/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-05-12 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  45. # Session Close: Mon May 12 02:49:56 2014
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  48. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  52. # [02:51] * Topic is 'http://www.whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  140. # [03:55] <Hixie_> anyone got any suggestions for how ATs should handle exposing headings on pages like www.terminix.com ?
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  143. # [03:56] <Hixie_> looks like they just changed <div> for <section> for no apparent reason
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  145. # [03:57] <SamB> (the solution may involve a large trout?)
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  216. # [09:34] <zcorpan> jgraham: ping https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/1464
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  221. # [09:52] <foolip_> nessy: are Mondays still your WebVTT day?
  222. # [09:52] * foolip_ is now known as foolip
  223. # [09:52] <foolip> now that I'm back in Sweden the time overlap is a lot smaller...
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  231. # [10:21] <annevk> http://xkcd.com/1367/ <3
  232. # [10:22] * annevk is back on the +1 timezone too
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  236. # [10:28] <foolip> annevk: nice xkcd :)
  237. # [10:29] <foolip> annevk: which is the least objectionable w3.org for the DOM fork? https://github.com/silviapfeiffer/webvtt-spec/commit/512ed724dd26e78fdc6c24329b2f70077a7e8fb7
  238. # [10:29] <foolip> +URL
  239. # [10:30] <annevk> They're all pretty objectionable
  240. # [10:30] <JakeA> hah
  241. # [10:31] <annevk> But if I was forced to pick, http://w3c.github.io/dom/ maybe?
  242. # [10:31] <zcorpan> foolip: can't you reference the whatwg one?
  243. # [10:32] <foolip> zcorpan: I'd love to
  244. # [10:32] <foolip> I'll just ask nessy then
  245. # [10:32] <jgraham> zcorpan: Done
  246. # [10:32] <zcorpan> thx jgraham
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  248. # [10:40] <JakeA> annevk: Any idea how "ready" ES6 maps & iterators are?
  249. # [10:40] <annevk> JakeA: ES6 maps are done
  250. # [10:40] <JakeA> annevk: Done like promises were, or actually done? :D
  251. # [10:40] <annevk> JakeA: iterators are more or less done, though there's a discussion on generators going on still on es-discuss I think
  252. # [10:40] <annevk> JakeA: Map is shipped by multiple implementations
  253. # [10:41] <JakeA> Gotcha
  254. # [10:41] <JakeA> annevk: Worried about iterators and ServiceWorker. Don't want them to hold us up.
  255. # [10:41] <annevk> JakeA: they want to sign off on ES6 within a couple of months, so they better not change much
  256. # [10:42] <annevk> JakeA: the AsyncMap idea does not make much sense as Domenic_ explained I think
  257. # [10:42] <annevk> JakeA: and returning a promise for an iterator does not make much sense either, what you really want is an asynchronous iterator, which is ES7-maybe material
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  259. # [10:44] <JakeA> annevk: Having an async way to get stuff from a cache is a must & we can't wait for ES7
  260. # [10:45] <annevk> JakeA: is iteration a must for v1?
  261. # [10:46] <annevk> JakeA: we're discussing two things here; 1) importance of AsyncMap (does not seem important) 2) importance of iteration and whether that should be async-per-item or async-for-all-items-at-once
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  263. # [10:46] <JakeA> annevk: I'm at-best indifferent to AsyncMap
  264. # [10:47] <JakeA> annevk: In terms of iteration, I'm happy to drop forEach, but need to keep values/keys
  265. # [10:49] <annevk> JakeA: what I mean by async-iterator btw is that you get a promise of sorts for each value, meaning you can get the initial value much quicker
  266. # [10:49] <annevk> JakeA: the current approach requires getting all the keys/values
  267. # [10:49] <annevk> JakeA: unfortunately there's no primitive for that yet
  268. # [10:50] <annevk> JakeA: but I think if you had an AsyncMap, it'd be more like that
  269. # [10:51] <annevk> JakeA: my suggestion would be to not bother with AsyncMap as it cannot exist without an implementation and just create a minimal cache API, explaining the constraints
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  271. # [10:53] <JakeA> annevk: I don't have many use-cases for getting multiple items out of the Cache/CacheList. It's mostly for cleanup in onactivate.
