/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-06-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 24 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:03] <JonathanNeal> moorsiek: we have inherited a lot from previous fields.
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  8. # [00:03] <JonathanNeal> Keyboard layouts, font sizes, the 80 character thing, etc.
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  12. # [00:14] <JonathanNeal> paul_irish: do you remember when we researched the 12pt thing? Didn’t you compile the history somewhere?
  13. # [00:14] <JonathanNeal> the 12pt being the default in browsers thing
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  29. # [00:44] <JonathanNeal> moorsiek: In 1785, Francois Didot was refining typography standards. This was before TabAtkins and linear gradient. Back then, a lot of measurements were written non-numerically. Imagine if we wrote measurements like we write color: blue. e.g. font-size: parisienne. So, Francois “normalized” the standard size of type to be 1/72 of a French inch and he
  30. # [00:44] <JonathanNeal> called that a pica, which he divided into 12 points. Dividing by 12 was the natural thing to do back then.
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  32. # [00:47] <Hixie> other way round (point = 1/72", pica = 1/12pt)
  33. # [00:48] <Hixie> no wait
  34. # [00:48] <Hixie> what you said was right except s/inch/foot/
  35. # [00:49] <JonathanNeal> Yes, thanks. And really, Didot was reworking something he had seen from Truchet years earlier, much like we still do today.
  36. # [00:50] <Hixie> yeah. also all these numbers got renormalised a few times over the years
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  38. # [00:51] <JonathanNeal> Yes, and eventually Adobe and Mac implemented the same standard that had been suggested something like twenty years prior.
  39. # [00:52] <JonathanNeal> Much like Firefox and IE.
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  41. # [00:53] <JonathanNeal> And then we ruined line returns i mean carriage returns i mean, anyway, and then we had a standard. And that’s where standards come from. WHATWG is the best standard. The last standard, surely, for the rest of the history of mankind.
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  44. # [00:58] <JonathanNeal> My favorite is the 80 character rule. It goes back to an 80 character limit on a screen, which goes back to 80 column standard on a punch card designed in 1928.
  45. # [01:01] <caitp> #927
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  48. # [01:11] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: here’s one I don’t know. Why do we use angled brackets for HTML?
  49. # [01:11] <Hixie> cos sgml used angle brackets and tim thought it looked cool, or something
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  51. # [01:12] <zewt> my least favorite is people who try to tell me to mangle my python code so it doesn't wrap on an 80 column screen
  52. # [01:12] <zewt> re: no.
  53. # [01:13] <Hixie> 80's a bit narrow, but it's good to pick a fixed width so all the developers on a project know what size to make their edit windows
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  55. # [01:14] <zewt> having a rough guideline, but having a couple lines wrapping is harmless in any reasonable programmer's editor
  56. # [01:14] <Hixie> there's nothing reasonable to do with wrapping lines
  57. # [01:14] <zewt> and my rough guideline is closer to 120
  58. # [01:14] <zewt> doesn't give me any trouble
  59. # [01:14] <Hixie> 120's probably ok if nobody on your project likes to have lots of narrow edit windows next to each other
  60. # [01:15] <zewt> not mangling my code for people who do that
  61. # [01:15] <Hixie> that's fine if your project doesn't have such people
  62. # [01:16] <a-ja> but the lines always wrap on my TTY
  63. # [01:16] <zewt> my favorite is pep-8, which has a bunch of "how to wrap code to fit in 78 or whatever columns", and those examples are so hideous they make a joke of pep-8
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  65. # [01:16] <Philip`> 80 characters wide with 8-space tabs (e.g. the Linux kernel) is great - some people take the hint to avoid deep nesting and pull things out into helper functions, while other people decide to indent heavily and then split their code into a single symbol per line so it trickles down the right of the screen in a nice random pattern
  66. # [01:16] <zewt> such people can deal with it, because such people can't expect the whole world to bend their code for them
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  68. # [01:17] <Hixie> zewt: not the whole world, just the people on their project.
  69. # [01:18] <zewt> i stick to 4-space tabs now, mostly because it's the most common and an easy sell to programmers--when it comes to indentation, consistency is more important than anything
  70. # [01:18] <zewt> some people dislike 8 as too wide; I consider 2 completely unreadable
  71. # [01:19] <Hixie> i assume you mean indents, not tabs
  72. # [01:19] <zewt> (and only gnu would use 3)
  73. # [01:19] <Hixie> using raw tabs is obviously crazy
  74. # [01:19] <zewt> yes, I always turn hard tabs off completely
  75. # [01:19] <JonathanNeal> Got it, so in 1974, Charles Goldfarb was looking to create a standard way to markup documents. His partners were Ed Mosher and Ray Lorie and they called it Generalized Markup Language because it matched their last initials.
