/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-06-10 / end

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  5. # [00:01] <estellevw> wow. those pages aren't as informative as the archive. I need to do some updating. (Anyone have a time traveler I can borrow so I can find the time.)
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  66. # [01:53] <Hixie> hm, that's odd
  67. # [01:53] <Hixie> my mail to es-discuss didn't make the archives?
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  71. # [02:00] <Hixie> hey anyone know how we're doing with dropping mutation events?
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  77. # [02:07] <zewt> are sandboxed iframes included in a "unit of related similar-origin browsing contexts"? (seems like they are)
  78. # [02:08] <zewt> (tokens like "unit of related similar-origin browsing contexts" remind me of my Netware days)
  79. # [02:09] <Hixie> depends on their origin
  80. # [02:09] <zewt> oh, yeah, missed the distinction between that and "directly reachable browsing contexts"
  81. # [02:09] <zewt> which is probably what I was thinking more of
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  83. # [02:11] <zewt> (FWIW "that, through appropriate manipulation of the document.domain attribute, could be made to be the same as other members of the group, but could not be made the same as members of any other group" seems a bit more spec-by-describing-the-result than most of HTML)
  84. # [02:11] <Hixie> yup
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  86. # [02:11] <Hixie> spec-by-describing-the-result is the better way to write a spec, if you can do so in a way that describes all the cases
  87. # [02:12] <TabAtkins> Yup, that's what using grammars do, too. (And why using grammars isn't always the right choice for parsing.)
  88. # [02:12] <Hixie> often, though, especially with things like processing inputs, parsing, etc, describing steps results in much less prose than describing results
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  92. # [02:16] <Hixie> damnit, i spent all afternoon tracing this one bug, and it's all because i assumed "continue" would skip the loop condition and just jump back to the top
  93. # [02:16] <zewt> it's easily the line in the spec I've had to squint the hardest at to figure out what it's saying to do
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  95. # [02:16] <Hixie> yeah... the advantage of writing it that way is that the spec writer doesn't have to do the work :-)
  96. # [02:16] <TabAtkins> Hixie: On a for loop? Yeah, it skips to the top, but then it processes as normal.
  97. # [02:17] <Hixie> TabAtkins: repeat...until loop, but yeah, same deal
  98. # [02:17] <TabAtkins> "continue [to the next iteration]"
  99. # [02:17] <TabAtkins> Ah.
  100. # [02:17] <TabAtkins> do/while loops are just while loops that dont' test their first iteration.
  101. # [02:17] <Hixie> i knew this, i just happened to make two changes at the same time that interacted and didn't think about it
  102. # [02:17] <zewt> repeat until? ... pascal? heh
  103. # [02:18] <Hixie> i miss perl's loop control
  104. # [02:18] <Hixie> perl has awesome loop control
  105. # [02:18] <Hixie> next, last, redo, continue, loop labels...
  106. # [02:18] <zewt> usually if i'm getting annoyed at things like needing to break out multiple levels, i just break stuff into a nested function
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  109. # [02:18] <zewt> beyond that the standard mechanics usually work well for me
  110. # [02:19] <zewt> (which I guess is just continue and break)
  111. # [02:19] <Hixie> if your loop body is one line, breaking it into a function makes it way harder to read
  112. # [02:19] <zewt> if my loop body is one line, there aren't multiple levels to break out of
  113. # [02:20] <Hixie> inner loop body
  114. # [02:20] <Hixie> or if you have a complicated nesting of multiple loops
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  116. # [02:20] <zewt> i mean taking eg. for(x=0; x < width; ++x) { for(y=0; y < height; ++y) { break 2; } }, making the whole thing a function and just using return
  117. # [02:21] <Hixie> the point being that if your "code" is brief compared to your loop logic, splitting into a function ends up being harder to read than perl-style control
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  121. # [02:22] <SamB> zewt: how does turning it into a non-local return help?
  122. # [02:22] <zewt> function() { for(x=0; x < width; ++x) { for(y=0; y < height; ++y) { return; } } }
  123. # [02:22] <SamB> oh
  124. # [02:22] <zewt> exits the whole loop
  125. # [02:22] <SamB> well, that's still no goto
  126. # [02:23] <Hixie> make it three levels of loops where the inner lever has to break out of the inner two but not the third
  127. # [02:23] <SamB> or whatever they have in Pascal
  128. # [02:23] <Hixie> to see what i mean about functions being unclear compared to inline loop control
  129. # [02:23] <zewt> it's a workaround and things like break statements that supply a number of levels to break might be a bit better (i assume perl has something like that), but that's the only loop construct i tend to need a workaround like that for
  130. # [02:23] <Hixie> pascal's as bad as C as far as loop control goes
  131. # [02:23] <Hixie> perl has labeled loops
  132. # [02:23] <Hixie> so you say e.g.:
  133. # [02:23] <SamB> hmm, okay, perl
  134. # [02:24] <zewt> for(z=0; z < 10; ++z) ( (function() { for(x=0; x < width; ++x) { for(y=0; y < height; ++y) { return; } } })(); }
  135. # [02:24] <Hixie> file: while (...) { ...; line: while (...) { ...; next file; } }
  136. # [02:24] <zewt> looks shitty on one line, of course, and it's still a workaround, but it's not terrible
  137. # [02:24] <Hixie> or next line, or redo line, or last file, or whatever
  138. # [02:24] <Hixie> for all the various combinations you might want
  139. # [02:25] <Hixie> (this is one of the few things about perl that's actually a net good, even to readability, imho :-) )
  140. # [02:25] <SamB> so is JS in the same boat as Python here?