  272. # [10:54] <annevk> JakeA: we could consider offering cleanup methods without exposing the primitives they are built on until we have asynchronous iteration
  273. # [10:54] <annevk> JakeA: I recommend looping in Domenic_ when he wakes up in a couple of hours as he prolly has some insight
  274. # [10:54] <JakeA> yeah
  275. # [10:55] <JakeA> annevk: Don't want to make too many assumptions around use-cases, want it open to devs as much as possible
  276. # [10:56] <JakeA> annevk: Will continue this when Domenic_ is up. Maybe slightlyoff too, he's got bigger asyncmap opinions than I do
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  295. # [12:42] <smaug____> do any algorithm in specs use functions in the pseudocode
  296. # [12:42] <annevk> smaug____: what do you mean?
  297. # [12:43] <smaug____> perhaps I just need to define two different things
  298. # [12:43] <smaug____> where one uses the other one
  299. # [12:44] <annevk> smaug____: you're writing a spec?
  300. # [12:44] <smaug____> annevk: effectively "pass arguments FOO and BAR to function FOOBAR and store the return value in RETVAL"
  301. # [12:44] <smaug____> annevk: just an algorithm
  302. # [12:45] <annevk> smaug____: you can do that, but you need to be very clear the function is the initial value of some property at the start of the lifetime of the global scope
  303. # [12:45] <annevk> smaug____: so it can't be overwrriten
  304. # [12:45] <smaug____> oh, I mean function would be in pseudo-code level
  305. # [12:45] <smaug____> not a JS thing or anything
  306. # [12:45] <annevk> smaug____: and usually style is Let RETVAL be the result of invoking FOOBAR with FOO and BAR.
  307. # [12:46] <annevk> smaug____: oh, that happens all the time, see e.g. how the URL parser is invoked at various places
  308. # [12:48] <smaug____> "the result of ..." is perhaps the keyword I need
  309. # [12:55] <smaug____> but no real functions
  310. # [12:55] <smaug____> one needs to describe what happens
  311. # [12:56] <smaug____> in prose
  312. # [12:56] <smaug____> and perhaps link to somewhere
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  314. # [13:09] <smaug____> ah, shadow dom event path makes events to skip window object
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  317. # [13:25] <nessy> foolip_: yes, Mondays I work on WebVTT and other spec stuff
  318. # [13:25] <nessy> foolip, zcorpan: we did end up referencing the WHATWG DOM spec
  319. # [13:26] <zcorpan> nessy: cool
  320. # [13:26] <Ms2ger> Makes sense
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  324. # [13:43] <zcorpan> what should i use to create/edit animated gifs?
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  330. # [14:07] <darobin> zcorpan: the short answer is: you shouldn't
  331. # [14:07] <darobin> zcorpan: more helpfully, I guess it depends on what your comfortable environment is
  332. # [14:07] <darobin> on the CLI, imagemagick can create animated GIFs
  333. # [14:08] <darobin> IIRC there are also some export plugins for Photoshop
  334. # [14:08] <darobin> and a bunch of small, simple UI tools
  335. # [14:08] <darobin> last I did this was with imagemagick, but it's been a rather long while
  336. # [14:08] <darobin> crufty but it works
  337. # [14:08] <zcorpan> i don't have photoshop. i can check out imagemagick, thanks
  338. # [14:09] <darobin> zcorpan: this seems to have the right docs: http://www.imagemagick.org/Usage/anim_basics/
  339. # [14:09] <zcorpan> darobin: perfect
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  345. # [14:32] <annevk> JakeA: I msised the GitHub issue, seems Domenic_ made identical points to me
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  363. # [15:40] <odinho> zcorpan: Gimp has an animation extension that I know many people has used. But again, depends on what you need to do/create it from.
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  365. # [15:44] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: thanks for the chocolate!
  366. # [15:44] <Ms2ger> :)
  367. # [15:45] <newbie|2> hello ... I would like to create smooth transactions between web pages? you have any advice? some indication?
