/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-05-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 23 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] * Joins: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron)
  4. # [00:01] <Hixie> dglazkov: btw, the conversation here is relevant to your interests
  5. # [00:02] <jorendorff> Hixie: and is it considered pretty much OK to expose a DOM for an SVG document before its dependencies are done loading?
  6. # [00:02] <Ms2ger> Why not?
  7. # [00:02] <jorendorff> maybe some dependencies, but not others?
  8. # [00:02] <jorendorff> i'm askign
  9. # [00:03] <Ms2ger> You also expose the HTML DOM before dependencies load
  10. # [00:03] <jorendorff> ...before the HTML is even done loading
  11. # [00:03] <Ms2ger> Yep
  12. # [00:04] <jorendorff> what i'm asking is kind of, is that a decision we're stuck with rather than a design principle to carry forward
  13. # [00:04] <Hixie> jorendorff: i imagine there are people who'd want it one way, and people who'd want it the other. i plan to support both.
  14. # [00:04] <jsbell> odinho: anyway, lgtm
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  16. # [00:06] <jorendorff> Hixie: ok, so one thing modules do is, you import stuff by name rather than by URL, so import $ from "jquery"; that "jquery" isn't a URL
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  19. # [00:07] <Hixie> jorendorff: fyi, looks like dglazkov actually has a bug on doing this same conversation with the es6 folk, but for integrating web components and es module loading: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25715
  20. # [00:07] <Hixie> jorendorff: how does it map names to urls?
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  22. # [00:08] <jorendorff> depends on the loader. there's a loader.locate() hook that does the mapping. annevk and David Herman were supposed to talk with you and figure out what the default locate() behavior should be in a browser
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  24. # [00:09] <Hixie> ah
  25. # [00:09] <Hixie> (i haven't heard anything)
  26. # [00:10] <jorendorff> that was months ago
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  28. # [00:13] <Hixie> jorendorff: btw the other question i have is about how modules are exposed in HTML -- is there anything different about script block that's a "module" and one that isn't? does it start with module { ... } or something?
  29. # [00:13] <jorendorff> no, modules are a toplevel concept, and you *can't* concatenate them
  30. # [00:14] <jorendorff> what i mean is, a module is a file
  31. # [00:14] <jorendorff> like python
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  33. # [00:14] <Hixie> so it starts with a keyword, like in pascal say? "module foo; ..."?
  34. # [00:14] <jorendorff> the only syntactic difference from a script is that import and export are allowed
  35. # [00:14] <Hixie> ah
  36. # [00:15] <Hixie> how does the browser know to allow import and export then?
  37. # [00:15] <Hixie> or is just everything treated like a module
  38. # [00:15] <jorendorff> http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-modules this sort of thing at least is clear in the es spec
  39. # [00:15] <jorendorff> Hixie: has to be type=module or some similar clue
  40. # [00:15] <Hixie> aah
  41. # [00:16] <Hixie> ok
  42. # [00:16] <Hixie> haven't heard anything about that either
  43. # [00:16] <Hixie> (seems weird, why would it not just be inline?)
  44. # [00:16] <jorendorff> it seems weird to me too.
  45. # [00:17] <jorendorff> web developers concatenate js files, sometimes it's the best part of their day, i would have let them keep that
  46. # [00:17] <jorendorff> eh, what do i know
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  51. # [00:19] <Hixie> seems very odd that you wouldn't be able to concatenate
  52. # [00:19] <Hixie> i mean, it'll just mean people concatenate them into an html import with multiple <script type=mod> or whatever
  53. # [00:21] <jorendorff> some will use Real Tools, and the provided hooks; some will use SPDY; some will use html imports; there was some noise for a while about urls that point to subresources within a bundle
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  55. # [00:23] <Hixie> what's a script that's not a module called?
  56. # [00:23] <Hixie> program?
  57. # [00:24] <jorendorff> yes
  58. # [00:24] <zewt> jorendorff: more like, they'll keep doing it no matter what anyone tels them to do...
  59. # [00:24] <zewt> also, tells
  60. # [00:25] <zewt> (now, if we could get people to stop "minifying"^Wobfuscating scripts...)
