/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-06-09 / end

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  66. # [01:51] <gsnedders> http://anolis.gsnedders.com/ seems pretty silly
  67. # [01:51] <gsnedders> Why doesn't that just redirect?
  68. # [01:51] <gsnedders> o_O
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  103. # [04:14] <Hixie> wow, you sure have a lot of tests
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  115. # [05:50] <Hixie> woot, i finally found a real bug in the parser tests
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  117. # [05:55] <Hixie> oh wow, no, it's a spec bug
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  119. # [06:13] * Hixie fixes the spec
  120. # [06:13] <Hixie> looks like validator.nu already does this per the new spec
  121. # [06:14] <SamB> cool
  122. # [06:14] <SamB> just pretend it was always this way
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  125. # [06:35] <Hixie> bummo, finally got to a test that relies on the script data less than sign state
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  127. # [06:37] <caitp> bummo
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  142. # [07:44] <Hixie> woops, the last checkin's message is bogus
  143. # [07:45] <Hixie> damnit
  144. # [07:45] <caitp> quick, force-push
  145. # [07:45] <caitp> before it's too late!
  146. # [07:46] <Hixie> don't think svn supports that, does it?
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  149. # [07:47] <SamB> Hixie: no, but I think you *can* edit the commit message
  150. # [07:47] <Hixie> yeah, using svnadmin apparently
  151. # [07:47] <Hixie> i wonder where the repo actually is...
  152. # [07:47] <SamB> could do strange things to git mirrors ...
  153. # [07:48] <Hixie> aha, here we go
  154. # [07:48] <Hixie> eh, it's the checkin message
  155. # [07:48] <Hixie> how bad could it be
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  157. # [07:49] <SamB> history would diverge depending on whether or not they saw the commit with the old message
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  159. # [07:49] <caitp> i'm sure svn has full support for being terrible just like git does
  160. # [07:53] <Hixie> there, history has been revised.
  161. # [07:53] <Hixie> la la la.
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  163. # [07:56] <Hixie> oh great, i found a bug in my tokeniser that the tokeniser tests didn't catch
  164. # [07:56] <Hixie> oops
  165. # [07:56] <Hixie> ok well now that i've broken everything it's time for bed. nn.
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  184. # [08:41] <Ms2ger> "RESOLVED: Specs that define obsolete features don't need to test those features to exit CR."
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  202. # [09:11] <annevk_> foolip: apparently Hixie changed a commit message in SVN, will that have bad effects on your mirror?
  203. # [09:11] * annevk_ is now known as annevk
  204. # [09:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: what, for real?
  205. # [09:15] <Ms2ger> Part III of the Seoul notes
  206. # [09:15] <annevk> Oh wow, this was not from the HTML WG?
  207. # [09:15] <annevk> o_O
  208. # [09:15] <Ms2ger> No, CSS
  209. # [09:15] * annevk is not impressed
  210. # [09:17] <Ms2ger> You should know I don't pay attention to the HTMLWG :)
  211. # [09:17] <annevk> So is the table display model now obsolete?
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  225. # [09:49] <foolip> annevk: how did he do that?
  226. # [09:49] <foolip> but more importantly, which commit?
  227. # [09:49] <annevk> foolip: the last commit I think
  228. # [09:50] <foolip> let me check
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  233. # [09:51] <foolip> do you know what the old and new message was?
  234. # [09:52] <annevk> foolip: old is what http://html5.org/r/8665 has
  235. # [09:53] <annevk> foolip: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20140609#l-142
  236. # [09:53] <annevk> Ms2ger: with Anolis, why if I have <dfn>origin</dfn> I cannot refer to an origin defined elsehwere?
  237. # [09:53] <annevk> Ms2ger: why is data-anolis-spec not stronger?
  238. # [09:53] <Ms2ger> Mm
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  240. # [09:54] <Ms2ger> That's probably because those are implemented in different processes
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  242. # [09:56] <Ms2ger> Try https://pastebin.mozilla.org/5378908
  243. # [09:56] <annevk> I'll hack around it
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  245. # [09:57] <annevk> I want to switch to Bikeshed at some point anyway
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  256. # [10:06] <foolip> annevk: html-mirror is now in sync with svn, but you'll probably need to force update your end since it's not a fast-forward commit
  257. # [10:07] <annevk> foolip: is there a way I can always do that?
