/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-04-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 23 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:01] <Hixie> oh faff, the w3c want me to change my password to a more "secure" one
  5. # [00:01] <Hixie> like i care one bit if that account can be compromised
  6. # [00:01] <Hixie> now i'll always be forgetting the password
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  10. # [00:05] <smola> Hixie: just change it to H1x13<year><month> every month, military-grade password policy compliant ;)
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  22. # [00:39] <Hixie> yay, w3c is actively forking canvas: http://www.w3.org/mid/53515EA3.7090205@w3.org
  23. # [00:42] <tantek> ugh
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  35. # [01:05] <zewt> i'm officially declaring document.cookie The Worst Web Platform API
  36. # [01:05] <SamB> zewt: it did look pretty bad ...
  37. # [01:06] <SamB> I mean is that even an API?
  38. # [01:06] <zewt> the fact that you can't even take the value of document.cookie, and assign it to document.cookie, and have it do the obvious thing...
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  40. # [01:14] <Hixie> document.cookie is pretty terrible.
  41. # [01:14] <Hixie> the race condition is my favourite part of it.
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  139. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie: mobile safari was released in June 2007 I think
  140. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/whatwg/web-history/blob/master/README.md#2007-06-to-2007-12
  141. # [04:47] <Hixie> k
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  172. # [06:51] <TabAtkins> annevk: When you get the chance, look over http://dev.w3.org/csswg/selectors/#data-model and see if you're happy with my attempt at defining selectors on top of DOM?
  173. # [06:51] <TabAtkins> The rest of the spec isn't matched up yet; I'll do that after.
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  296. # [12:03] <annevk> Whoa, Hixie wrote a lenghty blogpost on www-archive
  297. # [12:08] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2014Apr/0034.html
  298. # [12:08] <annevk> Hixie++
  299. # [12:10] <annevk> Hixie: it's pretty annoying people keep misspelling WHATWG; might be a personal pet peeve
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  301. # [12:29] <jgraham> Does that mean that Hixie is secretly Björn?
  302. # [12:29] <jgraham> Or are mailing list archives the blog platform of the future?
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  304. # [12:30] <jgraham> Certainly they have a number of advantages over other popular choices
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  323. # [13:38] <annevk> Standards discussion, support forums, or blogs?
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  333. # [13:50] <jgraham> Imagine that, a medium flexible enough that it could be all three.
  334. # [13:50] * espadrine` is now known as espadrine
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  336. # [13:54] <annevk> How do people make decisions between a boolean adjusting the behavior of a state and introducing an additional state?
  337. # [13:55] <annevk> E.g. it makes some sense to me to simply fold "force preflight flag" into the request's "mode" concept, but having "CORS-with-forced-preflight" as a mode
  338. # [13:55] <annevk> s/but/by/
  339. # [13:58] <jgraham> annevk: I guess it depends what's simpler
  340. # [13:59] <jgraham> Generally if you have two orthogonal concepts and all combinations of them are allowed it doesn't make sense to flatten them
  341. # [14:00] <annevk> jgraham: right, which is why it makes some sense to flatten them here, as mode being tainted cross-origin does not pair with a forced preflight flag
  342. # [14:11] <hsivonen> annevk: amazing how much stuff there is to remove under uconv/ thanks to the Encoding Standard
  343. # [14:11] <hsivonen> and thanks to just paying attention to stuff that FreeType obsoleted on X11
  344. # [14:11] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah, the file savings are great
  345. # [14:12] <annevk> hsivonen: I think it has helped that other implementers took a fresh look at encodings
  346. # [14:12] <annevk> hsivonen: Opera having their own implementation, Chrome being conservative with ICU
  347. # [14:12] <hsivonen> yeah
  348. # [14:13] <hsivonen> it's sad that TrueType fonts can have the font name encoded in any of the Mac legacy encodings
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  354. # [14:20] <hsivonen> you know you are reading good code when "4.x behavior" refers to Netscape 4.x
  355. # [14:23] <jgraham> heh
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  361. # [14:39] <IZh> Hixie: Hi.
