/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-05-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 13 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:07] <Hixie_> annevk: that sounds very confusing
  9. # [00:07] <Hixie_> annevk: having things sometimes work and other times not even though similar things work in different cases
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  128. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> Hixie_: fwiw I'm still getting the lots-of-408s problem in Chrome dev
  129. # [04:40] <MikeSmith> or actually Chromium in my case, built from latest trunk
  130. # [04:42] <MikeSmith> also btw for some time now I been noticing that when I switch to a tab I had in the background with a document in iti, the contents of the tab are blank
  131. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> and I have to manually refresh to get the contents to display again
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  134. # [04:45] <MikeSmith> not always be often. and even when I don't have to manually refresh and the contents get rendered without me doing that, there's a long lag before they actually get re-rendered on their own
  135. # [04:45] <MikeSmith> as if it's just completely re-loading the whole document again its own
  136. # [04:46] <SamB> MikeSmith: hmm, how long do you wait for the tab to re-draw?
  137. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> SamB: 10 seconds or something
  138. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> in some cases, forever
  139. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> some never redraws on its own
  140. # [04:47] <SamB> I've seen similar stuff, but I think it's actually waiting for the tab's pixmap to come back from the pagefile or something
  141. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> SamB: ok
  142. # [04:47] <zewt> pagefile? who has swap in 2014
  143. # [04:48] <SamB> that was in my case, I'm not saying that he's got the same issue
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  145. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> I been thinking maybe it's some problem in my build environment
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  147. # [04:58] <zewt> dear firefox: clicking "check for updates" != "download the update without asking"
  148. # [04:59] <SamB> there was a recent update?
  149. # [04:59] <zewt> and now it updated without asking permission, and everything is fucking broken
  150. # [04:59] <zewt> i wish chrome had usable vertical tabs, i'd probably drop firefox entirely
  151. # [04:59] <zewt> ugh
  152. # [04:59] <zewt> completely broke my extensions and it's way too late to figure out why
  153. # [05:00] <zewt> from the looks of the mostly-broken ui, it looks like they're trying to make firefox look... like chrome
  154. # [05:01] <zewt> i guess they added a button that's a copy-paste of the menu button in chrome, except it's a terrible grid of icons instead of a real menu
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  156. # [05:02] <caitp> there's always ESR firefox :p
  157. # [05:03] <zewt> this makes me want to just uninstall it and be done with it, but chrome isn't really usable either
  158. # [05:03] <caitp> well, maybe not "always", eventually ESR will include post-FF29
  159. # [05:04] <caitp> well I guess that leaves konqueror or IE or safari or one of the others then
  160. # [05:04] <caitp> netsurf!
  161. # [05:04] <zewt> looks like the tab styles changed, the address bar frame is taller, something broke my hack to put the restore/maximize/close windows buttons on the same row as the address bar, there's an extra useless menu button ... lots of garbage to fix tomorrow
  162. # [05:05] <zewt> feels like a bunch of upper management going "we can't think of anything useful or beneficial to change, but we have to change something, so here's a list of nonsensical crap to do"
  163. # [05:06] <zewt> which is a point that every large project seems to hit periodically in its lifecycle
  164. # [05:06] <caitp> well, you know what they say, you can't make everyone happy
  165. # [05:07] <zewt> no, it's the "everything is fine, but if we don't keep changing things it'll look like we're not doing our jobs, so change things anyway"
  166. # [05:08] <zewt> at least, that's what it looks like to someone whose browser just totally shat itself after an un-asked-for update at 10 PM who now gets to spend hours tomorrow unscrewing everything
  167. # [05:08] <caitp> I thought the solution to that was being very vocal in reports to middle management and team meetings to give the appearance of knowing what you're talking about and having a finger on the pulse of the product
  168. # [05:09] <zewt> i tend to think that if a product has a pulse, it's been seriously overengineered
  169. # [05:09] <zewt> and nobody would ever argue that firefox isn't overengineered...
  170. # [05:12] <caitp> the way things are, it's probably pretty difficult to write a browser which works on multiple platforms, including mobile platforms, and deals with all of the craziness of html/xml/css/js/everything else, without being "overengineered", it's hard to solve all of those problems in a simple way :(
  171. # [05:12] <zewt> chrome/webkit is *way* less overengineered than firefox
  172. # [05:12] <caitp> and then the underlying target platforms evolve as time goes by
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  176. # [05:18] <zewt> well, tabs opened in chrome to see if it's bearable, but now i have 8 chrome windows, since i can fit maybe 1/4 as many tabs per window in chrome...
