/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-05-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 07 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:03] <Hixie> lol. i try to open an HTML file that has content-disposition:attachment in firefox
  6. # [00:03] <Hixie> firefox is like "oh hell no, i ain't opening this! wanna send it to chrome?"
  7. # [00:03] <Hixie> sure, firefox, throw chrome under the bus. :-P
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  10. # [00:17] <Hixie> TabAtkins: any feedback on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24991 ? in particular, what BBB should be?
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  12. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> Oh, BBB should probably be a pseudo-class.
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  14. # [00:23] <kbrosnan> Hixie: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/inlinedisposition/?src=ss
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  18. # [00:23] <Hixie> TabAtkins: do you really think it's worth introducing a pseudo-class just for this?
  19. # [00:24] <Hixie> i mean, i agree in theory
  20. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Yeah, sure. Modal dialogs seem usefully detectable.
  21. # [00:24] <Hixie> k
  22. # [00:24] <Hixie> do i just spec that out, or do i file a bug on selectors, or...?
  23. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> Preferably email www-style.
  24. # [00:25] <Hixie> k
  25. # [00:25] <TabAtkins> That way I can talk about it in the telcon tomorrow and agree to either add it to Selectors or let HTML define it.
  26. # [00:26] <Hixie> (are we working on anything that explains pseudo-classes? seems like this kind of thing can could up often with new components. we're already defining pseudo-elements of some sort, right?)
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  28. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> For pseudo-classes, yes: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-extensions/
  29. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> For pseudo-elements, no, not yet.
  30. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> But it's on my radar.
  31. # [00:27] <Hixie> cool
  32. # [00:28] <Hixie> hmm, neat ideas in that spec
  33. # [00:28] <Hixie> i look forward to it :-)
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  35. # [00:30] <Hixie> message regarding :modal sent to www-style
  36. # [00:30] <Hixie> oh, crap, i failed to not give a suggested name. damnit.
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  38. # [00:30] <Hixie> i specifically didn't want to give a proposed name, and i screwed up at the very end and didn't notice until i'd sent it
  39. # [00:30] <Hixie> -_-
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  55. # [01:09] <zcorpan> my grep for foster parentings in webdevdata resulted in a 4.6 MB file :-|
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  65. # [01:23] <Hixie> zcorpan: what did you search for?
  66. # [01:24] <zcorpan> Hixie: https://gist.github.com/zcorpan/c330049466a705f714b7
  67. # [01:25] <Hixie> ah yeah, similar to what i tried
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  69. # [01:25] <Hixie> i got so many hits that our internal system just told me to make the query more specific and that it couldn't give me the results
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  71. # [01:28] <caitp> anyways, like I said on the bug, what if the spec were altered in a backwards compatible way?
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  73. # [01:29] <caitp> like, don't reparent tags whose local name contains a hyphen (which is suggested in custom elements), or, don't reparent if the not in quirks mode, or...
  74. # [01:29] <zcorpan> caitp: see comment 21
  75. # [01:30] <zcorpan> quirks mode doesn't help here
  76. # [01:30] <caitp> if you have element foo-bar, you probably don't care about old browsers
  77. # [01:30] <caitp> your app is probably not targeting old browsers
  78. # [01:30] <zcorpan> why wouldn't you care about old browsers for foo-bar?
  79. # [01:31] <zcorpan> you could use a custom elements polyfill for old browsers
  80. # [01:31] <caitp> because you're either using custom elements, or you're using a framework which targets modern browsers, like Angular or Ember
  81. # [01:32] <zcorpan> i don't see how either of those mean you don't care about old browsers
  82. # [01:32] <zcorpan> (old browsers here includes all browsers that exist today)
  83. # [01:33] <caitp> the frameworks in particular are working to make old browsers irrelevant, we don't want to care about them
  84. # [01:33] <caitp> we'd all be very happy if they just evaporated
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  86. # [01:34] <caitp> and as for custom elements, well, if you do care about old browsers, you could use a hack like is=*
  87. # [01:34] <zcorpan> i think we're thinking different things about "old browser"
  88. # [01:34] <caitp> I'm not talking about netscape 2
  89. # [01:35] <zcorpan> let's say browsers accept to do your change
  90. # [01:35] <zcorpan> in 1 year from now, firefox is first out to ship the change
  91. # [01:35] <zcorpan> then firefox is "new" and chrome, safari, opera, ie, everyone else is "old"
  92. # [01:35] <zcorpan> would you not care about everyone but firefox?