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  363. # [14:40] <Ms2ger> A little early, herpahs
  364. # [14:40] <Ms2ger> perhaps
  365. # [14:40] <IZh> I'll wait. :-)
  366. # [14:42] <annevk> IZh: http://www.nohello.com/
  367. # [14:43] <IZh> annevk: My "hello" was personalized. So nobody except Hixie shouldn't wait for continuation. ;-)
  368. # [14:44] <annevk> same difference
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  373. # [15:07] <Domenic_> Great post Hixie.
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  375. # [15:07] <Domenic_> annevk: +1 on the WHATWG mispelling; I feel the same way.
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  380. # [15:25] <Ms2ger> WhatWG?
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  383. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> so I'm trying to run test from http://w3c-test.org/tools/runner/index.html in IE11 in a VM and they're all failing with the error "Could not complete the operation due to error 80700019." If anybody else has run into this, some clue would be appreciated
  384. # [15:32] <SteveF> MikeSmith: FYI completed test run but couldn't download JSON have html output
  385. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> SteveF: oh
  386. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> SteveF: yeah please send me what you got
  387. # [15:33] <SteveF> you got skype open?
  388. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> ah no
  389. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> will open it now
  390. # [15:35] <SteveF> nevermind saved the file didn't save the results
  391. # [15:35] <SteveF> will run again
  392. # [15:35] <SteveF> and mail you
  393. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> ok thanks
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  406. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> so the problem I'm running into with IE11 seems to be due to .postMessage failing
  407. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> wonder if there's some known issue and some way to work around it
  408. # [16:09] <jgraham> MikeSmith: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21070553/postmessage-still-broken-on-ie11
  409. # [16:10] <jgraham> I think the way to fix it is probably to pick an IE developer at random and show up at their house and start mooning until a fix is forthcoming
  410. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> jgraham: thanks
  411. # [16:10] <MikeSmith> heh
  412. # [16:11] <SteveF> MikeSmith: hey once I followed your original instructions correctly(unchecking ref/manual), started test and nothing appears to happen aprt from button changing from start to stop, just sits there
  413. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> SteveF: odd
  414. # [16:12] <MikeSmith> SteveF: thanks for trying it, I guess I'll give up for now
  415. # [16:12] <SteveF> MikeSmith: looks like a window opens but diappears
  416. # [16:13] <MikeSmith> oh
  417. # [16:13] <SteveF> MikeSmith - worked it out had space before /
  418. # [16:14] <MikeSmith> SteveF: yeah, that'll do it
  419. # [16:14] <SteveF> working again now will mail you once done
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  422. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> SteveF: thanks
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  428. # [16:34] <Hixie> IZh: got your mail, will be responding today. sorry for the delay, been out of town.
  429. # [16:35] <IZh> Hixie: No problems. :-)
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  433. # [16:50] <annevk> JakeA: what's the idea with shared workers and service workers again?
  434. # [16:51] <annevk> JakeA: a shared worker is controlled by a service worker matching its URL scope?
  435. # [16:51] <annevk> JakeA: whereas a dedicated worker is controlled by a service worker controlling its document?
  436. # [16:51] <JakeA> agreed
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  438. # [16:52] <annevk> JakeA: should the register API be available from workers?
  439. # [16:52] <annevk> JakeA: also, that seems to mean we should distinguish worker from sharedworker in .context (the new purpose), no?
  440. # [16:53] <JakeA> annevk: I don't see why the register API can't be in shared workers, but don't think it's essential
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  442. # [16:55] <annevk> JakeA: agreed I guess, what about the second question?
