/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-06-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 17 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Domenic: So it sounds like you were encountering unicode errors in Bikeshed?
  4. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> That's very strange, because unicode *definitely* works when run on linux and mac.
  5. # [00:10] * Quits: bholley_ (~bholley@corp.mtv2.mozilla.com) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  6. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> So there's something wrong with your setup on Windows that is screwing things up.
  7. # [00:11] <Domenic> TabAtkins: I was actually using just the curl version
  8. # [00:11] <Domenic> albeit, via Windows curl...
  9. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> There's something getting fucked up in the middle, then.
  10. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> Hmmmm
  11. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> (The apostrophe thing is because Bikeshed automagically converts apostrophes to curly aposes when it can.)
  12. # [00:12] <Domenic> Totally willing to believe it's Windows' fault
  13. # [00:12] <Domenic> well, it shouldn't do that inside comments ;)
  14. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> Possibly, but it's done as a source-level hack, before parsing occurs.
  15. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> And comments are stripped out, too, so shrug.
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  18. # [00:38] <zewt> close-quote-as-apostrophe is terrible
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  20. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Tell that to people who care about typography.
  21. # [00:39] <zewt> quotes are quotes, apostrophes are apostrophes, and ' is apostrophe
  22. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> Or a quote.
  23. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> You know, depending.
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  25. # [00:39] <zewt> close-single-quote is a quote; using it as an apostrophe is just making *it* ambiguous too
  26. # [00:42] <zewt> it's absurd that unicode introduced a set of characters that are unambiguously quotes, then proceeded to recommend that everyone use them as ... apostrophes
  27. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> Unicode defines it as the preferred form.
  28. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> So shrug.
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  38. # [00:46] <Domenic> Hixie: bad security cert on https://resources.whatwg.org/logo-streams.svg ?
  39. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> If you follow the link, there's a server error anyway.
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  41. # [00:47] <Domenic> i was too scared of the hax0rs
  42. # [00:48] <Domenic> My Travis auto-build is working pretty awesomely though
  43. # [00:48] <Hixie> Domenic: there's no cert at all, is there?
  44. # [00:49] <Domenic> Hixie: it says there's one issued to sni.dreamhost.com
  45. # [00:49] <Hixie> odd
  46. # [00:49] <Hixie> i'm surprised there's even an https server at that domain
  47. # [00:49] <Domenic> I kind of thought we fixed this somewhat recently and got resources working over https
  48. # [00:49] <Hixie> oh
  49. # [00:49] <Hixie> of course there is
  50. # [00:49] <Hixie> it's the same IP as whatwg.org
  51. # [00:49] <Hixie> we got a cert for www.whatwg.org for one year
  52. # [00:49] <Domenic> gtg grab food before kitchen closes, bbiab
  53. # [00:49] <zewt> missing intermediate CAs?
  54. # [00:50] <Hixie> but didn't get any other certs
  55. # [00:50] <Hixie> and i don't expect to renew the one in one year, either, given how much of a pain that was
  56. # [00:50] <Hixie> if anyone wants to take charge on this, be my guest :-)
  57. # [00:50] <zewt> it's pretty simple, but it's definitely lame to have to pay the SSL Tax, heh
  58. # [00:51] <Hixie> i found some free provider
  59. # [00:52] <zewt> the only free certificate providers i tried were a huge pain in the ass
  60. # [00:52] <Hixie> see above. :-)
  61. # [00:52] <zewt> but that's the fault of the shtity provider
  62. # [00:52] <zewt> also shitty
  63. # [00:53] <zewt> i think the one I tried wanted users to create client certificates to log in and didn't have passwords at all, which is a nice option but given the actual level of security certs provide, absurd to require
  64. # [00:54] <Hixie> yep, that's the one
  65. # [00:54] <zewt> yeah. better off just paying the $20 or whatever on a real provider
  66. # [00:55] <Hixie> send me the $20 and i'll get right on that :-)
  67. # [00:55] <Hixie> i'm already paying plenty to actually host the server