  93. # [01:36] <caitp> no, so here's what happens
  94. # [01:36] <caitp> change takes time, it takes time to make minor fixes, it takes time to make sure that the spec makes sense
  95. # [01:37] <caitp> but if we agree that we want something to be sensible in the future, this means committing to start fixing this stuff. and that doesn't mean it has to happen all at once
  96. # [01:37] <caitp> so you could say "well, we'll roll this in in a backwards compatible fashion, and drop the old way in 6-10 years"
  97. # [01:37] <caitp> nothing has to happen all at once, but it's good to have a direction to go in
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  99. # [01:38] <caitp> and from my perspective, the direction for the web is not "make it more insane", but quite the opposite
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  101. # [01:39] <caitp> so over some period of time, whether it's 5 years or 10, marriagebuilders.com and kingsex.eu can work to fix their layouts, if they still exist by then
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  103. # [01:39] <caitp> (which is probably being optimistic)
  104. # [01:40] <zcorpan> there's no incentive for them to fix the markup
  105. # [01:40] <caitp> and even if their layouts break, a little bit, I'll bet most of them are still readable
  106. # [01:40] <caitp> and if they don't fix their markup, who cares?
  107. # [01:41] <zcorpan> i don't
  108. # [01:41] <caitp> their users are going to install a virtual machine to watch porn or something on ie11?
  109. # [01:41] <caitp> so what?
  110. # [01:41] <caitp> it's not a good reason to hold sanity back
  111. # [01:43] <caitp> I think we can make this work so that authors don't have to write unreadable garbage markup just to make poorly thought out parsing rules happy
  112. # [01:43] <zcorpan> i think you have it backwards how the parsing algorithm came into being
  113. # [01:44] <caitp> I know how it came into being
  114. # [01:44] <caitp> it doesn't have to continue to be irrational
  115. # [01:44] <zcorpan> then why do you say it is poorly thought out?
  116. # [01:44] <caitp> because it is
  117. # [01:44] <zcorpan> how?
  118. # [01:44] <caitp> inconsistent with the rules of the rest of the browser -> poorly designed
  119. # [01:44] <caitp> it's a shaky foundation that you don't want to build a house on
  120. # [01:45] <zcorpan> .... now i'm either very confused or i'm back to "i think you have it backwards how the parsing algorithm came into being"
  121. # [01:45] <zcorpan> anyway i need to sleep
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  123. # [01:46] <caitp> I understand that they had some silly idea that they needed to deal with peoples crap markup in some way
  124. # [01:47] <zewt> (hint: starting with "everything you're doing is silly" isn't a very productive way to open a conversation)
  125. # [01:47] <caitp> but in this case in particular, it's complete crap, you don't re-arrange peoples markup, especially when there's no reason to
  126. # [01:47] <caitp> well, what else do you call it zewt, there's a lot of silly nonsense on the web
  127. # [01:48] <zewt> (another hint: start by asking why it's being done the way it is, since you don't appear to know)
  128. # [01:48] <caitp> okay, I'll take your hint and ask you
  129. # [01:48] <caitp> why do we feel it's necessary to re-arrange markup that someone purposefully wrote in some fashion
  130. # [01:49] <zewt> i'm the wrong person to ask, but my understanding is: if the spec demands that browsers do things which break existing webpages, even "silly crap" webpages, browsers won't do it and the spec becomes irrelevant
  131. # [01:49] <zewt> if you want details, especially about a particular case, ask the editor for the spec you're reading
  132. # [01:49] <caitp> I can understand that
  133. # [01:50] <caitp> I don't think the person who came up with the html parser is still doing this, they must be in their 90s by now
  134. # [01:51] <zewt> where the parser originally came from is academic (and probably very complicated)
  135. # [01:52] <caitp> and it wouldn't be polite to bother a 90 year old enjoying their retirement in florida
  136. # [01:52] <Hixie> more like early 40s... it was only 20 years ago
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  138. # [01:53] <caitp> I have a tendency to exaggerate, Hixie :)
  139. # [01:55] <caitp> but, I don't think I'm going to find them to ask why they decided to re-arrange authored content --- however I've read things by other people who have had similar critiques (and yes, a lot of them were xml people)
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  141. # [01:57] <Hixie> i doubt they did it very consciously
  142. # [01:57] <Hixie> though the guy who thrust <i><b></i></b> on us is, iirc, cwilso_____
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  200. # [05:32] <zewt> those small, dubious bits of fame
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  203. # [06:06] <zewt> sort of amazing how libjpeg is one of the most reliable libraries in existence, with such a terrible api
  204. # [06:06] <zewt> i guess the fact that if you misuse it, it tends to implode immediately instead of subtly six months later helps
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  208. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> cabanier: do you have any idea of what the intent of the following change was?
  209. # [06:11] <MikeSmith> cabanier: https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/22b565f08ca451729d845cd39997b65585d06732
  210. # [06:12] <MikeSmith> cabanier: I realize you didn't make the change. Jay did. I'm just trying to figure out what his goal was.
  211. # [06:12] <cabanier> MikeSmith: yes. This clarifies the behavior of createPattern and makes the normative text match the box above
  212. # [06:13] <cabanier> MikeSmith: It also makes it match the whatwg spec
  213. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> cabanier: OK
  214. # [06:13] <MikeSmith> cabanier: I ask because I'm trying to get the document ready for publication, and it's failing validation because Jay introduced a markup error when he made the change.