  443. # [16:55] <JakeA> annevk: good spot. I think it's another reason to bring back .isNavigation or similar
  444. # [16:55] <JakeA> annevk: Since "child" can be both Worker or SharedWorker
  445. # [16:55] <annevk> JakeA: we also have "worker"
  446. # [16:56] <annevk> JakeA: I thought "navigate" was child/popup/navigate
  447. # [16:56] <annevk> s/"navigate"/isNavigate/
  448. # [16:58] <JakeA> annevk: hmm, not sure "worker" should be there. I thought the intention was to stick with CSP terms, except for "navigate" when they don't have.
  449. # [16:58] <JakeA> annevk: CSP uses "child" for workers
  450. # [16:59] <annevk> JakeA: the idea was to have a superset
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  452. # [16:59] <annevk> JakeA: that way we have flexibility to hang of different semantics later
  453. # [17:00] <annevk> JakeA: or where we already know we need different semantics we can do so right away
  454. # [17:00] <JakeA> annevk: you're right, isNavigate shouldn't be for workers…
  455. # [17:00] <annevk> JakeA: as you pointed out above, "child" is different from "worker" as "child" is navigate while "worker" is not (unless it's a shared worker, in which case I'm not quite sure what to call it)
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  457. # [17:01] <annevk> JakeA: fetching a shared worker doesn't invoke HTML's navigate algorithm, but we do want equivalent service worker semantics
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  461. # [17:01] <JakeA> annevk: Yep. In that case, yeah, we should have separate purposes
  462. # [17:01] <annevk> JakeA: contexts* ;-)
  463. # [17:02] <annevk> JakeA: I will add sharedworker to the list I'm about to add to Fetch
  464. # [17:02] <JakeA> hah. yeah. sorry, was staring at the .ts
  465. # [17:02] <JakeA> annevk: works for me
  466. # [17:02] <annevk> JakeA: slowly upgrading the vocabulary in Fetch for the eventual integration
  467. # [17:03] <annevk> JakeA: still trying to think about what the best way to deal with the request object vs the request concept is
  468. # [17:03] <JakeA> annevk: I'm writing a talk, which feels really unhelpful this close to FWD, but gotta be done for Saturday
  469. # [17:03] <annevk> JakeA: no worries, I don't care about FPWD
  470. # [17:03] <annevk> JakeA: I can stop bugging you this week
  471. # [17:04] <annevk> Maybe I can get jungkee to join this chat
  472. # [17:04] <JakeA> annevk: no no, I didn't mean that. Just trying to justify the lack of useful I've been
  473. # [17:04] <annevk> oh, no, you've been very useful
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  476. # [17:14] <Hixie> it's amusing to watch the showModalDialog() thing
  477. # [17:14] <Hixie> because all these developers are acting as if the feature was a long-standing standard API
  478. # [17:15] <Hixie> it's probably the clearest indication of the lack of importance of specs for a long time...
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  486. # [17:24] <Domenic_> I'm glad Blink seems to be holding the line on killing that one, unlike the Attr changes
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  489. # [17:27] <zcorpan> i'd expect a more thought-through round of Attr changes later
  490. # [17:29] <Domenic_> I kind of thought that making small changes now and seeing the reaction would be OK---getting people used to the idea that Chrome will remove such rarely-used APIs---instead of trying to do everything at once.
  491. # [17:29] <Hixie> ojan posting about that recently
  492. # [17:29] <Hixie> posted
  493. # [17:30] <Hixie> talking about how bigger fewer changes was better than more smaller changes
  494. # [17:30] <Hixie> oops, edited the spec forgetting that i already had an edit in flight
  495. # [17:30] <Hixie> well, the next checkin is gonna suck for everyone
  496. # [17:31] <Hixie> sorry about that
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  498. # [17:32] <zcorpan> one response i saw to the whateverAttributeNodeNS removal was to write a "polyfill" that used another fooAttributeNode method that was also removed from the dom spec but not yet from the impl
  499. # [17:32] <Hixie> heh
  500. # [17:33] <Hixie> i wasn't following the Node stuff
  501. # [17:33] <Hixie> what are we trying to remove, and why?
