/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-05-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 01 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:01] <IZh> Ok :-)
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  10. # [00:12] <eligrey> i'd like to request an account for the wiki (desired username: eligrey)
  11. # [00:12] <eligrey> the first edit i'd like to make is writing up a navigator.cores proposal
  12. # [00:12] <eligrey> (which exposes the amount of total hardware threads available to the system)
  13. # [00:14] <eligrey> the wiki says to talk to "these permanent autoconfirmed members" (redlink) :/
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  18. # [00:20] <Hixie> eligrey: e-mail?
  19. # [00:20] <eligrey> me@eligrey.com
  20. # [00:20] <Hixie> done
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  22. # [00:24] <eligrey> ok thanks
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  38. # [01:06] <Hixie> anyone got a recent IE? what does http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2883 look like?
  39. # [01:07] <boogyman> by recent you mean nightly build or 11?
  40. # [01:08] <boogyman> i have 10.0.9
  41. # [01:10] <boogyman> http://minus.com/i/bpp3b2KgaK6Vy @ Hixie for IE 10.0.9
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  43. # [01:10] <Hixie> thanks
  44. # [01:11] <Hixie> interesting
  45. # [01:11] <Hixie> so safari and chrome do cross-origin font loads, but IE and mozilla do not
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  49. # [01:35] <hober> Hixie: http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-webapps-minutes.html#item02
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  64. # [02:04] <zewt> death to target=_blank.
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  70. # [02:09] <SamB> zewt: that did always seem like a dumb idea
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  74. # [02:23] <cabanier> MikeSmith: I submitted a couple of webkit patches for error handling: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=132407 and https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=132412
  75. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> cabanier: cool
  76. # [02:24] * MikeSmith takes a look
  77. # [02:26] <cabanier> MikeSmith: that should make WK turn green for 4 more tests
  78. # [02:28] <MikeSmith> cabanier: excellent
  79. # [02:29] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  80. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> cabanier: thanks for taking time on the testing stuff, and raising the bugs, and the patches
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  93. # [03:15] <Hixie> hober: i'm not sure what that is saying :-|
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  95. # [03:24] <MikeSmith> cabanier: trybots are indicating that test is still failing, right?
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  97. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25521 is a bit unsettling
  98. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> not that I disagree with the rationale
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  101. # [03:30] <MikeSmith> it's just, if we end up changing the platform do the point where authors can't get any useful linting/static-checking feedback done on their markup sources, that would suck
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  103. # [03:31] <MikeSmith> leading eventually to total societal breakdown
  104. # [03:31] <MikeSmith> "In accordance with prophecy"
  105. # [03:34] <cabanier> MikeSmith: yes, I missed some tests
  106. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> cabanier: ah ok
  107. # [03:36] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i have no idea what that bug is saying
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  109. # [03:37] <Hixie> MikeSmith: web components aren't valid in html currently. i presume that the web components people have some sort of solution for that, e.g. via the inheritance thing (<tr is="my-fancy-tr">)
  110. # [03:37] <MikeSmith> Hixie: "For these reasons, all of these content model rules should probably be discarded entirely" it says
  111. # [03:37] <eligrey> what's the wiki syntax for external links?
  112. # [03:38] <eligrey> i need to put a period after a link and i don't want it to be included in the link
  113. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I think you're being generous in that assumption ;-)
  114. # [03:38] <Hixie> MikeSmith: that seems like a non-starter. I mean, we can't make <p><html> valid, it would never do anything understandable.
  115. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> eligrey: it's just metawiki syntax, I think
  116. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> eligrey: [#FooBar] or such
  117. # [03:39] <eligrey> same for extenal links?
