/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-04-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 29 00:00:04 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:05] <Hixie> on what?
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  7. # [00:05] <SamB> Hixie: or some things think the next line is also summary
  8. # [00:05] <Hixie> i'm talking about the bug form
  9. # [00:05] <SamB> oh!
  10. # [00:06] * SamB was thinking git ...
  11. # [00:06] <SamB> what bug form is that? I thought bugzilla had separate fields for each of those
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  14. # [00:10] <Hixie> the one on the spec
  15. # [00:10] <Hixie> html spec
  16. # [00:12] <SamB> ah
  17. # [00:13] * SamB hasn't looked at that for a few days; he's been using an even older computer than usual because the fan on his usual one had gotten WAAAY too noisy and he was waiting for a replacement in the mail ...
  18. # [00:13] <Hixie> heh
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  24. # [00:21] <Domenic_> 500 on http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8582&to=8583
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  27. # [00:35] <Domenic_> (fixed itself)
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  35. # [00:46] <Hixie> umm....
  36. # [00:46] <Hixie> hey anne
  37. # [00:47] <Hixie> the tracker is missing some entries :-)
  38. # [00:47] <Hixie> e.g. r8580
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  89. # [03:21] <zewt> guh @ urllib.urlencode vomitting when passed unicode
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  113. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> cabanier: even with the canvas.focusring.enabled pref set in FF, we still have tests that fail http://w3c.github.io/test-results/2dcontext/complete-fails.html
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  116. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> oh hmm
  117. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> maybe not http://www.w3c-test.org/2dcontext/drawing-paths-to-the-canvas/drawFocusIfNeeded_001.html
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  134. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> cabanier: regenerated http://w3c.github.io/test-results/2dcontext/less-than-2.html
  135. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> and http://w3c.github.io/test-results/2dcontext/complete-fails.html now shows zero
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  139. # [04:59] <cabanier> MikeSmith: thanks! I'll see if I can fix some of the FF issues
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  166. # [07:05] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: that "All the Dashes in Web Typography" thing is missing ー
  167. # [07:06] <MikeSmith> U+30FC
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  253. # [12:00] <annevk> Hixie: http://html5.org/r/8580 seems to be there?
  254. # [12:01] <annevk> Hixie: note that I only track changes to /webapps/source
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  269. # [13:00] <annevk> JakeA / jungkees: do we have diagrams somewhere of the various fetch flows?
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  271. # [13:01] <annevk> JakeA / jungkees: in particular I wonder what the best way is to define the event.default() semantic
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  273. # [13:03] <annevk> <img> -> invokes fetch -> invokes SW -> invokes default -> invokes fetch recursively but with "use SW flag" unset or some such?
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  277. # [13:10] <JakeA> annevk: Do you specifically want diagrams or would rough algorithms fo?
  278. # [13:10] <JakeA> do*
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  288. # [13:16] <annevk> JakeA: rough works I suppose
  289. # [13:17] <annevk> JakeA: I had this idea of making the request concept much simpler, but then I realized that is probably not possible because we have this recursion thing going on, so at least some of the data needs to stay preserved
  290. # [13:23] <hsivonen> annevk: do we have any single-byte encoding (other than x-user-defined) that defines mappings for the entire upper half?
  291. # [13:23] <annevk> hsivonen: we need "unicodelatin1" or some such that will have that
  292. # [13:23] <hsivonen> non-control mappings that is
  293. # [13:23] <annevk> hsivonen: for networking
  294. # [13:23] <hsivonen> annevk: that won't help me now
  295. # [13:24] <hsivonen> annevk: I'm thinking of an encoding I could use with gedit today
  296. # [13:24] <hsivonen> the best I have so far is windows-1251, which has one undefined code point
  297. # [13:24] <hsivonen> so I have to be really unlucky not to be able to roundtrip stuff with that one
  298. # [13:25] <JakeA> annevk: I'll write an algo for event.default() later this week (I'm booked up today/tomorrow)
  299. # [13:25] <hsivonen> use case: editing patches that as a whole are both invalid UTF-8 and invalid windows-1252
  300. # [13:25] <annevk> JakeA: I'll do something as well
  301. # [13:26] <annevk> hsivonen: http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/index-x-mac-cyrillic.txt looks complete
  302. # [13:26] <hsivonen> annevk: cool thanks
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  304. # [13:27] <hsivonen> MacRoman, too, actually
  305. # [13:27] <hsivonen> wow
  306. # [13:27] <hsivonen> it's been so long since I've used MacRoman for something useful that I've forgotten that Mac encodings use all the available space
  307. # [13:28] <annevk> macintosh does have a PUA mapping
  308. # [13:28] <hsivonen> aargh. gedit doesn't support Mac encodings
  309. # [13:28] <hsivonen> it has stuff like UTF-32 and TCVN, but no Mac encodings at all
  310. # [13:29] <hsivonen> maybe I should use VISCII for this use case
  311. # [13:33] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: what’s the use case?