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  503. # [17:33] <zcorpan> we're primarily trying to make Attr not inherit from Node
  504. # [17:33] <zcorpan> and secondarily removing methods related to Attr that "nobody" uses
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  506. # [17:34] <Hixie> i thought the Node thing was done long ago
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  508. # [17:34] <Hixie> is that failing?
  509. # [17:34] <zcorpan> i don't think it has been done in the impl yet
  510. # [17:34] <zcorpan> so it's not failing yet
  511. # [17:35] <zcorpan> removing one of the methods failed (but might be attempted again later)
  512. # [17:35] <Hixie> ah
  513. # [17:35] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i think the 408 thing might be a chrome dev bug
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  515. # [17:36] <Domenic_> Hixie: I didn't really feel strongly or clearly enough to object on-list, but my gut feeling was that I wasn't sure Ojan's "We shouldn't remove APIs that have small value on the path towards a removal that has significant value" made sense.
  516. # [17:36] <Domenic_> Basically, gradually easing people in to a change seems potentially valuable?
  517. # [17:36] <Hixie> i don't know that i have an opinion either way
  518. # [17:36] <Hixie> just pointing out that there was a post on the subject :-)
  519. # [17:39] <Domenic_> Wow did not realize <textarea> had three values
  520. # [17:40] <annevk> Hixie: we made the Attr spec change long ago, but implementations are slow to clean up old code
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  522. # [17:41] <Domenic_> When I Google "whatwg html textarea" google shows the page titles as having "WhatWG" O_o
  523. # [17:41] <Domenic_> Also when I click the little dropdown in the Google search it says "WHATWG: Programming Language Developer"
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  526. # [17:43] <Hixie> well i guess that's accurate
  527. # [17:43] <Hixie> for some definition of "programming language"
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  530. # [17:46] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  531. # [17:46] <annevk> Domenic_: yeah, seems WHATWG ended up as WhatWG in some Google systems
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  533. # [17:48] <annevk> WHATWG's Google+ page is not to blame
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  546. # [17:56] <annevk> JakeA: <object> can create a nested browsing context too; but can also load plugins
  547. # [17:57] <Hixie> and images
  548. # [17:57] <Hixie> <object> is a disaster of overloaded behaviour
  549. # [17:58] <JakeA> annevk: hm, yeah. Object is badly named then. Nested browsing context via object should have the same context as iframe. I guess "object" means object/embed with no better match
  550. # [17:58] <JakeA> ugh
  551. # [17:58] <JakeA> "The object-src directive restricts from where the protected resource can load plugins"
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  553. # [17:59] <JakeA> Do we know if it's going to load a plugin at request time?
  554. # [17:59] <JakeA> Or is that dictated by the content-type?
  555. # [17:59] <zcorpan> embed can also be a browsing context
  556. # [18:00] <JakeA> "It is not required that the consumer of the element's data be a plugin in order for the object-src directive to be enforced" ughhghgh
  557. # [18:00] <zcorpan> JakeA: if typemustmatch and type are both present, you can know beforehand, iirc
  558. # [18:00] <zcorpan> JakeA: but otherwise the content-type wins
  559. # [18:01] <JakeA> "This is true even when the element data is semantically equivalent to content which would otherwise be restricted by one of the other directives, such as an object element with a text/html MIME type."
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  561. # [18:01] <JakeA> annevk: so "object" means "comes from an <object> or <embed>", even if it doesn't load a plugin
  562. # [18:02] <JakeA> I don't think we should do something different.