  215. # [06:14] <cabanier> MikeSmith: the webkit bug to make this work on webkit is here: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=132407
  216. # [06:14] <cabanier> MikeSmith: ah
  217. # [06:14] <cabanier> MikeSmith: anything I can do?
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  220. # [06:16] <MikeSmith> cabanier: nah I can fix it myself I guess, assuming that the stuff at https://github.com/w3c/html/commit/22b565f08ca451729d845cd39997b65585d06732#diff-36cd38f49b9afa08222c0dc9ebfe35ebR42788 is a mistake
  221. # [06:16] <MikeSmith> I can't see what else it would be
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  223. # [06:17] <cabanier> MikeSmith: it looks like a mistake
  224. # [06:17] <MikeSmith> cabanier: ok
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  236. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> cabanier: btw it seems that change was only made on the html5_canvas_CR branch, right?
  237. # [06:42] <cabanier> MikeSmith: likely
  238. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> ok
  239. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> cabanier: it doesn't need to be made on the nightly branch?
  240. # [06:43] <cabanier> MikeSmith: it should but we haven't brought everything over yet
  241. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> ok
  242. # [06:44] <cabanier> MikeSmith: once level 1 is CR, we can do level 2 in earnest
  243. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> I see
  244. # [06:44] <cabanier> MikeSmith: move over all changes, start stripping unimplemented features, etc
  245. # [06:48] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  271. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> cabanier: so I've spent an hour and half now dealing with fixes to get canvas CR document to pass pubrules, despite having been told the document was "ready to go"
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  277. # [08:35] <cabanier> MikeSmith: did Jay not run them?
  278. # [08:35] <cabanier> I guess he didn't
  279. # [08:35] <cabanier> MikeSmith: sorry about that!
  280. # [08:40] <dbaron> hrmmmm
  281. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> cabanier: Jay doesn't seem to be able to figure out the build steps. The build setup is baraque and unclear to me also but the way I figure it out is by looking at the code for the python scripts the build uses.
  282. # [08:41] <dbaron> bounces of emails that are rejected by the whatwg list come from the exact same envelope sender as messages *on* the list, and thus they get filtered in my mail setup to the folder with the list mail... and thus I miss the fact that my messages to the whatwg list are all being rejected for being GPG-signed
  283. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> cabanier: I would think that anybody else who had any experience dealing with headaches of trying to use an arcane build process that somebody else made would do the work of going through the same process that I'm doing right now.
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  285. # [08:42] <MikeSmith> cabanier: instead, I have to do it. Because Jay apparently just kind of threw his hands up and gave up.
  286. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> cabanier: Which I don't mind really except that his name is on the document as the editor who's responsible for it.
  287. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> cabanier: or one on the names
  288. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> cabanier: frankly I really can't figure out what value the rest of the canvas editors are adding here
  289. # [08:44] <MikeSmith> cabanier: but I would like at a minimum that they first do no harm
  290. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> cabanier: so that I don't have a spend hours cleaning after their bungling
  291. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> cabanier: seriously I would really prefer that you be the single editor of the W3C document and the others just please get out of the way
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  297. # [08:49] <MikeSmith> dbaron: can't speak to the envelope-sender problem but I vaguely recall that when I sent GPG-signed messages to the whatwg list before, I had to do them in the inline-signing way instead of with the signature as an attachment
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  304. # [09:02] <SamB> MikeSmith: eww!
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  311. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> is heading::after { content: leader(dotted) }
  312. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> ... currently valid in CSS?
  313. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> or content: leader(". ")
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  319. # [09:46] <krit> zcorpan: Hi. Do you travel to Seoul?
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  321. # [09:48] <zcorpan> krit: yep
  322. # [09:48] <krit> zcorpan: cool, want to ask for FPWD of Geometry Interface there
  323. # [09:48] <Ms2ger> You know you can just send that to the list too, right?
  324. # [09:48] <zcorpan> krit: i don't mind FPWDing it
  325. # [09:49] <krit> Ms2ger: I need to do it anyway. Just want to check if the other editors are fine with the next step :)
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  328. # [09:57] <foolip> Hixie: I haven't created a bug for the XHTML <input> bug, I discovered it while writing that comment. when cloning the content attribute is copied and the IDL attribute is set to true
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  343. # [11:31] <annevk> ffffuuuu
  344. # [11:31] <annevk> Domenic_: http://www.w3.org/TR/media-source/#mediasource new list objects and methods to manipulate them that aren't even on the list objects...
