/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-06-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 26 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: KevinMarks (~yaaic@2607:fb90:270a:86aa:5211:9f8f:8d98:6e9e)
  4. # [00:02] <jamesr_> if it changes UA behavior that isn't observable from the web that doesn't sound like a good idea
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  6. # [00:02] <jamesr_> it'd be weird for the HTML spec to start making statements about browser UI
  7. # [00:05] <Hixie> Domenic: what kerfuffle?
  8. # [00:05] * Quits: abinader (sid21713@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-okrgtzvtxmvaevjd)
  9. # [00:06] <Domenic> Hixie: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/nzRY-h_-_ig/KR3XWn73tDoJ ?
  10. # [00:06] <Hixie> i wouldn't call that a kerfuffle, but ok
  11. # [00:06] <Hixie> the solution with that kerfuffle is easy
  12. # [00:07] <Hixie> blink should just support the property names the other browsers used
  13. # [00:07] <Domenic> ok. so they should be specced?
  14. # [00:07] <Hixie> all meta values should be specced
  15. # [00:07] <Domenic> do you think the wiki is sufficient then?
  16. # [00:08] <Domenic> it seems to easy to just create a new proprietary meta thing and then say "we specced it on the wiki" without ever actually trying to collaborate across browsers
  17. # [00:08] <Hixie> it's easy to just create a proprietary element and do that too
  18. # [00:08] <Hixie> or to create something in a closed silo ignoring feedback from others
  19. # [00:08] <Hixie> even if it's not proprietary
  20. # [00:09] <Hixie> or to disagree with someone and just shut them out instead of addressing their feedback
  21. # [00:09] <Hixie> there's all kinds of ways that you can do an end-run around community-driven spec development
  22. # [00:09] <Hixie> it's life
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  24. # [00:10] <Hixie> changing the spec to say that things have to be in the spec won't change anything
  25. # [00:10] <Hixie> (if it did, we wouldn't have the stupid stuff with ruby extensions, e.g.)
  26. # [00:10] <Domenic> sure. but i would rather people feel bad about creating something proprietary, than feel good about creating something spec-compliant (via the wiki).
  27. # [00:10] <Hixie> people won't feel bad
  28. # [00:10] <Domenic> well, the spec currently says "it must be in the wiki"
  29. # [00:11] <Hixie> yeah, and no vendor until chrome put it in the wiki
  30. # [00:11] <Domenic> and that compelled action
  31. # [00:11] <Domenic> hmm
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  33. # [00:11] <Hixie> it compelled action the third time it was implemented
  34. # [00:11] <Hixie> with a third name
  35. # [00:11] <Hixie> that's hardly a success
  36. # [00:11] <Hixie> it's a 100% failure rate
  37. # [00:11] <Hixie> 66% failure to register, 33% failure to reuse an existing term
  38. # [00:11] <Domenic> fair. maybe we can't push our luck.
  39. # [00:11] <Hixie> making the barrier higher certainly won't improve matters
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  46. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The problem here is that "the spec only requires us to put it on the wiki" was being used as an *explicit justification* for not talking it over with other browsers. It was total bullshit, of course, but having the spec at least address that would have made the bullshit more obvious, and thus less likely to have been stated embarrasingly in public.
  47. # [00:33] <Hixie> the spec requires more than that for a value to be "ratified"
  48. # [00:33] <Hixie> feel free to just mark the value as "discontinued"
  49. # [00:33] <Hixie> since it has received wide peer review and been found wanting
  50. # [00:33] <Hixie> but in any case, changing how the registry system works is something i'd like to do. it's been pending on feedback from hsivonen for a while.
  51. # [00:34] <gsnedders> …what kind of version name is "L"?
  52. # [00:35] <Domenic> Codename for some dessert that starts with L, I assume
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  54. # [00:37] <Philip`> I guess they learned a lesson from using "KLP" as the codename for the previous version, so now they just use a single letter until the marketing people pick the real name
  55. # [00:37] <gsnedders> …what kind of version name is "KLP"?