  68. # [00:55] <Hixie> that seems to me to have a higher benefit-per-dollar ratio
  69. # [00:56] <zewt> my SSL cert off of godaddy was $13/year for a 5-year
  70. # [00:56] <zewt> (single domain, not wildcard; those are the ones they want stupid money for)
  71. # [00:56] * Hixie mumbles something about "." and ".." messing up his "is this directory empty" logic
  72. # [00:57] <Hixie> given how many domains whatwg.org has, it might be best to go wildcard
  73. # [00:57] <zewt> of course, the "xhr.spec.whatwg.org" hostname layout will screw you there, too
  74. # [00:58] <zewt> never use hostnames more than one deep
  75. # [00:58] <Hixie> it's not really clear to me why we care about encryption here anyway
  76. # [00:58] <Hixie> they're specs
  77. # [00:58] <Hixie> we _want_ people to read them
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  79. # [00:58] <Hixie> and it's not like some encryption is going to stop people from inserting random crap into them
  80. # [00:58] <Hixie> the w3c already does that in broad daylight
  81. # [00:58] <zewt> heh godaddy wants $300/year for wildcard
  82. # [00:59] <zewt> (but they also want $70/year for regular--you have to search out coupon codes to get the real prices, I guess there's no avoiding some form of stupid crap)
  83. # [01:00] <zewt> which is probably why I renewed for 5 years, I probably found a good coupon (also it means I don't have to screw with it for a long time)
  84. # [01:01] <zewt> i suppose it's unlikely that somebody would bother initiating an MITM attack on whatwg.org that randomly changes the word "must" to "should"
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  86. # [01:01] <Hixie> not only is it unlikely, it'd be pretty hilarious
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  93. # [01:13] <Hixie> hm
  94. # [01:13] <Hixie> doing those commits and stuff seems to have removed some of the changes from my local copy
  95. # [01:14] <Hixie> TabAtkins: is there some way to fetch all the changes back somehow?
  96. # [01:14] <Hixie> i'm not sure i even know what question i should be asking
  97. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Hixie: You probably ruined everything at some point, so... no.
  98. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> But... maybe.
  99. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Probably no.
  100. # [01:15] <Hixie> it ssays i'm "ahead by two commits"
  101. # [01:15] <Hixie> is there some way to see what those are?
  102. # [01:15] <Hixie> ("it" being sgit status)
  103. # [01:15] <Hixie> git
  104. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> That means you've got two commits more than your remote repo.
  105. # [01:15] <jgraham> git log @{u}..
  106. # [01:16] <TabAtkins> I have no idea what that means.
  107. # [01:16] <jgraham> @{u} is short for @{upstream}
  108. # [01:16] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@209.49.73.82) (Quit: Snuggling with the puppies)
  109. # [01:16] <jgraham> Which is the upstream branch that the current branch is tracking
  110. # [01:16] <Hixie> how do i get a diff though?
  111. # [01:16] <jgraham> git dif @{u}..
  112. # [01:16] <jgraham> *diff
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  114. # [01:16] <Hixie> that didn't show me anything
  115. # [01:16] <Hixie> (i tried that)
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  118. # [01:17] <Hixie> the log gives two checkins from march
  119. # [01:17] <Hixie> which seems unlikely?
  120. # [01:17] <jgraham> Well what does git show HEAD show?
  121. # [01:17] <Hixie> it gives a commit id
  122. # [01:17] <Hixie> and a couple of merge ids
  123. # [01:17] <Hixie> and then says me, and march
  124. # [01:18] <Hixie> no idea what to do with that
  125. # [01:18] <jgraham> You have a merge in your history? That sounds pretty odd
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  128. # [01:19] <Hixie> it's the way that git diff gives no content that baffles me
  129. # [01:19] <caitp> what is the git diff command you're using?
  130. # [01:20] <caitp> just git diff BASE HEAD?
  131. # [01:20] <Hixie> git diff <blabla> where blabla is the id of any of the last three checkins in git log
  132. # [01:20] <Hixie> git diff BASE HEAD says "fatal: ambiguous argument 'BASE': unknown revision or path not in the working tree"
  133. # [01:21] <caitp> I should have said <BASE>
  134. # [01:21] <caitp> and <HEAD>, like, the base revision and the head revision you want to check against it
  135. # [01:23] <Hixie> assuming these commits were just me messing about, and are in fact empty
  136. # [01:23] <jgraham> Hixie: If it's a merge commit and there are no conflicts there wouldn't be any
  137. # [01:23] <Hixie> how do i throw them away and just be at tip of tree?