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  221. # [07:49] <annevk> Hixie_: the idea is that you shouldn't rely on scoping of with or event handlers
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  230. # [08:06] <SteveF> hixie: correction re http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/help-whatwg.org/2014-May/003918.html you wrote "and in some accessibility tools that haven't yet been
  231. # [08:06] <SteveF> updated to match the HTML spec" No accessibility tools or browsers have implemented the acc layer aspect of outline algo.
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  234. # [08:11] <SteveF> hixie: and you are now advising: "my recommendation is to use <h2>-<h6> with <section>" which is what the W3C HTML spec advises
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  253. # [08:41] <IZh> Where is Ben?
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  264. # [09:09] <MikeSmith> IZh: Ben who?
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  266. # [09:10] <IZh> MikeSmith: Ben Schwarz.
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  273. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> benschwarz: ↑
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  289. # [09:58] <zcorpan> foolip: flip pass condition in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/1499 ?
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  307. # [10:28] <foolip> zcorpan: um, yes, it's a star in my inbox
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  313. # [10:39] <foolip> zcorpan: updated https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/1499
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  315. # [10:41] <zcorpan> foolip: reviewed
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  318. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/Formation_media/status/466126996767256576
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  320. # [10:50] <foolip> zcorpan: feedback on https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/970#issuecomment-42585194 and my comment requested
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  334. # [11:18] <zcorpan> hmm. do browsers not prompt to unload for nested browsing contexts?
  335. # [11:21] <jgraham> Not sure
  336. # [11:31] * Ms2ger grumbles
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  340. # [11:32] <Ms2ger> "Start and end tag tokens have a tag name, a self-closing flag, and a list of attributes, each of which has a name and a value."
  341. # [11:33] <Ms2ger> "When the steps below require the user agent to adjust foreign attributes for a token, then, if any of the attributes on the token match the strings given in the first column of the following table, let the attribute be a namespaced attribute, with the prefix..."
  342. # [11:33] <Ms2ger> You didn't say anything about namespaced attributes!
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  350. # [11:49] <zcorpan> annevk: is there a different component for the w3c xhr spec?
  351. # [11:50] <annevk> zcorpan: why are you asking me?
  352. # [11:50] <zcorpan> annevk: because maybe you know, and i don't see hallvord around
  353. # [11:50] <annevk> zcorpan: I've no idea
  354. # [11:50] <zcorpan> ok thx
  355. # [11:52] <zcorpan> ok if i reopen and reassign to hallvord?
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  357. # [11:53] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: can you create a new component for w3c xhr fork?
  358. # [11:53] <annevk> I'd rather you don't do that
  359. # [11:54] <annevk> That muddles the public record of the XHR spec even more
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  416. # [13:59] <MikeSmith> what should we don instead?
  417. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> is hte source of the w3c one in github?
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  421. # [14:03] <MikeSmith> if the w3c XHR spec is still claiming just to be a snapshot of the whatwg content then it seems like they just need to merge annevk's latest upstream changes
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  427. # [14:09] <annevk> MikeSmith: there's a weird fork now because they tried to make a stable v1 again
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  429. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> annevk: yeah I read Hallvord's comment about it
  430. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> oh now about the stable v1 thing though
  431. # [14:13] <MikeSmith> ah
  432. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> yeah this is coming back to me now
  433. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> we don't need as stable v1
  434. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> I forget who's claiming we need one
  435. # [14:14] <MikeSmith> annevk: Microsoft?
  436. # [14:15] <annevk> no idea
  437. # [14:15] <jgraham> I was in the room
  438. # [14:15] <jgraham> and I have forgotten too
  439. # [14:15] <jgraham> I think "everyone" agreed it would be "easy" and so there was no problem with making one
  440. # [14:16] <Ms2ger> All we need is half a dozen editors
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  442. # [14:19] <annevk> jgraham: so "list consensus" is "room consensus"?
  443. # [14:19] * annevk just ran into https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/974
  444. # [14:21] <annevk> "I…confess to a strong bias against the fashion for reusable code. To me, 're-editable code' is much, much better…" - Donald Knuth
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  448. # [14:33] <jgraham> annevk: I am very confused by that PR and hope you will sort it all out
  449. # [14:34] <annevk> jgraham: I think hallvors need to come up with some pointers
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  459. # [14:53] <odinho> I normally review xhr tests, I stayed well clear of that one :P
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  484. # [16:07] <benschwarz> annevk: if you're here when iZh is, tell him to email me?
  485. # [16:07] <benschwarz> he's been trying to catch me for a week straight, but our timezones are clearly bulllllshit
  486. # [16:07] <annevk> benschwarz: ok
  487. # [16:08] <benschwarz> annevk: thanks for being my bot :-)
  488. # [16:11] <TabAtkins> benschwarz: Sorry, I keep telling iZH to stop being a jerk and just either email or announce his questions in the chat, but he refuses.
