <zcorpan> Hixie: in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25140 stevef proposes <details><summary id=x> <label for=x>Foo</label> </summary> ... </details> for giving a label to the disclosure triangle to get a bigger click area
  291. # [14:15] <SteveF> Hixie: zcorpan: and also to provide an unambiguous accessible name for the triangle when summary includes controls with their own label text
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  326. # [15:59] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: pushed some rel-handling updates to http://validator.w3.org/nu/
  327. # [16:00] <MikeSmith> saner error messages for rel="icon shortcut" etc
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  331. # [16:03] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: does it just never mention anything about url/curie? just say that it's not registered?
  332. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah never mentions
  333. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> only says "keyword not registered"
  334. # [16:04] <zcorpan> clever
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  336. # [16:06] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: the curie support means that a url will basically always be treated as a curie (except if the scheme doesn't match Name) right?
  337. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> hmm yeah
  338. # [16:06] <MikeSmith> I guess it does
  339. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> hadn't thought about that
  340. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> but dunno anyway to get around it given the rdfa requirements
  341. # [16:07] <zcorpan> i think that was pointed out as a flaw way back when curie was a thing, but the response was safe_curie which didn't actually fix the problem
  342. # [16:08] <zcorpan> the whole thing is just a fuckup
  343. # [16:08] <jgraham> People still care about RDFa?
  344. # [16:08] <jgraham> Who knew
  345. # [16:08] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah safe_curie which is now "deprecated"
  346. # [16:09] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I don't care but I have to make the validator care
  347. # [16:09] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: now that'll fix the problem :-)
  348. # [16:09] <scor> jgraham: http://schema.org/LocalBusiness (see examples at the bottom)
  349. # [16:09] <jgraham> MikeSmith: One would hope you only have to make the validator care if people care. But I suppose it is also possible that people think that other people care (but those other people don't actually)
  350. # [16:10] <jgraham> zcorpan: I guess you haven't had any time to look at the unstable tests?
  351. # [16:10] <jgraham> (not a criticism of course, just a question)
  352. # [16:11] <zcorpan> jgraham: no, sorry
  353. # [16:11] <zcorpan> i was busy eating chocolate
  354. # [16:11] <jgraham> OK, I guess I will have another look at some
  355. # [16:11] <jgraham> heh
  356. # [16:12] <jgraham> I am bothered by the ones that always seem to be unstable in automation and always seem to work fine on my machine
  357. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I only care because otherwise my fan-mail stream gets tainted with "why you no rdfa" screeching
  358. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: so I guess I don't need to have the code even do any valid-url check at all in this case, since it's already first checking if the tokens are valid curiess
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  360. # [16:14] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: i think so
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  362. # [16:18] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: ok sad but I guess that'll make the code slightly happier since it hates dealing with rdfa so much I have to always manhandle all the rdfa handling into it
  363. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> I think this guy is reading my mind https://twitter.com/mqsiuser/status/452085394813636609
  364. # [16:19] <MikeSmith> gsnedders might also find that more acutely relevant
  365. # [16:23] <jgraham> That's an amazing non-sequitr in that post
  366. # [16:23] <jgraham> I *didn't* study computer science and still got the same outcome
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  369. # [16:25] <Ms2ger> ...wat
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  371. # [16:26] <jgraham> ?
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  374. # [16:27] <zcorpan> so that means everyone will have to work with w3c's bullshit standards for decades. since everyone will either have studied computer science, or not
  375. # [16:27] <Ms2ger> The tweet
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  378. # [16:28] <zcorpan> but that's silly and therefore jgraham is a fool
  379. # [16:28] <jgraham> I think that it means that the existence of Bullshit W3C Standards, and your choice of whether to work with them or not, are mostly independent of your choice of degree
  380. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> it's the double hurt of him both wasting his time studying computer science and then having to try to apply that science to teach his computer how to handle RDFa
  381. # [16:29] <MikeSmith> his computer keeps saying But this is not science you promised me science
  382. # [16:29] <jgraham> You would have thought that computers, out of all entities, would know that computer science is not science
  383. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> and clearly he's talking about RDFa there even tough maybe he's not even read the RDFa "family of specifications" yet
  384. # [16:30] <jgraham> It's like a highly specialised branch of Mathematics that thinks "Science" is neat branding
  385. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> heh
  386. # [16:30] <MikeSmith> there's even "Web Science" now
  387. # [16:31] <zcorpan> is there HTML5 Science?
  388. # [16:31] * jorendorff_away is now known as jorendorff
  389. # [16:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: there was but the lab exploded
  390. # [16:33] <zcorpan> they found <plaintext> and couldn't get out of it?
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  393. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> heh
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  397. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: on the plus side now I guess I really ought to write a bunch of validator tests for rel and you will have the fun of reviewing them
  398. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> so every cloud has a silver lining
  399. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> even the rdfa cloud
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  437. # [18:25] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Do you know what RelaxNG cannot express in html? Is it just the restrictions on valid attribute values? Can it express all the various content model constraints (if not, why not)?
  438. # [18:25] <gsnedders> (Anyone else feel free to answer, ofc)
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  443. # [18:30] <darobin> gsnedders: one thing it can't do is wildcard on names
  444. # [18:30] <darobin> so data-* for instance
  445. # [18:30] <MikeSmith> bingo
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  449. # [18:33] <gsnedders> Anything else?