  76. # [01:20] <zewt> since some editors conflate indentation and tab stops and some people can't understand the difference, or why hard tabs are always 8 spaces, and the easiest sell it just turn them off
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  79. # [01:21] <Hixie> anyway the real reason to make sure you wrap to 80 chars is that that's the width of a punch card
  80. # [01:21] <Hixie> and if you overflow that, your punchcard processor is just gonna fail
  81. # [01:21] <Hixie> which is expensive
  82. # [01:21] <Hixie> and a waste
  83. # [01:21] <zewt> well, that's not why it's in pep-8 :P
  84. # [01:21] <Hixie> so, stick to 80 chars
  85. # [01:21] <JonathanNeal> Hixie is right.
  86. # [01:22] <zewt> which is the PEP I take least seriously, and which some people try to use as bible
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  88. # [01:23] <JonathanNeal> I still haven’t learned why they choose angled brackets, but in the original GML of the 70’s tags were started with a colon and ended with a period, e.g. :h1.
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  91. # [01:24] <zewt> maybe it's as simple as "tags starting with a colon and ending with a period is hideous"
  92. # [01:24] <caitp> at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what they picked
  93. # [01:24] <Hixie> (and 72 characters is reasonable because the last 8 are typically used for sequence numbers so you can resort a deck if you drop it)
  94. # [01:26] <JonathanNeal> caitp: it doesn’t matter until someone wonders why all HTML isn’t slim-lang.
  95. # [01:27] <JonathanNeal> Or Coding Horror calls it a tax. http://blog.codinghorror.com/xml-the-angle-bracket-tax/ and pushes the industry further from XML-like protocols (and perhaps into JSON-like protocols)
  96. # [01:28] <caitp> even if html wound up looking like HAML or YAML or whatever else, people would still say it wasn't nice
  97. # [01:28] <caitp> because that's just what people do
  98. # [01:28] <zewt> json seriously needs to allow comments
  99. # [01:29] <caitp> the syntax/grammar of html is really one of the least offensive parts when you get down to it
  100. # [01:30] <JonathanNeal> I think I got it! In a 90’s book, some guy mentioned that writing out the code was part of the process, and it was a real pain, and certain decisions were made to help make physically writing the code easier.
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  103. # [01:34] <JonathanNeal> Nevermind, I misunderstood it. Sorry, Steven J. DeRose.
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  105. # [01:39] <JonathanNeal> Okay, so there were several standards. Because SGML had to allow for multiple delimiters, the spec was huge. Most folks found using <> was the most readable, thus “SGML elements were (nearly always) delimited with angle brackets.” http://www.snee.com/bobdc.blog/2012/01/a-brief-opinionated-history-of.html
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  110. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> zewt: "hard tabs are always 8 spaces"?
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  113. # [01:49] <zewt> the tab stop for ^I should always be 8 spaces, but people who confuse the hard tab stop with the code indentation size change it, resulting in WW3
  114. # [01:50] <zewt> and visual studio's criminally incompetent developers set tab stops to 4, which badly aggravates the problem
  115. # [01:50] <SamB> zewt: it might not be the devs' fault
  116. # [01:50] <SamB> that might be management's mandate ...
  117. # [01:51] <SamB> (though perhaps they don't have many VS hackers *left* who still run Emacs)
  118. # [01:51] <zewt> to users that's not really a distinction, but okay
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  120. # [01:52] <zewt> call it the visual studio team if you want
  121. # [01:53] <TabAtkins> zewt: Oh, right, hard tabs are "insert multiple spaces". Sorry, was confused.
  122. # [01:54] <zewt> hard tabs are insert tab control characters, soft tabs are insert spaces
  123. # [01:54] <zewt> (not sure if we're saying the same thing)
  124. # [01:54] <TabAtkins> Argh, dammit. I got it backwards again!
  125. # [01:54] <TabAtkins> Well, tab control characters are purposely resizable, but I think I've had this discussion with you before, and you wont' admit you're wrong. ^_^
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  127. # [01:55] <JonathanNeal> That’s why I prefer tabs. You decide!