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  62. # [00:26] <jorendorff> oh, there's also the 80% of web developers who will just do nothing, and get no pipelining benefit whatsoever, just a lazy async graph walk
  63. # [00:26] <jorendorff> and be happy enough with it
  64. # [00:26] <jorendorff> no one concatenates everything
  65. # [00:27] <zewt> well that's a benefit of @needs on its own, the pipelining is built-in (from the developer's perspective)
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  76. # [00:50] <dglazkov> Hixie: I think we need a brainmelt with dherman to come up with a coherent strategy for all these cool ideas
  77. # [00:51] <dglazkov> my experience from working with dherman is that he's very easy to work with
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  95. # [01:33] <Hixie> annevk: catch me on irc some time soonish to talk about the "cleanup steps" bugs
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  109. # [01:55] <roc> who decided that DOMTokenList.toggle should take a 'force' argument which makes it *not* toggle?
  110. # [01:57] <zewt> Hixie: fyi, the spec is significantly slower to load for me in chrome now; don't know if it's something that changed in chrome or something in the spec
  111. # [01:58] <zewt> now after the loading spinner stops, the page scrolls around over a transparent-grid-looking region when I try to scroll, or the tab freezes hard for a while
  112. # [01:58] <Hixie> zewt: i need to work on perf of loading on that page, but generally speaking, file a bug on chrome
  113. # [01:59] <zewt> roc: looks like it just turns it into a badly-named set(value)
  114. # [01:59] <zewt> which is useful, just confusing with that name
  115. # [02:00] * gsnedders wonders how to start parsing the parser spec…
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  118. # [02:05] <othermaciej> roc: that is really weird
  119. # [02:06] <othermaciej> roc: file a bug / report by email / whatever? it seems like a wonky API design and it seems unlikely it would be needed for compat
  120. # [02:08] <zewt> it's useful, so you can say foo.toggle("x", bool) instead of if(bool) foo.add("x"); else foo.remove("x");
  121. # [02:09] <Hixie> should have been foo.set(x, bool)
  122. # [02:09] <zewt> yep
  123. # [02:09] <zewt> iirc i've added DOMTokenList.prototype.set that does exactly that in the past
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  126. # [02:12] <zewt> can we have a national death to yoda conditionals day or something
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  128. # [02:12] <othermaciej> zewt: I can see how it’s useful, but yeah, it should be a separate function instead of overloading toggle()
  129. # [02:13] <zewt> othermaciej: if it's possible to change it then i'd say yeah, but it's already out there
  130. # [02:14] <zewt> though i'd probably be inclined to still say DOMElementList.prototype.set = DOMElementList.prototype.toggle in my code, to make it clearer
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  132. # [02:18] <othermaciej> looks like we have had it a while
  133. # [02:18] <othermaciej> still very silly for toggle() to have a not-toggle mode
  134. # [02:18] <zewt> we all agree on that :)
  135. # [02:21] <roc> I just don't know where to file the bug
  136. # [02:22] <zewt> i assume dom
  137. # [02:22] <zewt> (anne's dom)
  138. # [02:23] <zewt> but is there really any chance of being able to change this? (and is it worth the effort it would take to find out, and change something that is probably implemented everywhere?)
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  141. # [02:28] <roc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25869
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  158. # [03:25] <gsnedders> "The algorithm for the outline also associates each node in the DOM tree with a particular section and potentially a heading."
  159. # [03:25] <gsnedders> Liar!
  160. # [03:25] <gsnedders> It only associates element nodes!
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  191. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: if you're reading the outline algorithm right now, I wonder if you might check and see what outline the following should produce:
  192. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> <!DOCTYPE html><section><h1>section</h1></section><h1>top-level</h1>
  193. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: because your outliner currently gives:
  194. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> 1. top-level
  195. # [04:08] <MikeSmith> 1. section
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  197. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: but the outliner in the validator gives:
  198. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> 1. [implied heading]
  199. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> 1. section
  200. # [04:09] <gsnedders> My outliner is massively out of date wrt the spec
  201. # [04:09] <MikeSmith> 1. top-level
  202. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: well on that one point I think the spec may have always had it that way and your outliner implemented it wrong
  203. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> but not sure because h5o has it wrong also I think
  204. # [04:11] <gsnedders> h5o?