  56. # [00:38] <Hixie> Key Lime Pie, later KitKat
  57. # [00:38] <Philip`> The abbreviation of Key Lime Pie, from before theyrealised how much everyone loves Kit Kats
  58. # [00:38] <Philip`> s// /
  59. # [00:39] <gsnedders> Guess that makes more sense than XP
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  61. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Our versions are always consecutive letters, given dessert names at release.
  62. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Dunno why we haven't announced the name yet, though. I dont' even know it.
  63. # [00:41] * TabAtkins hopes it's Limoncello, so we'll get some in the microkitchens.
  64. # [00:41] <Philip`> (There are still lots of references "klp" in the Android repositories, which is needlessly confusing if you only know the actual release names)
  65. # [00:42] <Philip`> (Then again, there were three separate Jellybean versions, so needless confusion seems to be a habit)
  66. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Indeed.
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  68. # [00:45] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: I'm now imagining a Limoncello launch party, where, uh, the Limoncello flows freely. That would end badly.
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  87. # [00:59] * jamesr_ is hoping for Lime Pie
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  110. # [01:44] <roc> TabAtkins_: right
  111. # [01:44] <TabAtkins_> roc: kk
  112. # [01:44] <roc> annevk: DOMRectList has existed for a very long time. It started off as an IE invention for getClientRects, and then we standardized it.
  113. # [01:45] <roc> annevk: it is not live, and it's entirely possible we can make getClientRects return sequence<DOMRect>.
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  137. # [03:13] <montecfel> Hmm.
  138. # [03:14] <montecfel> It is not possible to invoke fullscreen unless the user clicks?
  139. # [03:14] <montecfel> I tried to make Alt + Enter go into fullscreen, but it doesn't work. It only works when there is a click event.
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  141. # [03:15] <montecfel> You can probably ignore that.
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  144. # [03:23] <montecfel> "Request for full-screen was denied because Element.mozRequestFullScreen() was not called from inside a short running user-generated event handler."
  145. # [03:23] <montecfel> Huh? :/
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  147. # [03:27] <caitp> it doesn't look like there's anything normative about disallowing that outside of event handlers, montecfel
  148. # [03:28] <montecfel> Well... hrm.
  149. # [03:28] <montecfel> How do I detect if a modifier key was pressed together with the e.keyCode?
  150. # [03:28] <caitp> more craziness from moco? why not!
  151. # [03:28] <montecfel> caitp: ?
  152. # [03:28] <caitp> oh, I know the answer to that, hang on
  153. # [03:28] <montecfel> moco = Mozilla Corporation?
  154. # [03:29] <montecfel> Yes, they sure are being very do-everything-except-for-working-on-the-actual-browser-y lately.
  155. # [03:29] <caitp> the keyboardevent interface has some properties for modifier keys, like altKey
  156. # [03:29] <montecfel> Lately = last 5-10 years?
  157. # [03:29] <montecfel> Yeah...
  158. # [03:29] <montecfel> Is Ctrl + Enter or Alt + Enter the classic "go to fullscreen" or "go out from fullscreen" key combo?
  159. # [03:29] <montecfel> Alt + Enter, I believe.
  160. # [03:30] <montecfel> Do you mean it's e.altKey?
  161. # [03:30] <caitp> yeah
  162. # [03:30] <montecfel> And it's just a boolean?
  163. # [03:30] <caitp> I think that's from DOM 2 or something
  164. # [03:31] <montecfel> Finally something that makes sense!
  165. # [03:32] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins_: you'll probably be unhappy to know that when I land @sizes checking support in the validator, it's going to accept pretty much anything within calc(...), because the kludgey way I handle it for now only just looks for "calc" followed by balanced parens
  166. # [03:32] <caitp> guess i'm wrong, dom3
  167. # [03:33] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins_: for the validator I really can't justify the time needed to stop and write a full CSS tokenizer to handle this one single attribute in the entire language that would benefit from it, as far as conformance checking goes
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  169. # [03:34] <MikeSmith> @sizes is seeming more and more to me like a layering violation
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  171. # [03:35] <MikeSmith> not that I'm a purist. I guess it's probably a justified violation in this case. But still it's punching holes.
