/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-06-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jun 08 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  22. # [01:07] <Hixie> aw man
  23. # [01:07] <Hixie> i'm going through the parser tests in a somewhat random order
  24. # [01:08] <Hixie> but it seems somehow unfair that the second tree constructor test that i ended up having to deal with does foster parenting
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  26. # [01:12] * SamB hands Hixie some orphaned MIME messages
  27. # [01:13] <Hixie> hm?
  28. # [01:16] <gsnedders> Hixie: What random order?
  29. # [01:16] <gsnedders> Hixie: the order they're in the files?
  30. # [01:16] <gsnedders> that's pretty random :)
  31. # [01:17] <Hixie> well the file order i'm using is random
  32. # [01:17] <Hixie> apparently html5lib-tests/tree-construction/tests7.dat is the first test file i'm doing
  33. # [01:18] <Hixie> i got <!doctype html><body><title>X</title> to work
  34. # [01:18] <Hixie> now it's <!doctype html><table><title>X</title></table>
  35. # [01:18] <gsnedders> :)
  36. # [01:18] <Hixie> which seems ambitious for a second test to get right :-)
  37. # [01:18] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@c-76-118-181-62.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) (Quit: tantek)
  38. # [01:18] <gsnedders> Just convert the spec into code using some NLP tool!
  39. # [01:18] <Hixie> hah
  40. # [01:19] <Hixie> how long does html5lib take to do all the tests, btw?
  41. # [01:19] <Hixie> i'm doing this to be faster, but i've no idea if i am :-)
  42. # [01:19] <gsnedders> some number of seconds
  43. # [01:19] <gsnedders> And on what implementation of Python?
  44. # [01:19] <Hixie> is there that much difference?
  45. # [01:20] <zewt> the universe is some number of seconds old
  46. # [01:20] <gsnedders> Hixie: tests, maybe not; general parsing, massively!
  47. # [01:20] <gsnedders> (tests have a lot of weird branches for parse errors taken frequently, real stuff mostly doesn't)
  48. # [01:21] <Hixie> interesting
  49. # [01:24] <gsnedders> for complete.html — CPython 2: 14.7s; CPython 3: 16.4s; PyPy: 7.7s
  50. # [01:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: also remembers whether modules for optional tree formats are installed; PyPy takes 33s to run all the tests in my current WC
  51. # [01:27] <gsnedders> I English good, it seem
  52. # [01:28] <Hixie> what's the difference between CPython and PyPy?
  53. # [01:29] <gsnedders> CPython is the reference implementation, a mere interpreter; PyPy is a tracing JITing VM
  54. # [01:29] <Hixie> ah
  55. # [01:29] <Hixie> i'll have to give you a binary when i'm done, have you compare that
  56. # [01:30] <Hixie> right now it probably does it in aout 20ms but crashes with "not implemented" about 2 lines in :-P
  57. # [01:30] <gsnedders> also note that that figure for the tests including serializer/sanitizer/etc. tests
  58. # [01:30] <Hixie> ah
  59. # [01:30] <Hixie> i'm only doing tokeniser/tree-constructor
  60. # [01:30] <Hixie> (and excluding some of those too, e.g. fragment tests)
  61. # [01:30] <Hixie> (iirc)
  62. # [01:31] <gsnedders> (it appears I really can't watch Buffy and type at the same time :))
  63. # [01:32] <Hixie> ho ho ho, i just found a bug in the html parser
  64. # [01:32] <gsnedders> in the spec?
  65. # [01:32] <zewt> nondeterministic GC in pypy makes me hesitant to go near it, though
  66. # [01:32] <Hixie> yeah
  67. # [01:32] <Hixie> one sec while i check my work
  68. # [01:32] <gsnedders> Do we implement the spec correctly? :)
  69. # [01:32] <Hixie> that's what i'm checking :-)
  70. # [01:33] <gsnedders> It wouldn't be the first time we've had bogus behaviour on the basis the spec did :)
  71. # [01:35] <Hixie> well gecko and blink seem to just ignore my mistake here, which seems wise
  72. # [01:35] <gsnedders> zewt: CPython is non-det GC too
  73. # [01:35] <Hixie> since otherwise they'd probably crash or create a crazy non-dom-valid dom
  74. # [01:35] <Hixie> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3054
  75. # [01:35] <zewt> only with cycles
  76. # [01:35] <gsnedders> Besides, you can make it deterministic in both cases through gc.disable() :)
  77. # [01:35] <zewt> memory.splode()
  78. # [01:37] <Hixie> oh nevermind
  79. # [01:37] <Hixie> the spec actually checks for this later
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  81. # [01:40] <gsnedders> Other problems with converting the spec text: coreference resolution.
