/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-06-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jun 22 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:05] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: When you say “that model is crazytown” is that referring to <use xlink:href>? Do you think the future of using SVGs is strictly <img> or something else?
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  17. # [01:06] <caitp> as sad as it is, xml doesn't work very well in HTML or the DOM, so SVG has some issues --- they aren't necessarily related to the issue you're talking about WRT cross-domain <use> tags, but there are a number of hard problems to solve, and it could be that SVG's future in html is just as broken as html has been, historically, if not moreso
  18. # [01:07] <caitp> no need to get into the specifics about the various broken things, but if you've looked at it, you've probably noticed some of the issues
  19. # [01:09] <caitp> of course that doesn't mean that the future of SVG won't be successful, it's a common theme around here about broken things being highly successful
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  21. # [01:11] <SamB> caitp: :-(
  22. # [01:15] <caitp> well I'm not saying I'm right, it could be a pessimistic view =)
  23. # [01:15] <caitp> but the way it looks to me, it's a bit like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, it doesn't quite squeeze in
  24. # [01:17] <SamB> well, I mean, I don't really expect SVG embedded in the HTML syntax to work the best ...
  25. # [01:17] <caitp> the network requirements may not line up with those of the web platform, xml complicates things for CSS resulting in weird and unfortunate hacks, which are still not actually working in some mainstream browsers, and are certainly not working with DOM apis using query selectors, beyond selectors, the createElementNS thing is really just a hack to support xml, there are all these corners that don't quite fit
  26. # [01:18] <caitp> the CSS issue particularly being @namespaces
  27. # [01:18] <caitp> yeah it's not really limited to SVG, most of that stuff is just XML not really fitting well into HTML to begin with
  28. # [01:18] <SamB> where you really need something more like what RNG has, eh?
  29. # [01:19] <SamB> and CSS not really being this generic thing it's presented as
  30. # [01:19] <SamB> I guess it works about as well as DTDs though ...
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  40. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: I'm referring to cross-document <use>.
  41. # [01:44] <TabAtkins> Though now that the instance tree is gone, it might be slightly saner.
  42. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> caitp: Namespaces don't really cause problems for CSS unless you're missing vocabs with the same element names.
  43. # [01:46] <caitp> it's not necessarily a problem implementing them, but lets face it, it's a hack
  44. # [01:47] <TabAtkins> And even then it's not a "problem" so much as an inconvenience.
  45. # [01:47] <caitp> inconveniences are problems =) but I concede that css is the smallest problem
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  47. # [01:48] <caitp> although DOM selector APIs having to deal with case-sensitive names is kind of sucky
  48. # [01:48] <caitp> because that is just totally different from HTML
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  50. # [01:48] <caitp> which is what this stuff was built for
  51. # [01:49] <caitp> there are all kinds of problems with it, and I'm not saying that as an attack on XML, because XML is great. but the pieces never really fit together very well
  52. # [01:49] <caitp> from my perspective
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  59. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> caitp: yeah in contrast the pieces of the Web platform all fit together super elegantly well
  60. # [02:24] <caitp> the sarcasm is appreciated
  61. # [02:24] <SamB> caitp: well that's good, because otherwise you'd have totally misunderstood him
  62. # [02:27] <caitp> my argument that shoving XML into HTML doesn't really fit doesn't necessarily mean that everything else fits together well, but it doesn't necessarily help the situation
  63. # [02:27] <caitp> it will be interesting to see how that plays out, and if it can be made to sort of work
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  68. # [02:39] <JonathanNeal> If I want to use SVG over webfont and use it across domains then I'm going to need to hack.
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  72. # [02:44] <JonathanNeal> Which probably means an XHR request and access headers, if I can even do that with an SVG. I can imagine it now, JSVN (Jay-Sven, JavaScript Vector Notation) and JSVNP.
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  75. # [02:57] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: btw what's the level of support for img@crossorigin is browsers?
  76. # [02:57] <MikeSmith> caniuse tells me nothing
  77. # [02:58] <JonathanNeal> MikeSmith: I don't know, and I will be testing as soon as I can get on the laptop.
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  79. # [03:00] <MikeSmith> JonathanNeal: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/CORS_enabled_image indicates it's been supported in Chrome and Firefox for a long time
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  81. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> there are some things that Alexis doesn't add to to caniuse even when they already have browser support. I don't understand why
  82. # [03:01] <caitp> maybe nobody has tried to add it yet?
  83. # [03:02] <caitp> they take patches
  84. # [03:02] <caitp> i don't see any issues about CORS wrt images
  85. # [03:05] <JonathanNeal> Well, SVG is a special kind of image, in that it's a kind of readable.
  86. # [03:06] <MikeSmith> writing a canisuse patch requires me to first have tests, or write the tests myself
  87. # [03:06] <MikeSmith> which I suspect is why Alexis hasn't added it
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  89. # [03:07] <MikeSmith> he doesn't add stuff without tests
  90. # [03:10] <SamB> I assume the point of using CORS with an img is to keep it untainted?
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  93. # [03:26] <JonathanNeal> It looks like even with CORS, IE9-11 is out of the picture.
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  115. # [06:15] <zcorpan> Hixie: will the broken ndash and dots fix themselves in your new pipeline? See first example in introduction
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  154. # [11:28] <musically_ut> I have a question about the CORS specification which probably has been discussed on some mailing list. Where should I post the question or search for answers?
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  161. # [11:45] <MikeSmith> musically_ut: whatwg@whatwg.org or public-webappsec@w3.org
  162. # [11:46] <musically_ut> MikeSmith, Thanks. Is there a web-frontend to search those mailing lists?