  138. # [01:23] <Hixie> i just want to be at whatever html5lib is, then i want to pull in all my changes i uploaded earlier
  139. # [01:24] <Domenic> <Hixie> the w3c already does that in broad daylight // literal lol'ing happened
  140. # [01:26] * Joins: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@89.17.128.127)
  141. # [01:26] <jgraham> Hixie: You have just seperated out all your changes into seperate branches
  142. # [01:26] <Hixie> yes
  143. # [01:27] <jgraham> It's not terribly easy to get into a state where you have the changes from all of those branches at the same time
  144. # [01:27] <jgraham> I mean you can
  145. # [01:27] <jgraham> But you probably don't want to
  146. # [01:27] <Hixie> my code won't compile until i do...
  147. # [01:27] <Hixie> well, it'll compile, but it won't pass its tests
  148. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> You really want to wait until they're accepted, then just pull the main repo again.
  149. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> That'll have everything in it at that point.
  150. # [01:28] <Hixie> i really want to run my code right now :-)
  151. # [01:28] <Hixie> i presumably have these branches locally
  152. # [01:28] <Hixie> i wonder if i can stash each one and pop it on my main branch
  153. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> Nothing to stash, as they're all committed up.
  154. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> You can make a separate branch, rebase all the other branches over it. That might work?
  155. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> Or just merge them all, possibly simpler.
  156. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> (Merge on a separate branch.)
  157. # [01:29] <jgraham> You can make a branch and cherry-pick all the changes onto it
  158. # [01:29] <Hixie> no idea what "rebase" means, but ok?
  159. # [01:29] <caitp> rebase is fun, you'll love it
  160. # [01:30] <jgraham> Don't try to use rebase
  161. # [01:30] <caitp> haha
  162. # [01:30] <caitp> aw.
  163. # [01:30] <jgraham> It's an awesome tool, but not what you want in this case
  164. # [01:30] <Hixie> how do i find a list of all my branches?
  165. # [01:30] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@209.49.73.82) (Quit: Snuggling with the puppies)
  166. # [01:30] <jgraham> git branch
  167. # [01:30] <jgraham> then create a new branch
  168. # [01:30] <caitp> git branch -a or -v, to list branches
  169. # [01:30] <jgraham> git checkout -b all_hixie_changes origin/master
  170. # [01:30] <jgraham> Just git branch in this case
  171. # [01:31] <caitp> ah I guess branch on its own does list them, without remotes
  172. # [01:31] <jgraham> (the second argument to git checkout means that the branch starts off at origin/master)
  173. # [01:31] <jgraham> And then for each branch that you have created
  174. # [01:31] <jgraham> git cherry-pick my_other_branch_name
  175. # [01:32] <jgraham> Which will take the topmost commit from the other branch and put it onto your combined branch
  176. # [01:32] <Hixie> cool, thanks
  177. # [01:32] <jgraham> I am assuming that there is only one commit on each of the other branches
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  179. # [01:32] <Hixie> let's assume that for now
  180. # [01:33] * jgraham -> slep
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  182. # [01:33] <jgraham> *sleep
  183. # [01:33] <Hixie> nn!
  184. # [01:33] <jgraham> Hixie: I strongly recommend reading something that explains the git data model
  185. # [01:33] <Hixie> and thanks for the help
  186. # [01:33] <Hixie> the data model isn't really the source of my confusion
  187. # [01:33] <jgraham> Once you basically understand that everything becomes much simpler
  188. # [01:33] <caitp> the workflow?
  189. # [01:33] <Hixie> i mean, i get the model, it's the just UI for manipulating the model makes no sense to me
  190. # [01:33] <caitp> yeah
  191. # [01:34] <jgraham> My experience is once you understand the data model the manipulation of it makes a lot more sense
  192. # [01:34] <Hixie> you use IDs here, branches there, weird punctuation in the other place, or arguments, all depending on... some black magic logic
  193. # [01:34] <Hixie> i mean why "origin" but "@{u}" ?
  194. # [01:34] <jgraham> http://wildlyinaccurate.com/a-hackers-guide-to-git
  195. # [01:34] <Hixie> instead of @{o} and @{u} or origin and upstream?
  196. # [01:35] <jgraham> Probably not the best guide, but I saw it recently and it
  197. # [01:35] <jgraham> 's not inaccurate
  198. # [01:35] <Hixie> and fundamentally imho it's just over-engineered. but then i don't want distributed version control...