  118. # [03:39] <eligrey> i don't edit wikipedia, sorry :p
  119. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> eligrey: oh external
  120. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> eligrey: [http://foo link text here] I think
  121. # [03:39] <eligrey> thanks
  122. # [03:40] <eligrey> the wiki markup thing gives me a list of all the different types of markup
  123. # [03:40] <eligrey> you would think hovering over each item would give me a description, but no
  124. # [03:40] <eligrey> they all say "Click on the character or tag to insert it into the edit window"
  125. # [03:40] <eligrey> so helpful :)
  126. # [03:41] <eligrey> MikeSmith: anyways thanks for that
  127. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> wikis all suck
  128. # [03:41] <MikeSmith> eligrey: np
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  130. # [03:43] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah I guess in the proposed regime there'd still need to be a few prohibitions on markup that just would never make sense
  131. # [03:44] <MikeSmith> Hixie: but the bug seems pretty clear to meーshe's saying that the "optionally a caption element, followed by zero or more colgroup elements, followed optionally by a thead element, followed optionally by a tfoot element, followed by either zero or more tbody elements or one or more tr elements, followed optionally by a tfoot element (but there can only be one tfoot element child in total), optionally intermixed with one or more script-supporting eleme
  132. # [03:44] <MikeSmith> oops
  133. # [03:44] <MikeSmith> well anyway, that part
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  135. # [03:44] <Hixie> your comment cut off in the middle of the spec quote
  136. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> she's saying that's too constrained in the face of web components
  137. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> Hixie: was just quoting the spec, nothing more
  138. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> hadn't meant to quote the whole thing
  139. # [03:45] <Hixie> ah k
  140. # [03:46] <Hixie> i don't think that's right
  141. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> was going to put some ellipsis in there, since I'm pretty sure you're familiar somewhat with the part that follows
  142. # [03:46] <Hixie> i mean, sure, you'll want to allow elements to override <tr>, etc
  143. # [03:46] <MikeSmith> yeah
  144. # [03:46] <Hixie> but those elements still need to be real <tr>s at some level
  145. # [03:46] <Hixie> as in is=""
  146. # [03:46] <Hixie> or some similar solution
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  149. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> yeah I guess it would help there if she could give an actually markup example
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  151. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> I'll post a comment
  152. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> oh wait she did
  153. # [03:49] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/angular/angular.js/issues/7295
  154. # [03:49] * MikeSmith reads
  155. # [03:49] <MikeSmith> oh geez man
  156. # [03:49] <Hixie> that's about the parser
  157. # [03:49] <Hixie> not the content models
  158. # [03:49] <MikeSmith> yeah
  159. # [03:49] <MikeSmith> bingo
  160. # [03:49] <MikeSmith> yup
  161. # [03:51] <Hixie> it's amazing how many people confuse those two things
  162. # [03:51] <Hixie> i mean, that's not a criticism or anything
  163. # [03:51] <Hixie> i'm honestly just amazed at how confusing this apparently is
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  166. # [03:54] <boogyman> so do you think there's an opportunity to rephrase and/or add additional examples to the spec
  167. # [03:55] <Hixie> there's always the opportunity to rephrase and add examples
  168. # [03:55] <Hixie> post suggestions to http://whatwg.org/newbug :-)
  169. # [03:56] <boogyman> correct, but i would say that if "this" is an issue which has confused "many people", that might bump this opportunity higher on the priority list.
  170. # [03:57] <Hixie> oh, that particular issue
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  172. # [03:57] <Hixie> there's already entire sections that try to explain it
  173. # [03:57] <Hixie> i think teh confusion is mostly amongst people who haven't read the spec
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  179. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> the parsing behavior is just inherently confusing
  180. # [04:01] <Hixie> yeah that too
  181. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> and even when you read the spec, you don't want to believe that's how things actually work
  182. # [04:01] <Hixie> but it's the way people assume the content models have anything to do with that which is what i'm mostly talking about
  183. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> because, how dumb would that be, for people to create something that works that way
  184. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah
  185. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: maybe we could put some icon there
  186. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> like the fingerprinting icon
  187. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> to say, this is not a UA requirements
  188. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> I suggest this icon: https://avatars2.githubusercontent.com/u/568252?s=140
  189. # [04:04] <boogyman> argh! stupid firefox :( crashes on the single page spec page. haha MikeSmith
  190. # [04:04] <Hixie> MikeSmith: well, that's what developers.whatwg.org is supposed to be, really
  191. # [04:04] <MikeSmith> my firefox doesn't crash on it, just takes a long time to load
  192. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> Hixie: true
  193. # [04:05] <Hixie> MikeSmith: but the problem is people assume that the authoring requirements _are_ UA requirements
  194. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> right
  195. # [04:05] <Hixie> i mean, it's UA requirements this contributor is looking for
  196. # [04:05] <Hixie> so saying "don't look here, this is for UAs" might even be what is making them look at content models
  197. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> maybe we need a version with all the authoring requirements suppressed, and just have the UA requirements
  198. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> seriously
  199. # [04:06] <Hixie> that would be... interesting
  200. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> which I realize might require marking stuff with class=author
  201. # [04:06] <Hixie> a lot of work to do though
  202. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> yeah
  203. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> I remember when you did the class=impl change
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  206. # [04:13] <zewt> there's a pretty deep difference between implementation requirements and conformance criteria, the normative language that basically says "you must do this (but if you don't, everything will still work in a precisely defined way)" has always felt like a bad use of "must" to me
  207. # [04:13] <zewt> don't really know how it could be fixed...