  128. # [01:56] <zewt> changing the tab stop size means you have text files that are only viewable consistently f you configure your environment to match the one they were authored in
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  130. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> As we've discussed in the past, that only happens if people misuse tab characters for alignment, rather than solely indentation.
  131. # [01:57] <zewt> code with the "wrong" tab stop is invariably hilarious but useless
  132. # [01:57] <SamB> TabAtkins: Knuth says tabstops are 8 spaces apart
  133. # [01:57] <SamB> are you gonna argue with Knuth?
  134. # [01:57] <zewt> things I'm not going to spend mental bandwidth on while working (and worse, time trying to explain to coworkers): whether I'm inserting spaces or tabs
  135. # [01:58] <SamB> but yeah, it's not so much an issue if you very carefully follow these arcane rules to ensure that they're only used for alignment, and that tabs and spaces are never mixed ...
  136. # [01:58] <JonathanNeal> Tabs are intended to be variable and responsive. That’s why we have .editorConfig and other tools to standardize them across machines to your hearts content.
  137. # [01:58] <JonathanNeal> And I can just undo all your two-spaces and put in tabs, and let you configure tabs to look like two-spaces. We both win.
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  139. # [01:58] <SamB> I thought tabs were a primitive mechanism for text compression for teletypes
  140. # [01:59] <JonathanNeal> Until you start using tabs for space alignment, and at that point, you’re doing it wrong.
  141. # [01:59] <SamB> I always consider it a "lose" when I have to configure a tab size in my editor to make something look sensible
  142. # [01:59] <SamB> this happens far more than I should like
  143. # [01:59] <JonathanNeal> http://editorconfig.org/ problem solved
  144. # [02:00] <zewt> turn off hard tabs, use 4-space indents. problem solved in the simplest way imaginable
  145. # [02:00] <SamB> therefore, some people are reconfiguring the size AND not aware of the associated arcane rules
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  147. # [02:01] <SamB> (or using braindead stuff like VS that starts out with a non-standard value)
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  149. # [02:02] <zewt> I sure don't want to spend time (expensive time, since it involves getting other people to do it too) just to allow fiddling with the indentation; 4 spaces is fine
  150. # [02:02] <SamB> zewt: yeah, I prefer that approach
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  152. # [02:03] <SamB> I set my Emacs to avoid TAB by default
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  154. # [02:04] <zewt> and since it's an easy sell, it leaves more in the "arguing about code style with coworkers" budget for things like "don't write comments in stream of consciousness"
  155. # [02:05] <montecfel> This is unbelievably annoying. When drawing a text with fillText on a canvas, the font will randomly blur even though you Math.round() the x and y coordinates. The string "This is a text." is blurry. If I change it into "This is a text.aaa", it becomes sharp. If I remove or add any chars, it becomes blurry again. Can somebody save my computer from meeting with my sledgehammer?
  156. # [02:05] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  157. # [02:06] <montecfel> The font size is not dynamic, but fixed at 16px.
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  192. # [03:42] <TabAtkins> zewt: Arguing about tab width is a fun thing to burn code-style budget on. Real tabs avoid this.
  193. # [03:42] <TabAtkins> SamB: The "arcane rules" are "indent with tabs, align with spaces". Not exactly hard.
  194. # [03:44] <SamB> I guess it isn't too complicated for *C*
  195. # [03:44] <TabAtkins> When aligning a broken line, you indent to the same level, then align the remaining with spaces. Trivial.
  196. # [03:44] <SamB> TabAtkins: it's arcane compared to "don't use TABs"
  197. # [03:45] <TabAtkins> "Arcane in comparison" doesn't carry much weight when both are so simple. ^_^
  198. # [03:46] <SamB> well, a lot of people still manage to screw it up :-(
  199. # [03:46] <TabAtkins> A paperclip is heavy when compared to a feather, but that doesn't make it "heavy".
  200. # [03:46] <TabAtkins> Yeah, and those same people screw up space alignment too. I've never seen a space-indented file without an indentation mistake.
  201. # [03:47] <caitp> as long as it's "good enough", who cares
  202. # [03:48] <SamB> TabAtkins: I guess you haven't looked very hard ;-)
  203. # [03:48] <TabAtkins> Oh, I'm sure they exist, particularly when there are automated checks or strict style reviews.
  204. # [03:49] <TabAtkins> But I think they're rare.