  489. # [16:11] <TabAtkins> Very frustrating.
  490. # [16:12] <Ms2ger> There's no need to call anyone a jerk
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  492. # [16:13] <TabAtkins> When multiple people have repeatedly asked someone to respect a common etiquette guideline, and they refuse...
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  499. # [16:32] <estellevw> The list attribute is supported on <input type="range">. How is the browser supposed to handle a drop down menu on a slider widget? Is there someplace where this is explained in the spec. As far as I can tell, no browser supports this, but I don't know what I should be looking for since it makes little sense to me.
  500. # [16:33] <estellevw> I did find this example http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/forms.html#range-state-(type=range) that uses it in the w3 spec, but implementing that does nothing
  501. # [16:33] <Ms2ger> Oh dear
  502. # [16:33] <Ms2ger> Why would you be looking at that ancient thing?
  503. # [16:34] <estellevw> that was the only place I found an example of what is stated as support in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-input-element.html
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  508. # [16:49] <estellevw> Does anyone know?
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  511. # [16:57] <zewt> fascinated at how websocket is painfully complex because it layers on top of http so it can transparently work through http routers, and ... doesn't work through http routers, so it's just grossly complex for the fun of it
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  514. # [17:01] <zcorpan_> jgraham: how do i trickle the response in a .py file handler?
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  517. # [17:03] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Either directly by using time.sleep, or in a slightly cumbersome way by importing the pipes file. I think there's an example of the latter somewhere
  518. # [17:03] <zcorpan_> http://wptserve.readthedocs.org/en/latest/response.html second example?
  519. # [17:04] <jgraham> Yep
  520. # [17:05] <zcorpan_> thx
  521. # [17:06] <jgraham> eventsource/resources/cors.py has an example of using a pipe inside a .py file
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  542. # [17:37] <JonathanNeal> Good morning anyone in SD. Anyone at Event Apart?
  543. # [17:38] * Joseph_Silber is now known as everyone
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  560. # [18:07] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  573. # [18:36] <rillian> has the DataCue proposal been discussed on the list? I can't find it in the archives.
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  577. # [18:39] <Hixie_> rillian: it was an HTMLWG invention, I don't think it was ever discussed on the WHATWG list. It was discussed on the blink-dev list where I explained why I thought it didn't make much sense as written.
  578. # [18:40] * astearns_ is now known as astearns
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  580. # [18:42] <rillian> Hixie_: ok, thanks. I found that discussion.
  581. # [18:43] <rillian> I pretty much agreed with you, fwiw
  582. # [18:44] <rillian> an in band text track is an interesting alternative to the metadata object I tried to get support for a couple of years ago
  583. # [18:44] <Hixie_> i think the underlying use case for datacue makes a lot of sense. exposing the text tracks that are in all these files, etc.
  584. # [18:44] <rillian> but DataCue as written is a weird half-solution
  585. # [18:44] <Hixie_> but yeah, as written it doesn't really make sense
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  587. # [18:46] <rillian> I don't actually understand the motivation there. It's like they don't expect user agents to actually parse out the data they want, so they want a fallback for their polyfill...and then to make that fallback the default behaviour?
  588. # [18:46] <rillian> is the data they actually care about secret somehow? Too much work to spec a parser for?
  589. # [18:49] <Hixie_> beats me
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  591. # [18:49] <Hixie_> i don't understand how a parser could fill in the DataCue data structure without parsing the format in the first place
  592. # [18:49] <Hixie_> and if it has parsed it, why not expose more?
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  594. # [18:49] <rillian> as I understand it, the parser is supposed to stop at the demuxer level
  595. # [18:49] <rillian> so it returns unparsed data items from the specific track
  596. # [18:49] <Hixie_> the right solution imho is to do the same as WebVTT does: provide an API for the format you parse
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  598. # [18:49] <rillian> so you get native-code overhead levels when dealing with the video datarate, and it pops out stuff for a js-level parse to consume at texttrack data rates.
  599. # [18:49] <rillian> Hixie_: I agree
  600. # [18:50] <rillian> or figurate out some way to mark the origin and spec how to create VTTCues from it
  601. # [18:51] <rillian> *figure
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  712. # [22:07] <Hixie_> Domenic: the exceptions i'm talking about aren't exceptions any author should ever see
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  716. # [22:08] <Hixie_> Domenic: i presume that you don't think that calling the method that returns a promise with arguments that would cause it to throw TypeError should throw the TypeError in the promise -- this would be equivalent, just more elaborate type checks
  717. # [22:08] <Domenic> Hixie_: JS doesn't really have any distinction between different kinds of exceptions, apart from compile-time errors vs. runtime errors.