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  564. # [18:03] <annevk> JakeA: the problem is that it can be a browsing context
  565. # [18:03] <JakeA> If you're using object/embed you're opening the Ghostbuster's Containment Unit anyway
  566. # [18:03] <annevk> JakeA: and if it's a browsing context, it needs its own service worker
  567. # [18:03] <JakeA> Ah, good point
  568. # [18:03] <annevk> JakeA: however, you don't know whether it needs its own browsing context until you have examined the response
  569. # [18:04] <Domenic_> I kind of was looking forward to the world where <object> replaced <img>, <video>, <audio>, and all other such things. That was XHTML2 right?
  570. # [18:04] <annevk> Domenic_: yes, it had src on all elements
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  572. # [18:04] <annevk> Domenic_: given what we know now that made little sense
  573. # [18:04] <Domenic_> src on everything too? I knew about href on everything...
  574. # [18:05] <JakeA> annevk: This is tough. Trying to think of something better than "SW responses to <object>/<embed> cannot create browsing contexts"
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  576. # [18:07] * JakeA goes to read the spec for <object>
  577. # [18:07] <annevk> Domenic_: yes
  578. # [18:07] <Domenic_> well that's just crazysauce
  579. # [18:08] <jgraham> "When a service worker is active the <object> and <embed> elements must have their UA conformance criteria replaced by those of the <div> element" :p
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  581. # [18:08] <annevk> JakeA: it seems kind of sucky that enabling a service worker renders two elements partially obsolete
  582. # [18:08] <zcorpan> anyone know if anyone is implementing aria 1.1?
  583. # [18:08] <annevk> JakeA: or makes two elements wormholes
  584. # [18:10] <SteveF> zcorpan: which bit(s)
  585. # [18:12] <annevk> JakeA: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/249
  586. # [18:12] <annevk> JakeA: filed that issue for object/embed
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  588. # [18:15] <zcorpan> SteveF: role="switch checkbox" being switch rather than checkbox
  589. # [18:16] <annevk> Hixie: https://twitter.com/rillian/status/455859796160151552
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  592. # [18:18] <Hixie> hrm
  593. # [18:18] <Hixie> where are the absolute URLs coming from, that's the question...
  594. # [18:18] <annevk> ooh, might very well be the splitter script
  595. # [18:18] <Hixie> there's some in the spec source, i'll fix those first
  596. # [18:18] <Hixie> i just change http://blabla to //blabla, right?
  597. # [18:18] <annevk> yeah that ought to work
  598. # [18:19] <Hixie> the images on images.whatwg.org aren't gonna work this way
  599. # [18:19] <Hixie> since that doesn't have ssl
  600. # [18:19] <annevk> yeah :/
  601. # [18:19] <annevk> ssl + put everything on a subdomain = fail
  602. # [18:20] <SteveF> zcorpan: don't think switch is in the spec yet - as in can't find it, know its been raised, i think by james craig so coming from apple/webkit direction
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  604. # [18:20] <zcorpan> SteveF: or any other value that's not in 1.0
  605. # [18:21] <zcorpan> context is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0099.html
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  609. # [18:21] <annevk> dglazkov: I think I missed that status email
  610. # [18:22] <annevk> dglazkov: and it shipping without being settled is somewhat odd
  611. # [18:23] <SteveF> zcorpan: right, its still very early days for 1.1 and don't think anything has been agreed upon apart from describedat
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  613. # [18:24] <zcorpan> SteveF: ok thanks
  614. # [18:25] <SteveF> zcorpan: editors draft http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-1.1/
  615. # [18:25] <annevk> JakeA: so if shared worker is not a navigate request, but is a request that gets its own service worker, do we have a good term for that?
  616. # [18:26] <annevk> JakeA: resource request seems like an obvious name for the other type of request
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  618. # [18:27] <JakeA> annevk: remind me why shared worker doesn't count as "navigate". It has the same restrictions, it can't be an OpaqueResponse
  619. # [18:28] <annevk> JakeA: it doesn't use the "navigate" algorithm
  620. # [18:28] <annevk> JakeA: and I guess it can be an OpaqueResponse if it's a same-origin redirect
  621. # [18:29] <Hixie> ok, styles and scripts now load relatively
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  623. # [18:29] <JakeA> annevk: that's true for navigations too right?