  345. # [11:33] <annevk> Hixie: you might want to take a look at that API too o_O
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  347. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: I been saying for a while that I wish you guys would be looking at the MSE spec carefully. I see now that kinetik sent an intent message for it
  348. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> anyway I guess I could have made more noise about it
  349. # [11:36] <annevk> MikeSmith: I thought we convinced them to stop using createObjectURL()
  350. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> annevk: I thought they should be able to to realize that by themselves
  351. # [11:37] <MikeSmith> didn't even realize that was still in there
  352. # [11:37] <annevk> MikeSmith: there's too much uninformed people writing specs; W3C shouldn't accept anyone willing without giving them proper guidance
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  354. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> well yeah
  355. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> but the decisions about editors should be made by WGs
  356. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> and the chairs of WGs
  357. # [11:39] <annevk> sure, but there's Team people assigned to WGs too
  358. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> and that requires compentency and discernment on the part of chairs
  359. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> annevk: true
  360. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> if the decisions were mine we'd have quite a few less editors
  361. # [11:41] <annevk> there's that too, assigning multiple editors to a single specification is asking for trouble
  362. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> sometimes there are good reasons for it
  363. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> but many times there aren't
  364. # [11:42] <annevk> but editors not keeping track of IDL discussions is really problematic when it's all still being figured out
  365. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> annevk: that spec predates some of the recent discussions
  366. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> it's already been implemented and shipped and it's being used in production
  367. # [11:43] <annevk> in Chrome and IE?
  368. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> the time to scrutinize it carefully was last year, or before
  369. # [11:43] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah
  370. # [11:43] <annevk> oh
  371. # [11:43] <annevk> bah
  372. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> Netflix is using it, others are too
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  374. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> annevk: anyway I take your point about the W3C team needing to assert more responsibility over not just accepting anybody as editors just because they're willing
  375. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> the "giving them proper guidance" part is the hard part
  376. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> so fail to adhere to guidance even after it's given
  377. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> but aside from that it seems like the spec reviews the TAG has been providing have helped
  378. # [11:50] <annevk> If Jeff wants to continue to make the point that the W3C needs staff, they better do something
  379. # [11:50] <annevk> Yeah a bit
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  381. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> annevk: I have yet to see any editors respond outright negatively to any specific changes requested in TAG review
  382. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> it seems like they pretty much have been very glad to have the review
  383. # [11:51] <annevk> It's more that the TAG hasn't done much review
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  386. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> annevk: I guess they should do more then
  387. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> as fun as it is to hate on authority, I guess sometimes having an authority to answer to helps keep people honest
  388. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> I mean it's a lot harder for some editor or WG to just blow off comments from the TAG than it is for the editor or WG to do that to an individual reviewer
  389. # [11:58] <annevk> Which is fucked
  390. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> sure
  391. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> it's fucked that WGs can blow off comments without consequences
  392. # [11:58] <annevk> E.g. I think http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/01/wai-aria-objection is still unresolved
  393. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> but again the main responsibility there is supposed to be on the chairs to act in good faith and make sure that all comments are either resolved to satisfaction or brought the Director's attention
  394. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah in that case during the transition call they actively misrepresented the status of your comment
  395. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> as far as I can see
  396. # [12:00] <annevk> Would not surprise me
  397. # [12:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: btw, if that MediaSource thing is implemented, how does the Stream thing work that's mentioned in the draft?
  398. # [12:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: I guess that bit isn't implemented?
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  401. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> dunno but yeah I'd guess that part may not be in the implementations
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  422. # [13:14] <annevk> Why the fuck does Firefox still prompt for this? http://dump.testsuite.org/xhr/upload-redirect.html
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  424. # [13:17] <annevk> smaug____: can you explain why in that URL there's no progress event before the prompt?
  425. # [13:24] <smaug____> hmm
  426. # [13:25] <annevk> also, the prompt needs to die, just commented on the bug that sicking filed ages ago
  427. # [13:26] <smaug____> ah, upload progress
  428. # [13:26] <smaug____> why would there be upload progress before the prompt ?
  429. # [13:29] <smaug____> redirect, then you upload the data
  430. # [13:30] <annevk> smaug____: how do you know there's a redirect?
  431. # [13:30] <annevk> smaug____: data is part of the request, redirect is the response
  432. # [13:32] <smaug____> redirect is part of request too
  433. # [13:32] <smaug____> no
  434. # [13:32] <smaug____> ?
  435. # [13:32] <annevk> no
  436. # [13:32] <annevk> -> lunch
  437. # [13:32] <smaug____> well, it is
  438. # [13:33] <smaug____> since there is the other connection to the redirected url
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  442. # [13:38] <smaug____> annevk: what happens if you send some more data and redirect
  443. # [13:40] <zcorpan> jgraham: could critic be less silent about tracking breaking? maybe it could add a new comment in the PR?