  205. # [04:11] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: https://code.google.com/p/h5o/
  206. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I'm not positive but I recall vaguely recall that when I checked the spec before, I found that my outliner code conforms to the spec, and also recal that when I asked Hixie he said yeah I had it right
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  209. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> annevk: about html5-tracker, I wonder if you'd have less of a hard time if you hooked it into the git html-mirror repo that foolip set up, rather than having it keep using svn
  210. # [04:26] <MikeSmith> annevk: and no I'm not volunteering
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  215. # [05:03] <gsnedders> Hixie: from the POV of generating code from spec text, it'd be easier if the bogus comment state and the CDATA section state followed the model of everything else instead of magically consuming large chunks…
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  226. # [05:37] <Hixie> gsnedders: yeah, i noticed a few things like that myself
  227. # [05:38] <Hixie> gsnedders: my tokeniser outputs entirely different tokens when it comes to text nodes than the spec claims that it should, too
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  233. # [06:10] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: btw about the thing outline-algorithm thing I mentioned earlier, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20068 is where I discussed it with Hixie last year and I see from that I ended up changing my outliner code to conform to the spec
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  260. # [08:30] <annevk> TabAtkins: oh, I thought you might have some input as to what the platform needs from ES
  261. # [08:36] <TabAtkins> annevk: Ah, Kk. Didn't recognize it as a request for feedback.
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  263. # [08:38] <annevk> TabAtkins: I'm trying to capture some needs from platform and then I hope to find someone to present them to TC39
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  266. # [08:45] <TabAtkins> Yeah, cool. Need to add "some way to legitimately subclass Maps and Sets".
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  270. # [08:54] <annevk> TabAtkins: can you dig up a pointer for additional rationale on that? might not entirely be self-evident
  271. # [08:58] <TabAtkins> Yeah, can do.
  272. # [09:05] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, foolip suggested the same and is not volunteering either
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  277. # [09:15] <annevk> jorendorff: I don't recall I was tasked with talking to Hixie, I'm not even sure I know enough about modules to do so :-)
  278. # [09:15] <annevk> jorendorff: I've been encouraging dherman to file a bug or write an email, not sure why he hasn't done it
  279. # [09:16] <annevk> jorendorff: seems a bit weird to talk about <module> at conferences without it having ever been given as feedback on the spec
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  281. # [09:31] <annevk> foolip: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=664544
  282. # [09:36] <foolip> annevk: thanks
  283. # [09:36] <foolip> annevk: can you post that blink-dev if you think it'd help?
  284. # [09:36] <annevk> foolip: sure, pretty sure I pushed for removal at Opera around that time
  285. # [09:36] <foolip> annevk: btw, you reported the bug that got it removed in core :)
  286. # [09:36] <annevk> heh
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  321. # [11:47] <jgraham> annevk: So are you going to review https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/1619 ?
  322. # [11:50] <annevk> jgraham: looks good, do you want to reference http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-url-parser and http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#the-open%28%29-method maybe?
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  324. # [11:52] <annevk> jgraham: done
  325. # [11:53] <jgraham> annevk: Thanks!
  326. # [11:53] <annevk> jgraham: basically asking me on IRC is the best way to get me to do one of these (provided they're not too big)
  327. # [11:54] <jgraham> annevk: Understood
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  329. # [11:58] <Ms2ger> Aha
  330. # [11:58] * Ms2ger pulls up the list
  331. # [11:59] <jgraham> annevk: Also, schoolboy error saying that with Ms2ger in the channel ;)
  332. # [12:00] <annevk> MikeSmith: foolip: your "use git" idea is interesting, but how does that work with the existing SVN IDs that we use?
  333. # [12:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: foolip: they are in the commit messages, but I don't think there's a way I can invoke git diff and make that work, is there?
  334. # [12:01] <jgraham> annevk: Context?