  205. # [03:49] <caitp> if you abolish style rules, you don't even need git blame anymore, the blame is built into the file :D
  206. # [03:50] <TabAtkins> caitp: A file that randomly switches between 2 and 4 space indents isn't "good enough".
  207. # [03:50] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: sicking)
  208. # [03:50] <SamB> TabAtkins: oh, sure
  209. # [03:50] <caitp> i'm not being totally serious there tab, but I think there are a lot of things that you can let slide
  210. # [03:50] <SamB> but the indent width setting is totally different from the tab width settign
  211. # [03:50] <caitp> like aligning function parameters on a wrapped line
  212. # [03:50] <TabAtkins> And I've seen plenty of that, even for single-author files.
  213. # [03:50] <othermaciej> “never use tabs” is a much simpler rule to follow
  214. # [03:50] <caitp> stuff like that is pretty "who cares"
  215. # [03:50] <caitp> long as it's readable
  216. # [03:51] <TabAtkins> caitp: Yeah, I usually break lines by just indenting an extra level, rather than aligning anything. Even simpler.
  217. # [03:51] <othermaciej> consistency is important for code
  218. # [03:51] <othermaciej> irrelevant differences jump out at you, making it harder to notice the relevant differences
  219. # [03:51] <TabAtkins> Because then the rule is "always use tabs".
  220. # [03:51] <caitp> consistency is important
  221. # [03:52] <caitp> but it's not the -most important thing-
  222. # [03:52] <SamB> TabAtkins: that would work okay as long as it's fine if I leave tabs at the standard width
  223. # [03:52] <TabAtkins> othermaciej: You might want to figure out who you're arguing against, because it isn't me. ^_^
  224. # [03:52] <SamB> so, you better not nest too much if you do that
  225. # [03:52] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: my statements were counters to things said by different people
  226. # [03:52] <TabAtkins> SamB: Eh, works fine for me at anything between 2 and 8 spaces.
  227. # [03:53] <SamB> anyway, obviously if you don't use tabs, everyone needs to use the same `c-basic-offset'
  228. # [03:53] <caitp> far more bothersome than any of that is the insistence on using hungarian notation
  229. # [03:54] <SamB> hmm, I'm still not sure how I feel about hungarian notation
  230. # [03:54] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: I am pretty sure you agree with me that consistency in code formatting is important, but you also seemed to advocate use of real TABs for indenting, which I am not a fan of
  231. # [03:54] <SamB> TabAtkins: anyway, it sounds like I would have no problem with YOUR files
  232. # [03:54] <TabAtkins> Nominative determinism really leaves me no choice.
  233. # [03:54] <SamB> but many people do not know that there are ANY rules, and that's a problem
  234. # [03:55] <othermaciej> hungarian notation often adds more noise than info
  235. # [03:55] <TabAtkins> Yes, those people are the devil.
  236. # [03:55] <SamB> I would really prefer if getting live TABs required completing a training course of some kind
  237. # [03:56] <SamB> and if clippy would pop up if you started ruining the indentation in a file by using the wrong basic offset ;-P
  238. # [03:56] <caitp> U+000B after every function, or else!
  239. # [03:56] <TabAtkins> Yeah, IDEs could help by highlighting lines that start with spaces.
  240. # [03:57] <SamB> TabAtkins: I think it's a *bit* more complicated than that
  241. # [03:57] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but it's a good start.
  242. # [03:58] <SamB> I mean, how do you know if those spaces are for normal indentation or alignment?
  243. # [03:58] <caitp> his argument was that alignment isn't really necessary -> just add an extra indentation on wrapped lines
  244. # [03:58] <SamB> anyway, you've really gotta throw TAB out the window in, say, Haskell ...
  245. # [03:59] <TabAtkins> Just stick with my "only tabs" rule.
  246. # [03:59] <caitp> which works great for that particular style
  247. # [03:59] <caitp> of course you can do that with spaces too, and then you get to hang out with the cool kids
  248. # [04:00] <TabAtkins> Of all the cool kids jumped off a bridge, would you?
  249. # [04:00] <caitp> depends on the bridge!
  250. # [04:00] <TabAtkins> (Probably yes, there's probably something cool down there.)
  251. # [04:00] <SamB> well, I'd make damn sure my glider was in good shape beforehand ...