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  446. # [13:42] <jgraham> zcorpan: It's very noisy to me :)
  447. # [13:43] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  448. # [13:43] <jgraham> eah. I think with a bit of work I could maybe make it try to rebase automatically. But I'm not sure
  449. # [13:48] <zcorpan> yeah best would be if it figured things out and tracking wouldn't break of course :-)
  450. # [13:48] <smaug____> annevk: but redirects are interesting from progress events point of view
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  458. # [14:13] <annevk> smaug____: yes they are
  459. # [14:14] <annevk> smaug____: I'm trying to figure out https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=882458
  460. # [14:14] <annevk> smaug____: which adds CORS to the mix
  461. # [14:14] <smaug____> annevk: anyhow, I think it is some timing issue that redirect handling gets handled before some queued upload notifications.
  462. # [14:14] <smaug____> annevk: so uploading some huge data might give different results
  463. # [14:15] <smaug____> for the prompt case
  464. # [14:18] <smaug____> annevk: per spec what should happen to the upload progress events in case of redirect
  465. # [14:21] <annevk> smaug____: I think what we do is correct
  466. # [14:21] <annevk> smaug____: redirects should not be observable from the page as they happen
  467. # [14:21] <annevk> smaug____: apart from the prompt, we shouldn't prompt
  468. # [14:21] <smaug____> well, XHR case
  469. # [14:22] <smaug____> perhaps the API user would like to know
  470. # [14:23] <annevk> smaug____: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24375 we can't reveal much about redirects
  471. # [14:24] <smaug____> don't browsers change POST to GET in case of certain 30x responses
  472. # [14:24] <smaug____> what happens to the data
  473. # [14:25] <annevk> smaug____: it won't be included in the subsequent request
  474. # [14:26] <annevk> smaug____: that can probably use some clarification in the Fetch Standard I suspect
  475. # [14:27] <smaug____> annevk: yet responseURL url points to the final url, which might have got the data after all
  476. # [14:28] <annevk> smaug____: no
  477. # [14:28] <smaug____> wait, what
  478. # [14:29] <annevk> smaug____: you do a request with a body attached; you get a response that redirects and degrades to GET; you do another request to the new URL without body attached; you get a response
  479. # [14:29] <smaug____> responseURL is what?
  480. # [14:29] <annevk> responseURL will point to the new URL
  481. # [14:29] <smaug____> exactly
  482. # [14:29] <annevk> how would it get the data?
  483. # [14:29] <smaug____> the final url
  484. # [14:29] <annevk> it's only included in the first request
  485. # [14:29] <smaug____> er, oops
  486. # [14:29] <smaug____> s/ might have got the data after all/ might not have got the data after all/
  487. # [14:30] <annevk> ah
  488. # [14:30] <smaug____> so that is odd API
  489. # [14:30] <smaug____> you thought you sent data somewhere
  490. # [14:30] <annevk> and you did
  491. # [14:30] <smaug____> and you think you know where it went...
  492. # [14:30] <annevk> so yes, you can't figure out if the data was sent several times or not
  493. # [14:31] <annevk> I didn't design HTTP...
  494. # [14:31] <smaug____> yup
  495. # [14:31] <smaug____> yeah, this is just silly, but ok
  496. # [14:31] <smaug____> annevk: could you still test post with large upload data
  497. # [14:32] <smaug____> browser does know where it uploaded the data, so perhaps XHR should tell that
  498. # [14:33] <annevk> we could maybe expose redirect response codes
  499. # [14:34] <annevk> redirectStatuses = ["307", "308"]
  500. # [14:34] <annevk> then you'd know your request body was uploaded thrice
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  512. # [15:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: if you have some time, can you please look https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/959 from caitp (changes to test for for the XHR spec)
  513. # [15:25] <MikeSmith> these commits: https://github.com/caitp/web-platform-tests/commit/e0b1ae96b20fe2df95fc339e74e98d341ab2c28e & https://github.com/caitp/web-platform-tests/commit/3adde96454f633bdf537e13b18c70b5ff17e11ac
  514. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> related to https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues/958
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  516. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> apparently Hallvord made a test change a while back to match some change that had been made to the spec
  517. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> and/or I guess I could also ask Hallvord to look at it
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  519. # [15:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: better ask hallvors, but I added some comments
  520. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> oh thanks
  521. # [15:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: second change seems wrong at least
  522. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> just sawa your comments
  523. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> I'll ping Hallvord too
  524. # [15:31] <caitp> the second change is not wrong, I commented explaining why
  525. # [15:31] <annevk> yes it is
  526. # [15:31] <annevk> events can be dispatched synchronously and they're
  527. # [15:31] <caitp> if a browser complies with the spec exactly, then UNSENT will never be set before the event is dispatched
  528. # [15:31] <annevk> there's nothing in the spec that says a task is queued
  529. # [15:31] <annevk> correct
  530. # [15:31] <annevk> but the events are not dispatched from a queue
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  532. # [15:31] <caitp> and therefore, asserting that the readyState is UNSENT during the event listener will never assert correctly
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  534. # [15:33] <annevk> oh wait, I guess I should have looked at more context
  535. # [15:35] <annevk> caitp: sorry, my bad
  536. # [15:35] <annevk> caitp: looking at https://github.com/caitp/web-platform-tests/blob/master/XMLHttpRequest/abort-event-order.htm it seems better to move the "state should be UNSENT" check to where xhr.abort() is called
  537. # [15:35] <jtcranmer> new URL("http://" + domain) should fail if ToASCII fails, right?