  172. # [03:44] <MikeSmith> Hixie: Domenic I wouldn't call the brand-color thing a kerfuffle either. I'd call it a wilful abuse of the spirit of requirements. The arrogance displayed in that thread is worthy of bad-old-days Microsoft or whatever other "evil" incarnantion of some org just flipping the bird to everybody else
  173. # [03:45] <MikeSmith> I suspect we probably have more instances of that kind of stuff to look forward to
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  175. # [03:47] <a-ja> MikeSmith: haven't read followups to that discussion in a few days....new developments?
  176. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> the rationalization around it that followed was even more disappointing than the initial act of abusing the implicit contract
  177. # [03:47] <Hixie> the worst imho is that this was the third instance of this
  178. # [03:47] <Hixie> for this very feature
  179. # [03:47] <MikeSmith> a-ja: no I've not read any followups to it during the last week or so.. Not sure if there have been any
  180. # [03:47] <Hixie> so three vendors had the same arrogance and missing-the-point-ness
  181. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> Hixie: well, that too
  182. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> that exactly
  183. # [03:48] <a-ja> MikeSmith: agree with your "evil" categorization, fwiw
  184. # [03:48] <Hixie> which i kinda take as an indication of failure on the part of standards advocacy :-(
  185. # [03:48] <MikeSmith> Hixie: well, we sort of expect that everybody will be a good actor
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  187. # [03:50] <SamB> I'm missing the context :-(
  188. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> a-ja: evil is what organizations other than yours do
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  190. # [03:51] <a-ja> heh
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  192. # [03:52] <MikeSmith> SamB: thread on blink-dev about an intent-to-ship for meta@name=brand-colorg
  193. # [03:52] <MikeSmith> *color
  194. # [03:54] <SamB> Hixie: so this is the THIRD time somebody has done ... what exactly?
  195. # [03:54] <Hixie> SamB: invented a proprietary value to colour system ui for the page
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  197. # [03:55] <SamB> Hixie: ah
  198. # [03:55] <SamB> Hixie: so like IE's scrollbar thing?
  199. # [03:55] <Hixie> yeah
  200. # [03:55] <Hixie> specifically, doing so without getting other vendors to buy in
  201. # [03:55] <SamB> what was the other one?
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  203. # [03:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: anyway I agree with Domenic's proposal about "if your meta tag changes user agent behavior, it needs to be in this spec" or some such language
  204. # [03:57] * Hixie shrugs
  205. # [03:57] <Hixie> i don't think it would make that much difference
  206. # [03:57] <Hixie> but in any case
  207. # [03:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie: also btw and fwiw even if we had implemented your proposal for validator refinements for meta@name, I don't think it would have prevented this case -- or this set of three cases
  208. # [03:57] <Hixie> i want to change that whole extension model
  209. # [03:58] <Hixie> and i'm just waiting for hsivonen's feedback
  210. # [03:58] <Hixie> yeah, that's good feedback on the proposal
  211. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> Hixie: feedback to which proposal? Your message at the beginning of the year wasn't a proposal for changing the whole extension model, was it?
  212. # [03:59] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I mean what feedback are you waiting on from Henri
  213. # [03:59] <caitp> don't worry dude, in the future web compat won't matter because we'll be making people write 12 versions of their applications for hundreds of different smartphones, tablets, gps machines, laundrey machines, etc, and nobody will even remember a time when the same document looked more or less the same on a different device
  214. # [04:00] <SamB> caitp: you have a funny way of beginning that sentence
  215. # [04:01] <caitp> you have to read it with just the right tone to really get it
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  217. # [04:03] <SamB> oh, now I see
  218. # [04:03] <MikeSmith> caitp: on the plus side, I guess we can look forward to people's sigs saying "Sent from my laundry machine."
  219. # [04:03] <SamB> the other two times are listed RIGHT IN THE FIRST DAMN POST and they can't see this is a bad idea?
  220. # [04:05] <Hixie> MikeSmith: it was a start to a proposal, but yeah, not a complete one.