  252. # [04:01] * Joins: JosephSilber (~Joseph@ool-44c3e80a.static.optonline.net)
  253. # [04:03] <SamB> anyway, I've seen three positions with any sanity to them: Tab's, the one where you use only spaces and you're careful to at least use the same `c-basic-offset' everywhere, and the one where you say tab stops occur every 8 columns and make sure to use the same `c-basic-offset' as everyone else.
  254. # [04:04] <SamB> probably all of these could use some settings in .dir-locals.el
  255. # [04:05] <MikeSmith> "if you abolish style rules, you don't even need git blame anymore, the blame is built into the file" wins
  256. # [04:06] <SamB> I don't even *understand* that utterance
  257. # [04:06] <SamB> oh, wait
  258. # [04:06] <caitp> you can infer authorship and date from writing style!
  259. # [04:06] <SamB> that means everyone uses a different `c-indent-offset'?
  260. # [04:06] <caitp> but it was not a serious comment
  261. # [04:07] <SamB> well, that won't tell you which commit it was though
  262. # [04:07] <SamB> ;-P
  263. # [04:07] <caitp> although of the set of useless super powers
  264. # [04:07] <caitp> that would be a pretty cool one
  265. # [04:07] <zewt> didn't know this thread was still going; i feel sort of bad :P
  266. # [04:07] <SamB> I think I'm done now
  267. # [04:08] <SamB> having given a list of positions I think are at all sane to have
  268. # [04:08] <zewt> i've been watching SGDQ (http://www.twitch.tv/speeddemosarchivesda) and having a beer
  269. # [04:10] <TabAtkins> zewt: It's cool, I'm having wine and flying.
  270. # [04:11] <zewt> TabAtkins, replying to the one thing highlighted at me: my experience is it's much easier to get consensus on "4-space soft tabs" than anything related to hard tab stops, which is a big benefit to me (we can just set it up and get back to work)
  271. # [04:12] <TabAtkins> zewt: On the other hand, Blink and Chromium use 2 and 4 space indents, respectively. Meeting the codebase is painful
  272. # [04:13] <TabAtkins> Merging, argh.
  273. # [04:14] <caitp> blink uses 2 space indents all over the place
  274. # [04:14] <zewt> 2-space indentation is unforgivable
  275. # [04:14] <caitp> er
  276. # [04:14] <caitp> 4 space*
  277. # [04:14] <caitp> are you saying there are files in blink that use 2 space?
  278. # [04:14] <zewt> but more than anything, changing indentation needs to be avoided at all costs
  279. # [04:15] <zewt> if they use different indentation across overlapping codebases, and they've reinvented code that needs to be merged, then somebody needs to be taken out of a decision-making position
  280. # [04:16] <zewt> because that's the worst possible result
  281. # [04:16] <caitp> to be fair, blink was inherited from webkit, and they probably weren't there when webkit decided on their style? but I am pretty sure it's 4 space indentation in chromium, blink and v8
  282. # [04:17] <zewt> ... reindented (yeah, I'm on my phone)
  283. # [04:17] <caitp> oh i'm wrong, 2 space in v8
  284. # [04:17] <caitp> there you go =)
  285. # [04:17] <zewt> but if you've forked code and you have any intention of sharing code, you keep the existing indentation style--period
  286. # [04:17] <TabAtkins> We might have aligned indentation after the fork.
  287. # [04:18] <SamB> TabAtkins: that probably wasn't a good idea if you wanted to steal patches ever ...
  288. # [04:18] <SamB> TabAtkins: anyway, .dir-locals.el is your friend!
  289. # [04:18] <zewt> i guess the most important thing to remember about code style is: it's not the most important thing
  290. # [04:19] <caitp> i haven't landed anything in webkit, just blink, so I can't recall
  291. # [04:20] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@210.213.57.70) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  292. # [04:20] <SamB> I like the coding style rules for the GDB testsuite
  293. # [04:21] <zewt> i assume it's gnu
  294. # [04:21] <SamB> where there *are* no rules for the programs to run GDB on, because some of GDB's bugs might actually depend on coding style ...
  295. # [04:22] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: :tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak)
  296. # [04:23] <TabAtkins> That's horrifying.
  297. # [04:24] <caitp> it's only horrifying when you realize contractors for boeing might be debugging code on it
  298. # [04:25] <caitp> or toyota or pick your favourite
  299. # [04:25] <MikeSmith> what specifically is being discussed at the "Web Input" meeting? https://twitter.com/jacobrossi/status/481173650523955200
  300. # [04:26] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@210.213.57.70)
  301. # [04:26] <caitp> input/touch/pointers/etc?