  312. # [13:34] <zcorpan> SimonSapin: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20140429#l-299
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  315. # [13:56] <zcorpan> jgraham: how do i take the tests here https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/quirks-mode/ and move them to web-platform-tests retaining history?
  316. # [13:58] <zcorpan> it seems the w3c haven't forked the quirks mode spec yet
  317. # [13:58] * MikeSmith adds that to his TODO list
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  319. # [13:59] <jgraham> zcorpan: Probably git-hg clone to create a git repo and then git subtree add to add it to wpt
  320. # [13:59] <jgraham> Going to experiment with the London transport network now, back online in a bit
  321. # [14:00] <zcorpan> jgraham: ok thx
  322. # [14:01] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: incentive pays for the number of forked specs eh?
  323. # [14:01] <zcorpan> that's why there were 27 canvas specs
  324. # [14:01] * zcorpan figured it out
  325. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> perceptive
  326. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> how to migrate a mercurial repo to subdirectory of an existing git repo and retain the history)
  327. # [14:02] <MikeSmith> oofs
  328. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I meant to say, what jgraham said
  329. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> about migrating that repo
  330. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> that's what I did to add the conformance-checkers/ stuff
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  332. # [14:05] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: ok great
  333. # [14:09] <zcorpan> pointer to git-hg ?
  334. # [14:17] <MikeSmith> http://hg-git.github.io/
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  336. # [14:17] <annevk> Oh my, I was just wondering whether my seatbelt was fastened while sitting in the office
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  338. # [14:19] <Ms2ger> Prepare for liftoff...
  339. # [14:26] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: thanks. i got an error when trying to install it :-(
  340. # [14:27] <zcorpan> Running dulwich-0.9.6/setup.py -q bdist_egg --dist-dir /tmp/easy_install-BsoHD7/dulwich-0.9.6/egg-dist-tmp-wHtFoJ
  341. # [14:27] <zcorpan> clang: error: unknown argument: '-mno-fused-madd' [-Wunused-command-line-argument-hard-error-in-future]
  342. # [14:27] <zcorpan> clang: note: this will be a hard error (cannot be downgraded to a warning) in the future
  343. # [14:27] <zcorpan> error: Setup script exited with error: command 'cc' failed with exit status 1
  344. # [14:27] * zcorpan gotta go
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  346. # [14:36] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/WD-tracking-dnt-20140424/#exceptions-javascript-api wtf
  347. # [14:41] <Ms2ger> "Push Server protocol: Mozilla and Google to kick-off a new draft at the IETF to standardize it."
  348. # [14:41] <Ms2ger> Because that went so well the last time?
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  351. # [14:42] <annevk> Ms2ger: I don't understand that either
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  353. # [14:43] <annevk> Ms2ger: both companies hired too much IETF apologists I suspect
  354. # [14:44] <Ms2ger> That may be the case
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  357. # [14:47] <Ms2ger> Heh
  358. # [14:48] <Ms2ger> Apparently w3.org thinks I'm in a "Test Framework Developers group" with URL http://w3c-test.org/framework/
  359. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, you can throw me out of that :)
  360. # [14:50] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: oh man I should just remove that whole group
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  362. # [14:50] <Ms2ger> Also, Testsuite Maintainers group
  363. # [14:51] <annevk> DNT :-(
  364. # [14:52] <annevk> Why the fuck does the W3C still allow groups to just go and invent some weird APIs without oversight? http://www.w3.org/2011/tracking-protection/drafts/tracking-dnt.html
  365. # [14:52] <annevk> Isn't this what "The Team" is supposed to be good at. Helping out?