  141. # [02:26] <Hixie> js is like c and company here, i think, right?
  142. # [02:26] <Hixie> dunno what python's loop control looks like
  143. # [02:26] <TabAtkins> You can break a loop using labels in JS, but you can't continue one from a label.
  144. # [02:26] <Hixie> oh, cool, ok
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  146. # [02:26] <Hixie> so, in between
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  148. # [02:30] <SamB> Python doesn't have labels at all
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  153. # [02:38] <TabAtkins> Yeah, Python's annoying in that. They say "don't get yourself into situations where you have to break/continue from multiple loops up", but sometimes it happens and it's the clearest way to write!
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  155. # [02:38] <TabAtkins> And having to use flags to simulate the behavior is just dirty.
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  157. # [02:39] <zewt> i usually switch to a nested function before using a flag
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  162. # [02:43] <SamB> TabAtkins: I know!
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  164. # [02:44] <zewt> my current annoyed-at language is C#, where someone who thinks they know better than me tells me how to write code
  165. # [02:45] <zewt> re: prohibiting switch fall-through, because some idiot read a "considered harmful" rant and decided to make my decisions for me
  166. # [02:46] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the case against switch fall-through is against *default* fall-through.
  167. # [02:46] <SamB> yeah, there should be a "fallthrough" statement or something
  168. # [02:46] <TabAtkins> Just changing the default and having some way to indicate that you should fall through is obviously the right way.
  169. # [02:46] <SamB> there is probably only one reason Python does not suffer from the same thing though
  170. # [02:46] * ChrisMorgan contests the obviousness of that
  171. # [02:47] <zewt> well, python ... doesn't have switch
  172. # [02:47] <ChrisMorgan> And, for that matter, the truth of it.
  173. # [02:47] <SamB> zewt: yes, that's the reason
  174. # [02:47] <TabAtkins> zewt: Yes. which is also terrible.
  175. # [02:47] <TabAtkins> ChrisMorgan: I'll see your contestation, and raise you all the times I fell through accidentally because I forgot to say "break", and thus had a bug.
  176. # [02:48] <TabAtkins> I *rarely* want to fall-through on a switch. It's common per-switch, but rare per-case, I think.
  177. # [02:48] <ChrisMorgan> TabAtkins: I’m with C♯ on this—forbidding fallthrough altogether is entirely reasonable.
  178. # [02:48] <SamB> ChrisMorgan: you think it should require explicit goto insteaa?
  179. # [02:48] <TabAtkins> That just means duplication.
  180. # [02:48] <ChrisMorgan> SamB: not that either.
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  182. # [02:49] <zewt> if i'm trying to do a switch fallthrough, it's for a reason; the language needs to get out of my way unless there's some underlying structural reason why the language can't do it
  183. # [02:49] <ChrisMorgan> TabAtkins: normally there is not actually any basic need for fallthrough in the first place.
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  185. # [02:50] <SamB> well, it isn't all THAT much more likely than wanting to goto somewhere else, I guess ...
  186. # [02:50] <ChrisMorgan> zewt: in Rust, or for that matter *any* language with proper pattern matching, fallthrough in `match` branches would make no sense whatsoever.
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  188. # [02:50] * ChrisMorgan has never felt the slightest pang of remorse or yearning for fallthrough in Rust
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  190. # [02:50] <SamB> ChrisMorgan: I hope they have guards though
  191. # [02:51] <ChrisMorgan> SamB: to be sure, to be sure.
  192. # [02:51] <ChrisMorgan> All armed to the teeth! ;-)
  193. # [02:51] <SamB> I mean, conditions for the case matching at all
  194. # [02:51] <ChrisMorgan> To be sure, to be sure.
  195. # [02:51] <TabAtkins> ChrisMorgan: I see your attestation and raise you all the times in the CSS Syntax spec where I'm explicitly doing fall-through in my English-language switch statements. ^_^
  196. # [02:53] <ChrisMorgan> TabAtkins: I’m not familiar with your specific examples, but most of the ones that I imagine to be of the same nature are “if this is the case, follow these steps”, which does not need to be modelled as fall-through, though that is often one way of doing it (and not the most general, I might add).