  302. # [04:27] * Joins: poona (~poona@unaffiliated/poona)
  303. # [04:27] <MikeSmith> must be I guess
  304. # [04:29] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014AprJun/0084.html it seems
  305. # [04:30] <SamB> TabAtkins: well, you know, GNU have a lot of rules
  306. # [04:30] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@87.115.153.149) (Remote host closed the connection)
  307. # [04:30] <SamB> I don't expect the indentation rules are actually involved here
  308. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> ah good TabAtkins was there
  309. # [04:30] <MikeSmith> and I see hober in the photo
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  311. # [04:31] <TabAtkins> A bunch of things, trying to align on controversial cross-browser topics.
  312. # [04:32] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: yeah I'm perusing https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C6P3Mhza1jdMJyP9G6fr7n7zcXrCmwih1o2xohFVEhc/edit now
  313. # [04:33] * bufferino is now known as kiora
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  317. # [04:36] <TabAtkins> Yeah, Max took good notes.
  318. # [04:37] <MikeSmith> threaded input handling..
  319. # [04:37] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@guest.schibsted.no)
  320. # [04:38] <MikeSmith> the overview at https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1VYfCKye4TM-QiR_hiLvwYxhci_xc5YcA4oZxtrp2qes/edit#slide=id.p is nice
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  323. # [04:45] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: is there implied optional whitespace anywhere in CSS syntax? (similar to the way there is in grammars in some IETF specs, e.g., HTTP headers
  324. # [04:45] * Quits: jdaggett (~jdaggett@103.5.142.42) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  325. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: I mean, if I'm looking at a railroad diagram for a certain thing and it doesn't explicitly show whitespace as being allowed in some particular place, does that that mean the corresponding parsing algorithm for that thing does not expect to find whitespace there?
  326. # [04:47] <TabAtkins> Yes, V&U defines all this.
  327. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> ah ok
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  329. # [04:48] <TabAtkins> Not that railroad diagrams are non-normative.
  330. # [04:48] <TabAtkins> Note
  331. # [04:48] <TabAtkins> That yes was to your first question, not the second one.
  332. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: roger that
  333. # [04:49] * MikeSmith finds http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-values/#component-whitespace
  334. # [04:49] <TabAtkins> Yup, that's it.
  335. # [04:49] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: I guess I expected to find that stated in teh Syntax spec instead of V&U
  336. # [04:50] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: cool, thanks
  337. # [04:51] <TabAtkins> Syntax does the core syntax, not the grammar of actual properties.
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  339. # [04:51] <MikeSmith> ah ok
  340. # [04:51] <TabAtkins> But also, the location is idiot historical.
  341. # [04:51] <TabAtkins> Partly
  342. # [04:52] <MikeSmith> sure
  343. # [04:52] * Quits: poona (~poona@unaffiliated/poona) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  344. # [04:53] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: so now I understand about WS among components but the thing I'm wondering about specifically is about WS around delimiters
  345. # [04:53] <TabAtkins> Delimiters?
  346. # [04:54] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: I mean, e.g., parens in functions -- calc(1px + 3px) vs calc( 1px + 3px )
  347. # [04:54] <TabAtkins> No rule there.
  348. # [04:54] * Quits: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@130.193.24.135) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  349. # [04:55] <TabAtkins> Calc is a bit of a special case, but yeah, arguments to a function obey the same "component value" rules.
  350. # [04:56] <MikeSmith> ah OK sure, yeah, the WS in this case is space around the components, I see
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  352. # [04:58] * MikeSmith should write stuff out first before asking, since it's quite clear now when he actually looks at it written out
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  519. # [15:56] <annevk> I hate these XMLHttpRequest state bugs :-(
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  596. # [18:35] <JonathanNeal> Has anyone experimented with JavaScript generated markup how Google interprets it for search results? I’m thinking about entire pages of generated markup.
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  601. # [18:46] <annevk> Domenic: when is it good to use null?
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  607. # [18:49] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Google hasn't been very detailed with what's happening, but they did announce recently that they're starting to execute at least some JS for indexing purposes.
  608. # [18:51] <JonathanNeal> Yes, clamstar was kind enough to share this with me http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2014/05/understanding-web-pages-better.html
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  613. # [18:58] <Domenic> annevk: kind of fuzzy, but in general it's a signifier for "there is purposefully nothing here," instead of "this was left unset" (which is `undefined`).