  366. # [14:53] <annevk> Sorry MikeSmith, bit frustrated
  367. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> preaching to the choir
  368. # [14:54] <MikeSmith> well I guess I shouldn't say that
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  370. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> and I didn't even know the DNT spec introduced any APIs. but I can't blame anybody except myself for that, since all it requires is me to actually read the spec
  371. # [15:06] <beverloo> annevk, tricking me into giving feedback for DNT...?! ;-)
  372. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> good god almighty StoreSiteSpecificExceptionPropertyBag
  373. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> annevk: fwiw I also never got any heads up about that stuff from the team contacts for the group
  374. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> not that I remember
  375. # [15:08] <annevk> beverloo: it could use it :-)
  376. # [15:09] <annevk> There ought to be a meme for "Don't know what the fuck I'm doing. Let's ask for feedback during Last Call"
  377. # [15:09] <Ms2ger> Does the CSSWG have a logo we could use?
  378. # [15:09] <MikeSmith> anyway I'm pretty sure I would remember something mentionining "hey btw we're adding StoreSiteSpecificExceptionPropertyBagW
  379. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> *somebody mentioning to m
  380. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> *me
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  382. # [15:10] * Ms2ger wonders if MikeSmith got distracted from those silly groups
  383. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> my single interest in the tracking group is pretty much just reading Roy's messages to the WG list, and the responses to him, for the entertainment value
  384. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> anyway I blame the TAG
  385. # [15:13] <Ms2ger> Ooooh, more Hixie on www-archive
  386. # [15:13] <annevk> Ms2ger: http://www.w3.org/Style/Woolly/woolly-icon.svg
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  388. # [15:13] <Ms2ger> Good old Woolly
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  405. # [15:58] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: shepazu talked about making a new one
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  407. # [15:59] <annevk> SimonSapin: you suggested inlining "redirect count" and such at one point, right?
  408. # [15:59] <SimonSapin> annevk: context?
  409. # [15:59] <annevk> SimonSapin: I just looked into doing that, and it seems to require quite a bit more text than the current solution
  410. # [16:00] <annevk> SimonSapin: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/
  411. # [16:00] <SimonSapin> annevk: that was probably someone else
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  416. # [16:02] <gsnedders> Someone should write a wiki page or something with the varying problems of various standards groups
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  418. # [16:05] <annevk> There's http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/IETF
  419. # [16:05] <MikeSmith> Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental^W Standard-Group Disorders
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  423. # [16:12] <Domenic_> Hixie: what's an FSA draft?
  424. # [16:13] <annevk> Domenic_: http://www.w3.org/community/about/agreements/final/
  425. # [16:13] <Domenic_> Ah, so Hixie is saying that WHATCG snapshots should be published more often?
  426. # [16:14] <annevk> We haven't really done it yet
  427. # [16:14] <annevk> See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2014Apr/0039.html for reasons
  428. # [16:15] <Domenic_> That seems like a weak position to argue from :-/
  429. # [16:16] <annevk> W3C has no REC of plagiarized material, we have no FSA of original work
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  431. # [16:16] <annevk> Agreed that it's not ideal, I'm mostly trying to find a way to simplify the fetch algorithm
  432. # [16:17] <Domenic_> haha
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  442. # [17:02] <Domenic_> Hmm is Firefox actually shipping any promise-based APIs yet? Or did they just ship Promises to be awesome?
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  458. # [17:27] <Hixie> annevk: weird, it works now
  459. # [17:27] <annevk> Hixie: maybe DreamHost tried turning it off and on again
  460. # [17:29] <Hixie> heh
  461. # [17:29] <Hixie> i was getting the same as now just with some missing lines on the tracker index
  462. # [17:29] <annevk> oh
  463. # [17:31] <SamB> so is the "leave your sense of logic at the door" referring to the expectation that things will be logical? (Otherwise it seems like a really lousy suggestion.)
  464. # [17:31] <Hixie> basically
  465. # [17:31] <jgraham> SamB: Yes
  466. # [17:31] <Domenic_> Why do Asian websites use <marquee> so much? I've heard this fact but never understood why.