  221. # [04:05] <Hixie> MikeSmith: that's what i'd like to see hsivonen's feedback on, though
  222. # [04:06] <SamB> From: "'Alex Russell' via blink-dev" <blink-dev@chromium.org>
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  224. # [04:06] * SamB wonders wth the "via blink-dev" bit is for
  225. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> SamB: I think http://goo.gl/mxQwE pretty well captures their attitude toward what other people think about it being a bad idea
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  227. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> SamB: I think that just indicates the message was sent from the Web interface
  228. # [04:07] <MikeSmith> SamB: rather than by e-mail
  229. # [04:08] <SamB> why are they poluting my gnus view with such inane distractions
  230. # [04:09] * MikeSmith adds SamB to the list of crazy people like hober and Haakon that use emacs for reading mail
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  235. # [04:09] <SamB> MikeSmith: well, the first post looked terrible on gmane classic, so I foolishly hoped it would look better in gnus
  236. # [04:10] <SamB> anyway, it's not mail, it's news, obviously
  237. # [04:10] <MikeSmith> nothing is obvious to me when it comes to emacs
  238. # [04:12] <MikeSmith> Hixie: also btw and fwiw at this point, I recently did at least update the validator to quit having the list of meta@name and a|link@rel values hardcoded. They are now pulled in a build time from http://help.whatwg.org/extensions/meta-name/ and http://help.whatwg.org/extensions/a-rel/ and http://help.whatwg.org/extensions/link-rel/
  239. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> Hixie: which are just generated by python scripts that scrape the wiki
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  242. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> Hixie: so they're not updated real time but at least it's progress over what we were doing before
  243. # [04:14] <Hixie> MikeSmith: cool
  244. # [04:16] <roc> montecfel: FWIW, as one of the gazillions of people Mozilla people working on the browser, I somewhat resent the suggestion that we aren't.
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  247. # [04:24] <montecfel> roc: What about all the weird projects that Mozilla are announcing all the time? Why is the browser and all the issues that still exist never heard of, basically?
  248. # [04:25] <montecfel> This latest IDE-in-the-browser is very "inner system"-y.
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  252. # [04:40] <roc> What you hear about is not entirely under our control
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  254. # [04:41] <roc> if you look at https://hacks.mozilla.org/, you will see a lot of articles there about devtools and new browser engine features
  255. # [04:42] <roc> if you're more interested in the front end, there was a major UI change that shipped recently that you may have heard about
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  257. # [04:43] <caitp> they are working on the browser, and lots of other stuff too, credit where credits due
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  264. # [05:08] <MikeSmith> yeah as far as any perceived never-heard-of problem, I can't see that there's any shortage of information going out about new gecko browser-engine features
  265. # [05:08] <MikeSmith> https://hacks.mozilla.org/ and the related twitter account are a great source of info
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  268. # [05:12] <MikeSmith> and as far as announcements about the IDE-in-the-browser thing, that doesn't seem to me at all like a weird project at all. Clearly it's something intended to meet needs of the same web devs that care about the core browser-engine features
  269. # [05:18] <SamB> I'd suggest a SWANK backend, if SLIME would ever get its ass in gear and at least pretend to have a stable protocol ...
  270. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> SamB: SLIME and SWANK are real things, or some kind of troll you're trying to catch me with
  271. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> SamB: ah, emacs
  272. # [05:21] <SamB> yeah, emacs
  273. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> you got me
  274. # [05:21] <SamB> real things
  275. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> I feel for it
  276. # [05:21] <MikeSmith> nice troll
  277. # [05:22] <MikeSmith> emacs-rolled me
  278. # [05:23] <SamB> Slime is a CL IDE for Emacs that's better than the builtin support for Emacs Lisp. And it's been abused to work with lots of things that aren't CL, too ...
  279. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> ah OK
  280. # [05:24] <MikeSmith> that's novel, emacs being abused to do things that are better handled with other things
  281. # [05:28] <jory> Mmmmm, emacs... delicious.
  282. # [05:34] <SamB> I'm not actually aware of a more fertile ground for mail/news implementations than Emacs; are you?