  208. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> zewt: well the "Content model" sections don't contain any musts anyway
  209. # [04:16] <MikeSmith> or anything else normative-ish looking
  210. # [04:16] <Hixie> yeah, i just have one "must" in the definition of "content model"
  211. # [04:17] <MikeSmith> oh?
  212. # [04:17] * MikeSmith wonders which
  213. # [04:17] <Hixie> "content model. A normative description of what content must be included as children and descendants of the element."
  214. # [04:17] <zewt> well, replying to authoring requirements vs. UA requirements
  215. # [04:18] <Hixie> it's actually redundant with "An HTML element must have contents that match the requirements described in the element's content model." a few paragraphs later
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  219. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> Hixie: as another data point about the confusion: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25501
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  223. # [04:29] <MikeSmith> confusion about "content models" vs types of content (flow, phrasing, etc.)
  224. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> and asking that "empty" be defined as a content type
  225. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> so yeah it is confusing
  226. # [04:32] <Hixie> that's a different problem. That's the problem of people who forget the english language while reading the spec. :-P
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  229. # [04:48] <MikeSmith> Hixie: not so fair, man :-)
  230. # [04:48] <Hixie> come on, that bug is basically just the guy saying he doesn't know what "empty" means
  231. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> it's kind of terms-of-art usage of English
  232. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah true in that case
  233. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> it does come down to that
  234. # [04:49] <Hixie> i guess the real problem is assuming that a word is a term of art when it's just english
  235. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> hmm yeah
  236. # [04:50] <Hixie> but i don't know what else the term would mean
  237. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> sometimes empty just means empty
  238. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> yup
  239. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> there is the void vs empty thing though
  240. # [04:50] <Hixie> well "void" doesn't mean anything clear, so assuming it's a term of art seems reasonable :-)
  241. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> which is good, and an improvement over what we had before
  242. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> sure
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  257. # [06:09] <Hixie> sweet lord there's a lot of script data states
  258. # [06:32] <Domenic_> +1 for a for-UAs version of the spec, containing the actually-normative stuff.
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  323. # [11:30] <annevk> Hixie: aaah, we already have listener observation of sorts with http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#upload-events-flag
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  385. # [15:53] <zewt> annevk: i wonder if it would be web-compat to change that to "set the upload events flag if the xhr.upload property has been accessed"
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  389. # [15:54] <annevk> zewt: possible
  390. # [15:54] <annevk> There's also http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#garbage-collection
  391. # [15:54] <zewt> a different sort of lameness, but maybe a lesser one
  392. # [15:55] <zewt> that seems okay, i think...
  393. # [15:55] <zewt> (also a little weird that accessing .upload would mean requests complete even if you throw away the object when they wouldn't otherwise, but not catastrophic)
  394. # [15:56] <zewt> oh, you mean another event listener check. hmm
  395. # [15:56] <zewt> personally I intuitively thought that XHR would always complete the request if I let go of it, even if I wasn't listening for anything on it
  396. # [15:57] <zewt> is there a reason to not just never GC the object while the request is in the air?
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  398. # [15:58] <zewt> could see interop issues there, eg. function send_keepalive() { var xhr = new XHR(); xhr.open("http://api.server.com/ping"); xhr.send(); } may or may not actually send the ping, depending on GC (if I understand correctly)
  399. # [15:58] <annevk> EventSource and WebSocket do the same; they might need it more, granted
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  401. # [15:59] <zewt> makes more sense for streaming things that would never close on their own
  402. # [15:59] <annevk> Heh, interesting case
  403. # [16:00] <annevk> zewt: actually in that case it would deliver the ping
  404. # [16:01] <annevk> zewt: at HEADERS_RECEIVED the ping is already at the other side
  405. # [16:01] <annevk> zewt: which does argue that the upload related check is wrong...