  258. # [10:08] <annevk> foolip: so I don't have to do it if it happens again
  259. # [10:10] <foolip> yeah, you could fetch and reset --hard in your script
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  268. # [10:25] <annevk> foolip: I can't get it to change
  269. # [10:25] <annevk> foolip: I tried git fetch --force; git reset --hard
  270. # [10:25] <annevk> foolip: also tried git pull --force
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  274. # [10:27] <foolip> annevk: try simply git fetch and git reset --hard origin/master
  275. # [10:27] <foolip> (assuming you're on the master branch)
  276. # [10:30] <annevk> foolip: that seems to have fixed it
  277. # [10:30] <annevk> foolip: should I just change my script to that then?
  278. # [10:31] <annevk> I guess if Hixie does it again I'll do that
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  281. # [10:34] <zcorpan> heycam|away: doesn't webidl allow single quotes? https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/csswg/rev/aec2cc899bab
  282. # [10:36] <zcorpan> http://heycam.github.io/webidl/#prod-string
  283. # [10:36] <Ms2ger> Apparently not
  284. # [10:36] <zcorpan> oh well
  285. # [10:37] <zcorpan> i actually run a webidl checker in the build process but it's flooded with missing interface type definitions so i missed that thing
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  288. # [10:43] <foolip> annevk: there's a small risk that if my mirror breaks completely, reset --hard on your end will blindly follow along, leaving the web interface also broken until someone notices
  289. # [10:43] <foolip> I don't think it's going to matter much what you do, it'll be some work either way
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  298. # [11:03] <annevk> foolip: okay, left it as is for now
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  300. # [11:10] <zcorpan> annevk: the css "obsolete" was in the context of features that are non-web and must not be implemented by browsers
  301. # [11:10] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: ^
  302. # [11:12] <zcorpan> i guess it wouldn't hurt with negative tests, but OTOH i think it's fine to exit CR always
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  306. # [11:28] <Ms2ger> I see
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  308. # [11:33] <annevk> Maybe I'll merge XMLHttpRequest in sooner. There's a lot of potential code sharing between XMLHttpRequest and fetch()
  309. # [11:34] * Ms2ger looks what fetch() looks like
  310. # [11:37] <Ms2ger> Ah, GlobalFetch, there it is
  311. # [11:37] <JakeA> annevk: response.url, what did we decide that would be for constructed responses?
  312. # [11:38] <annevk> JakeA: the empty string, underlying object would be null
  313. # [11:38] <Ms2ger> annevk, do you want to implement Promises in Servo? :)
  314. # [11:38] <zcorpan> annevk: how do you suggest i fix addListener without invoking addEventListener?
  315. # [11:38] <annevk> zcorpan: you can use the underlying concepts just as addEventListener does
  316. # [11:38] <annevk> Ms2ger: not really
  317. # [11:39] <zcorpan> annevk: ok
  318. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> Would be nice if Servo did fetch() first
  319. # [11:39] <annevk> Servo should do Fetch first
  320. # [11:40] <Ms2ger> Not it :)
  321. # [11:40] <JakeA> annevk: So, if a page's CSP wanted to prevent constructed responses, we already have ways to detect that? We'd just need a CSP step after step 8 http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#http-fetch
  322. # [11:41] <annevk> JakeA: yes the idea for SW / CSP is to have a new step around there
  323. # [11:41] <JakeA> cool
  324. # [11:41] <annevk> JakeA: we still need to check if we do all the correct things with regards to redirects and such
  325. # [11:42] <annevk> JakeA: also currently response.url will be overwritten by request.url so we might need some distinct flag
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  327. # [11:42] <annevk> JakeA: there's a bunch of things there we need to walk through carefully
  328. # [11:43] <annevk> I haven't done that, I'm mostly working on defining the API
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  332. # [11:44] <JakeA> annevk: Is there any reason to overwrite response.url with request.url if the fetch is invoked recursively? That may be a good way to preserve it for the final CSP check
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  334. # [11:45] <annevk> JakeA: yes, to make sure it's correct with respect to redirects
  335. # [11:45] <annevk> JakeA: otherwise e.g. responseURL on XMLHttpRequest would be wrong
  336. # [11:45] <JakeA> gotcha
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  343. # [12:18] <annevk> JakeA: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#fetchbodystream
  344. # [12:19] <JakeA> annevk: wfm!