  283. # [05:35] <SamB> nevermind that it comes with not one but TWO irc clients ;-P
  284. # [05:35] <jory> Of course, "It's all just text"
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  305. # [07:23] <caitp> having fun with the promise implementation? :p
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  307. # [07:27] <Domenic> caitp: awesome response time
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  383. # [13:21] <smaug____> Hixie: curious, why http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/history.html#read-media says "should". Any reason to not "must"? (Someone was just about to change image document content in Gecko and said that isn't against of the spec because of that "should")
  384. # [13:21] * smaug____ r-'ed that patch
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  386. # [13:28] <Ms2ger> smaug____, well, then they don't know what "SHOULD" means :)
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  403. # [14:38] <SimonSapin> must (but we know you won’t)
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  430. # [16:03] <mounir> Domenic: ping
  431. # [16:03] <Domenic> mounir: pong
  432. # [16:04] <mounir> Domenic: regarding https://github.com/w3c/screen-orientation/issues/13
  433. # [16:05] <mounir> Domenic: I'm not sure how we can avoid screen.orientation != screen.orientation (comment 4)
  434. # [16:05] <mounir> Domenic: unless we do very complicated things
  435. # [16:05] <mounir> Domenic: is it something you care about?
  436. # [16:05] <Domenic> mounir: yes, it is something I care about very much
  437. # [16:06] <Domenic> mounir: I am happy to write up the spec text if necessary. We need to set an example on how to do this for other specs, since WebIDL is deficient.
  438. # [16:06] <mounir> Domenic: screen.orientation would be an Object if I understand correctly, right?
  439. # [16:06] <mounir> Domenic: but in order to have equality, we would need to return exactly the same object
  440. # [16:07] <Domenic> mounir: yep. Just think of how you would implement this in JavaScript.
  441. # [16:08] <mounir> Domenic: so, doing that for screen.orientation isn't much of a pain
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  443. # [16:08] <mounir> Domenic: making screen.lockOrientation() promise being fulfiled with an object that is equal to screen.orientation when they are the same is... more of a pain
  444. # [16:08] <Ms2ger> Domenic, no
  445. # [16:09] <Domenic> mounir: I don't care about that as much, but it also seems pretty easy
  446. # [16:09] <Ms2ger> Domenic, if IDL is deficient, fix IDL
  447. # [16:09] <mounir> Ms2ger: might take years :)
  448. # [16:09] <Domenic> mounir: just say "resolve p with the value of this.orientation"
  449. # [16:09] <Domenic> Ms2ger: fair. I have time for that now.
  450. # [16:09] <mounir> Domenic: this.orientation is updated after the promise is resolved ;)
  451. # [16:10] <Domenic> mounir: why?
  452. # [16:10] <Ms2ger> Thanks
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  454. # [16:11] <mounir> Domenic: to prevent orientationchange event handlers to fire before
  455. # [16:11] <Domenic> mounir: what is the exact sequence? orientationchange fires, promise resolves, value changes?
  456. # [16:11] <mounir> no
  457. # [16:11] <mounir> promise resolved
  458. # [16:11] <mounir> value changes
  459. # [16:11] <Domenic> It seems wierd that lockOrientation().then(() => screen.orientation is wrong)
  460. # [16:11] <mounir> event fires
  461. # [16:12] <Domenic> ok. why not make it value changes, promise resolved, event fires
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  463. # [16:15] <annevk> and from the same task, pretty please
  464. # [16:15] <mounir> yeah, I guess we could do that
  465. # [16:15] <annevk> (promise will learn about it after the event that way, but that seems fine)
  466. # [16:15] <mounir> that's going to be a pain to implement...
  467. # [16:15] <annevk> mounir: why?
  468. # [16:15] <Domenic> :( why are promises so hard to use from C++
  469. # [16:16] <mounir> hmm, I would prefer to have the promise being aware of the change before the event
  470. # [16:16] <mounir> Domenic: it's not because of promises, it's because of locking
  471. # [16:16] <Domenic> oh that's good to hear
  472. # [16:16] <mounir> Domenic: promises are not hard to use
  473. # [16:16] <annevk> you change the value, resolve the promise, dispatch the event
  474. # [16:16] <Domenic> they are hard to use in Blink, apparently.