  335. # [12:02] <annevk> jgraham: I'm trying to figure out if I create a git clone https://github.com/whatwg/html-mirror/ if I can build web-apps-tracker on top
  336. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> annevk: no way that I know of, but I'm not a git expert
  337. # [12:03] * MikeSmith looks through git-svn docs
  338. # [12:05] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure git-svn must maintain a mapping, but if that's using the github stuff I don't know if it's exposed
  339. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> right yeah
  340. # [12:05] <jgraham> (that is, if that mirror is based on github running git-svn rather than you running it)
  341. # [12:06] <annevk> I don't have git-svn on DreamHost
  342. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> annevk: well if you did have git-svn apparently you could get the svn revision number by giving the git has to "git svn find-rev"
  343. # [12:15] <annevk> MikeSmith: how about the other way around?
  344. # [12:15] <annevk> MikeSmith: what I want is, given two svn revisions, get a diff
  345. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> same thing but preface the arg with "r" I think
  346. # [12:16] <annevk> that's hanging the server :-)
  347. # [12:16] <annevk> this does not seem like a cheap command
  348. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> :(
  349. # [12:17] <annevk> I could cache the return values I suppose, but r8000 is still running...
  350. # [12:17] * annevk fetches more tea
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  352. # [12:17] <annevk> "Unable to determine upstream SVN information from HEAD history"
  353. # [12:17] <annevk> well that's great
  354. # [12:19] <jgraham> Uh, this must be doing a linear search of the commits or something
  355. # [12:19] <jgraham> Yeah, I get the same result
  356. # [12:20] <darobin> it's possibly faster to get the information from searching the git log...
  357. # [12:20] <annevk> even for a fairly recent commit it fails hard
  358. # [12:21] <jgraham> git log --grep="git-svn-id: http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps@8000"
  359. # [12:21] <darobin> annevk: git log --grep='http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps@8000'
  360. # [12:21] <darobin> duh
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  362. # [12:21] <darobin> it's pretty instant
  363. # [12:22] <darobin> except it'll fail for numbers < 1000
  364. # [12:22] <jgraham> Add --format=format:%H
  365. # [12:22] <darobin> you have to append a space
  366. # [12:22] <annevk> yes
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  368. # [12:23] <annevk> then parse the return value
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  370. # [12:25] <jgraham> No, just add the --format I suggested
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  372. # [12:26] <annevk> sorry jgraham, missed your suggestion
  373. # [12:26] <annevk> git log --grep="git-svn-id: http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps@{X} " --format=format:%H
  374. # [12:29] <jgraham> Yes
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  376. # [12:30] <annevk> Anyone know enough Bash so we can turn this into a gitsvndiff script?
  377. # [12:30] <annevk> And then I can invoke that from Python and woohoo, tower of hacks
  378. # [12:32] <jgraham> Why not just write it in python?
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  380. # [12:34] <annevk> jgraham: then I'd have to install GitPython or some such; I rather just have something that works with the default DreamHost setup
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  387. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> I'm sure there are people around here who are better at shell scripting than me
  388. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> hint hint
  389. # [12:39] <jgraham> annevk: git_sha1 = subprocess.check_call(["git", "log", "--grep='git-svn-id: http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps%d '" % (svn_id,), "--format=format:%H"])
  390. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> if not I can write a shell script for it
  391. # [12:40] <jgraham> s/check_call/check_output/
  392. # [12:41] <annevk> jgraham: is it better to do that than have all the subprocesses in a single script?
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  394. # [12:42] <jgraham> Oh and I missed an @
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  396. # [12:42] <jgraham> annevk: the overhead of starting a subprocess isn't going to kill you here
  397. # [12:43] <jgraham> I think doing the simplest thing is best, and I'm sure the simplest thing doesn't involve bash
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  399. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> yeah I agree strongly
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  401. # [12:44] <jgraham> (oh and no need for the quotes in the grep argument ofc)
  402. # [12:44] <jgraham> subprocess.check_output(["git", "log", "--grep=git-svn-id: http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps@%s " % (8000,), "--format=format:%H"])
  403. # [12:44] <jgraham> actually runs
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  405. # [12:58] <annevk> jgraham: had to use os.popen() as that command wasn't supported
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  407. # [12:59] <jgraham> annevk: What version of python
  408. # [12:59] <jgraham> ?