  467. # [17:32] <jgraham> People often come here and say things like "the platform would make more sense if X" where X is some thing that we can't do for compat reasons
  468. # [17:32] <jgraham> And when I say "people" I mean "everyone up to and including Hixie"
  469. # [17:32] <jgraham> So it is helpful to be able to say "see /topic"
  470. # [17:33] <jgraham> Particularly when it's Hixie or someone else that should know better ;)
  471. # [17:33] <Hixie> jgraham++ :-)
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  473. # [17:35] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  474. # [17:36] <annevk> Domenic_: I only have anecdotal data, but sites in Asia tend to be a lot more busy
  475. # [17:37] <annevk> Domenic_: people in that part of the world might enjoy that more, I've no idea
  476. # [17:38] <SamB> jgraham: yeah, that's what I figured
  477. # [17:38] <SamB> that it referred to the crazy stuff that must be done for compat
  478. # [17:39] <SamB> ... so what did Asia have to say about the death of <blink>?
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  506. # [18:07] <cwilso> Domenic_: <marquee> was a way to get vertical text layout in IE, well before vertical text layout was supported.
  507. # [18:07] <Domenic_> cwilso: ah nice, that makes a lot of sense!
  508. # [18:08] <cwilso> A very twisted hacky kind of sense, but yes. :)
  509. # [18:09] <cwilso> (redacted braindump of "@fonts", vertical-text fonts that had each glyph rotated and the baseline on the side, because that's how vertical text used to be done.)
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  514. # [18:10] <annevk> I'm somewhat surprised we still don't have vertical text if it's that important
  515. # [18:11] <SimonSapin> annevk: we’re working on it, but It’s Hard.
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  517. # [18:12] <SimonSapin> feel free to send feedback on http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/ ;)
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  519. # [18:13] <Ms2ger> Or implement it in Servo :)
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  525. # [18:28] <SimonSapin> Ms2ger: I hear that part is up to me
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  541. # [18:54] <Hixie> TabAtkins: is there a spec for 'display-box' yet that has browser adoption of any kind?
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  544. # [18:57] <annevk> Hixie: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-display/#the-display-box
  545. # [18:57] <annevk> Hixie: haven't seen intent to implement for it anywhere
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  549. # [19:03] <cwilso> annevk: yeah, vertical text the right way - or at least, a different-and-much-less-wrong way - has been cycling around for quite a while. IE did vertical text ca IE5 or so, if memory serves, using CSS writing-mode (I think, it's been a loooong time.)
  550. # [19:03] <cwilso> not necessarily any relation to current work SimonSapin mentioned. :)
  551. # [19:05] <SimonSapin> We’re working on display-box: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=907396
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  562. # [19:26] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Spec is what Anne pointed out. No implementations yet, though Blink is leaning toward one.
  563. # [19:26] <Hixie> k thanks
  564. # [19:27] <MikeSmith> Domenic_: a lot of Japanese mobile sites used marquee effect back in the WAP days. not using <marquee> but instead by some WAPish thing which name I forget. I wonder if if maybe they liked the effect so much that it ended up getting back-migrated to desktop sites.
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  569. # [19:40] <Hixie> bholley: any update on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20701 ?
  570. # [19:40] <bholley> Hixie: new Window bindings got delayed slightly - they might even be done this week. I was on jury duty yesterday, so I missed the status meeting
  571. # [19:40] <Hixie> k
  572. # [19:41] <bholley> Hixie: but yeah, just give it another couple of weeks
  573. # [19:41] <Hixie> awesome
  574. # [19:41] <bholley> Hixie: as soon as that stuff lands I'll land the new XO behavior
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  580. # [19:47] <Ms2ger> bholley, I don't think there was one
  581. # [19:47] <bholley> Ms2ger: do you know the status of the Window bindings?
  582. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> Nope
  583. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> I asked jst to relay it to me if he figured out
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  585. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> Oh, the buttons in the HTML spec don't look so awful now
  586. # [19:54] <Hixie> really? i think they're still pretty terrible
  587. # [19:54] <Hixie> i just don't know what to do that'd be better
  588. # [19:56] <Ms2ger> They looked more awful before :)
  589. # [19:56] <Hixie> looks particularly bad at the top of the PDF version for some reason
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  601. # [20:20] <cabanier> MikeSmith: ping
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  607. # [20:35] <cabanier> MikeSmith: http://www.w3c-test.org/2dcontext/fill-and-stroke-styles/2d.pattern.image.broken.html is supposed to throw an exception but the test is currently looking for a null return value
  608. # [20:36] <cabanier> MikeSmith: chrome throws an exception in my local testing but not for the test in your depot
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  610. # [20:36] <IZh> IZh: Hi. What you think about swapping page title and page navigation of developer's version pages?