  718. # [22:08] <Hixie_> sure, but APIs do. Humans do.
  719. # [22:08] <Domenic> Hixie_: no, that is exactly how promise-returning methods behave; argument validation errors become rejected promises.
  720. # [22:08] <Hixie_> o_O
  721. # [22:08] <Hixie_> wow
  722. # [22:08] <Hixie_> really?
  723. # [22:08] <Domenic> Indeed.
  724. # [22:08] <Hixie_> that seems... absurd
  725. # [22:08] <Domenic> It's an async function, so it uses the async channel for all its non-compile-time errors.
  726. # [22:09] <Domenic> That's why I said WebIDL will fix this for you
  727. # [22:09] <Hixie_> that's really really bad for authors.
  728. # [22:09] <Domenic> If your function is promise-returning, WebIDL will ensure any sync-thrown exceptions get turned into rejected promises, including e.g. ones from the overload resolution algorithm.
  729. # [22:09] <Hixie_> it means that when i make a typo, i now get it reported in some unrelated part of my code instead of right where the error occurs.
  730. # [22:09] <Domenic> No, you get it reported right where the error occurs...
  731. # [22:10] <Domenic> It's just like sync errors, you just use a different mechanism for catching them (or not)
  732. # [22:10] <caitp> people seem to like it, and for some reason invite me to speak at conferences about the aplus/commonjs version of promises, so authors seem to enjoy it
  733. # [22:10] <Hixie_> var promise = foo.someAPI(someBogusArgument);
  734. # [22:10] <Domenic> the stack trace still points to the location at which the error was thrown
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  736. # [22:10] <Hixie_> where's the debugger going to break?
  737. # [22:10] <Domenic> if there's no catch for that promise, the debugger breaks on that line
  738. # [22:10] <Domenic> assuming you have "break on uncaught exceptions" turned on.
  739. # [22:10] <Hixie_> how?
  740. # [22:11] <Domenic> I mean, I can show you the Chrome patch, if that helps?
  741. # [22:11] <Hixie_> i mean, i haven't decided what i'm going to do with the promise yet
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  743. # [22:11] <Hixie_> maybe i will set a handler for catching problems two years from now in a setTimeout callback
  744. # [22:11] <Domenic> yeah, in that case, it's just like if you catch the error further up the stack: the debugger is giving you false positive
  745. # [22:11] <Domenic> the debugger does this already for sync errors
  746. # [22:12] <Domenic> so correction: it's more like "break on all exceptions" than "break on uncaught exceptions"
  747. # [22:12] <Hixie_> wait so the debugger is actually breaking _before_ the promise's rejection is handled?
  748. # [22:12] <Hixie_> so this is much more like a language feature than something built on the language
  749. # [22:12] <Domenic> indeed
  750. # [22:13] <Domenic> it's getting syntax in ES7
  751. # [22:13] <Hixie_> how do we "explain" that?
  752. # [22:13] <Domenic> well, first there were Turing machines...
  753. # [22:13] <Hixie_> so there's no way for me to implement my own promise-like thing that has this "stop the debugger on some random other line" behaviour?
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  755. # [22:14] <Domenic> I mean, in general there is no way to implement your own debugger without C++
  756. # [22:14] <Domenic> the debugger is a privileged API
  757. # [22:14] <Domenic> part of the browser UX, etc.
  758. # [22:14] <Hixie_> sure but previously i could throw an exception
  759. # [22:14] <Hixie_> or do a callback
  760. # [22:14] <Domenic> we don't attempt to explain browser UX generally
  761. # [22:15] <Hixie_> but this is like some weird hybrid
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  765. # [22:16] <Hixie_> this is weird
  766. # [22:16] <Hixie_> so as a JS author, i can write a function that can throw or return a promise
  767. # [22:16] <Hixie_> but as a spec author i can't?
  768. # [22:16] <Domenic> yeah, we try to provide spec authors tools to write best-practice functions
  769. # [22:16] <Domenic> I mean you can always use prose
  770. # [22:17] <Hixie_> i'm very skeptical about this being best practice
  771. # [22:17] <Hixie_> TypeError being a run-time thing rather than compile-time thing is bad enough, but now it's not even run-time, it's barely even an error
  772. # [22:17] <SamB> Domenic: what *is* the best practice?
  773. # [22:18] <Domenic> SamB: async functions signal errors through promises; sync functions signal them through exceptions.
  774. # [22:18] <Hixie_> just some random notification you get on a callback in a different task
  775. # [22:18] <SamB> errors should be signalled when found, no?
  776. # [22:18] <Domenic> SamB: indeed, although signalled through the appropriate channel for the type of programming the user is engaging in.