  409. # [12:59] <jgraham> Also, I assume you imported subprocess?
  410. # [12:59] <annevk> 2.6.6
  411. # [12:59] <annevk> did
  412. # [12:59] <jgraham> (popen is the wrong choice pretty much always; if you don't have check_process, you should probably use .call())
  413. # [13:00] <annevk> well I guess I'm first going to make this work and then accept pull requests
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  416. # [13:01] <annevk> already 1PM :(
  417. # [13:02] <jgraham> Python 2.6 is about 4 years out of date and 2.6.6 appears to not even be the latest 2.6 release :(
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  420. # [13:07] <annevk> It's clearly a sad day
  421. # [13:10] <odinho> omfg, python 2.6. blast from the past.
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  423. # [13:11] <jgraham> yeah it's so old annevk is actually programming with a beard and flares
  424. # [13:12] <odinho> Sounds like the annevk I know.
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  431. # [13:33] <foolip> annevk: the ids are in the commit message, but it could be worth creating tags to each commit (or something like that) to make it quicker to find a commit by SVN number
  432. # [13:34] <foolip> annevk: is the current web-apps-tracker experiencing problems, other than the ever-growing diff cache?
  433. # [13:34] <annevk> foolip: it's slow and it's a perf problem for Hixie
  434. # [13:34] <annevk> If my git repo is in ./X/
  435. # [13:34] <annevk> How do I run git commands in ./?
  436. # [13:34] <annevk> --exec-path and such don't seem to work as I expect
  437. # [13:35] <foolip> annevk: GIT_DIR probably?
  438. # [13:35] * foolip experiments
  439. # [13:35] <jgraham> annevk: If you are running from a script, you can just set cwd
  440. # [13:35] <jgraham> .call(["git", "whatever"], cwd="./") or something
  441. # [13:35] <jgraham> Er
  442. # [13:36] <jgraham> .call(["git", "whatever"], cwd="./X") or something
  443. # [13:36] <annevk> jgraham: if I want to use .call(), how do I get the output?
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  445. # [13:37] <foolip> annevk: git --git-dir=./opus/.git --work-tree=./opus log also worked for me (opus is your X)
  446. # [13:38] <jgraham> Hmm, so the documentation recommends stdout_data, stderr_data = subprocess.Popen(["git", "foo"], cwd="./X", stdout=subprocess.PIPE).communicate()
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  448. # [13:41] <annevk> foolip: cool
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  456. # [14:00] <foolip> annevk: if you intent do try this out and don't want to generate the refs for svn revision numbers on your end, I could put them in the html-mirror repo itself
  457. # [14:00] <foolip> just let me know
  458. # [14:01] <annevk> foolip: I'll let this channel know whenever I get stuck
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  460. # [14:01] <annevk> mostly just trying to get the tool to do the same thing at the moment
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  471. # [14:28] <jorendorff> annevk: oh, ok, sorry for the mistake (re modules)
  472. # [14:32] <annevk> jorendorff: no worries, happy to help out if that's needed
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  496. # [15:16] <annevk> foolip: I think I got something working that can replace the current setup, the only thing that's needed is some kind of hook that updates all the git stuff once the spec is updated
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  503. # [15:33] <foolip> annevk: I have a thing that updates the git mirror automatically (Hixie added a ping URL to his publish script), would it suffice to have a web hook on the GitHub html-mirror repo?
  504. # [15:34] <foolip> I'm guessing you already have a hook that Hixie pings, but which be racy with my update script
  505. # [15:34] <annevk> foolip: yeah that might work
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  507. # [15:35] <annevk> foolip: need to sort a few things still
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  510. # [15:42] <foolip> annevk: you probably have access to https://github.com/whatwg/html-mirror/settings/hooks/new when you need it
  511. # [15:42] <annevk> foolip: good point
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  513. # [15:46] <jgraham> foolip: Ever tried to take all the commits touching a set of directories /A /B /C in one git repo and add them to a second repo at a different path like /prefix/A' /prefix/B' /prefix/C'? I sort of have the feeling it is possible, perhaps using filter-branch, but I haven't actually tried it
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  516. # [15:46] <foolip> jgraham: yes, I've done that
  517. # [15:47] <foolip> step 1 is to use git filter-branch --subdirectory-filter A/
  518. # [15:48] <annevk> foolip: so basically all I need is a script that does git --git-dir=html-mirror/.git pull
  519. # [15:49] <foolip> jgraham: step 2 depends on what kind of history you want in the final repo, but just fetching the filtered branch from the target repo and merging it with subtree something something might work
  520. # [15:49] <foolip> with extra complexity if you need to keep it in sync and not just do it once
  521. # [15:50] <foolip> annevk: what language would the hook be implemented in?