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  369. # [15:53] <darobin> odinho: I'm not sure that friends let friends use Gimp :)
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  372. # [15:57] <jgraham> Eh
  373. # [15:57] <jgraham> It's not so bad
  374. # [15:57] <jgraham> I mean it's hardly like telling someone to use vim
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  376. # [15:59] <odinho> I quite like Gimp. :) Not as much as Inkscape, Darktable and Scribus (for different things though), but I'm quite effective in it if I need to do some manipulating :)
  377. # [15:59] <darobin> okay, in fairness I haven't tried it in years
  378. # [15:59] <darobin> but the switch from Photoshop was pretty... brutal
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  381. # [16:03] <jgraham> Darktable is pretty brutal if you have tried Aperture (if I remember which one that is)
  382. # [16:04] <odinho> I'm sure, but I haven't.
  383. # [16:04] <jgraham> It was like "we almost copied the interface, but only got half the functionality. However we made it four times as complicated so you probably won't notice.:
  384. # [16:04] <jgraham> "(but will instead give up in frustration)"
  385. # [16:11] <darobin> that's a bit how Gimp felt
  386. # [16:11] <odinho> I think it has much to do with which one you do first as well.
  387. # [16:11] <darobin> "We copied pretty much all the functionality, but instead of putting it behind convenient key bindings or UI buttons we have this unique approach of a context menu seven levels deep where you can easily find everything"
  388. # [16:12] <odinho> Darktable is one of the most effective programs I've worked with for my pictures. So it can't all be bad. I like it a lot.
  389. # [16:14] <jgraham> odinho: I might like it if I hadn't previously used Lightroom. Which is what I previously meant when I said "Aperture".
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  391. # [16:15] <odinho> Yes. I continue to not be amazed that software houses with $millions and many developers, photographers, ux people and the like are able to make good products.
  392. # [16:16] <jgraham> I'm not sure I was asking you to be amazed
  393. # [16:17] <odinho> You were not, I was saying something about my expectations for different software.
  394. # [16:18] <odinho> I have started to use unfree Lightworks for video editing, though. But I still dabble with the free Linux video editors now and then. But unlike every other field, the free linux video editors are just not good enough.
  395. # [16:19] <jgraham> Well that evidently depends on how much you value free / low expectations vs quality
  396. # [16:19] <jgraham> I would *love* there to be a guenuine alternative to Lightroom that was open source
  397. # [16:19] <jgraham> Maybe Darktable will become that thing
  398. # [16:19] <jgraham> Then I wouldn't have to reboot into Windows just to edit photos
  399. # [16:20] <odinho> Well, -- I seem not to know what I'm missing from Lightroom, which is just as well for me.
  400. # [16:20] <jgraham> But at the moment the quality difference is high enough that I do have to :(
  401. # [16:20] <odinho> I'm super happy with Darktable. Gave me much more than any other software I've used before did. :)
  402. # [16:20] <Ms2ger> Emscripten lightroom? :)
  403. # [16:20] <odinho> Ms2ger: Kinda hard for proprietary software, no?
  404. # [16:21] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Yeah, supposedly Adobe like the web today
  405. # [16:21] <jgraham> Although I guess they would have to emscripten Lua too, which could be interesting
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  409. # [16:27] <zewt> gimp just seemed stuck in a mid-90s UI, tons of floaty windows
  410. # [16:28] <jgraham> I think they fixed that
  411. # [16:28] <ondras> recent builds have the "one window" mode
  412. # [16:28] <zewt> been quite a while since i've looked at it (nothing but photoshop is actually an option in the wild, typically)
  413. # [16:28] <ondras> OTOH some people prefer that floating approach
  414. # [16:28] <ondras> still, the Gimp is very hard to use properly.
  415. # [16:29] <zewt> photoshop's learning curve is a bit steep, but everyone has already passed it
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  417. # [16:29] <odinho> I never understood the "nothing but PS is an option". I've several times asked people to give before/after pictures they've done, and allow me to do the same thing in Gimp.