  777. # [22:19] <Hixie_> putting logic errors into the same bucket as unexpected errors imposed from the outside world seems like a huge mistake.
  778. # [22:19] <SamB> yeah
  779. # [22:19] <Domenic> This is just how JS works
  780. # [22:19] <Domenic> There is no separation between "logic errors" and "typo errors"
  781. # [22:19] <Domenic> err, "logic errors" and "outside world errors"
  782. # [22:19] <Hixie_> i should be able to hand a promise to someone else safe in the knowledge that it's not going to notify the other person that i failed to give the right arguments
  783. # [22:19] <Domenic> trying to use the exception vs. callback channels to signal that is no good
  784. # [22:19] <SamB> Domenic: well, if the error is "your arguments didn't make any sense" you don't need to find out about it asynchronously or never ...
  785. # [22:20] <Domenic> Hixie_: why? That's not true for a synchronous function
  786. # [22:20] <Hixie_> Domenic: sure it is
  787. # [22:20] <Domenic> Hixie_: handing someone a promise is like handing someone a function, essentially
  788. # [22:20] <caitp> if your arguments don't make sense, presumably the function you called which returns a promise will throw before giving you a promise
  789. # [22:20] <SamB> Domenic: nooo it isn't
  790. # [22:20] <Domenic> Hixie_: someoneElse(function () { JSON.parse("{forgotMy: 'quotes' }"); })
  791. # [22:20] <SamB> Domenic: it's like handing them the return value of a function
  792. # [22:20] <Domenic> caitp: no, it won't, it will return a rejected promise
  793. # [22:20] <Hixie_> Domenic: right now, if you pass me a "success" callback and a "failure" callback, and there's some logic error in my code, i'm not going to call failure, i'm going to throw to the caller.
  794. # [22:21] <Domenic> SamB: that's not true, because promises represent async operations, as well as representing async values.
  795. # [22:21] <caitp> Domenic: it might return a rejected promise, but it doesn't have to
  796. # [22:21] <Hixie_> caitp: Domenic is saying that it'll return a promise that gets rejected with the exception that would have been thrown.
  797. # [22:21] <Domenic> caitp: it does, if it's using WebIDL
  798. # [22:21] <caitp> you mean for a native DOM method which returns a promise
  799. # [22:22] <SamB> ... maybe we should see what Twisted does?
  800. # [22:22] <caitp> because for anyone outside of browser/dom-land, there is no such guarantee
  801. # [22:22] <zewt> twisted is probably the python api that i hate the most
  802. # [22:22] <SamB> hmm.
  803. # [22:22] <Domenic> caitp: sure, unless those people are using `async function` from ES7 & transpiler friends. Those also give that guarantee.
  804. # [22:22] <SamB> zewt: what do you prefer?
  805. # [22:22] <zewt> takes one of the cleanest languages/platforms out there and makes it incomprehensible and complex
  806. # [22:23] <caitp> does traceur already try to transpile from ES7? :p
  807. # [22:23] <Domenic> caitp: yes
  808. # [22:23] <zewt> i just use python, never found a need for anything like twisted
  809. # [22:23] <caitp> i'm shocked, i'm stunned
  810. # [22:23] <Hixie_> the claim that there's no difference between logic errors and unexpected error conditions is just wrong, IMHO. Sure, there's no difference at the level of "instanceof", but there is _absolutely_ a difference for programmers.
  811. # [22:23] * SamB wonders if he should point out what happens when you type Ctrl-C while CPython is just warming up ...
  812. # [22:24] <Domenic> Hixie_: I agree, but I don't think they should be signaled through completely different channels, where one breaks your program flow and the other is caught.
  813. # [22:24] <Domenic> Hixie_: I think it should be signaled through better error type information, so you can do discriminatory catches
  814. # [22:24] <Hixie_> the logic error one should _absolutely_ break your program flow.
  815. # [22:24] <SamB> Domenic: but that's basically what programmers WANT to happen
  816. # [22:24] <Hixie_> it _should_ be a compile-time error.
  817. # [22:24] <Domenic> SamB: that is false
  818. # [22:24] <SamB> because the program is broken anyway
  819. # [22:24] <Hixie_> it _should_ be caught before you even close the IDE
  820. # [22:24] <Domenic> Hixie_: it should not break your control flow; that prevents you from writing resilient components that don't affect the result of the system
  821. # [22:25] <Domenic> SamB: the program is not broken
  822. # [22:25] <Hixie_> it should break ASAP, and as hard as possible.
  823. # [22:25] <Domenic> SamB: at this very moment at work I am working on a page which is not broken, but only a tiny part of it is, because of this property
  824. # [22:25] <Hixie_> so that it is caught and fixed ASAP.