  522. # [15:51] <foolip> in any event, what I've done is to have a script which creates a batch job to do the real work, as opposed to doing it in web-facing script directly
  523. # [15:52] <jgraham> foolip: Yeah, I think the problem is that I don't want to do it just once, so I have to be certain that the commit ids don't change
  524. # [15:52] <jgraham> and, preferably, avoid doing the work N times.
  525. # [15:52] <jgraham> Well N**2 times
  526. # [15:52] <foolip> jgraham: and it's important to remove everything except the filtered directory, to save space?
  527. # [15:53] <foolip> otherwise you could just merge the original repository and remove the bits you don't want to see
  528. # [15:53] <annevk> foolip: shell
  529. # [15:53] <annevk> foolip: I just want to sync
  530. # [15:53] <jgraham> foolip: Interesting idea
  531. # [15:54] <jgraham> pull in the whole other repo and then add a commit to delete the unwanted parts?
  532. # [15:55] <foolip> jgraham: yeah, or do the whole move+delete dance as part of the merge commit, whichever gives you the prettiest history in your mind
  533. # [15:55] <foolip> annevk: well, maybe try the simple thing first and improve if needed :)
  534. # [15:56] <annevk> Man, my beta version is already so much faster than the current web-apps-tracker setup
  535. # [15:57] <foolip> that's not surprising :)
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  537. # [16:00] <foolip> annevk: if I get hit by a bus and html-mirror stops updating, https://github.com/foolip/html-webhook is the thing that keeps it in sync
  538. # [16:01] <annevk> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker now runs on the new script, no auto-update yet
  539. # [16:01] <annevk> if you view a diff you can use &context to get more context
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  542. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> nice
  543. # [16:12] * MikeSmith tries ?from=1&to=8648
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  547. # [16:28] <annevk> MikeSmith: killed that
  548. # [16:28] <darobin> heh
  549. # [16:31] <MikeSmith> annevk: smart man
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  551. # [16:40] <jgraham> Is that different to just git diff [first sha1].. ?
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  559. # [17:00] <annevk> jgraham: ooh, can I kill the second lookup? I didn't even try!
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  564. # [17:05] <jgraham> annevk: Well in the case it is HEAD, yes
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  566. # [17:06] <annevk> jgraham: it almost never is
  567. # [17:06] <jgraham> So I don't understand what's slow with MikeSmith's query. Is it formatting the diff?
  568. # [17:06] <jgraham> Because getting the diff from git seems to be more or less instant
  569. # [17:09] <annevk> jgraham: oh I killed the feature
  570. # [17:09] <annevk> jgraham: because it was rarely used
  571. # [17:10] <zewt> man, the spec is sort of unusable for me right now, freezes in chrome constantly
  572. # [17:10] <jgraham> annevk: Oh. I guess if I used this at all I would use that
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  575. # [17:12] <annevk> Oh.
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  579. # [17:19] <foolip> annevk: cool, it feels pretty fast now
  580. # [17:19] <foolip> too bad I can no longer use it to check if html-mirror is in sync with svn :)
  581. # [17:19] <foolip> gotta go, have a nice weekend!
  582. # [17:21] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  583. # [17:23] <annevk> Hixie: no longer hammering your SVN setup
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  585. # [17:28] <annevk> If people want to change things around, now you can https://github.com/whatwg/web-apps-tracker
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  599. # [18:11] <annevk> Hixie: as for talking about cleanup, prolly next week somewhere, your Wednesday morning is usually convenient
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  617. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> wat: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014May/0303.html
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  645. # [19:47] <Hixie> i don't understand why chrome is taking so long to apply the :hover effects on the spec now
  646. # [19:47] <Hixie> it didn't used to
  647. # [19:47] <Hixie> there's no transitions
  648. # [19:48] <Hixie> i mean i'm talking like 4 seconds
  649. # [19:49] <dglazkov> esprehn: ^^^
  650. # [19:50] <SamB> Hixie: downgrade!