  197. # [02:53] <ChrisMorgan> But hey—Swift uses pattern matching, so it *must* be right, huh?
  198. # [02:54] <TabAtkins> ChrisMorgan: No clue what Swift does, so shrug.
  199. # [02:55] <TabAtkins> I'm just talking about switch statements, which are indeed different from pattern matching.
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  201. # [02:55] <ChrisMorgan> Back on the topic of labels, the funny thing is that Rust supports labels on its `for` and `loop` loops, but not its `while` loops… a strange omission which I had fun with, https://github.com/mozilla/rust/issues/12643.
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  203. # [02:56] <ChrisMorgan> TabAtkins: I can’t speak much of Swift either, but at the theoretical level, switch statements, assuming no fall-through, provide a strict subset of the functionality of pattern matching.
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  205. # [02:56] <ChrisMorgan> Anyway, this is probably all moderately off-topic for #whatwg!
  206. # [02:57] <TabAtkins> It's the "subset" part that makes it different. If you're not extracting anything, just doing abbreviated testing (like normal switches do), then fallbacks make more sense, as a disjunction of cases.
  207. # [02:57] <TabAtkins> (Plus the occasional fun bit where you do some preliminary work in some cases and then fallthrough to the base-case to do more work.
  208. # [02:57] <TabAtkins> )
  209. # [02:58] <TabAtkins> (But that only works if you've only got a single type of prelim work to do, or if your multiple types are chained. If you have multiple parallel types of prelim work to do, you can't model it with fall-through.)
  210. # [03:00] <ChrisMorgan> `switch foo { bar: code1; baz: code2; break; default: code3; }` => `match foo { bar | baz => { if foo == bar { code1 } code2 }, _ => code3 }`. These should have the same performance characteristics when compiled.
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  215. # [03:13] <TabAtkins> Is it appropriate to use [SameObject] on an attribute which occasionally swaps out its underlying value?
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  217. # [03:13] <TabAtkins> But otherwise always returns the same object?
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  221. # [03:23] <TabAtkins> annevk: Do I need to use [Exposed] on events too? Or just normal interfaces?
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  226. # [03:33] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Did you mean to make the :target arrow also slightly tilted?
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  268. # [05:05] <SimonSapin> TabAtkins: for what it’s worth, I used a lot of pattern matching in rust-cssparser and never missed fall-through
  269. # [05:05] <SimonSapin> (but I do miss pattern matching a lot when going back to Python)
  270. # [05:07] <Hixie> TabAtkins: vaguely
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  272. # [05:17] <Hixie> ok i've tried to post this to es-discuss twice now
  273. # [05:17] <Hixie> and i get nothing back and it doesn't go to the list
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  275. # [05:17] <Hixie> i'm still subscribed...
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  286. # [05:53] <hemanth> jorendorff, If you are around, just posted https://bugs.ecmascript.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2981
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  301. # [07:20] <annevk> TabAtkins: events are normal interfaces
  302. # [07:20] <annevk> Domenic: I mean you want to store these objects some storage API
  303. # [07:23] <TabAtkins> annevk: kk
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  315. # [08:14] <Domenic> annevk: yeah, you should generally just read them to the end and store the serialized version, or alternately stream them into a store
  316. # [08:14] <annevk> Hixie: another infographic I'd be interested in is one explaining the relationship of the higher-level object model; how browsing contexts relate to globals, relate to documents, relate to cross-origin Location objects, relate to settings objects, etc.
  317. # [08:15] <Hixie> that would be one hell of an inforgraphic
  318. # [08:15] <annevk> Domenic: my problem is that a developer might want to read data and store the Response
  319. # [08:15] <annevk> Domenic: currently that's not feasible
  320. # [08:15] <annevk> Hixie: yeah :(
  321. # [08:16] <annevk> Hixie: I still find it hard to follow at times what of the various objects I should look at from script and what I can reach from there
  322. # [08:18] <Hixie> annevk: http://junkyard.damowmow.com/542
  323. # [08:18] <Domenic> annevk: Ah yeah makes sense. Not sure how it would work generally for streams, since e.g. their content can be nondeterministic. (a Response body stream could be the product of the particular time on the server, or of a particular interaction between client and server, for example.) But maybe in this particular case we could define that it reads them to end
  324. # [08:18] <Domenic> at the time of storage, and then when it gets revived from cache it becomes a sort of "constant stream."
  325. # [08:18] <Hixie> HTH
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  327. # [08:18] <annevk> Hixie: have a good night :p
  328. # [08:18] <Hixie> :-P
  329. # [08:19] <annevk> Domenic: okay, and if you wanted to read it to inspect it and store the object you'd have to tee it?