  538. # [15:35] <annevk> jtcranmer: yes
  539. # [15:35] * jtcranmer glares at Firefox
  540. # [15:35] <caitp> I can't remember if that test uses a synchronous request or not
  541. # [15:36] <caitp> but I agree, a timeout isn't ideal
  542. # [15:36] <annevk> caitp: if it was sync you wouldn't be able to invoke abort()
  543. # [15:36] <caitp> yeah
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  545. # [15:37] <caitp> right, I see what you mean
  546. # [15:41] <caitp> i suppose testharness.js doesn't have a way to say "expect N assertions during this test" or something, does it?
  547. # [15:48] <zewt> sounds like a headache ("which assertion is missing?")
  548. # [15:49] <caitp> well, potentially
  549. # [15:50] <caitp> I prefer it to var someAsyncPathWasReached = false; and asserting it is true at some point to be sure it was called, though
  550. # [15:50] <caitp> or, somePathWasReached*
  551. # [15:50] <MikeSmith> caitp: testharness.js doesn't provide any way to do that afaik
  552. # [15:51] <MikeSmith> if it has a way jgraham would know
  553. # [15:51] <caitp> I was just looking through it and it doesn't record the number of assertions called
  554. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> right
  555. # [15:52] <MikeSmith> wait though
  556. # [15:53] <MikeSmith> it's possible to report the number of assertions after the test has run
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  558. # [15:54] <caitp> maybe with steps.length?
  559. # [15:57] <jtcranmer> annevk: would you say it's safe to implement URL.domainTo* right now?
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  564. # [16:00] <odinho> caitp: sometimes having a results array where you push stuff like "upgradeneeded", "success" etc is a nice way imho. Then you get both ordering, not any extras (as long as you add to results even on unexpected events) and clear errors and docs.
  565. # [16:00] <annevk> jtcranmer: yeah
  566. # [16:00] <annevk> jtcranmer: I can remove the note
  567. # [16:00] <annevk> jtcranmer: with everyone roughly agreeing on UTS #46 I think we're done
  568. # [16:00] <jtcranmer> I think that'll be easier to get implemented in Firefox than trying to make new URL("") properly handle punycode
  569. # [16:00] <annevk> jtcranmer: well... we should really fix both
  570. # [16:01] <annevk> jtcranmer: they both hook into the same underlying concept
  571. # [16:01] <annevk> jtcranmer: so please file bugs
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  573. # [16:01] <jtcranmer> annevk: yes, but in terms of implementation details :-)
  574. # [16:01] <jtcranmer> annevk: oh, were you going to add some sort of notion of displayable Unicode variants for the homograph attack issue
  575. # [16:02] <annevk> caitp: any reason you can't move VerifyResult to after xhr.abort() ?
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  577. # [16:02] <annevk> caitp: xhr.abort() puts the whole synchronously in the can so that seems fine
  578. # [16:02] <annevk> whole thing*
  579. # [16:03] <caitp> that would probably be okay
  580. # [16:03] <annevk> jtcranmer: my idea was to add domainToUI() for to match what the UI does
  581. # [16:03] <jtcranmer> okay
  582. # [16:04] <caitp> kind of weird to submit another CL for that test right after the other one was merged though :p but I can see how that would benefit non-compliant browsers better
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  584. # [16:06] <annevk> oh hallvors just merged it :/
  585. # [16:06] <annevk> he shouldn't have merged that
  586. # [16:06] <annevk> oh well
  587. # [16:06] <annevk> it's mostly because it would be a lot better to not have setTimeout there
  588. # [16:07] <caitp> yeah, I'll send another one, I just want to make sure it passes first
  589. # [16:08] <caitp> well, nightly fails it :>
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  594. # [16:17] <annevk> jtcranmer: if you're going to implement and want toUI letting me know would be good
  595. # [16:17] <annevk> jtcranmer: please cc me on those bugs
  596. # [16:17] <jtcranmer> annevk: I'm thinking about implementing
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  598. # [16:18] <annevk> jtcranmer: if you need spec updates ping me as well, I try to prioritize stuff that gets implemented
  599. # [16:19] <jtcranmer> annevk: it's more like "I need this feature for my own content code and the suckiness of new URL in Firefox killed my idea for a polyfill"
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  602. # [16:19] <annevk> jtcranmer: you might get baku to fix new URL, but maybe not
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  604. # [16:20] <jtcranmer> annevk: I know from some experience that there might be a slight internal compat issue with nsURL
  605. # [16:25] <jtcranmer> annevk: filed and CC'd
  606. # [16:29] <annevk> jtcranmer: ta
  607. # [16:30] <annevk> where is smaug?