  651. # [19:51] <dglazkov> Hixie: can you file a bug?
  652. # [19:54] <Hixie> sure
  653. # [19:56] <Hixie> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=376847
  654. # [19:56] <dglazkov> yay
  655. # [19:56] <Hixie> man that's really annoying
  656. # [19:56] <Hixie> wtf
  657. # [19:58] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: WAT
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  670. # [20:39] <mathiasbynens> TypeError: 'null' is not an object (evaluating 'configUI.appendChild')
  671. # [20:39] <mathiasbynens> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/updater.js:71 in initUpdater
  672. # [20:39] <mathiasbynens> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/updater.js:84
  673. # [20:39] <mathiasbynens> heads up Hixie ^
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  678. # [20:54] <mathiasbynens> Hixie: http://whatwg.org/html/tokenization.html#table-charref-overrides includes “0x000D to 0x001F” but http://whatwg.org/html/parsing.html#preprocessing-the-input-stream only has “U+000E to U+001F”. Is U+000D missing from the latter by accident, or is this intentional?
  679. # [20:54] <mathiasbynens> this is the only difference between those two lists of invalid code points
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  688. # [21:07] <jsbell> mathiasbynens: There's a whole paragraph on U+000D in parsing - that appears to answer the question ("there are never any CR characters in the input to the tokenization stage")
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  690. # [21:08] <mathiasbynens> jsbell: ah, gotcha. thanks!
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  700. # [21:30] <Hixie> mathiasbynens: yeah, known issue (the updater.js thing)
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  702. # [21:31] <Hixie> mathiasbynens: it's intentional, you shouldn't ever got to an U+000D at that point in the second list
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  713. # [21:45] <IZh> Hi. If you play several tracks with different length simultaneously, will it lasts until the end of longest track?
  714. # [21:46] <SamB> IZh: what do you mean?
  715. # [21:46] <IZh> I mean long video and short audio.
  716. # [21:46] <SamB> are they being played in a coordinated fashion, or independantly?
  717. # [21:47] <IZh> On the same media controller.
  718. # [21:48] <SamB> okay, so you've reason to expect there to be interaction ;-)
  719. # [21:49] <IZh> SamB: You are right. This will be better than playing silent video by default. :-)
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  723. # [21:52] <SamB> IZh: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#media-controller-duration would seem to indicate that it takes the union of the timelines of the individual resources
  724. # [21:54] <SamB> Hixie: hmm, I kind of miss the glow effect on the target element
  725. # [21:54] <IZh> SamB: The union? Not the maximum? Hmm... Is it possible to make a playlist with sequential playing?
  726. # [21:54] <Hixie> SamB: people wanted no yellow, so...
  727. # [21:54] <SamB> aww
  728. # [21:56] <TabAtkins> I found the yellow glow pretty ugly. The arrow in the margin is much better. ^_^
  729. # [21:56] <SamB> I don't really care about the color, I guess I just liked the part where it highlighted the phrase in question
  730. # [21:58] <SamB> also the arrow doesn't look too accurate?
  731. # [21:58] <Ms2ger> Make it papayawhip
  732. # [21:59] <SamB> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#media-controller-duration has the arrow pointing a line below where I'd expect
  733. # [21:59] <SamB> at least, that's how it looks to me
  734. # [21:59] <Hixie> i can move the arrow up a bit, hold on
  735. # [21:59] <SamB> (firefox 24 ESR, looks like no blocked script)
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  741. # [22:00] <TabAtkins> SamB: It's just a bit of CSS, nothing to do with script.