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  331. # [08:21] <Domenic> annevk: in general yes, if you want to read without consuming you need to tee
  332. # [08:21] <annevk> Domenic: how do you distinguish between an empty stream and a depleted stream?
  333. # [08:22] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@98.234.191.242) (Quit: weinig)
  334. # [08:22] <Domenic> annevk: good question, might not get this right off the top of my head, but I think: depleted will be "closed" already; empty will start "open" until you try to wait for more data to come in, at which point it becomes "closed"
  335. # [08:23] <annevk> Domenic: ah okay, closed vs open is nice terminology
  336. # [08:23] <annevk> Domenic: I should probably update my abstract stream description in Encoding to use that
  337. # [08:23] * Joins: jeffreyatw (~jeffreyat@199-188-192-248.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net)
  338. # [08:24] <Domenic> And I should probably update the "model" section to have more useful terminology of the sort. Will do at work tomorrow! :)
  339. # [08:26] <annevk> Yay model
  340. # [08:26] <krit> annevk: Hi
  341. # [08:26] <annevk> Yeah we need a model if we want to do this right. Rewrite all the things in terms of that and then slowly open them up to APIs
  342. # [08:26] <annevk> krit: morning
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  344. # [08:27] <krit> annevk: Checked and would be available next week. Would you be able to look at SVG sec and have time?
  345. # [08:28] <annevk> krit: yes, let's do it
  346. # [08:28] <krit> annevk: cool. bringing kids to school usually. So am available from 9AM to whatever
  347. # [08:29] <annevk> krit: same here, this is really early for me
  348. # [08:29] <krit> annevk: bringing kids to school? :)
  349. # [08:29] <Hixie> huh
  350. # [08:29] <annevk> krit: I was about to correct that bit
  351. # [08:29] <Hixie> "in select" mode, <select> doesn't check if a select is in scope
  352. # [08:30] <Hixie> i think, per spec, <select>.innerHTML = '<select>' should crash
  353. # [08:30] <Hixie> am i crazy?
  354. # [08:31] <annevk> Hixie: the note "It just gets treated like an end tag." does make it seem like there's a bug there
  355. # [08:32] <annevk> Hixie: although "Pop elements from the stack of open elements until a select element has been popped from the stack." probably does not cause a crash
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  357. # [08:32] <Hixie> you pop all the elements, then try to pop the stack when it's empty
  358. # [08:33] <Hixie> it'll either hang or crash or something bad will happen
  359. # [08:33] * Hixie fixes the spec
  360. # [08:34] <annevk> Hixie: wouldn't you null-check the stack?
  361. # [08:34] <Hixie> and do what?
  362. # [08:34] <Hixie> i mean normally you shouldn't need to
  363. # [08:34] <Hixie> the parser isn't going to pop all the nodes off
  364. # [08:36] <annevk> Not sure, but e.g. in JavaScript [].pop() doesn't kill you
  365. # [08:36] <Hixie> well sure, in _javascript_
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  367. # [08:37] <Hixie> you can typo your variables names and js isn't going to bat an eye
  368. # [08:37] <annevk> I love that you can write <select></select> with one character less though
  369. # [08:37] <annevk> Didn't know that
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  371. # [08:40] <Domenic> annevk: TabAtkins: IMO "await a stable state" is more confusing than "queue a microtask," especially when appearing nearby "queue a task"...
  372. # [08:41] <Hixie> await a stable state makes the spec so much easier to read
  373. # [08:43] <Domenic> disagree
  374. # [08:44] <Hixie> it describes the algorithm as one straightforward algorithm, with the complicated timing details present but not in the way
  375. # [08:44] <TabAtkins> I just did what Hixie told me to do.
  376. # [08:45] <annevk> Hixie: why didn't you group the <dt>s?
  377. # [08:45] <Hixie> ?
  378. # [08:45] <annevk> Hixie: with http://html5.org/r/8667
  379. # [08:45] <Hixie> context?
  380. # [08:45] <Hixie> they're not identical
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  382. # [08:45] <annevk> Ah, parse error
  383. # [08:46] <Hixie> three clauses, three slightly different requirements
  384. # [08:46] <Hixie> ok i can now parse html5lib-tests/tree-construction/tests7.dat tests 1..14
  385. # [08:46] <Hixie> time for bed
  386. # [08:46] <Hixie> nn
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  414. # [10:29] <annevk> So my bank turned ü into ³
  415. # [10:34] <annevk> Both however have stable positions in single byte encodings
  416. # [10:34] <Ms2ger> How about in ebcdic?
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  419. # [10:43] <annevk> Ms2ger: yeah I guess
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  421. # [10:47] <annevk> Ms2ger: can't find a code page where that would be the case
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  423. # [11:04] * darobin wonders if there's a hack to make annevk rich out of this
  424. # [11:05] <darobin> "I'd like to withdraw 99ü, please"
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  426. # [11:07] <annevk> Why would http://www.techmania.ch/details.aspx?hersteller=Dell&produkt=EUCORD_CLOF be CHF 27?!