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  419. # [16:30] <ondras> odinho: well the shadow/highlight feature is hard to do properly in gimp
  420. # [16:30] <ondras> as an example.
  421. # [16:31] <ondras> also, things trivial in PS - text outline/shadow for instance - is complicated in gimp and not adjustable once generated
  422. # [16:31] <zewt> i get UI mockups from our artist as PSDs that I have to be able to use (and sometimes edit and send back)
  423. # [16:31] <zewt> pretty common
  424. # [16:31] <zewt> (not to say file format lock-in is a good thing, but it's there)
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  426. # [16:32] <odinho> Yeah, I use Inkscape for text and vector stuff. Only use Gimp for actualy image manipulation. For adjustment Darktable is better, for vector-stuff Inkscape is better. For layout Scribus is better. One tool for each job.
  427. # [16:32] <ondras> well PSD as a web developer's input format is also mid-90s if you ask me
  428. # [16:33] <zewt> we use PSDs for all UI, works well for us
  429. # [16:33] <zewt> (not just for web, for iOS, Android, etc)
  430. # [16:34] <ondras> http://shelby.tv/video/youtube/e7-ZnHMDZto/julie-ann-horvath-because-f-k-photoshop-jsconf-eu-2012
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  432. # [16:34] <jgraham> IIRC the main missing piece in gimp is adjustment layers
  433. # [16:34] <jgraham> Which have been coming RSN for like a decade
  434. # [16:35] <odinho> jgraham: Yeah, agree. That is sorely missing.
  435. # [16:36] <ondras> yeah, those are nice
  436. # [16:36] <zewt> iirc it was missing record/playback last time i used it
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  459. # [17:46] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  467. # [18:06] <JonathanNeal> Anyone here at Event Apart San Diego?
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  503. # [19:43] <Hixie_> what is @@unscopables?
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  506. # [19:45] <Ms2ger> I think the thing to make names not show up in the weird event listener scope pollution thingy
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  508. # [19:45] <miketaylr> or in with statements?
  509. # [19:46] <Ms2ger> Go and wash your mouth with soap
  510. # [19:46] <Hixie_> oh hey a Ms2ger
  511. # [19:46] <Hixie_> did you get my mail the other day?
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  513. # [19:46] <Hixie_> i dunno if i have your right address
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  516. # [19:47] <Ms2ger> Yeah, I got it
  517. # [19:47] <Ms2ger> The reason I didn't reply yet is the answer to your question: lack of time :/
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  521. # [19:52] * MikeSmit1 ponders what novel mileage the wags might be able to get out of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-commits/2014May/0009.html
  522. # [19:52] * MikeSmit1 is now known as MikeSmith
  523. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> "maybe we need a spec that defines 'super well-formed'"
  524. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> extra well-formed, exceptionally well-formed, etc
  525. # [19:54] <MikeSmith> pathologically well-formed?
  526. # [19:54] <Domenic> what ... what is that...
  527. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> I think the polyglot document has now reached the point where it's become sentient but also insane and is now trolling itself
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  534. # [20:03] <Hixie_> anyone around who can review the current createImageBitmap() spec's use of Promises and tell me how to update it to the most recent Promises spec?
  535. # [20:04] <Hixie_> it was written back when Promises were in DOM
  536. # [20:05] <Domenic> Hixie_: sure
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  539. # [20:13] <Domenic> Hixie_: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25662
  540. # [20:15] <Hixie_> you rock, thanks!
  541. # [20:16] <Domenic> Yay ^_^. Going to lunch, but lmk if anything's unclear.
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  600. # [22:10] <zewt> new URL("foo://bar.com/").host is ""? grr
  601. # [22:10] <zewt> (in Chrome, at least)
  602. # [22:10] <annevk> Hixie_: see ES6 for @@unscopables
  603. # [22:10] <annevk> Hixie_: it's a way to hide things from the with statement, and should work for event listeners too
  604. # [22:12] <zewt> sounds like a shitty group of superheroes
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  646. # [23:45] <Domenic> oh dear, I thought navigator.onLine got renamed to navigator.online...
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  651. # Session Close: Tue May 13 00:00:00 2014

The end :)