  199. # [01:36] <zewt> i have no idea what @{u} is and i've used git for a couple years now
  200. # [01:36] <caitp> i'm not sure what "@{u}" is supposed to be either, and I'm pretty good with git
  201. # [01:36] <zewt> there are tons of things you just don't need to know in git
  202. # [01:36] <Hixie> that's pretty much the problem
  203. # [01:37] <Hixie> and a pretty clear sign of something being over-engineered
  204. # [01:37] <Hixie> personally i think _svn_ is too complicated
  205. # [01:37] <jgraham> It's really not over-engineered
  206. # [01:37] <jgraham> If anything it's too simple
  207. # [01:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: you can use names of branches as aliases for the commit at the top of the branch
  208. # [01:37] <gsnedders> Hixie: likewise tags
  209. # [01:37] * Joins: Streusel (~Anonymous@unaffiliated/streusel)
  210. # [01:37] <jgraham> Most of the things that confuse people are because the data model is poking through
  211. # [01:37] <zewt> there are definitely things which are weird and unobvious which suggests questionable design to me
  212. # [01:37] <gsnedders> git's data model is /really, really, really/ simple. And arguably the problems are lack of absractions on it.
  213. # [01:38] <caitp> add, rm, commit, rebase, push, pull, checkout, remote cherry-pick, format-patch, am, log, and maybe rev-parse for scripting, and not necessarily in that order
  214. # [01:38] <caitp> most of those commands are simple and self-explanatory
  215. # [01:38] <jgraham> e.g. origin/master is literally the path .git/refs/origin/master
  216. # [01:38] <jgraham> Which is a file containing a SHA1
  217. # [01:38] <jgraham> Which points to the head of the origin/master branch
  218. # [01:39] <jgraham> caitp: ref-log is also useful
  219. # [01:39] <Hixie> i just want a remote file system that's versioned
  220. # [01:39] <Hixie> no branches, tags, local repos, etc
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  222. # [01:40] <zewt> different workflows need different thing
  223. # [01:40] <Hixie> just a way to commit, a way to diff, a way to revert
  224. # [01:40] <jgraham> Yeah, but that's not what we want in order to share work with you
  225. # [01:40] <zewt> i've never once needed format-patch
  226. # [01:40] <Hixie> i'm not really looking to share work with anyone :-P
  227. # [01:40] * Joins: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.44.231)
  228. # [01:40] <jgraham> Well here you are
  229. # [01:40] <jgraham> But your needs are strange because you usually work alone
  230. # [01:40] <caitp> format-patch made working on mozilla-central from git a lot easier
  231. # [01:40] <jgraham> That is very much the 0.1% case
  232. # [01:40] <jgraham> caitp: moz-git-tools
  233. # [01:41] <caitp> this was from a while back
  234. # [01:41] <zewt> the whole "patch sets to mailing lists" workflow seems pretty terrible to me, heh
  235. # [01:41] <jgraham> Yeah, it is
  236. # [01:41] <jgraham> The whole patches attached to bugzilla workflow is also terrible
  237. # [01:41] <zewt> the #1 biggest thing open source has gained from git is being able to send patches *without* having to send patches
  238. # [01:41] <Hixie> i think people working alone is more like the 99.999% case, but sure
  239. # [01:41] <Hixie> i agree that other people have other needs
  240. # [01:41] <caitp> in some ways, I think bugzilla's model kind of beats rietveld. _.
  241. # [01:42] <zewt> fork github project, make changes in a branch, send a PR, and the whole "sending a patch" thing is invisible--which has lowered the bar for sending patches massively
  242. # [01:42] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@209.49.73.82)
  243. # [01:42] <Hixie> alright, my tests pass again
  244. # [01:42] <Hixie> excellent
  245. # [01:42] <caitp> horray
  246. # [01:42] <Hixie> jgraham: thanks again, btw, especially for putting up with my whining
  247. # [01:43] <jgraham> zewt: Yeah, it's pretty amazing that forms the central value proposition of github
  248. # [01:43] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@209.49.73.82) (Client Quit)
  249. # [01:43] <jgraham> Especially when their implementation is so halfassed
  250. # [01:43] <gsnedders> jgraham: thanks for putting up with Hixie's whining so I could go and drink cider
  251. # [01:43] <jgraham> Hixie: np
  252. # [01:44] <zewt> oddly i tend to make a comparison between git and twitter--twitter has essentially zeroed the cost for sending a message to someone else (even if those messages are excessively limited)
  253. # [01:44] <Hixie> gsnedders: https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-tests/branches
  254. # [01:44] <gsnedders> Hixie: aye, I saw in the backlog
  255. # [01:44] <gsnedders> tomorrow's problem, assuming I don't kill someone and end up in jail during driving lesson :)
  256. # [01:44] <jgraham> gsnedders: I doubt the cider will help</protip>
  257. # [01:45] * jgraham really is going to sleep now
  258. # [01:45] <Hixie> gsnedders: roger, good luck
  259. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> Ooh, yeah, "Hacker's Guide to Git" works quite well as an explanation of the data model.