  406. # [16:06] <zewt> annevk: can you clarify the and/or gruoping in that section
  407. # [16:06] <zewt> An ... (state is opened and send() flag is set), (state is RECEIVED), or (state is LOADING and one of the following is true)?
  408. # [16:06] <zewt> also grouping
  409. # [16:07] <zewt> (that's what it seems like based on what it's trying to do, just a bit unobvious from a naive reading)
  410. # [16:07] <annevk> Hehe, source has "Based on EventSource and WebSocket. Not sure what I am doing."
  411. # [16:08] <zewt> might argue that this is okay from an event API standpoint, because the difference is unobservable to script (it just means "if there are listeners to hear it, do keep going"), but ...
  412. # [16:09] <zewt> so in this case i guess what it's really doing is saying "if nobody is listening, you don't actually have to read the whole POST body"
  413. # [16:10] <Ms2ger> In a tree falls in the forest...
  414. # [16:10] <zewt> maybe that's arguably an implementation detail anyway
  415. # [16:10] <Ms2ger> *If, dammit
  416. # [16:10] <zewt> forest.dispatchEvent(new Event("TreeFell"));
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  418. # [16:13] <zewt> surprised that websocket is spying on event listeners, i thought that was only done with event handlers
  419. # [16:13] <annevk> zewt: added a commit
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  421. # [16:13] <annevk> zewt: it's only about the response body
  422. # [16:14] <annevk> zewt: might be observable from the server if the UA actively kills the connection
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  425. # [16:14] <zewt> right, but there are plenty of things we seem okay with being observable from the server that we're not in script...
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  427. # [16:15] <zewt> (resource caching behavior, etc)
  428. # [16:16] <zewt> the upload events flag is the bigger one, though
  429. # [16:19] <zewt> afk, heading to work
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  431. # [16:23] <annevk> Yeah, not sure how to fix that or if
  432. # [16:24] <annevk> "Invariants" seem to be screwed over left and right
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  443. # [17:12] <Domenic_> annevk: you forgot to add `s around your HTML tags so your issue makes no sense :P
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  445. # [17:14] <annevk> Domenic_: fixored
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  447. # [17:14] <annevk> Domenic_: seems weird GH removes stuff it doesn't do anything with
  448. # [17:16] <annevk> Domenic_: what behavior-only objects are you talking about?
  449. # [17:16] * annevk hasn't seen many
  450. # [17:17] <Domenic_> annevk: I'm trying to get the spec editor to tell me if there's hidden state, but https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcrypto-api/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html#dfn-SubtleCrypto seems at first glance to be behavior-only.
  451. # [17:19] <annevk> Domenic_: with functions that access privileged APIs elsewhere somehow?
  452. # [17:19] <Domenic_> annevk: I don't understand the question?
  453. # [17:20] <annevk> Domenic_: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcrypto-api/raw-file/tip/spec/Overview.html#dfn-SubtleCrypto-method-encrypt can't be implemented without "magic"
  454. # [17:20] <Domenic_> annevk: why do you say that? It just runs some well-specified algorithms, which are accessible to any Turing machine.
  455. # [17:22] <annevk> Domenic_: as in, all those functions want to share some algorithms, such as "normalize"
  456. # [17:22] <annevk> (which appears to be a broken link...)
  457. # [17:22] <Domenic_> Sure, functions can call other functions ...
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  459. # [17:24] <annevk> Domenic_: anyway, any other examples?
  460. # [17:27] <Domenic_> annevk: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/quota/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#idl-def-StorageQuota, given that supportedTypes is a constant (not mutable state)
  461. # [17:28] <annevk> That has NoInterfaceObject, so can you distinguish it from an ordinary object?
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  463. # [17:30] <Domenic_> annevk: I believe Object.getPrototypeOf(navigator.storageQuota) would give back a StorageQuota, not Object.
  464. # [17:30] <Domenic_> even if window.StorageQuota doesn't exist.