  742. # [22:01] <SamB> ah, that's more like I'd expect
  743. # [22:01] <Hixie> fixed
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  745. # [22:01] <SamB> of course it looks a bit clipped now since you can't tell the browser "only please scroll up to avoid clipping the arrow"
  746. # [22:01] <SamB> but that's life for you
  747. # [22:03] <Hixie> yeah not much i can do about that
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  750. # [22:12] <Hixie> Domenic: (just reading some of the bugs liek https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20925 ...) oh man, please don't change webidl again
  751. # [22:13] <Hixie> Domenic: every time webidl changes (as opposed to fixing bugs or adding features) i end up with massive amounts of make-work that do nothing to improve the platform
  752. # [22:13] <SamB> Hixie: you could *make* a way ;-P
  753. # [22:13] <Hixie> SamB: that's more a CSS thing, bug zcorpan or TabAtkins :-P
  754. # [22:14] <SamB> hmm, isn't there a nasty thing that happens with pseudo-framed pages and anchors, too?
  755. # [22:14] <TabAtkins> What do you mean?
  756. # [22:15] <SamB> where there's a fixed box that covers the link target?
  757. # [22:18] <TabAtkins> SamB: Still not understanding.
  758. # [22:18] <SamB> hmm
  759. # [22:22] <SamB> TabAtkins: say http://web.archive.org/web/20140506093351/http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-video-element.html#user-interface
  760. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> SamB: So what's the problem?
  761. # [22:24] <SamB> TabAtkins: the target is under the thing at the top there
  762. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> Oh, yes, indeed.
  763. # [22:25] <SamB> I think I've seen such on sites that actually have such headers of their own, but couldn't remember any off the top of my head
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  765. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I've seen that before. It's often due to people wanting to do a variable-height header with scrollable thing underneath, which wasn't really possible before flexbox.
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  769. # [22:38] <Hixie> is es-discuss@mozilla.org the way to contact the people behind the js module stuff?
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  771. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> I believe so
  772. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> Yup.
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  776. # [22:57] <Ms2ger> "If a browsing context P has a Document D with an element E that nests another browsing context C inside it, then C is said to be nested through D, and E is said to be the browsing context container of C."
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  792. # [23:36] <smaug____> why it is so difficult to understand that sync XHR sucks really really badly
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  795. # [23:39] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Because it's easier to use if you don't care about responsiveness at all.
  796. # [23:43] * gsnedders wonders if we can use some NLP toolkit to find sentences in the spec with ambiguous parse-trees.
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  799. # [23:46] <SamB> gsnedders: how would you know which ones were ambiguous in a problematic fashion?
  800. # [23:47] <gsnedders> SamB: Many NLP toolkits give you all possible parse-trees, so if a sentence permits > 1 parse-tree, it's ambiguous
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  802. # [23:50] <gsnedders> But ambiguity isn't per-se a problem, because often the grammatically ambiguous cases are semantic nonsense.
  803. # [23:51] <gsnedders> like the typical example of "I shot an elephant wearing my pyjamas", which can be parsed such that the subject is wearing their pyjamas, or the elephant is wearing their pyjamas. Obviously the second is nonsense.
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  806. # [23:54] <Hixie> the _second_ is the nonsense one?!
  807. # [23:55] <gsnedders> Hixie: when did you last see an elephant wearing pyjamas?
  808. # [23:55] <Hixie> i think it's a hell of a lot more likely that someone would shoot an elephant that was wearing their pyjamas, than it is that an elephant would surprise someone in pyjamas and that that person would just shoot them
  809. # [23:56] <Hixie> when did you last see someone in pyjamas and an elephant at the same time?
  810. # [23:56] <gsnedders> In the film that that quote comes from?
  811. # [23:57] <Hixie> oh well if we're including fiction, then i've almost certainly seen elephants wearing pyjamas
  812. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> How would the elephant even get my pajamas on?
  813. # [23:57] <Hixie> kid's books, cartoons...
  814. # [23:57] <Hixie> kids' books, even
  815. # [23:57] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I think that's rather the point :P
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  817. # [23:57] <TabAtkins> I know, I was directing the question at Hixie.
  818. # [23:58] <gsnedders> I need to be trying to do fewer things at once. This is impractical.
  819. # [23:58] <gsnedders> I should just leave my spec -> code converter till later.
  820. # Session Close: Sat May 24 00:00:00 2014

The end :)