  82. # [01:41] <gsnedders> Or not
  83. # [01:41] <gsnedders> Not such a big problem as I thought
  84. # [01:41] <Hixie> cowhat now?
  85. # [01:42] <gsnedders> Consider: "Consume the next input character; output the character".
  86. # [01:42] <gsnedders> What does "the character" refer to?
  87. # [01:42] <Hixie> aah
  88. # [01:42] <Hixie> yeah
  89. # [01:42] <Hixie> good luck!
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  91. # [01:42] <gsnedders> I don't think you actually have that much coreference in the tokenizer at least though
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  93. # [01:43] <gsnedders> Because you almost always (maybe always?) use "the current input character"
  94. # [01:44] <Hixie> man the foster parenting algorithm sure is described in a round-about way
  95. # [01:44] <gsnedders> Yes.
  96. # [01:45] <gsnedders> I think this Hixie guy is to blame there :)
  97. # [01:45] <Hixie> pah
  98. # [01:45] * Hixie implements it completely differently and hopes he's right that it's isomorphic
  99. # [01:45] <gsnedders> Proving stuff is equivilent is hard given the spec machine is infinite state :(
  100. # [01:46] <Hixie> well proving that this subpart is equivalent should be easier
  101. # [01:47] <gsnedders> tbf, one can likely bound the stack of open elements at something like 10 elements and the list of active formatting elements similarly and then just argue everything will just be those with extra elements of no effect inbetween
  102. # [01:47] <Hixie> be careful about that
  103. # [01:47] <Hixie> noah's ark really screws with that
  104. # [01:47] <Hixie> if you do that you want a pretty high cap, iirc
  105. # [01:48] <gsnedders> Yeah, you will
  106. # [01:48] <gsnedders> I haven't tried to work it out
  107. # [01:48] <SamB> noah's ark is a technical term now?
  108. # [01:48] <gsnedders> I fear it's exponential to the number of formatting elements.
  109. # [01:48] <Hixie> SamB: so many silly terms in the parser, you've no idea
  110. # [01:48] <Hixie> SamB: it's the only way i could stay sane
  111. # [01:48] <Hixie> while writing it
  112. # [01:48] * gsnedders takes a deep breath and carries on
  113. # [01:48] <Hixie> yeah, that one too :-)
  114. # [01:49] * Hixie implemented that just yesterday (commented out, of course)
  115. # [01:49] <gsnedders> Hixie: Do you know of any bug for the spec being slow in Firefox?
  116. # [01:49] <Hixie> slow to load?
  117. # [01:49] <Hixie> no
  118. # [01:49] <Hixie> but it's a problem for sure
  119. # [01:49] <SamB> Hixie: that reminds me of \relax
  120. # [01:50] <Hixie> is it worrying when you implement an algorithm and your implementation has none of the variables of the original? :-)
  121. # [01:50] * SamB isn't really TeXnically aware enough to know all that \relax is good for ...
  122. # [01:50] <SamB> Hixie: it should worry someone
  123. # [01:50] <gsnedders> Hixie: Not replicating the WebKit HTML parser bug with </sarcasm> then? :)
  124. # [01:50] <SamB> hmm
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  126. # [01:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: something around layout is slow when the window changes size, like to open the find box :(
  127. # [01:51] <SamB> gsnedders: where did that crop up?
  128. # [01:51] <Hixie> gsnedders: i still love that that happened
  129. # [01:51] <SamB> someone forgot to escape </sarcasm>, or was it inside a script or something?
  130. # [01:51] <Hixie> gsnedders: yeah, reflow is slow. dunno of a specific bug. cc me if you file one.