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  348. # [12:32] <annevk> JakeA: the main outstanding issue now is header representation
  349. # [12:32] <annevk> JakeA: I guess I'll try to tidy up everything aside from that
  350. # [12:33] <annevk> JakeA: if you could get some people to chime in on https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/300 that'd be great
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  361. # [12:54] <toydestroyer> Hi! Anyone here from Russian Google office in Moscow?
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  367. # [13:05] <JakeA> annevk: Is anyone aside from Jonas against your proposal?
  368. # [13:06] <annevk> JakeA: not sure, also unsure whether HeaderMap is still the best name if it isn't really a map
  369. # [13:06] <annevk> Maybe just Headers
  370. # [13:09] <JakeA> annevk: Headers works, or HeaderData like FormData. I prefer just Headers.
  371. # [13:09] <JakeA> annevk: I think the proposal is spot on though. I don't think we need to make it a Map
  372. # [13:09] <annevk> Should we namespace all these classes? FetchHeaders, FetchRequest?
  373. # [13:10] <annevk> At the moment some are namespaced, some are not
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  376. # [13:14] <JakeA> annevk: not keen on FetchRequest etc. Should it be HTTPRequest, or is it safe to assume http for browser requests?
  377. # [13:15] <JakeA> Although HTTPHeaders is clear
  378. # [13:15] <annevk> JakeA: HTTP is wrong for fetch()
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  380. # [13:15] <annevk> JakeA: fetch() takes data URLs and such too
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  382. # [13:16] <JakeA> annevk: Yeah, but when I do new Response(body) I'm creating an HTTP response
  383. # [13:16] <JakeA> anyway, I'm happy with just Response
  384. # [13:16] <annevk> JakeA: I'm not sure I see it that way
  385. # [13:16] <annevk> JakeA: e.g. Fetch (the spec) creates responses for data URLs too, they look like HTTP responses, but naming them such seems wrong
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  387. # [13:17] <JakeA> fair
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  391. # [13:23] <jgraham> annevk: I agree with your proposal fwiw
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  403. # [13:58] <Domenic> annevk: so to('blob') ignores its argument if someone has previously called to('arraybuffer')? I think throwing an error would be better?
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  405. # [14:02] <Domenic> errr return a rejected promise, of course
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  407. # [14:16] <Domenic> annevk: > If the given value is not in the range 200 to 599, throw a TypeError. // should be RangeError
  408. # [14:18] <annevk> Domenic: you mean it would only work once?
  409. # [14:18] <annevk> JakeA: ^^
  410. # [14:19] <annevk> Domenic: happy b-day btw
  411. # [14:19] <JakeA> Domenic: Ohh, happy birthday! Are you allowed to drink in pubs yet? :P
  412. # [14:20] <Domenic> annevk: thanks :). and, gtg, but yes, once you consume the stream, it's all gone. can discuss more later, maybe will open an issue or something
  413. # [14:20] <JakeA> annevk: If streams can only be consumed once, then to() should reject on second calling
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  423. # [14:44] <annevk> JakeA: we could make to() store the contents somewhere, but it's prolly better to just throw it away I guess
  424. # [14:45] <JakeA> annevk: throwing away sounds better. More compatible with streams and better for memory
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  430. # [14:54] <annevk> fixed
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  433. # [14:57] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: you must be new here (re https://github.com/ResponsiveImagesCG/picture-element/issues/198 )
  434. # [14:57] <mathiasbynens> zcorpan: i guess I should go see the topic ^ now?
  435. # [14:57] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: yes :-)
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  437. # [14:59] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: so in this case i'd expect people to use <picture> and test in a browser without support for <picture> (using picturefill or so) and conclude that everything is fine
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  439. # [14:59] <zcorpan> but maybe it's not much of an issue
  440. # [14:59] <zcorpan> (or they test in a browser with support for <picture> but don't test dragging)
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  472. # [16:00] <annevk> Domenic: should Response.redirect() throw RangeError too?
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  496. # [16:25] <caitp> irc clients mang, they're not very good
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  511. # [16:51] <MikeSmith> hey caitp
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  513. # [16:53] <caitp> good morning MikeSmith senpai
  514. # [16:53] <MikeSmith> heh
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  517. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> caitp: been meaning to ask you about https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/981
  518. # [16:55] <MikeSmith> Does that need review from annevk maybe?
  519. # [16:56] <MikeSmith> oh I see Simon commented on it
  520. # [16:56] <caitp> there was an issue opened about it on fetch or xhr, I forget
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  522. # [16:57] <MikeSmith> ok
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  525. # [17:07] <Domenic> annevk: ya RangeError there too I think.