  624. # [18:29] <annevk> JakeA: confirm
  625. # [18:30] <JakeA> annevk: I think shared workers would go through the navigate part of the SW algorithms
  626. # [18:30] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  627. # [18:30] <JakeA> which probably means this is a naming issue
  628. # [18:30] <JakeA> dglazkov: Morning!
  629. # [18:30] <annevk> JakeA: HTML has an algorithm called "navigate" which is only for navigating browsing contexts
  630. # [18:31] <annevk> Explaining this stack of turtles to someone new to web development is going to be insane
  631. # [18:31] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, whereas SW means "selects a registration"
  632. # [18:32] <annevk> JakeA: "registration request"
  633. # [18:32] <annevk> ?
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  635. # [18:33] <JakeA> annevk: sounds too much like "request for a registration". All the terms I can think of are balls. "top level", "initial", "browser contexting" urgh
  636. # [18:34] <annevk> JakeA: maybe controller?
  637. # [18:34] <annevk> JakeA: as the window/worker will be the controller for future requests?
  638. # [18:35] <annevk> JakeA: but maybe that's confusing with the document being controlled by the service worker
  639. # [18:35] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, we may even end up with a navigator.serviceWorker.controller for the controlling SW instance
  640. # [18:38] <Domenic_> can we call it navigationController
  641. # [18:38] <JakeA> haha
  642. # [18:38] <annevk> oh my
  643. # [18:38] <annevk> oooh
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  645. # [18:38] <annevk> JakeA: how about client request?
  646. # [18:38] <JakeA> annevk: it doesn't really mean anything to me, but it's the least-bad so far
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  649. # [18:38] <annevk> JakeA: well, client is where resource requests originate from
  650. # [18:39] <annevk> JakeA: and is the terminology we are introducing to mean either window or worker, right?
  651. # [18:39] <JakeA> annevk: that's true actually
  652. # [18:40] <JakeA> annevk: fetchEvent.isNewClient
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  654. # [18:40] <JakeA> annevk: maybe just fetchEvent.newClient
  655. # [18:41] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, just trying to introduce terminology at this point
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  658. # [18:43] <annevk> JakeA: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-request-client
  659. # [18:44] <JakeA> annevk: yes! That works
  660. # [18:44] <annevk> JakeA: just need to make sure we have enough contexts now
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  666. # [19:05] <Hixie> MikeSmith: http://platform.html5.org/ - Typed Array is in JS, now, I think
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  669. # [19:07] <Hixie> thanks to IZh, we have a PDF version of the spec again! :-D
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  671. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> Hixie: thanks yeah I'll update http://platform.html5.org/ tomorrow
  672. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> Hixie: btw yeah I've noticed 408s recently in Chrome from sites other than bugzilla
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  689. # [19:32] <zcorpan> Hixie: the pdf link points to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
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  699. # [20:04] <annevk> I hope people do not actually print and put that on their Kindle or whatever
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  704. # [20:14] <annevk> "Once the spec is finalized and released, the latest version will be clear and obvious - just as it is for other W3C specs."
  705. # [20:15] * annevk snickers
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  707. # [20:21] <tantek> lol
  708. # [20:21] <tantek> annevk - URL? I need more material to humor the AB ;)
  709. # [20:21] <tantek> s/humor/inform ;)
  710. # [20:21] <annevk> tantek: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25421
  711. # [20:22] <tantek> oh Travis
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  713. # [20:23] <tantek> too bad he didn't make it to the HTMLWG f2f, was hoping for more interesting avoid spec divergence discussions
  714. # [20:24] <annevk> Gary said this actually, guy from Google
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  736. # [21:18] <Ms2ger> OH "As useful & full of potential as hashtags."