  260. # [01:45] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'm pretty sure I can cope with one bottle ten hours before.
  261. # [01:46] * Quits: barnabywalters (~barnabywa@89.17.128.127) (Quit: barnabywalters)
  262. # [01:46] <zewt> git is one of those things that you sort of have to both 1: read a bunch and then 2: suck up and use it for a couple months to get past the curve
  263. # [01:46] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@209.49.73.82)
  264. # [01:46] <zewt> which isn't an indicator of great design, but worth it in its case
  265. # [01:48] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM602ad06daeed.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  266. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> I think it's easier if you didn't learn a previous VCS.
  267. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> But yeah, intuitively getting what commits/tags/branches represent, and how they're different from files and folders, is a little hard.
  268. # [01:49] <zewt> rebasing can be a bit tricky too
  269. # [01:49] <gsnedders> most of git makes sense if you understand the underlying model
  270. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> Super-easy once you understand cherrypicking.
  271. # [01:49] <gsnedders> but only if you understand the underlying model
  272. # [01:49] <TabAtkins> Because rebase is just "automatically cherry-pick everything from the common ancestor to here for me".
  273. # [01:49] <zewt> what helped me a lot was to peek into .git while it was rebasing; once you see a directory with a couple dozen numbered patch files, it's pretty clear what it's doing
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  275. # [01:51] <zewt> i guess one of the weaker points is force pushing
  276. # [01:51] <zewt> because explaining it goes like this: "you should never ever ever do this, except when you should"
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  278. # [01:52] <zewt> that might be more due to the github pull request model that was layered on top (where you have to force push over the PR branch to update it); in the original linux kernel model maybe there was no normal workflow reason to ever do it
  279. # [01:53] <gsnedders> you should always assume others have cloned your repo and have things based on that branch
  280. # [01:53] <gsnedders> hence getting rid of that is bad
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  282. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> What *&is* a good reason to force push?
  283. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> I've never had to do so.
  284. # [01:56] <gsnedders> A good reason? You committed your password to the repo and want to entirely remove it from history.
  285. # [01:57] <gsnedders> However, note anyone who already has a clone still has it
  286. # [01:57] <TabAtkins> Right, you can't amend othe rpeople's histories.
  287. # [01:57] <gsnedders> The typical case in the GitHub case is when rebasing a PR
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  291. # [02:03] <zewt> hero ku uses git for pushing code; you need to force push to that a lot too
  292. # [02:03] <zewt> also heroku; ios'a new habit of autocorrecting words when you type the *next* word is terrible
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  296. # [02:06] <TabAtkins> Huh, Android just autocorrets when you hit space.
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  306. # [02:19] <zewt> that's what ios used to do; now it tries to figure out phrases
  307. # [02:19] <zewt> which means you never really know when it'll insert a typo for you
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  322. # [02:35] <Domenic> TabAtkins: lookin' good. https://whatwg.github.io/streams/
  323. # [02:36] <Domenic> Next up I think I need to steal some CSS and/or JS to get the anchor links working
  324. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> Happy to help.
  325. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> The parts of the CSSWG stylesheet are pretty easy to find.
  326. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/default.css
  327. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> Look for a.self-link
  328. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> Also: whatwg specs should use the CSSWG toc styling, it's the best.
  329. # [02:39] <Domenic> sweet. will play with this more tomorrow maybe. although at some point i have to consider this yak shaved and keep working on the actual text :P
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  340. # [02:56] <zewt> yak shaving considered harmful
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  343. # [03:04] <Hixie> TabAtkins: last time you said that css spec styling was the best, i picked a random css spec, and it looked horrible. do you have a specific spec in mind?
  344. # [03:09] <Domenic> was the day April 1?
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  346. # [03:10] <zewt> one of them was
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  421. # [07:28] <annevk> TabAtkins: dom-core.html is not too important I guess; https://github.com/whatwg/dom/ should be canonical; I use two definitions of throw, one is from DOM, one is from IDL
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The end :)