  131. # [01:52] <gsnedders> Hixie: k
  132. # [01:52] <Hixie> gotta go, bbl
  133. # [01:52] <gsnedders> SamB: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45645
  134. # [01:52] <gsnedders> SamB: This is the reason html5lib has tests for </sarcasm> :)
  135. # [01:52] * SamB looks around for something spritely to open that on
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  137. # [01:53] <SamB> has the standard managed to avoid mentioning </sarcasm> thus far?
  138. # [01:53] <gsnedders> The WebKit bug is there because the standard *does* mention it
  139. # [01:53] <SamB> hah
  140. # [01:53] <gsnedders> As Hixie said, the parser section is full of jokes
  141. # [01:54] <zewt> sure am tired of having to find obscure switches to tell MSVC to stop telling me that C functions like read() are "deprecated"
  142. # [01:54] <gsnedders> An end tag whose tag name is "sarcasm"
  143. # [01:54] <gsnedders> Take a deep breath, then act as described in the "any other end tag" entry below.
  144. # [01:54] <gsnedders> SamB: ^^
  145. # [01:54] <SamB> zewt: ouch
  146. # [01:54] <gsnedders> That's far too funny if you're actually in the middle of just implementing every single case one by one :)
  147. # [01:55] <SamB> does "take a deep breath" link somewhere?
  148. # [01:55] <gsnedders> nah
  149. # [01:55] <gsnedders> SamB: Seems like a bug. Report it! :)
  150. # [01:56] <zewt> uh, woah, now it's defaulting to having them as errors
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  152. # [01:59] <SamB> zewt: so, um, the headers don't make it clear how to disable that?
  153. # [01:59] <SamB> you *did* look at the headers, right?
  154. # [01:59] <zewt> some of the warnings do ("#define this special thing" for sprintf()), but not read()
  155. # [01:59] <SamB> the funny thing is, read() doesn't have any buffer-size issues or anything
  156. # [02:00] <zewt> hell no i'm not going to dig into seventy-deep system headers, i'll let the web figure it out
  157. # [02:00] <SamB> I mean, like, can you see what construct is causing MSVC to treat those things as deprecated
  158. # [02:00] <SamB> yeah, I really don't like MSVC very much
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  160. # [02:02] <SamB> the one thing I've liked about it in the past is that I can actually get more-or-less a whole stack trace for code compiled with it
  161. # [02:02] <SamB> but maybe I could do that with an up-to-date GDB, too
  162. # [02:04] <SamB> (with GCC on windows, I've had to resort to stuff like using WinDbg alongside GDB and/or binutils)
  163. # [02:05] <SamB> (where WinDbg can unwind to my code -- and very likely also through it -- and GDB or binutils can help me with the addresses/name mappings)
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  166. # [02:08] <SamB> (hmm, I guess intelisense is also kind of cool ...)
  167. # [02:08] <SamB> (but not cool enough to really want to deal with cl.exe ...)
  168. # [02:08] <SamB> (or, well, the compiler proper's probably in DLLs now ...)
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  170. # [02:10] <SamB> Hixie: isn't the outline for http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-end.html kind of nonsensical?
  171. # [02:12] <Philip`> zewt: "#define _CRT_SECURE_NO_WARNINGS" has worked in all the cases I've seen so far
  172. # [02:13] <SamB> do they seriously have a read_s?
  173. # [02:14] * SamB reported https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26012
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  175. # [02:16] * gsnedders finally has a moment in which he thinks having text nodes is a good distinction from strings
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  193. # [03:17] <Domenic> Hah, I like how in the WebKit source code there's an actual callTheAdoptionAgency(token); line
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  195. # [03:20] <SamB> Domenic: well how would YOU name something that implements "call the adoption agency"?
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  199. # [03:48] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  201. # [03:50] <caitp> "activateTerribleDesignDecision()"
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  206. # [04:01] <caitp> seriously, who ever came up with that reparenting scheme... SMH ._.
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  222. # [04:38] <gsnedders> caitp: see the acknowledgements section of the spec; Dave Hyatt
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  224. # [04:38] <gsnedders> caitp: and if you start with the requirement that the DOM must be a tree, it's not clear you can do much better :(
  225. # [04:39] <caitp> gsnedders, this discussion has been had with hixie --- the DOM doesn't break when things don't get reparented, you can see this by dynamically inserting arbitrary content at places where it would ordinarily be reparented during parsing
  226. # [04:40] <caitp> it was a mistake to ever decide the DOM needed to reparent things, and it turns out to be very hard to fix that mistake ._.