  526. # [17:07] <Domenic> annevk: use GitHub issues and link to them from the top :)
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  528. # [17:08] <annevk> Domenic: don't really want to migrate the existing setup
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  620. # [19:33] <hemanth> From v0.11.6 I'm waiting for direct proxies in node..now we are at v0.11.13 still they havn arrived..:/ but why?
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  633. # [19:45] <Domenic> hemanth: nobody is working on proxies in V8.
  634. # [19:45] <Domenic> https://code.google.com/p/v8/issues/detail?id=1543
  635. # [19:47] <hemanth> Domenic, Holy Goodness, it was reported on Jul 7, 2011! :(
  636. # [19:48] <Domenic> hemanth: implementer priorities are what they are... age of a feature doesn't really make much of a difference.
  637. # [19:49] <annevk> 2011 is nothing
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  640. # [19:50] <hemanth> Why are they finding it hard to sync up!? AFAIK SpiderMonkey is the only one which is almost up to the mark...
  641. # [19:51] <zewt> people have a lot to work on?
  642. # [19:51] <hemanth> But why have Proxy.create()? Rather remove it.
  643. # [19:51] <TabAtkins> annevk: Context for "obsolete doesn't need to be tested" is some property values that we're only defining in an informative appendix as having been supported by some printers, never browsers.
  644. # [19:52] <Domenic> SpiderMonkey also seems more willing to push out mostly-compliant, but unoptimized, versions of ES6 features.
  645. # [19:52] <Domenic> hemanth: they don't have Proxy.create() unless you turn on flags
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  647. # [19:52] <annevk> TabAtkins: yeah, zcorpan mentioned that, I guess that's fine
  648. # [19:53] <hemanth> Domenic, Yeah, in any case for most of the ES6 features we need to turn on the flag
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  653. # [19:56] <hemanth> I can understand it's tough for all the implementer to be in sync, but atleast when they are implementing a new spec, they can try to be, right? Each time a new spec is being implemented again the same mistakes are repeated....
  654. # [19:56] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, things which need to be supported by browsers obviously need testing, even if they're obsolete and not to be used by authors.
  655. # [19:56] <hemanth> Sorry, but I'm finding it hard to understand the underlying problem.
  656. # [19:56] <annevk> hemanth: wrong channel to complain about V8
  657. # [19:57] * hemanth sits at a corner.
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  660. # [19:58] <hemanth> No response at #node.js; annevk. I'm not complaining, just trying to understand...
  661. # [19:59] <hemanth> <pachet> hemanth: because proxies are evil and will cause all of your friends to stop talking to you
  662. # [19:59] <hemanth> ^ heh heh from #node.js
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  665. # [19:59] <annevk> hemanth: there's no infinite resources for a project so there is some balancing between new features, improving existing features, fixing bugs, perf, security, etc.
  666. # [20:00] <annevk> hemanth: then there's been ongoing discussion on the proxy design over in TC39 over the past couple of years which will likely lower priority for implementing it, etc.
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  669. # [20:00] <annevk> hemanth: age of the bug doesn't really matter, there's decade old bugs that haven't been fixed yet
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  675. # [20:02] <hemanth> Thanks for the insight annevk.
  676. # [20:03] * hemanth makes a note in his diary : "So it's all about implementer priorities and finite resources."
  677. # [20:03] <caitp> that's a recurring theme around here
  678. # [20:04] <hemanth> :)
  679. # [20:05] <Hixie> well "If the next token is a U+000A LINE FEED (LF) character token, then ignore that token and move on to the next one" is a huge pain in the neck...
  680. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> Indeed
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  683. # [20:06] <Hixie> i guess the tree constructor just has to set a flag on the tokeniser
  684. # [20:14] <hemanth> Can anyone state an example for an exotic object?
  685. # [20:14] <Hixie> Window
  686. # [20:14] <Hixie> (right?)
  687. # [20:14] <Hixie> (or no?)
  688. # [20:14] <Ms2ger> []?
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  692. # [20:16] <hemanth> Window heh heh yup, [] not sure.
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  695. # [20:17] <hemanth> "Any object that is not an ordinary object is an exotic object."