  427. # [11:07] <annevk> darobin: heh
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  429. # [11:09] <annevk> It's not even the right cable
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  457. # [13:00] <krit> Hixie: All constructors of Path2D seem to have the old name still: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#dom-path2d-withdata
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  535. # [16:46] <annevk> So the inconsistent policies between CORS and UA-defined features is annoying.
  536. # [16:47] <annevk> Why can we have Last-Event-ID, Ping-To, and Ping-From without preflight if they are done by the UA, but not if they are done by the developer?
  537. # [16:48] <annevk> These are the only headers that require some kind of separation between developer set headers, and UA set headers
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  576. # [17:59] <annevk> hsivonen: did you see Unicode is about to introduce 2800 more code points?
  577. # [17:59] <annevk> JakeA: any insights as to how to best address that?
  578. # [17:59] <annevk> Hixie: you maybe?
  579. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> annevk: what are the new code points? emoji?
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  581. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> annevk: you have a link to an announcement or hwatever?
  582. # [18:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: @unicode
  583. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> thanks
  584. # [18:01] <annevk> MikeSmith: no pointer seems to be included
  585. # [18:02] <MikeSmith> yeah
  586. # [18:03] <MikeSmith> annevk: don't UAs already handle most of these?
  587. # [18:03] <annevk> MikeSmith: I guess I should have said new assigned code points or whatever the term is
  588. # [18:05] <MikeSmith> "Duployan shorthand & letters used in Teuthonista & other transcriptional systems"
  589. # [18:05] <annevk> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/Unicode-7.0/ has details it seems
  590. # [18:05] * MikeSmith looks
  591. # [18:05] <annevk> It now includes Linear A
  592. # [18:06] <annevk> Lars Thomas can be proud
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  594. # [18:08] <jgraham> Linear A, Linear B and Carakan? Awesome
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  596. # [18:08] <annevk> Just Linear A
  597. # [18:08] <annevk> Now I wonder about Futhark
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  599. # [18:10] <jgraham> Linear B and Carakan are already in Unicode
  600. # [18:10] <jgraham> I think
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  602. # [18:14] <annevk> Futhark is too
  603. # [18:16] <jgraham> So we have a full house?
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  605. # [18:17] <annevk> I guess we can go shopping
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  622. # [18:40] <Hixie> annevk: why would we need to address anything?
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  624. # [18:41] <annevk> Hixie: I want to do away with author headers vs headers as it doesn't make much sense if you actually expose the request as an object
  625. # [18:41] <annevk> Hixie: and at that point the only problematic header is Last-Event-ID (and maybe Ping-To and Ping-From)
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  627. # [18:42] <annevk> Hixie: as in headers that a spec has set that don't cause a preflight whereas they would if someone set them in some other context
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  629. # [18:43] <annevk> Hixie: this becomes icky at the point where you'd add the ability to add headers to an EventSource fetch
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  632. # [18:45] * Hixie is confused
  633. # [18:45] <Hixie> how is unicode characters related to http headers
  634. # [18:45] <Hixie> i think i missed something
  635. # [18:45] <Ms2ger> Hixie, only temporally in this channel
  636. # [18:46] <Ms2ger> What you're missing is a <hr> between the conversations
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  642. # [18:53] <annevk> Hixie: skip the line addressed at hsivonen, it's before that
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  644. # [18:54] <Hixie> ah, i see
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  646. # [18:54] <Hixie> i don't know why they're the only ones. Seems like their situation would be pretty common.
  647. # [18:54] <Hixie> it's attributes that are harmless when the server sets them, but not harmless when the author sets them.
  648. # [18:54] <Hixie> er
  649. # [18:54] * Quits: shannonmoeller (~shannonmo@nat.sierrabravo.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  650. # [18:54] <Hixie> when the client sets them
  651. # [18:54] <Hixie> not server
  652. # [18:54] <Hixie> and headers
  653. # [18:54] * Joins: shannonmoeller (~shannonmo@nat.sierrabravo.net)
  654. # [18:54] <Hixie> not attributes
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  656. # [18:55] <annevk> but they're not so restricted that authors can never set them?
  657. # [18:56] <Hixie> right
  658. # [18:56] <Hixie> i mean, if the server wants to use them, and is willing to preflight it, who cares
  659. # [18:56] <annevk> The problem with these is that they're in the middle. Host is client-only. Last-Event-ID however, when set by the client is preflightless. When set by authors comes with a preflight.
  660. # [18:56] <Hixie> right
  661. # [18:56] <Hixie> Host is not something that you could opt into allowing the client to send
  662. # [18:56] <annevk> And if we want to keep that we would need some kind of flag.
  663. # [18:56] <Hixie> since the entire secutity system depends on it
  664. # [18:56] <Hixie> security
  665. # [18:57] <annevk> E.g. what if EventSource starts allowing you to set headers?