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  614. # [20:40] <IZh> It is strange to me to scroll to the top of the page and do not see its title.
  615. # [20:40] <IZh> Currently the title is below the navigation.
  616. # [20:40] <SamB> that sounds like a good idea to me
  617. # [20:40] <SamB> Hixie: ^
  618. # [20:41] <IZh> http://developers.whatwg.org/text-level-semantics.html
  619. # [20:41] <Hixie> benschwarz: ^
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  621. # [20:41] <SamB> oh, that version
  622. # [20:41] <SamB> sorry
  623. # [20:41] * SamB forgot what "developers" meant
  624. # [20:42] <SamB> (confused it with "implementors" or something)
  625. # [20:43] <IZh> Also there are no links to Back and Top. Only Next.
  626. # [20:44] <IZh> I mean Back and Up.
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  636. # [21:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: any news on the encoding stuff?
  637. # [21:06] * SamB still thinks those link rels should be in the spec, even if they aren't currently used by much except old-school HTML generation tools -- they are GOOD rels which are probably never going to go away
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  639. # [21:07] <Hixie> "never going to go away" implies that they're not already gone
  640. # [21:07] <Hixie> in fact it implies that at some point they arrived
  641. # [21:08] <Hixie> and it's not clear to me that they ever did in any meaningful sense
  642. # [21:08] <SamB> well, okay, so yeah, there is that
  643. # [21:10] * SamB supposes if he really wants to help he should implement a toolbar that actually *works* that uses them ...
  644. # [21:12] <SamB> ... hmm, how come PDFs get all the fancy outline sidebars anyway ...
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  650. # [21:28] <jcgregorio> https://github.com/google/canvas-5-polyfill
  651. # [21:28] <jcgregorio> I just launched that, feedback welcome :-)
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  660. # [22:02] <cabanier> MikeSmith: http://www.w3c-test.org/2dcontext/fill-and-stroke-styles/2d.pattern.repeat.null.html is also testing an incorrect assumption. passing null to createPattern should not throw
  661. # [22:03] <cabanier> MikeSmith: the drawFocus tests will work on chrome canary with the pref turned on
  662. # [22:04] <Ms2ger> Oh really?
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  664. # [22:05] <Ms2ger> Interesting
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  666. # [22:06] <Ms2ger> PR?
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  697. # [22:44] <cabanier> Ms2ger: were you talking to me?
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  699. # [22:45] <Ms2ger> Yes
  700. # [22:46] <cabanier> :-)
  701. # [22:46] <cabanier> Ms2ger: are you saying createPattern should throw?
  702. # [22:46] <Ms2ger> Not anymore, no
  703. # [22:47] <cabanier> good
  704. # [22:47] <Ms2ger> So, want to fix the test? :)
  705. # [22:47] <Ms2ger> And add one for "null" as opposed to null; that should still throw
  706. # [22:47] <cabanier> yes. How do I do that?
  707. # [22:48] <Ms2ger> web-platform-tests in general or canvas tests in particular?
  708. # [22:48] <cabanier> the canvas tests
  709. # [22:48] <cabanier> brb
  710. # [22:49] <Ms2ger> Edit 2dcontext/tools/tests2d.yaml
  711. # [22:49] <Ms2ger> The format is pretty straightforward
  712. # [22:49] <Ms2ger> And then run 2dcontext/tools/gentest.py
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  732. # [23:38] <IZh> It seems it is impossible to specify dates B.C. because of year must be positive.
  733. # [23:38] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@151.205-242-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: nn)
  734. # [23:38] <IZh> I don't need it, but in some historic documents it is possible.
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  737. # [23:48] <gsnedders> IZh: IIRC there was no use-case for being able to explicitly mark them up, given we rarely know dates
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  739. # [23:56] <Hixie> yeah, if you go back more than a few 100 years, it gets realllllly complicated
  740. # [23:56] <Hixie> because e.g. our calendar didn't exist back then
  741. # [23:57] <gsnedders> Calendar is the least of the worries, really.
  742. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Yeah, just be glad we ended up allowing Proleptic Gregorian.
  743. # Session Close: Wed Apr 30 00:00:00 2014

The end :)