  608. # [16:30] <annevk> anyway, he was correct, http://dump.testsuite.org/xhr/upload-redirect.html now tests a largish blob
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  622. # [16:54] <IZh> What is the time zone of Ben Schwarz?
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  624. # [16:59] <annevk> IZh: Australian iirc
  625. # [17:00] <IZh> annevk: Thanks.
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  652. # [17:47] <smaug____> annevk: ping
  653. # [17:47] <annevk> smaug____: http://www.nohello.com/
  654. # [17:48] <smaug____> while xhr is being processed, the value of responseURL may change, right?
  655. # [17:48] <smaug____> ping is not hi
  656. # [17:48] <smaug____> except based on nohello
  657. # [17:48] * smaug____ doesn't like nohello
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  659. # [17:49] <annevk> smaug____: responseURL is either "" or the URL
  660. # [17:49] <smaug____> annevk: right, say before redirection it has some value, and after that something else
  661. # [17:50] <smaug____> it is not something for the final url only
  662. # [17:50] <annevk> smaug____: no, redirects are not exposed
  663. # [17:50] <smaug____> hmm
  664. # [17:50] <annevk> smaug____: they are atomic
  665. # [17:50] <smaug____> the spec is hard to read these days
  666. # [17:50] <annevk> smaug____: you made that comment before, I can't do much with that
  667. # [17:51] <jgraham> smaug____: The point is that you could have compressed "ping"; (ack); (question); (answer) into (question); (answer) and saved a rtt
  668. # [17:52] <smaug____> the spec says "An XMLHttpRequest has an associated response"
  669. # [17:52] <jgraham> The Mozilla habit of doing "ping" rather than just saying something is pretty annoying
  670. # [17:52] <smaug____> but it doesn't seem to say that response thing is actually defined in Fetch
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  672. # [17:54] <smaug____> annevk: so what in the spec says redirects aren't exposed
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  675. # [17:59] <annevk> smaug____: Fetch follows redirects before returning a response
  676. # [17:59] <smaug____> hmm
  677. # [18:00] <smaug____> ok, so in which state should XHR be in order to return non-empty responseURL
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  679. # [18:01] <annevk> smaug____: HEADERS_RECEIVED
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  684. # [18:04] <smaug____> ok, thanks
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  686. # [18:04] <smaug____> r- for the responseURL patch then
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  688. # [18:07] <annevk> smaug____: the way to read the spec is that response is a network error, whose url is null
  689. # [18:07] <smaug____> that is one thing which is surprising
  690. # [18:07] <annevk> smaug____: we update response for the first time when we change the state to HEADERS_RECEIVED, using the "process response" callback from the network layer
  691. # [18:08] <smaug____> that response is in error state even before anything has happened
  692. # [18:08] <smaug____> some uninitialized state might make it easier to read
  693. # [18:08] <annevk> smaug____: it's kind of convenient since it fills in a bunch of attributes by default
  694. # [18:09] <annevk> smaug____: but I could do that and have if/else all over too I suppose
  695. # [18:09] <annevk> more text :(
  696. # [18:09] <smaug____> sure, but no need to optimize the pseudo code spec has here, IMO
  697. # [18:09] <smaug____> that pseudo code isn't after all compiled to binary
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  699. # [18:10] <annevk> smaug____: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25589
  700. # [18:10] <smaug____> thanks
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  746. # [19:26] <Hixie> dbaron: what's the mime type i should allow?
  747. # [19:28] <dbaron> Hixie, multipart/signed, perhaps? Though I think I've fixed my setup so it doesn't sign messages To or Cc to whatwg@{lists.,}whatwg.org
  748. # [19:28] <dbaron> (I forgot about Cc and lists.whatwg.org the last time I did that.)
  749. # [19:29] <Hixie> i've added multipart/signed to the list
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  767. # [20:09] <cwilso_____> hixie: yes, you do recall correctly that I'm personally responsible for overlapping <b> and <i> tags.
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  770. # [20:11] * SamB tries to remember if those actually appeared in an ICFP contest, or if that demanded a more well-formed markup ...
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  773. # [20:21] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i just got some 504s from Firefox on Bugzilla, so i guess it's not Chrome's fault
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  823. # [22:02] <caitp> I'm trying to find where, in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html or possibly http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/history.html, it would say that a user agent should not scroll to a fragment identifier if the fragment identifier is already in the frame's location
  824. # [22:03] <caitp> what might be a better place to look for that, because I'm not seeing anything which would result in that behaviour
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  826. # [22:04] <caitp> (gecko, blink and safari all seem to share that behaviour, so I assume it's in there somewhere, and it probably shouldn't be)
  827. # [22:04] <caitp> s/safari/webkit
  828. # [22:05] <SamB> caitp: hmm?
  829. # [22:05] <SamB> got a page to show what you mean?