  825. # [22:25] <SamB> Domenic: if you want resiliance, you must catch stuff, as always
  826. # [22:25] <SamB> obviously logging it somewhere
  827. # [22:25] * Quits: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  828. # [22:25] <Domenic> SamB: exactly! And for async methods you catch stuff using `.catch()`
  829. # [22:25] <Hixie_> i don't even think "type error" from arguments being wrong should be catchable. like i said, it _should_ be a compile-time error, IMHO.
  830. # [22:26] <Domenic> Hixie_: http://esdiscuss.org/topic/try-catch-conditional-exceptions-in-light-of-generators
  831. # [22:26] <SamB> Hixie_: catching it might actually help get errors somewhere useful in some systems though
  832. # [22:26] <Hixie_> SamB: i think it should fire onerror, for that kind of thing
  833. # [22:26] <Domenic> Yeah, since we don't have a compiler to check all this code ahead of time, it's really useful to be able to handle the errors dynamically.
  834. # [22:27] <Domenic> Build isolated systems that can contain any errors within that part of the system
  835. # [22:27] <Domenic> And so on
  836. # [22:27] <Hixie_> man, JS just becomes less and less a language that i want to use
  837. # [22:27] <Domenic> Hixie_: I am a fan of http://esdiscuss.org/topic/try-catch-conditional-exceptions-in-light-of-generators#content-10
  838. # [22:28] <SamB> Hixie_: you could make up your own __attribute__ ;-P
  839. # [22:28] * SamB mumbles something about caja
  840. # [22:28] <Hixie_> Domenic: yeah, something liek that is similar to the "unique IDs per spec throw point" idea we were throwing around recently
  841. # [22:29] <Hixie_> but fundamentally, the problem with that entire page is that the premise is wrong
  842. # [22:29] <Hixie_> the "return res" thing should fail to compile.
  843. # [22:29] <Hixie_> imho.
  844. # [22:29] <Hixie_> (i understand doing that in js is non-trivial, though really 'use strict' should have been a time to do it if we ever were going to fix this once and for all)
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  846. # [22:30] <SamB> Hixie_: you're saying generators shouldn't ever be allowed to return? I agree.
  847. # [22:31] <SamB> lets see what happens in Python ...
  848. # [22:31] <Hixie_> no i'm saying that the typo should be caught by the compiler.
  849. # [22:31] <SamB> wait, how would that happen?
  850. # [22:31] <Hixie_> there's no variable called "res" in scope.
  851. # [22:31] <Domenic> Yeah, that kind of error stems from the global object being in scope
  852. # [22:31] <Hixie_> in sensible languages, that's catchable at compile-time.
  853. # [22:31] <SamB> (how do you know what's in scope?)
  854. # [22:32] <Hixie_> well like i said, in JS this is non-trivial.
  855. # [22:32] <Domenic> There was hope that in ES6 modules the global object would not be in scope, so you could add this kind of static checking
  856. # [22:32] <SamB> Python and JavaScript are not sensible in that way :-(
  857. # [22:32] <Hixie_> but that's the main problem with JS, IMHO.
  858. # [22:32] <Domenic> But unfortunately it was deemed to WATish to remove the global object from the scope
  859. # [22:32] <Domenic> and so we lost compile-time checking of all bindings :(
  860. # [22:32] <SamB> though I guess in Python there isn't exactly an object that is the global scope?
  861. # [22:32] <Hixie_> the vast majority of my errors in JS are things like passing the wrong number or types of arguments. The idea that this is going to be even less quickly catchable is really not pleasing to me.
  862. # [22:33] <Ms2ger> "Most untrusted events SHOULD NOT trigger default actions, with the exception of click or DOMActivate events."
  863. # [22:33] <Ms2ger> Ah, D3E
  864. # [22:33] <SamB> Hixie_: yeah, that's my problem with it too
  865. # [22:33] <SamB> I have enough trouble debugging people's pages for them when I get to *see* the exceptions they don't catch ...
  866. # [22:33] <SamB> (or for me)
  867. # [22:34] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  868. # [22:34] <estellevw> I didn
  869. # [22:34] <estellevw> t get an answer this morning so I
  870. # [22:34] <estellevw> ll try again
  871. # [22:34] <estellevw> The list attribute is supported on <input type="range">. How is the browser supposed to handle a drop down menu on a slider widget? Is there someplace where this is explained in the spec. As far as I can tell, no browser supports this, but I don't know what I should be looking for since it makes little sense to me.
  872. # [22:34] <Domenic> estellevw: I imagine that's up to the browser implementers.