  666. # [18:57] <annevk> Maybe I should just assume that it doesn't
  667. # [18:57] <Hixie> i'm neck-deep in the html parser right now, you're not going to get any sympathy from me if you're looking for a way to keep things simple for yourself :-)
  668. # [18:57] <annevk> I'm trying to keep APIs simple for developers
  669. # [18:57] * Joins: ivan\ (~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001)
  670. # [18:57] <Hixie> if EventSource lets you set headers, then what?
  671. # [18:57] <annevk> And trying to predict future growth of various APIs and how that would affect the system
  672. # [18:58] <Hixie> i don't see the problem
  673. # [18:58] <Hixie> i'm actually really surprised to hear there's only three headers like this
  674. # [18:58] <Hixie> i'd have thought there'd be more
  675. # [18:58] <annevk> If EventSource lets you set headers the granularity we need is on the level of headers. E.g. a header gets an additional flag about it being set by a spec rather than an author
  676. # [18:59] <Hixie> what spec is this in
  677. # [18:59] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  678. # [18:59] <Hixie> i cant' find last-event-id in fetch.spec and xhr.spec
  679. # [18:59] <Hixie> can't
  680. # [18:59] <annevk> It's in your spec
  681. # [18:59] <annevk> You are creating my problems :-)
  682. # [18:59] <Hixie> i don't see anything to do with cors with last-event-id
  683. # [19:00] <annevk> EventSource can do CORS and can include a custom header unlike other headers, Last-Event-ID
  684. # [19:00] <Hixie> in the html spec
  685. # [19:00] <annevk> However, because this header is set by the UA, there's no preflight
  686. # [19:01] <annevk> What Fetch sees is just a Request with a header list attached with Last-Event-ID in it
  687. # [19:01] <annevk> But now it has to know this is UA-set so it won't treat it as not a simple header
  688. # [19:01] <annevk> (As otherwise it would cause a preflight)
  689. # [19:01] <Hixie> what am i missing?
  690. # [19:02] <Hixie> er, ignore last line
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  692. # [19:02] <Hixie> hasn't this worked for forever?
  693. # [19:02] <Hixie> i don't understand what's new here that this has suddenly come up
  694. # [19:02] <annevk> Yeah kinda, because I separated author headers and headers set by specs
  695. # [19:03] <annevk> However, that's a silly model and would create an ugly API
  696. # [19:03] <annevk> So I'm trying to come up with something better
  697. # [19:03] <rektide> hi. does anyone know of a way i can smoothly zoom into a page?
  698. # [19:04] <rektide> i spent a day wiring up a nice animated scale() transform
  699. # [19:05] <rektide> i think thinks went wrong when i tried keeping the center of the page as the zoom target by using requestAnimationFrame to adjust the scrollTop()
  700. # [19:05] <annevk> Solutions I see. We add a flag "API lets devs control headers". Set by fetch() and XMLHttpRequest, in all other cases we trust the specs to do the right thing
  701. # [19:05] <annevk> That's 1)
  702. # [19:05] <Hixie> annevk: i don't understand why the api is ugly?
  703. # [19:05] <annevk> 2) We add these headers to simple headers.
  704. # [19:05] <rektide> the scrollTop seems to cause my requestAnimationFrame to only trigger every 33ms
  705. # [19:06] <annevk> 3) We add an additional member to header about whether it's privileged or not
  706. # [19:06] <Hixie> annevk: there's a difference between a header set by the UA, and a header set via an API, right? we already have that in XHR.
  707. # [19:06] <rektide> and i still have some rather sincere jank. anyways, thanks.
  708. # [19:06] <Hixie> annevk: e.g. in XHR the UA sets Host, but the author sets X-Foo via the API
  709. # [19:06] <annevk> Hixie: I checked, XHR doesn't set any headers itself
  710. # [19:06] <annevk> Hixie: no, the network layer sets those headers
  711. # [19:06] <annevk> Hixie: i.e. Fetch, way after the CORS check
  712. # [19:07] <Hixie> sure but that's your problem at the spec level
  713. # [19:07] <Hixie> the author doesn't care about that
  714. # [19:07] <Hixie> from the author's perspective, there's UA-set headers, and author-set headers
  715. # [19:07] <Hixie> this is true in all APIs that let you set headers
  716. # [19:07] <annevk> No, it matters as to what's exposed in service workers
  717. # [19:08] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  718. # [19:08] <annevk> E.g. event.request.headers will not contain Host as that is set by the network layer
  719. # [19:08] <Hixie> that's odd
  720. # [19:08] <annevk> It seemed kind of natural to me
  721. # [19:08] <Hixie> but i guess you'd need to exclude some headers for auth
  722. # [19:08] <Hixie> Host is harmless, but others might not be
  723. # [19:08] <annevk> However, Host again would not be a problem either way, as authors cannot set it
  724. # [19:09] <SamB> Hixie: if the header is added by something that hasn't seen the request at all yet, it's obviously not going to be there yet, no?