  475. # [16:16] <annevk> in one task
  476. # [16:16] <annevk> at the start of the task the event listeners will run
  477. # [16:16] <annevk> at the end of the task any registered promise observers will run
  478. # [16:16] <mounir> Domenic: I work on Blink...
  479. # [16:17] <annevk> (as a microtask)
  480. # [16:17] <Domenic> mounir: I'm so confused
  481. # [16:17] <Domenic> mounir: also, hi coworker!
  482. # [16:17] <mounir> ahaha
  483. # [16:17] <Domenic> mounir: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/223#issuecomment-46138414 is what I was referring to I guess
  484. # [16:17] <annevk> the way promise.then() works you can't really notify the promise observers before the event
  485. # [16:18] <Domenic> but yes, annevk's spec text will give the observable order you desire
  486. # [16:18] <mounir> annevk: I prefer to have the promise fire before so it's clear that the orientationchange happens because of the lock
  487. # [16:18] <Domenic> since events are synchronous and promises are asynchronous
  488. # [16:18] <annevk> we had this thing about synchronous invocation of promise observers but that died
  489. # [16:18] <Domenic> wait, i'm confusing myself
  490. # [16:18] <annevk> promise observers are asynchronous
  491. # [16:18] <Domenic> annevk, your spec text will result in the wrong observable order, right?
  492. # [16:18] <annevk> or whatever the term is
  493. # [16:19] * Domenic clearly needs more coffee
  494. # [16:19] <annevk> Domenic: event listeners first, then the promise in the end-of-task microtask
  495. # [16:19] <Domenic> annevk: right, which is the opposite of what mounir wants
  496. # [16:19] <annevk> you can't get what mounir wants
  497. # [16:19] <Domenic> yes you can
  498. # [16:19] <mounir> annevk: I want ice cream!
  499. # [16:20] <annevk> mounir: we have some here ;)
  500. # [16:20] <Domenic> resolve p with this.orientation. Upon fulfillment of p, fire event "orientationchange"...
  501. # [16:20] <annevk> not upon fulfillment, upon p firing it's observers
  502. # [16:20] * mounir dies a little bit inside
  503. # [16:20] <annevk> that could work, do we have easy language for that?
  504. # [16:21] <mounir> that will be even harder to implement
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  506. # [16:21] <Domenic> annevk: "upon fulfillment" is the same as "upon p firing it's observers" :) https://github.com/w3ctag/promises-guide#reacting-to-promises
  507. # [16:21] <annevk> Domenic is suggesting "value = x; promise.resolve(x); promise.then(dispatchEventForValueChange)"
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  509. # [16:22] <annevk> which seems like a nice pattern for when you have both promises and events
  510. # [16:22] <annevk> but a bit more icky I guess since promises are JavaScript and everything else is C
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  517. # [16:27] <mounir> could we do something like this:
  518. # [16:27] <mounir> when a lock is done we resolve the promise with a value
  519. # [16:28] <mounir> when orientation changes, we update screen.orientation and queue a task to fire an event
  520. # [16:28] <mounir> that way, we have screen.orientation changed, the promise fires then the event, right?
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  522. # [16:28] <Domenic> domain question: what is the diffference between "lock is done" and "orientation changes"?
  523. # [16:29] <mounir> Domenic: those are different concepts
  524. # [16:29] <mounir> that's why implementation-wise it's painful to link them
  525. # [16:29] <Domenic> ok. but in the lockOrientation() case, how are they connected?