  450. # [18:33] <MikeSmith> exclusions
  451. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> like old SGML exclusions
  452. # [18:34] <gsnedders> What exclusions?
  453. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> e.g., footnote can contain all flow content except footnote
  454. # [18:34] <MikeSmith> etc
  455. # [18:35] <gsnedders> Well you can enumerate all of them no?
  456. # [18:35] <gsnedders> So surely that poses no problem?
  457. # [18:35] <MikeSmith> it's a practical problem
  458. # [18:36] <MikeSmith> anyway lemme get you a URL
  459. # [18:37] <gsnedders> Ergh, train running late, cut back to Edinburgh. Yay for n extra change.
  460. # [18:37] <gsnedders> *an
  461. # [18:37] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/validator/syntax/blob/master/non-schema/java/src/org/whattf/checker/schematronequiv/Assertions.java
  462. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> ah required ancestors
  463. # [18:38] <MikeSmith> that's one
  464. # [18:38] <gsnedders> Ah, right. I guess again technicaly possible, but that really does get ugly.
  465. # [18:39] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  468. # [18:43] * gsnedders wonders about trying to programmatically generating a schema, and wonders if that'll be any quicker thn just doing the whole thing manually in Python
  469. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> I'd vote for doing it all manually in python
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  471. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> but it depends on what your goal is
  472. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> if for example your goal is to have good error messages, then don't use RelaxNG
  473. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> or don't use any grammar-based schema
  474. # [18:45] <MikeSmith> me wonders what you'd want to programmatically generate a schema for
  475. # [18:46] <MikeSmith> for validating something, obviously
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  478. # [18:48] <MikeSmith> but unless you have some large complex set of contraints to check I wouldn't think using RelaxNG will buy you anything
  479. # [18:49] <darobin> gsnedders: yes, required ancestors and exclusions are possible but extremely painful
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  481. # [18:49] * SamB contemplates trying to add support for good error messages to relaxng ...
  482. # [18:49] <darobin> for instance I wrote the initial RNG for SVG, and doing something like that changing the content model of something because it was inside <a> was pretty painful
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  484. # [18:50] <SamB> and yeah, not every constraint fits well at the grammatical level
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  488. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> which is where assertions-based checking like schematron can be a win
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  490. # [18:54] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: anyway would be fun to hear what you're needing to do
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  493. # [18:55] <SamB> RelaxNG Compact schemas are of course handy for editing XML in Emacs
  494. # [18:56] <SamB> even if they don't capture every constraint
  495. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> SamB: you should add that quote to http://twoproblems.com/
  496. # [18:57] <SamB> what, you don't like completion?
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  498. # [18:58] <darobin> any sentence involving Emacs makes for a good twoproblems :)
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  504. # [19:11] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: In principle we want to trigger a DataLossWarning in html5lib.HTMLSerializer whenever we won't roundtrip, which is most malformed trees, but not all… I'm not really sure what I want to do. :)
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  520. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: that sounds great but seems like it'd have no use at all for a schema
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  522. # [19:48] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Yeah, indeed. I want the API contract to be "only guarantees roundtrip for trees that match the content model restrictions"
  523. # [19:49] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: But the error messages should probably be better
  524. # [19:49] * SamB ponders how you you could implmement such that you can be confident in its correctness, without actually reparsing as you go
  525. # [19:49] * SamB bemoans his spelling/word-dropping ...
  526. # [19:51] <gsnedders> I'm not aiming to prove this correct. :)
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  528. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> I wonder what's the value of "only guarantees roundtrip for trees that match the content model restrictions"
  529. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> what do you gain from that
  530. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> oh
  531. # [19:52] <SamB> gsnedders: well, by "be confident" I mean be reasonably sure you haven't screwed it up
  532. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> yeah for some subset of the content-model restrictions I can see why
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  534. # [19:53] <gsnedders> SamB: We have enough parser tests that if they roundtrip or error correctly I'd be confident.
  535. # [19:53] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: omitting tags is especially hard in that case
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  539. # [19:55] <SamB> anyway, I certainly wasn't suggesting that you actually, say, convince coq that you'd either emit a warning or achieve = trees ;-P
  540. # [19:55] <MikeSmith> oh you having it roundtripping the absence of end tags and start tags?
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  543. # [19:56] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Well, it'd be good for the ommitabletags filter to raise DataLossWarning when it cannot guarantee safety
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  568. # [20:38] <MikeSmith> "whatwag" overheard just now at extensible web summit
  569. # [20:38] <MikeSmith> I like it
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  571. # [20:41] <hober> i pronounce it "what wee gee", i think due to annevk saying it that way
  572. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> I thought whatwig was canonical?
  573. # [20:41] <annevk> yes, per Hixie that's the way
  574. # [20:41] <annevk> no
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  577. # [20:44] <jgraham> WHAT WAG? WebHypertext Application Technology Wifes and Girlfriends? (c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAGs in case someone was about to suggest that was sexist)
  578. # [20:44] <Ms2ger> That's sexi... Oh
  579. # [20:44] <TabAtkins> I do What-Wig.
  580. # [20:45] <MikeSmith> I was thinking "wag" more like in the Elizabethan-era sense
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  583. # [20:48] <MikeSmith> meaning a wit
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  585. # [20:58] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Well that's just silly
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  689. # Session Close: Sat Apr 05 00:00:00 2014

The end :)