  873. # [22:35] <Domenic> estellevw: so if nobody's implemented it yet, then probably nobody has any idea, and whoever gets there first gets to decide.
  874. # [22:35] <estellevw> if you have a slider UI, how can you implement a drop down list?
  875. # [22:35] <SamB> estellevw: probably never anything
  876. # [22:35] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  877. # [22:35] <SamB> it might just be an oversimplification in the content model?
  878. # [22:35] <SamB> or maybe for when you mutate an input
  879. # [22:36] <Hixie_> estellevw: it wouldn't be a drop-down widget, it'd be tick marks
  880. # [22:36] <estellevw> it makes sense if range is not supported.
  881. # [22:36] <Domenic> estellevw: for example it might be a set of snap points
  882. # [22:36] <Hixie_> estellevw: there's examples in the spec, see the type=range section
  883. # [22:36] <SamB> hmm, tick marks
  884. # [22:36] <estellevw> i see the tick marks,
  885. # [22:36] <SamB> <- ignore this idiot
  886. # [22:36] <estellevw> that makes sense
  887. # [22:36] <zewt> you can't return (with a value) from a python generator
  888. # [22:36] <Domenic> second example at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/states-of-the-type-attribute.html#range-state-%28type=range%29
  889. # [22:37] <estellevw> now that I understand it, i'll retest
  890. # [22:37] <estellevw> thanks
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  929. # [23:09] <caitp> Hixie_, the thing which is insane is how as you said, combinations of settings can have different, but related meanings --- so you can't just handle each flag independenly, you also have to look at potential combinations of different flags, and currently there are currently (in stable Chrome, I'm not looking at the spec right now to see if it's changed), like 10 flags, so if have 10 things to handle independently, and
  930. # [23:09] <caitp> then if you have like 10^2 for combinations of 2, 10^3 for combinations of 3, etc.. you have a whole pile of possibilities to handle, because the information is not conveyed in a very good way
  931. # [23:10] <Hixie_> what's the altnative? a single attributes with n^m possible values?
  932. # [23:10] * Hixie_ is now known as Hixie
  933. # [23:10] <caitp> so before html5 constraint validation came along, the validation handling in Angular could be a lot simpler, but now it becomes ridiculously complicated
  934. # [23:11] <Hixie> why would it be any different?
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  938. # [23:13] <caitp> previously for instance, we could just look at an inputs value and test it against a regular expression to decide if it's a valid number, now the browser does that for us and doesn't expose a value to us if it's wrong, and it makes it more complicated to figure out what the issue is and report the correct information to the user
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  941. # [23:13] <Hixie> so before you could determine if the value was bad input or not by using a regular expression, whereas now that is exposed to you in a single boolean, and the single boolean is more complicated?
  942. # [23:14] <Hixie> i really don't follow
  943. # [23:14] <caitp> the boolean is more complicated, because it means different things depending on the state of different flags
  944. # [23:14] <caitp> this means that we aren't actually shrinking the codebase, we have to grow the codebase to accomodate the crazy constraint validation story which prevents us from doing it the legacy way
  945. # [23:15] <Hixie> badInput _always_ means "the input the user provided is not something i can turn into submittable data"
  946. # [23:15] <Hixie> it never means anything else
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  948. # [23:15] <Hixie> regardless of the other values or attributes
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  950. # [23:16] <caitp> well, unfortunately in our case it's a bit more complicated than that, although hopefully that will be resolved soon (there's a pipeline structure which causes all kinds of grief when combined with html5 constraint validation)
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  952. # [23:16] <Hixie> why do you think the boolean "means different things depending on the state of different flags"? what other things does it mean?
  953. # [23:17] <Domenic> is there context for this discussion? It sounds interesting.
  954. # [23:17] <caitp> if you have valueMissing, you have to care about whether badValue is set or not
  955. # [23:17] <Hixie> Domenic: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25369
  956. # [23:17] <caitp> because if badValue is set, valueMissing is irrelevant
  957. # [23:17] <Hixie> caitp: so just check badInput first?
  958. # [23:17] <Hixie> caitp: how is that different than before?
  959. # [23:18] <Domenic> I have historically had problems with the HTML validation API but I think Hixie fixed them a while ago by adding a method that did something I wanted... I'm fuzzy on the details. Something related to showing the UI without submitting the form, perhaps.
  960. # [23:18] <Hixie> caitp: before, if the regexp didn't match the "has digits" regexp, you had to check if it was blank or not, no?
  961. # [23:18] <caitp> these checks have to happen in a bunch of different places and the end result is that it kind of sucks =( but I think we may be able to work around it for angular, however I imagine it will be a pain for other libraries too
  962. # [23:18] <Hixie> caitp: what i don't understand is why this is worse with the current API than it was before
  963. # [23:18] <caitp> because it grows the code way more than it should need ot
  964. # [23:18] <Hixie> caitp: it seems to be it should be at worst the same, and probably significantly better.