  614. # [18:59] <Domenic> E.g. it seems good that querySelector('asdf') returns `null`. If it returned `undefined`, that's what all functions without return values return, so it's kind of saying "I was supposed to return something, but there was nothing there."
  615. # [19:00] <Domenic> This whole distinction is kind of Stockholm-syndromey. I often catch myself saying "it makes perfect sense! How did we live without the distinction before!" And then I step back and say, WTF, clearly this language has changed your brain.
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  626. # [19:23] <annevk> Domenic: so the problem with that is if you start returning null, you want to accept null too
  627. # [19:23] <annevk> Domenic: so you can't really make it a rule that methods accepting null should be retrofitted to use undefined/optional behavior instead
  628. # [19:24] <annevk> Domenic: e.g. node.insertBefore(..., otherNode.previousSibling)
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  643. # [20:05] <Domenic> disagree
  644. # [20:05] <Domenic> null should throw in that situation
  645. # [20:05] <Domenic> undefined is a default-value signaler
  646. # [20:06] <Domenic> there's no sensible "default value" for a node that you want to insert
  647. # [20:06] <Domenic> annevk ^
  648. # [20:06] <Domenic> (both null and undefined should throw in that situation)
  649. # [20:07] <annevk> append seems reasonable
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  651. # [20:08] <annevk> (which is what DOM does)
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  655. # [20:14] <Domenic> it seems reasonable if you're trying to trigger the default value, but it's more likely a bug if you're trying to pass in document.querySelector('#tpyo')
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  660. # [20:28] <annevk> E.g. node.prepend(input) would be node.insertBefore(input, node.firstChild)
  661. # [20:30] <annevk> TabAtkins: with the addition of rebeccapurple various notes around http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-color/#named-colors are no longer accurate
  662. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, noticed that.
  663. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> Was wondering if/how to change that.
  664. # [20:30] <annevk> TabAtkins: removing the notes about X11, HTML, and SVG might make sense
  665. # [20:31] <annevk> TabAtkins: maybe saying that most of them came from X11 in a note, with a pointer to that email that does all the archeology
  666. # [20:31] <TabAtkins> Yeah, was thinking about that. It's a great email!
  667. # [20:31] <annevk> is
  668. # [20:33] <Manishearth> annevk: around?
  669. # [20:34] <annevk> Manishearth: sorta
  670. # [20:34] <Manishearth> Okay, in http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#interface-formdata, in the `create an entry` bit, the spec seems to rewrite the `value` argument multiple times
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  672. # [20:34] <Manishearth> Is that intentional?
  673. # [20:35] <Manishearth> This affects step 4, since it says "If value is a File and filename is given" -- `value` will always be a File, since it was made a File in the previous step
  674. # [20:35] <Manishearth> (since it was overwritten)
  675. # [20:36] <annevk> it can also be a string
  676. # [20:36] <annevk> and yes, it is intentional that in case it was a Blob, that step is applied
  677. # [20:36] <Manishearth> annevk: `value` is a Blob
  678. # [20:36] <annevk> not necessarily
  679. # [20:36] <Manishearth> (a File is also a Blob)
  680. # [20:36] <annevk> agreed
  681. # [20:37] <annevk> value is either a string or a Blob
  682. # [20:37] <Manishearth> so in step 3, "If value is a Blob, set value to a new File object", we are overwriting value?
  683. # [20:37] <annevk> yes
  684. # [20:37] <Manishearth> oh, I get it, this is used elsewhere too
  685. # [20:38] <Manishearth> (for the append() and set() where a DOMString is passed)
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  687. # [20:38] <Manishearth> er, ScalarValueString
  688. # [20:38] <Manishearth> thanks
  689. # [20:38] <annevk> step 3 should not apply if value is a File however
  690. # [20:38] <annevk> that could be clarified
  691. # [20:39] <Manishearth> annevk: "If value is a Blob but not a File?"
  692. # [20:39] <annevk> yeah
  693. # [20:39] <annevk> making that edit now
  694. # [20:39] <Manishearth> okay, thanks
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  696. # [20:40] <annevk> done
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  719. # [21:11] <IZh> Hi. Is there API to query file upload progress from JS?
  720. # [21:12] <caitp> what kind of file upload progress?