  163. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> musically_ut: or ping annevk here when he's around (he wrote the spec)
  164. # [11:46] <MikeSmith> musically_ut: yeah lists.w3.org
  165. # [11:46] * espadrine_ is now known as espadrine
  166. # [11:46] <musically_ut> I could write him an e-mail but I'd rather do some research myself first. :)
  167. # [11:46] <musically_ut> Perfect.
  168. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> the whatwg list archives are at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/
  169. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> musically_ut: note that Anne has folded CORS into the Fetch spec
  170. # [11:48] <musically_ut> Huh .. April 2004 was the 10 year anniversary of whatwg. I never made the connection.
  171. # [11:48] <musically_ut> * April 2014
  172. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> so the standalone CORS spec is obsolete
  173. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> no this month was the anniversary of the whatwg actually
  174. # [11:49] <musically_ut> :)
  175. # [11:49] <musically_ut> http://www.w3.org/TR/cors/ doesn't seem to suggest that the spec has become obsolete.
  176. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> April was the 10 year anniversary of the HTML spec (aka WebApps 1.0 aka HTML5) https://github.com/whatwg/web-history#2004-04
  177. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> musically_ut: never use anything in http://www.w3.org/TR/
  178. # [11:50] * musically_ut raises eyebrows.
  179. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> seriously
  180. # [11:51] <MikeSmith> always use either the Editor's Draft version that corresponds to whatever's in http://www.w3.org/TR or find out whatever has replaced it
  181. # [11:52] <musically_ut> What does "TR" in the URL stand for?
  182. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> the documents in http://www.w3.org/TR can pretty much always be considered out of date
  183. # [11:52] <MikeSmith> Technical Report
  184. # [11:52] <musically_ut> Ah.
  185. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> anyway as far as CORS, I think the WebAppSec WG is still maintaining a separate spec but the browser implementors are implementing from Fetch now
  186. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> or should be
  187. # [11:53] <musically_ut> This is rather confusing. http://www.w3.org/TR/ lists neither Fetch nor CORS TR.
  188. # [11:53] <musically_ut> But I did not know about the cumulative Fetch specs.
  189. # [11:54] <musically_ut> I have found them here: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#http-cors-protocol
  190. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> yeah sorry for the confusion but it's not unique to this case
  191. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> musically_ut: yeah http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org is what you want to be reading
  192. # [11:54] <musically_ut> Excellent.
  193. # [11:57] <musically_ut> Okay, I'll search the archives a bit to see if I can find an answer. Otherwise, you'll hear from me on the mailing list. :)
  194. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> btw we're trying to do some things to deal with the http://www.w3.org/TR confusion problem but it's taking some time because there's a lot of politics and inertia that get in the way
  195. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> musically_ut: sounds great. cheers
  196. # [11:57] <musically_ut> What is the plan with www.w3.org/TR then?
  197. # [11:58] <Ms2ger> Ignore it
  198. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> the plan is to make it always provide up-to-date info about what the latest version of every spec is
  199. # [11:58] <musically_ut> up-to-date == github master branch?
  200. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> but in the mean time you can ignore TR or least any time you look at a doc in http://www.w3.org/TR you should check the top of it to see if it lists a "Latest Editor's Draft" link
  201. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> and if it does, use the document at that link
  202. # [12:00] <Ms2ger> And if it doesn't, still try to find one :)
  203. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> and if it doesn't then be very suspicious
  204. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> yeah
  205. # [12:00] <musically_ut> :)
  206. # [12:01] <musically_ut> So if it doesn't have an editor draft then it has very likely been made obsolete?
  207. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> well
  208. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> yeah, basically
  209. # [12:01] <MikeSmith> either that or it's not relevant at all to begin with
  210. # [12:02] <musically_ut> Great. Thanks for the tips, MikeSmith and Ms2ger
  211. # [12:02] <MikeSmith> there are many documents at http://www.w3.org/TR that have absolutely nothing to do with the Web platform so you don't need to care about them at all
  212. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> musically_ut: http://platform.html5.org is a much better index of what's relevant
  213. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: do you know if all floating-point numbers are allowed in CSS length values?
  214. # [12:05] <Ms2ger> I don't
  215. # [12:07] <musically_ut> Ah, nice.
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  217. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> well I find http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/#number-value which says "A number is either an <integer> or zero or more decimal digits followed by a dot (.) followed by one or more decimal digits." but then it also says "It corresponds to the <number-token> production in the CSS Syntax Module." and TabAtkins railroad diagram at http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax-3/#number-token-diagram suggests it can be any floating-point number, not just "either an <
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  220. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: I'm trying to figure out if, e.g., 100e+0vw is a valid length value or not
  221. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: because I'm trying to write an error-reporting @sizes parse for the validator
  222. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> *parser
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  268. # [16:38] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Trust the specified parser.
  269. # [16:38] <TabAtkins> 100e+0vw is valid.
  270. # [16:39] <TabAtkins> I need to update V&U to take the scinot change into account.
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  272. # [16:48] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Fixed now.
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  327. # [21:17] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: Coolーthanks!
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  329. # [21:22] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: To write a good sizes parser, you'll want to write a full css parser, which is trivial to do by following the Syntax spec.
  330. # [21:22] <TabAtkins> And is much smaller than an html parser. ^_^
  331. # [21:36] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
  332. # [21:38] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: for the validator I need the parser to be error-reporting, which I think can make the implemented algorithm need to be somewhat different from the spec
  333. # [21:39] <MikeSmith> at the very least it means I basically need to infer some parse errors based on the corresponding authoring requirements
  334. # [21:40] <MikeSmith> e.g., at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/edits.html#parse-a-sizes-attribute where it says "Remove all consecutive <whitespace-token>s from the end of unparsed size. If unparsed size is now empty, continue to the next iteration of this algorithm.", I need to emit an error for the "If unparsed size is now empty" condition
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The end :)