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  966. # [23:19] <caitp> ideally, constraint validation should shrink the codebase
  967. # [23:19] <Hixie> caitp: why does it grow the code? give me concrete examples man.
  968. # [23:19] <caitp> instead of making it more complicated and cumbersome
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  972. # [23:20] <caitp> so, we have to support some legacy browsers without constraint validation (old IE), so we can't really get rid of all of the old stuff. But in addition to the old stuff, we now have to add some tests to make sure they don't do the wrong thing when constraint validation is available
  973. # [23:20] <caitp> and when it is available, we still need to do more tests to handle all of the different states, for each routine responsible for validation
  974. # [23:20] <Hixie> ok if the reason the new API makes things bigger is that you have to support the new API and no API, then _any_ new API will have this problem.
  975. # [23:20] <caitp> well, not necessarily
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  977. # [23:21] <caitp> if we didn't have the "badInput === empty string" thing, then it would be totally invisible to us and we wouldn't have to care
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  979. # [23:22] <Hixie> can you show me the code you have now, and the code as it would look if whatever change you want was in the spec?
  980. # [23:22] <caitp> https://github.com/angular/angular.js/blob/master/src/ng/directive/input.js most of the validation story is in there, although one of the other people is working on a big refactor which will hopefully address the issues with it
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  984. # [23:26] <Hixie> caitp: but what would change, specifically?
  985. # [23:26] <caitp> well, there are a few things in there that are just plain wrong right now, but lets see
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  988. # [23:30] <Domenic> curious, does this have actual implementations http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/aural.html ?
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  991. # [23:31] <caitp> well, the code is pretty wrong right now hixie, right now the number validator does the right thing, but the required validator needs to know to ignore if badInput is set
  992. # [23:32] <caitp> someone should make that change, will do it later. but I still think that valueMissing should really only mean "the user didn't type anything", and should not be affected by badInput
  993. # [23:32] <Hixie> Domenic: some obscure Emacs mode i think vaguely tries to implement it, and Opera once had an implementaton of some sort, but basically, no.
  994. # [23:33] <Domenic> Hixie: sounds about what I expected. 2 independent implementations, but not really.
  995. # [23:33] <Hixie> caitp: valueMissing has little to do with what the user entered. The "value" in "valueMissing" is the .value attribute.
  996. # [23:33] <Hixie> Domenic: certainly not enough to pass any test suite barrier
  997. # [23:33] <caitp> the argument that I've been making on that thread, is that it really should be related to what the user enters
  998. # [23:33] <Hixie> caitp: it's saying "this form can't be submitted because this control says it's "required" but i don't have something to submit"
  999. # [23:34] <Hixie> caitp: well we could talk about a new attribute that has more to do with what the user entered, but what's the use case?
  1000. # [23:34] <caitp> the form will have another reason not to submit in that case, though, will it not?
  1001. # [23:34] <Hixie> caitp: like what?
  1002. # [23:34] <caitp> like suffering from bad input
  1003. # [23:35] <caitp> if required is true and you enter a bad value and try to submit, Chrome will tell you that your value is broken, not that you forgot to enter a value for a required field
  1004. # [23:35] <caitp> this is the sensible use case
  1005. # [23:35] <caitp> like, it just kind of intuitively makes sense to humans
  1006. # [23:35] <caitp> you don't want to type "moo" into a number input and be told "*age is a required field", because psychologically that just doesn't click
  1007. # [23:38] <Hixie> sure. that's why you check badInput before valueMissing when reporting things.
  1008. # [23:38] <Hixie> That's not n*m complexity
  1009. # [23:38] <Hixie> that's just n complexity
  1010. # [23:38] <Hixie> it's just that you have to check them in order.
  1011. # [23:38] <Hixie> similarly, you check badInput before patternMismatch
  1012. # [23:38] <caitp> right, but if my validator is only responsible for verifying that you've entered a value, why should I even have to care if you've entered a bad value? I should only care that you've entered a value at all
  1013. # [23:40] <caitp> it should not even be concerned with the badInput flag, ideally
  1014. # [23:40] <caitp> that's all i've been saying in that bug
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  1016. # [23:41] <caitp> it's a separation of concerns issue, you could say
  1017. # [23:41] <caitp> and an issue of simplification
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  1020. # [23:42] <caitp> anyways, I should probably reply on the bug so that there's a historical record of it, but I don't have time at the moment due
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  1031. # Session Close: Wed May 14 00:00:00 2014

The end :)