  725. # [19:09] <Hixie> seems like you'd need a whitelist for what headers to expose
  726. # [19:09] <annevk> Hixie: yeah that is covered too
  727. # [19:09] <Hixie> SamB: i don't understand what you are asking
  728. # [19:09] <Hixie> annevk: is there somewhere i can read to see what service workers see?
  729. # [19:10] <annevk> Hixie: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#fetching
  730. # [19:10] <SamB> I guess Host *could* get added at an earlier layer but seeing as it's mostly there because the GET doesn't mention the hostname ...
  731. # [19:10] <annevk> Hixie: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-http-fetch passes the request into service workers
  732. # [19:10] <annevk> Hixie: in step 8
  733. # [19:11] <Hixie> (what's "Mixed Content"?)
  734. # [19:11] <annevk> Hixie: https://w3c.github.io/webappsec/specs/mixedcontent/
  735. # [19:11] <annevk> Those hooks are WIP
  736. # [19:12] <Hixie> oh that kind of mixed content
  737. # [19:12] <Hixie> ok
  738. # [19:13] <Hixie> so https://slightlyoff.github.io/ServiceWorker/spec/service_worker/#request-interface is what the service worker gets?
  739. # [19:13] <annevk> Hixie: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#request is the new idea
  740. # [19:14] <rektide> are there polyfills to host fetch on XHR? or to provide XHR on fetch?
  741. # [19:15] <Hixie> annevk: man, i'm sure glad you're dealing with this and not me
  742. # [19:15] <Hixie> annevk: so the question is basically, which headers to expose there?
  743. # [19:15] <rektide> or against node's http.createClient or mikeal's request?
  744. # [19:15] <Hixie> annevk: or are the headers mutable?
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  746. # [19:16] <Hixie> annevk: i think it'd be fine to have some headers be immutable in that API. Doesn't make the API surface particularly hard to understand, and it lets you include things like Host and Cache-Control.
  747. # [19:16] <Hixie> annevk: you could even include auth-related headers, and make them unreadable too
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  749. # [19:16] <Hixie> annevk: so that headers would be in three modes: mutable, immutable, protected
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  751. # [19:18] <annevk> Hixie: yeah there's some of that for response headers
  752. # [19:18] <annevk> Hixie: the main problem I have right now is the one I mentioned earlier
  753. # [19:18] <Hixie> why does what i described not solve that problem?
  754. # [19:18] <annevk> Fetch (the spec) takes a request which takes a set of a headers
  755. # [19:18] <Hixie> sure. The spec will need to have per-header metadata.
  756. # [19:19] <annevk> Those headers can trigger a preflight
  757. # [19:19] <annevk> Yeah so currently I don't need per-header metadata. The immutable and protected headers can just be lists that are checked on set and get
  758. # [19:20] <annevk> The problem is Last-Event-ID
  759. # [19:20] <annevk> Which triggers a preflight if it wasn't spec-sanctioned
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  761. # [19:20] <Hixie> so you add the metadata
  762. # [19:20] <Hixie> what's the problem
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  764. # [19:21] <Hixie> i'm really surprised these are the only headers in this mode
  765. # [19:21] <annevk> I think Last-Event-ID is actually the only one, since <a> doesn't do CORS
  766. # [19:21] <annevk> Or maybe <a ping download> does CORS?
  767. # [19:21] <Hixie> seems like e.g. Accept-Charset should be on this list too
  768. # [19:21] <annevk> Accept-Charset is not a header anymore
  769. # [19:21] <Hixie> and DNT
  770. # [19:22] <annevk> DNT is like Host
  771. # [19:22] <Hixie> and User-Agent
  772. # [19:22] <annevk> User-Agent is like Host
  773. # [19:22] <Hixie> how so
  774. # [19:22] <Hixie> i mean, it's on the same list today
  775. # [19:22] <annevk> Hixie: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#forbidden-author-header-name
  776. # [19:22] <Hixie> i'm saying it should be treated like Last-Event-ID
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  778. # [19:22] <annevk> No, they are more restricted
  779. # [19:22] <Hixie> if the UA sets it on a UA request, then sure, it shouldn't be mutated
  780. # [19:23] <Hixie> but why would we not allow it to be set on an XHR request, say
  781. # [19:23] <annevk> because we decided we wouldn't back in 2006
  782. # [19:23] <Hixie> well if that's an argument, then why does the same argument not apply to Last-Event-ID?
  783. # [19:24] <annevk> well I asked you if we should just add Last-Event-Id to that list
  784. # [19:24] <Hixie> right but we decided not to in 200x, right? :-)
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  786. # [19:25] <Hixie> adding per-header metadata seems pretty simple to me.