  696. # [20:17] <Ms2ger> [] is an exotic array object, I think
  697. # [20:17] <Domenic> yeah, [] is one
  698. # [20:18] <hemanth> Domenic, please elaborate :)
  699. # [20:18] <Hixie> i hate it when i see an obvious bug in the code, fix it, and all my tests break
  700. # [20:18] <caitp> "writing things in a definitive manner? why would anyone ever want to do that"
  701. # [20:18] <Domenic> hemanth: see all of https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-built-in-exotic-object-internal-methods-and-data-fields
  702. # [20:18] <hemanth> As in it has alternative behaviour for one or more of the essential internal methods?
  703. # [20:19] <jorendorff> yep
  704. # [20:19] <jorendorff> i'm not sure how useful that distinction is outside of the ES specification
  705. # [20:19] <Domenic> strings are also exotic objects
  706. # [20:20] <jorendorff> but inside, the word "ordinary" is useful.
  707. # [20:20] <jorendorff> "exotic", less so, since not all "exotic" objects are really very exotic at all
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  710. # [20:20] <jorendorff> String wrapper objects and Arrays, for example, are only very slightly exotic
  711. # [20:20] <hemanth> but it does not expand on the alternative behaviours
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  714. # [20:20] <jorendorff> hemanth: what do you want to know?
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  716. # [20:21] <hemanth> example for alternative behaviour for one or more of the essential internal methods.
  717. # [20:21] <jorendorff> ok
  718. # [20:21] <jorendorff> hemanth: Array objects, for example
  719. # [20:22] <jorendorff> hemanth: when you add an element, the .length magically updates
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  721. # [20:22] <jorendorff> hemanth: i think that's the only thing. described at great length in people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-array-exp
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  724. # [20:24] <hemanth> The term "Alternative Behaviour" is bit puzzling jorendorff
  725. # [20:24] <jorendorff> hemanth: yeah, it's not optional alternative behavior, it's specified customized behavior
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  727. # [20:25] <caitp> technical writing is hard
  728. # [20:25] <jorendorff> they just have overridden internal methods
  729. # [20:25] <caitp> most people can't do it
  730. # [20:25] <jorendorff> yeah no kidding
  731. # [20:25] <jorendorff> if i were the editor of that document, it would look a lot different from how it looks now
  732. # [20:25] <jorendorff> better in ways that are obvious to me, worse in ways that are in my blind spots
  733. # [20:25] <Ms2ger> I might be a lot happier with it :)
  734. # [20:26] <hemanth> Yeah, we need to speed 2x the time it took to write them, in understanding
  735. # [20:27] * jorendorff nods sympathetically
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  737. # [20:28] <jorendorff> hemanth: TC39 doesn't take patches for wording but good crisp bugs filed in bugs.ecmascript.org do get addressed, usually fairly quickly
  738. # [20:28] <hemanth> So in simple terms, any object whose internal methods are overridden they can be considered as exotic.
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  741. # [20:28] <jorendorff> hemanth: exactly, yes
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  743. # [20:28] <jorendorff> hemanth: let me rephrase: TC39 has crummy dev practice and there's no process equivalent to a pull request
  744. # [20:28] <jorendorff> hemanth: but the editor responds to bugs.
  745. # [20:29] <hemanth> When I thought Window was exotic, I was wrong with my understanding, now its clear...phew.
  746. # [20:30] <hemanth> Nice. Let me try raising a bug, asking to give some examples for exotic objects for better understanding ;)
  747. # [20:30] <hemanth> Poor exotic bugs occupy only 3-4 lines in the entire spec, apart from that bound functions.
  748. # [20:30] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  749. # [20:31] <hemanth> Thanks jorendorff, Domenic :)
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  790. # [21:43] <annevk> yay, feedback from Microsoft
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  799. # [22:01] <annevk> JakeA: Domenic: if to() reads all, what happens if you then store it?
  800. # [22:01] <annevk> JakeA: Domenic: there won't be anything, that seems kinda sad
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  832. # [22:41] <Domenic> annevk: what do you mean, "then store it"?
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  866. # [23:55] <estellevw> on http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/input.button.html the constraints and admonitions make it seem like list is a valid attribute. While it does not mention the list attribute as a valid attribute in the first half of the document, adding "The list attribute of the input element must refer to a datalist element." on the button type page makes it seem like it would actually do something. Does anyone know who edits these pages, and if it makes sense to bug
  867. # [23:55] <estellevw> them to remove that line?
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  870. # [23:58] <Domenic> estellevw: did you see the abstract at http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/Overview.html ?
  871. # [23:58] <estellevw> nope. i did not. thanks
  872. # Session Close: Tue Jun 10 00:00:00 2014

The end :)