  737. # [21:18] <Ms2ger> Not sure if sarcastic
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  771. # [22:28] <SamB> hmm, I don't suppose anyone knows a good channel to talk about problems involving docbook-xsl -- my valgrind(1) manpage has, um, issues ...
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  774. # [22:35] <estellevw> clarification request: my understanding was that "novalidate" can be on any form field or the form itself, and formnovalidate is only for type=submit and <button>.
  775. # [22:35] <estellevw> However, deeper spec reading seems to indicate that novalidate is on the element's form owner, so is novalidate only valid on <form>?
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  777. # [22:41] <annevk> estellevw: yes, novalidate is on form
  778. # [22:41] <annevk> estellevw: formnovalidate is on input/button
  779. # [22:42] <estellevw> thanks annevk
  780. # [22:42] <annevk> estellevw: it has a form prefix on input/button just like action et al have because otherwise we'd be breaking sites
  781. # [22:42] <SamB> I think if you want some control not to be validated, you don't use a control type with validation?
  782. # [22:44] <annevk> SamB: novalidate is more if you want to save intermediate input
  783. # [22:44] * SamB should probably read more before talking ...
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  788. # [22:48] <estellevw> so, if you want to suggest the user include a number from 5 to 10, but want to allow for any data for that field only, and want the rest of the form to be validated, how would you say "validate the entire form except foo where foo is <input type="number" name="foo" min="5" max="10">?
  789. # [22:50] <estellevw> is there a way to exclude just one form element from a form validation constraints,
  790. # [22:50] <annevk> estellevw: there's no such feature
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  792. # [22:50] <estellevw> hmm mph. Now I want one
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  794. # [22:50] <estellevw> didn't want it until I found out I couldn't have it ;)
  795. # [22:50] <annevk> hah
  796. # [22:51] <annevk> estellevw: whatwg@whatwg.org ; though don't ask for a specific feature, mention a scenario you find hard to accomplish
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  798. # [22:52] <Domenic_> why can't this just be accomplished with <input type="number"> with no min or max? If they're not used for validation what are they used for...
  799. # [22:53] <annevk> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2013-April/030412.html bah
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  804. # [22:54] <estellevw> Domenic_ I was just coming up with an example scenario: when you want to allow for any data entry, but you want to take advantage of the GUI
  805. # [22:55] <Domenic_> What GUI?
  806. # [22:55] <estellevw> the number spinner
  807. # [22:55] <annevk> estellevw: there's also <input inputmode=numeric>
  808. # [22:56] <estellevw> http://codepen.io/estelle/pen/fAKJa
  809. # [22:56] <estellevw> ah, that I did not know about
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  811. # [22:56] <Domenic_> The number spinner is still there with no min or max....
  812. # [22:56] <estellevw> even though it was right there on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-input-element.html#input-type-attr-summary
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  820. # [23:12] <SamB> hmm, #the-blink-element should maybe bring me to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/obsolete.html#dfnReturnLink-0 ?
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  826. # [23:20] <SamB> Hixie: have I ever told you that the "comment" box on the HTML spec is awfully small
  827. # [23:20] <zcorpan> SamB: #dfnReturnLink-0 is a script-generated id that won't work for anyone else loading that url
  828. # [23:20] <SamB> zcorpan: oh
  829. # [23:20] <Hixie> samb: if you have more to say, just type in a title and submit the bug
  830. # [23:21] <Hixie> SamB: then edit the bug to add more :-)
  831. # [23:21] <SamB> Hixie: yeah, I realize I can do that ...
  832. # [23:21] <Hixie> SamB: (in my experience, if i give people a multiline field, i get more rambling BS bugs)
  833. # [23:22] <SamB> might be nice to have a "prefill this section in bugzilla" button or something?
  834. # [23:22] <Hixie> if you click on the spec section, that is the section ID used
  835. # [23:22] <Hixie> just click anywhere in the spec
  836. # [23:23] <SamB> I know I can get the ID easily enough
  837. # [23:24] <zcorpan> SamB: do you prefer the behavior of http://resources.whatwg.org/file-bug.js ?