  787. # [19:25] <Hixie> (it's not really per-header, it's more just two lists of headers)
  788. # [19:25] <Hixie> (two lists that browsers probably already have somewhere, to some extent)
  789. # [19:26] <Hixie> (since some attributes are going to be mutable in this API and some aren't, regardless of what we do here)
  790. # [19:27] <SamB> so ... older browsers are going to allow scripts to do whatever they like with those headers, or?
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  792. # [19:28] <Hixie> older browsers don't have service workers at all
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  796. # [19:39] <boogyman> Hixie: where do I go to report a broken link on the w3.org spec?
  797. # [19:39] <boogyman> Hixie: w3c spec > w3c wiki
  798. # [19:40] <Hixie> on a wiki? just fix it...
  799. # [19:40] <boogyman> I am unaware of what the link is attempting to reference. "checkbox state"
  800. # [19:41] <boogyman> I can make an educated that this may be a reference to the "checked" state, but the phrase is ambiguous.
  801. # [19:41] <Hixie> ah
  802. # [19:41] <Hixie> dunno
  803. # [19:42] * Hixie doesn't much care for w3c things
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  806. # [19:50] <Hixie> so, anyone know why posts i send to es-discuss might be dropping on the floor?
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  808. # [19:51] <marcosc_> Hixie: "use strict"?
  809. # [19:51] <marcosc_> :)
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  811. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> heh
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  823. # [20:03] <Domenic> Hixie: it finally arrived
  824. # [20:03] <annevk> It can't be a list. Say we put Last-Event-ID on that list. And someone sets it through XMLHttpRequest. How does Fetch know what Last-Event-ID means?
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  827. # [20:05] <Hixie> Domenic: i just resent it
  828. # [20:05] <Hixie> Domenic: from a different mail client
  829. # [20:08] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: it’s not like you to resent anything.
  830. # [20:09] <SamB> *groan*
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  865. # [21:13] <JakeA> annevk: will catch up tomorrow morning
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  897. # [22:03] <rektide> i think i found an approach for zooming content in and out smoothly
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  900. # [22:04] <rektide> i tried using requestAnimationFrame to scrollTop(), but that's janky, has some egregious state tracking, and runs half FPS
  901. # [22:05] <rektide> originally i'd thought i needed to dynamically adjust transform-origin, but that would've required it's own janktacular state tracking to keep updating the origin to the center of the page as the user scrolls without shifting
  902. # [22:05] <rektide> guessing the only viable approach is the use translate(), which for some reason hadn't occured to me
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  904. # [22:06] <caitp> you will of course report your findings and have them published in a peer-reviewed journal
  905. # [22:07] <rektide> ya'll are welcome to peer review my google+ writeup when it goes up
  906. # [22:07] <caitp> nice
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  910. # [22:09] <rektide> i also had to use huge negative margins to trim the zoomed out content's real size down to it's transformed size, which is what made me think the transform-origin was going to be problematic: it'd mean updating those margins as the origin moved. otoh, i only really need to set the transform-origin right before zoom starts, and so long as i can reupdate the origin, re-trim the margins, and set the scrollTop() exactly right, it might not be too bad
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  925. # [22:28] <zewt> sometimes you'll get much smoother scrolling with translate3d
  926. # [22:28] <TabAtkins> annevk: Do @font-face rules in documents expose those fonts to other documents in the same window? I didn't think they did, which is why I did document.fonts, but if they are, I can see the argument for shifting to CSS.fonts.
  927. # [22:29] <zewt> depending on what the content is
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  952. # [22:41] <rektide> the biggest suck of all is that "zoom" ends up with thousands of millions of results for zooming an image in and out
  953. # [22:42] <rektide> there's absolutely no hope of ever finding any useful information on how to zoom content in or out, which is only slightly bleaker than my outlook for ever getting this right myself by munging carefully with scale() translate(), negative margin, and translate origin
  954. # [22:43] <caitp> to be fair, isn't that usually the client's job?
  955. # [22:43] <caitp> spread fingers apart on the trackpad, notice that text and images scale up
  956. # [22:44] <rektide> it doesn't seem like a use case that the web should be exempt from actually doing
  957. # [22:44] <rektide> just because there is a use case where the browser can do some kind of job at it
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  959. # [22:45] <caitp> some people would say the platform already kind of does too much, it's a silly level of scope creep
  960. # [22:46] <rektide> yes, you can't imagine wanting to change the size of a thing, clearly, definitely: should be banned, scope creep.
  961. # [22:46] <caitp> now now, I'm not taking sides in that argument =)
  962. # [22:47] <rektide> scope creep is my weak-sauce hacked out implementations. :(
  963. # [22:48] <annevk> TabAtkins: I suspect with HTML imports they would
  964. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Ah, hm. Yeah.
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The end :)