  465. # [17:31] <annevk> Ah, I suspect that's probably true
  466. # [17:31] <Domenic_> Yeah, first sentence of http://heycam.github.io/webidl/#interface-prototype-object
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  469. # [17:38] <annevk> Modules and IDL support for them is what we need for a lot of this stuff
  470. # [17:38] <Domenic_> indeeeed
  471. # [17:38] <Domenic_> probably worth waiting on implementations for that though.
  472. # [17:38] <annevk> Do modules have a concept of being scoped to particular types of realms?
  473. # [17:38] <annevk> E.g. we can't have DOM in workers...
  474. # [17:39] <Domenic_> I imagine different realms would have different built-in module loaders, and thus different built-in modules.
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  486. # [18:21] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  493. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> cwilso, I got the eternal question from our implementor... Why XML and Http in XHR?
  494. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> Length?
  495. # [18:40] <annevk> Conventions
  496. # [18:40] <annevk> It was HttpRequest shipped as part of the XML library
  497. # [18:41] <SamB> see /topic ?
  498. # [18:42] <annevk> :)
  499. # [18:42] <SamB> though I guess actually people are actually after the story
  500. # [18:42] <SamB> +sometimes
  501. # [18:42] <SamB> -actually
  502. # [18:42] <Ms2ger> I'm certainly not going to suggest implementing XmlHttpRequest in Servo
  503. # [18:43] <jgraham> Well no
  504. # [18:43] <jgraham> If you were picking the name you would probably choose Request
  505. # [18:43] <Ms2ger> And not implement this API at all
  506. # [18:43] <annevk> You'd pick fetch and you'd pass it a Request
  507. # [18:43] <annevk> oh wait
  508. # [18:55] <Hixie> the inspecting of event listeners is to make GC not observable
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  511. # [18:57] <zewt> grr is there nothing less crappy than gettext for python localization
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  513. # [19:00] <SamB> is there ever anything less crappy than gettext?
  514. # [19:00] <SamB> I mean, for the same purpose
  515. # [19:01] * SamB prepares to take notes
  516. # [19:01] <zewt> dunno, i just want something not crappy
  517. # [19:02] <SamB> well, what about it is your problem?
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  519. # [19:04] <zewt> at the moment it happens to be fighting with pygettext, which apparently has no support for extracting comments for strings
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  521. # [19:06] <SamB> that does look bad
  522. # [19:10] <SamB> zewt: have you tried xgettext?
  523. # [19:14] <SamB> zewt: it appears to be *intended* to work with Python, and it of course supports such things
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  535. # [19:44] <Manishearth> Ms2ger: why do we have readyState in XMLHttpRequest as a `short`?
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  539. # [19:44] <Ms2ger> Why not?
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  541. # [19:45] <Manishearth> Ms2ger: it runs from 0-4. And I don't think that's going to increase much -- at least not above 8
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  587. # [22:20] <TabAtkins> annevk: GH doesn't "remove stuff it doesn't do anything with". If you don't wrap HTML elements in `s, *they're HTML elements*, and so you don't see them in the visible text obviously.
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  597. # [22:40] <zewt> i don't know any good reason to specify ints as "shorts" in most cases, they're just integers
  598. # [22:40] <zewt> SamB: works a bit better, but seems to suck at recursively handling file trees...
  599. # [22:41] <Domenic_> TabAtkins: it probably sanitizes them though.
  600. # [22:41] <SamB> zewt: isn't that what find is for
  601. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> Domenic_: Possibly, yeah.
  602. # [22:41] <zewt> sure, but i'm having to jump a lot of hoops
  603. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> I know it allows <img> and such through.
  604. # [22:41] <zewt> i need to say xgettext -j to make it combine with a previous execution (in case xargs splits it into multiple invocations)... but that means I need to delete the file before running it, so it doesn't join with a previous execution... but if I say -j when the file *doesn't* already exist, it throws an error
  605. # [22:41] <SamB> yeah, what the heck is short
  606. # [22:42] <SamB> (are there any specs that already use short for something?)
  607. # [22:42] <SamB> zewt: hmm.
  608. # [22:42] <zewt> so i have to delete the file, then only add -j on the second and further invocations, which i don't know how to do with xargs
  609. # [22:42] <zewt> there's a -D "add DIRETORY to list for input files search" which sounds like what I want, but it doesn't seem to actually work
  610. # [22:43] <SamB> zewt: maybe --files-from= helps?