  838. # [23:24] <SamB> I guess you're hinting that I should implement my own damn button?
  839. # [23:24] <SamB> or steal his
  840. # [23:25] <zcorpan> Hixie's thing is good in that it doesn't require people to create a bugzilla account to give feedback
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  842. # [23:25] <SamB> zcorpan: I know
  843. # [23:25] <Hixie> yeah that was my main priority
  844. # [23:25] <Hixie> (though if you have one, and are logged in to the spec annotation system, it does cc you)
  845. # [23:26] <SamB> I think I had sort of noticed it but not gotten around to thinking about where it got my email address
  846. # [23:27] <zcorpan> but i sort of agree with SamB that it'd be nice to be forwarded to bugzilla to fill in the details and tweak the title or whatever before actually filing the bug
  847. # [23:28] <SamB> zcorpan: so if I wanted to use this thing from a userscript, I'd need to insert the link and THEN a script element?
  848. # [23:29] * SamB pictures a red button marked only "BZ"
  849. # [23:29] <zcorpan> SamB: it wasn't designed to be a userscript, so maybe it can be tweaked a bit
  850. # [23:29] <SamB> I know that
  851. # [23:30] <zcorpan> i mean maybe i can tweak it and upload it so that it works as a userscript out of the box :-)
  852. # [23:30] <SamB> if it were designed to be a userscript, it would ... need to insert elements on its own, and also have a way for the user to configure the bugzilla addresses
  853. # [23:30] <Hixie> zcorpan: why does it matter if it's before or after filing the bug_?
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  856. # [23:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: it's less noisy for other people
  857. # [23:32] <Hixie> zcorpan: the only people who get cc'ed are me and mike
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  859. # [23:32] <Hixie> mike is cc'ed on like half the universe so i doubt he's affected one way or the other by the few people who want to edit the bugs
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  861. # [23:32] <Hixie> and i have filters that delete bugmail from open bugs assigned to me
  862. # [23:32] <zcorpan> Hixie: lots of people read the bugs
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  864. # [23:33] <Hixie> sure but they're not affected by title changes
  865. # [23:33] <Hixie> or the initial comment being split in two
  866. # [23:34] <zcorpan> i mean read as in get emails
  867. # [23:34] <zcorpan> i get emails for new bugs and new comments and title changes
  868. # [23:34] * SamB is just a bit OCD
  869. # [23:34] <Hixie> who do you watch? me?
  870. # [23:34] <Hixie> if you watch me you're in for a world of trouble if you don't have scripts to manage your bugmail :-)
  871. # [23:34] <zcorpan> Hixie: don't remember how i set it up, but maybe
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  876. # [23:38] <zcorpan> i also think there's some negative force against filing a bug before having thought through the issue, and it's hard to think it through by just writing a title. it's easier to flesh it out and then realize that it was just a misunderstanding or whatever and not file the bug
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  879. # [23:46] <SamB> zcorpan: yeah
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  881. # [23:47] <SamB> and sometimes you'd rather not write the title first, too ...
  882. # [23:48] <SamB> on a tangent: it's really cool that bugzilla actually supports prefilling stuff
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  886. # [23:51] <Hixie> zcorpan: figure out a way to make it work without people having to have a bugzilla account, and i'll see what i can do :-)
  887. # [23:52] <Hixie> honestly though, the overhead of filing a bug that you then immediately close is nearly zero, to me
  888. # [23:52] <SamB> what, just wasting bug numbers???
  889. # [23:53] <SamB> well, I guess if it wasn't the *plan* to close them it's different ...
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  896. # [23:59] <zcorpan> Hixie: replace the hide button with a resize thingie so when you make the comment box bigger you get title+textarea :-)
  897. # Session Close: Thu Apr 24 00:00:00 2014

The end :)