  830. # [22:05] <caitp> hang on, I'll get an example
  831. # [22:06] <caitp> https://github.com/angular/angular.js/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md -> click on the code of conduct link, which will navigate to the #coc fragment
  832. # [22:06] <caitp> then scroll up and click on it again
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  836. # [22:16] <zewt> (a "contributing" page that starts out with "code of conduct" sure makes me not want to contribute)
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  838. # [22:18] <caitp> well, you're welcome to not contribute if you wish ^_^
  839. # [22:19] <SamB> maybe steal linux.git's thing
  840. # [22:19] <SamB> "certificate of origin", was it?
  841. # [22:20] <caitp> the discussion is really about navigating to fragment identifiers, and not about CoCs :p It's just an example
  842. # [22:21] <SamB> hmm, that example seems to (unaccountably) require JS ... at least, it's not working with the scripts blocked ...
  843. # [22:21] <caitp> really
  844. # [22:23] <caitp> hmm, maybe I can make a simple example in pure html real quick
  845. # [22:25] <caitp> huh, you're right, it does seem to be a js thing
  846. # [22:26] <caitp> well, that's kind of a relief at least
  847. # [22:26] <SamB> I wasn't sure if the strangeness was from JS or not, but the ToC link didn't even seem to work without it
  848. # [22:28] <caitp> yeah, that's kind of a relief
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  856. # [23:01] <Hixie> does arabic use the same baseline as roman/latin scripts?
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  861. # [23:08] <SamB> hmm, Type1 spec doesn't seem to cover metrics ...
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  863. # [23:10] * SamB finds http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2011/06/where-latin-and-arabic-meet-a-bridging-of-two-alphabets.html when he googles ...
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  865. # [23:12] <Hixie> yeah i didn't find anything useful doing tons of google searches on the subject, weirdly
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  875. # [23:23] <SamB> Hixie: I'm going to go with a "it looks like they sure can", because that lady *seems* to use the same baseline for both from what I can see of the pictures there ...
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  877. # [23:23] <SamB> oh maybe I should check the index of TAOCP
  878. # [23:23] <astearns_> Hixie: this image from rishida suggests that Arabic uses an alphabetic baseline http://rishida.net/docs/unicode-tutorial/part6#baseline
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  880. # [23:23] <Hixie> astearns_: thanks, that does seem pretty clear
  881. # [23:24] <Hixie> SamB: the problem is that any individual picture will make it look like all letters in all scripts use the same baseline because unless you're doing ugly things with the font size, they'll always be roughly aligned
  882. # [23:24] <astearns_> how it uses the baseline is pretty different in calligraphic Arabic
  883. # [23:24] <Hixie> oh?
  884. # [23:25] <astearns_> a curved or slanted baseline for a group of characters must touch the baseline
  885. # [23:25] <astearns_> but only at one point
  886. # [23:25] <astearns_> s/touch the baseline/touch the straight baseline/
  887. # [23:26] <Hixie> i'm going to pretend i didn't hear that
  888. # [23:26] <Hixie> la la la
  889. # [23:26] <SamB> astearns_: I'm going to assume computer typography isn't ready to produce this automatically in any case
  890. # [23:27] <SamB> obviously the people who first try to do that in a browser will have a lot of room to experiment ...
  891. # [23:27] <astearns_> SamB: I found docs for a software package that does it right as I was googling
  892. # [23:27] <SamB> oh?
  893. # [23:28] <astearns_> gah, now I have to find it again :)
  894. # [23:28] <SamB> I guess, more to the point, WEB BROWSERS suck at straight-line typography as it is
  895. # [23:28] <astearns_> SamB: ah, an old, no longer maintained package: http://freetype.org/opentype/index.html
  896. # [23:29] <SamB> hah
  897. # [23:29] <astearns_> so the next question is whether harfbuzz handles it
  898. # [23:29] <SamB> oh wait that's a package name?
  899. # [23:29] <SamB> I thought it was the font format's name
  900. # [23:29] <SamB> ah, freetype *1*
  901. # [23:29] <SamB> that wasn't in the URL
  902. # [23:30] <SamB> astearns_: anyway, presumably hixie was talking about the flat one
  903. # [23:31] <SamB> I still think harfbuzz is a strange name for a package ...
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  917. # [23:50] <caitp> the idlharness test failures in wpt are really, really hard to understand :(
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  922. # [23:52] <zewt> okay, websocket "masking" needs to be shot into the sun
  923. # [23:53] <MikeSmith> Hixie: hard to troubleshoot the 504s since so far the systems team has told me they find nothing strange in the logs on the server side
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  925. # [23:53] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah
  926. # [23:53] <Hixie> MikeSmith: dunno what could be causing it
  927. # [23:54] <Hixie> MikeSmith: earlier today bugzilla was being REALLY slow, lots of 504s in both firefox and chrome
  928. # [23:54] <Hixie> it's a bit better now
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  930. # [23:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I'll ask them to check again
  931. # Session Close: Thu May 08 00:00:00 2014

The end :)