  611. # [22:43] <zewt> it also says "If input file is -, standard input is read", which should let me avoid xargs entirely, but that doesn't seem to work either
  612. # [22:43] <SamB> I think -D is for if you don't know where the files actually are
  613. # [22:44] <SamB> possibly to make things "easier" for out-of-tree builds
  614. # [22:44] <zewt> the word "footgun" comes to mind
  615. # [22:44] <SamB> hence the scare quotes
  616. # [22:45] <SamB> I don't know, maybe it's actually possible to use it in a useful way
  617. # [22:45] <zewt> wonder if the python gettext module has code to compile .po's so i can do it at runtime, precompiling to .mo is pointless for me (it's a server)
  618. # [22:46] <SamB> http://docs.python.org/library/gettext should have the answer
  619. # [22:46] <zewt> oh well, guess i'll write a script to invoke xgettext, it'll take less time
  620. # [22:47] <SamB> zewt: so did you try --files-from=<(find ...)
  621. # [22:47] <zewt> wouldn't i have to output the file list to a temp file (maybe --files-from=- works)
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  623. # [22:48] <zewt> oh hey that does seem to work
  624. # [22:48] <SamB> yes it does
  625. # [22:48] <SamB> it doesn't know what the heck to do with CWEB's .w files, but boy does it find them
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  627. # [22:48] <zewt> i think my stuff is encapsulated enough that it won't run into a bunch of stuff to confuse it
  628. # [22:49] <SamB> I was just trying a random example that'd work in the tree I was in
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  630. # [22:49] <zewt> like when I was trying to package a web view's javascript files inside a Unity package, which Unity promptly interpreted as JS and tried to run as Unity code
  631. # [22:49] <zewt> thanks, stop that
  632. # [22:49] <SamB> mostly in case I was not remembering my shell syntax correctly
  633. # [22:50] <zewt> gettext is still very... 90s?
  634. # [22:50] <SamB> woah, copyright starts in '95 ?
  635. # [22:50] <SamB> I was expecting '8x
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  637. # [22:54] <SamB> hmm, changelog for GCC starts in '91 with "Freshly created ChangeLog."; no idea when gcc was created
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  639. # [22:55] <Ms2ger> "GCC 1.0 was released in 1987"
  640. # [22:55] * SamB goes to do "git log Makefile.in" in the binutils-gdb repo, which is subsetted from the old src/ repo ...
  641. # [22:56] * SamB tries again "git log -- Makefile" ...
  642. # [22:57] <SamB> nothing
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  646. # [23:00] * Quits: morbidlyobese (~morbidlyo@gateway/tor-sasl/morbidlyobese) (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
  647. # [23:00] * Joins: morbidlyobese (~morbidlyo@gateway/tor-sasl/morbidlyobese)
  648. # [23:00] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.216.47) (Quit: weinig)
  649. # [23:02] * Quits: Areks_home (~Areks@95-26-45-140.broadband.corbina.ru) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  650. # [23:03] * Joins: srji (~srji@p508BBEDB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  651. # [23:07] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  652. # [23:10] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED57922.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  653. # [23:11] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  654. # [23:15] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@89.17.128.127) (Quit: barnabywalters)
  655. # [23:16] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.216.47)
  656. # [23:21] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.216.47) (Client Quit)
  657. # [23:23] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  658. # [23:23] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.216.47)
  659. # [23:25] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.216.47) (Client Quit)
  660. # [23:32] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.216.47)
  661. # [23:38] * Quits: yoav (~yoav@37.160.252.141) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  662. # [23:43] * Quits: srji (~srji@p508BBEDB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  663. # [23:48] <zewt> "1.0 released in 1987" suggests they started on it circa 1972
  664. # [23:49] * Joins: Streusel (~Anonymous@unaffiliated/streusel)
  665. # [23:59] <Hixie> hmm
  666. # [23:59] <Hixie> it's apparently been a while since i read my bugmail
  667. # [23:59] <Hixie> 4,767 e-mails...
  668. # [23:59] <Hixie> (and that's after filtering)
  669. # Session Close: Fri May 02 00:00:00 2014

The end :)