  721. # [21:12] <IZh> Percentage
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  723. # [21:13] <caitp> you can look at XMLHttpRequestUpload progress events, but that obviously is restricted to xmlhttprequest
  724. # [21:13] <caitp> and doesn't work for like, <form method="POST">
  725. # [21:13] <IZh> Lots of sites do it by using AJAX to query temporary file size from the server. But I would like to ask the browser itself.
  726. # [21:15] <IZh> Of course, I mean POST.
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  730. # [21:16] <caitp> I mean, it would work for XHR (unless you're using like IE9 or under), but would not work for form submission
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  732. # [21:17] <IZh> I think it would be great to implement some events for form's uploading progress. Because all modern sites need to display the progress.
  733. # [21:17] <caitp> couldn't hurt to ask if browsers are interested in doing that
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  736. # [21:21] <IZh> I don't know whether they are, but it could make life easier.
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  742. # [21:38] <caitp> well you might want to ask around here (there are some browser people hanging around), and maybe file a bug on the appropriate draft, which would probably be web-apps
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  751. # [21:52] <Domenic> nah it'd be whatwg@whatwg.org
  752. # [21:52] <Domenic> this is about the HTML spec
  753. # [21:52] <Domenic> if it's about <form>
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  755. # [21:55] <caitp> yeah, try that
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  780. # [22:23] <annevk> IZh: the problem is that <form> causes navigate
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  782. # [22:24] <annevk> IZh: which replaces the current document
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  784. # [22:24] <annevk> IZh: events for navigation process don't make much sense if the document (and its associated global) change
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  792. # [22:31] <caitp> it doesn't necessarily need to cause navigation, though, I think you'd make a lot of people happy if they could just <form method="POST" action="someroute" onprogress="updateWidget()">, heh
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  794. # [22:32] <caitp> but I'm not going to get into that little discussion
  795. # [22:32] <annevk> That would cause navigation
  796. # [22:32] <caitp> it would _now_
  797. # [22:32] <caitp> but it doesn't necessarily need to, if you have some attribute that says "don't navigate plz"
  798. # [22:32] <annevk> If you want a new kind of form submission behavior that would be a different discussion
  799. # [22:33] <caitp> I'm not the one that wants it, I'm just saying it's not really beyond the realm of the reasonable
  800. # [22:33] <caitp> it's doable, and it wouldn't likely break any existing apps
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  802. # [22:34] <annevk> Sure, but it's a different feature from progress
  803. # [22:34] <caitp> whether anyone actually wants to do it or not is a different discussion
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  805. # [22:36] <smaug____> ojan: does blink have usage data for mutation events
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  807. # [22:37] <smaug____> in gecko the data is currently measuring mutation events used in a window, and of 2.1G windows 5.5M have had mutation event listeners
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  815. # [22:43] <Domenic> Loving this WebIDL thread
  816. # [22:44] <SamB> smaug____: any idea how had NoScript installed
  817. # [22:44] <SamB> +many
  818. # [22:45] <SamB> or anything of that nature
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  823. # [22:53] <smaug____> SamB: no idea
  824. # [22:53] <smaug____> does it use mutation events?
  825. # [22:54] <SamB> actually, I was just figuring sites wouldn't get a chance to use them if noscript blocked the script
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  827. # [22:54] <smaug____> oh, those might not get mutation events recorded
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  855. # [23:37] * Quits: IZh (~IZh@0897578511.static.corbina.ru) (Remote host closed the connection)
  856. # [23:38] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@sccc-66-78-236-243.smartcity.com) (Client Quit)
  857. # [23:43] * Quits: abinader (sid21713@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mktvygpclnbarlko)
  858. # [23:44] * Quits: JosephSilber (~Joseph@ool-44c3e80a.static.optonline.net) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  859. # [23:45] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@2620:101:80fb:224:30dd:6d3e:7683:e9e2) (Remote host closed the connection)
  860. # [23:45] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  861. # [23:47] * Joins: ehsan_ (~ehsan@2620:101:80fb:224:596:e83d:2cdf:a05a)
  862. # [23:47] * Quits: ehsan (~ehsan@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  863. # [23:48] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@sccc-66-78-236-243.smartcity.com)
  864. # [23:50] * Joins: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.44.231)
  865. # [23:52] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  866. # [23:58] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@sccc-66-78-236-243.smartcity.com) (Quit: Snuggling with the puppies)
  867. # Session Close: Wed Jun 25 00:00:01 2014

The end :)