  227. # [04:40] <caitp> but I don't like to name names when mocking terrible design decisions
  228. # [04:41] <caitp> people did it wrong before, and I guess we're stuck with it forever :(
  229. # [04:41] <gsnedders> But if you don't reparent you don't get a DOM that renders correctly, no?
  230. # [04:42] <caitp> you get a DOM that renders the way you expected it to be rendered when you authored your content wrong
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  232. # [04:43] <caitp> the reparenting thing A) complicates things for no good reason, and B) makes things like custom elements slightly harder to implement correctly without the use of hackish nonsense like is=*
  233. # [04:44] <caitp> all to avoid breaking some awful smut website, I mean really
  234. # [04:44] <gsnedders> Plenty would argue "to avoid breaking some website" is a good reason. :)
  235. # [04:44] <caitp> people were not thinking when they decided this was something that needed to happen, but it's too hard to fix it =(
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  237. # [04:47] <gsnedders> But, eh, the ship sailed when it came to misnested content tags before I could speak (probably).
  238. # [04:49] <caitp> from my perspective, my generation shouldn't have to pay for mistakes made by the generation that came a decade or two before, we should be fixing their broken crap
  239. # [04:49] <caitp> but herr ian disagrees
  240. # [04:50] <gsnedders> meh, plenty of evidence that breaking websites leads web browsers to lose marketshare and not websites being fixed
  241. # [04:50] <caitp> from my perspective, that's not a real excuse, if it leads to future work having to satisfy earlier, broken work
  242. # [04:51] <caitp> but people have their priorities, I guess
  243. # [04:51] <caitp> I just think they're getting it wrong in this case
  244. # [04:51] <gsnedders> convince the browser vendors to lose their marketshare, I guess
  245. # [04:51] <gsnedders> And there's again plenty of evidence what's in a spec doesn't really effect what browsers do in terms of breaking sites
  246. # [04:51] <caitp> that is certainly true
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  248. # [04:52] <caitp> but the fact that the reparenting scheme lives in the spec sort of validates the decision to include broken stuff in the browser
  249. # [04:53] <gsnedders> Only difference the spec dropping it would make is the spec would cease to have implementations
  250. # [04:53] <caitp> if all vendors decided to ignore it
  251. # [04:54] <gsnedders> which they will
  252. # [04:54] <caitp> I don't think you can say "they will"
  253. # [04:54] <caitp> there are a lot of implementations out there
  254. # [04:55] <gsnedders> well, any impl with any real number of users will ignore it
  255. # [04:56] <caitp> I'm not sure about that, I don't think fixing that particular part of brokenness would hurt marketshare that much for a mainstream browser
  256. # [04:56] <caitp> and it would be temporary
  257. # [04:56] <caitp> you know why it's temporary, because people have their browser of choice, it's part of their identity, it becomes who they are!
  258. # [04:57] <caitp> that sounds silly, but it's not that much of an exaggeration, people have preferences for this stuff
  259. # [04:57] <caitp> pretty strong, irrational preferences
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  286. # [06:22] * Hixie runs into the fact that the stack of open elements is sometimes randomly mutated
  287. # [06:22] <Hixie> bummer
  288. # [06:23] <Hixie> that's gonna be exciting.
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  303. # [07:19] <Hixie> hey someone double-check me here. In "push onto the list of active formatting elements", where the spec says "list markers", it should say "scope markers", no?
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  357. # [11:20] <jgraham> Hixie: AFAICT there you use "list marker", in the definition above you use "scope marker" and everywhere else you use "marker"
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  496. # [18:09] <Hixie> jgraham: k, that's what i concluded too
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  502. # [18:16] <jgraham> Hixie: FWIW I think "scope marker" is a bad name since it requires a note that it doesn't correspond to the other notion of "in scope"
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  507. # [18:42] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah...
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  510. # [18:47] <Hixie> ok, renamed them all to just "marker", that's unambiguous enough
  511. # [18:47] <Hixie> also, made them all cross-refs
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  514. # [18:50] <jgraham> Hixie++
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  653. # [23:59] * N1K0L is now known as nikol
  654. # Session Close: Mon Jun 09 00:00:00 2014

The end :)