  526. # [16:29] <Domenic> I see
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  529. # [16:29] <mounir> Domenic: I can change the orientation by turning my phone
  530. # [16:29] <mounir> Domenic: I can lockOrientation() twice in a row
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  532. # [16:29] <mounir> and have an orientationchange that will not resolve the lock
  533. # [16:29] <mounir> then the next one will
  534. # [16:30] <Domenic> what does "resolve the lock" mean
  535. # [16:30] <mounir> Domenic: the lock is applied
  536. # [16:30] <Domenic> hmm hmm
  537. # [16:30] <Domenic> OK here is a hack that would work, I think
  538. # [16:31] <Domenic> And minimizes complexity and coupling
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  540. # [16:31] <Domenic> lockOrientation(): when lock is done, resolve the promise
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  542. # [16:32] <Domenic> when orientation changes: change this.orientation, queue a microtask to queue a task to fire an event
  543. # [16:32] <Domenic> and define ordering so that "lock is done" happens after "orientation changes"
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  545. # [16:32] <mounir> hmm
  546. # [16:33] <mounir> that's roughly what I said above, isn't it? ;)
  547. # [16:33] <mounir> I guess we agree
  548. # [16:33] <Domenic> upon re-reading, I think it is :)
  549. # [16:33] <mounir> \o/
  550. # [16:33] <Domenic> it might be important to say "queue a microtask to queue a task" instead of just "queue a task"
  551. # [16:34] <Domenic> I would have to re-check how browser turns are specced to be sure
  552. # [16:34] <mounir> I will ask you to review that the PR ;)
  553. # [16:34] <Domenic> In either case a non-normative note about the intended ordering should probably be included
  554. # [16:34] <mounir> but before that, I shall have some fun and implement this... :)
  555. # [16:34] <Domenic> :D
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  557. # [16:36] <mounir> Domenic, annevk: thanks for your help :)
  558. # [16:36] <Domenic> mounir: thanks for caring about getting it right!
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  562. # [16:52] * annevk is still not sure he grasps the complete flow, will review later
  563. # [16:52] <annevk> Domenic: fetch() now no longer handles content codings automatically
  564. # [16:53] <Domenic> annevk: sweet
  565. # [16:53] <annevk> Domenic: still handles transfer codings and TLS of course
  566. # [16:53] <annevk> that was a tough change, but was sorta required anyway to fix progress events
  567. # [16:55] <annevk> JakeA: Fetch now has these open issues: structured cloning, and behavior of method
  568. # [16:55] <annevk> Domenic: I guess I should also offer some kind of 304-opt-out flag
  569. # [16:56] <Domenic> annevk: I guess I should continue along the structured cloning track
  570. # [16:56] <Domenic> annevk: modulo writing things up a bit more formally, it seems like cloning promises between realms works fine. time to think about cloning them to disk.
  571. # [16:56] <annevk> it's not blocking shipping most likely, but solving it would be good to make sure we don't end up with surprises later
  572. # [16:57] <annevk> I liked the message channel solution
  573. # [16:57] <Domenic> annevk: re 304, isn't the opt-out just not sending the conditional GET headers?
  574. # [16:58] <annevk> Domenic: so UAs add such headers, the opt out would be not getting a 200 back
  575. # [16:58] <Domenic> hmm
  576. # [16:58] <annevk> there's some magic post-processing going on there
  577. # [16:58] <Domenic> node's http client is much more raw in this respect, but that's not necessarily a good thing
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  579. # [16:59] <Domenic> i.e. http.get() doesn't add any headers you don't pass, and a 304 is just a 304, it doesn't get converted to a 200
  580. # [16:59] <annevk> Note that header setting in http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#http-network-or-cache-fetch is XXX
  581. # [16:59] <annevk> It doesn't set User-Agent, Date, etc.?
  582. # [16:59] <Domenic> I think it sets Date since that's required by the spec
  583. # [16:59] <Domenic> will check in a minute
  584. # [17:00] <Domenic> on the flip side, nobody has yet to my knowledge written a good browser-quality cache for node that handles that stuff automatically, so the raw-ness kind of sucks for a lot of use cases.
  585. # [17:00] <annevk> We can't do raw
  586. # [17:00] <annevk> But we could come close if that's desired
  587. # [17:00] <annevk> Data from node would be great
  588. # [17:00] <annevk> Domenic: maybe file a ticket with the data? on SW is fine, I'll link it al together
  589. # [17:01] <Domenic> yeah we should have this discussion on a ticket
  590. # [17:02] <JakeA> annevk: where are those issues documented?
  591. # [17:02] <annevk> JakeA: in the spec
  592. # [17:02] <annevk> JakeA: see the red markers
  593. # [17:02] <annevk> JakeA: there's also SW issues filed for them
  594. # [17:03] <annevk> JakeA: but nobody is looking at old SW issues other than me I think :/
  595. # [17:04] * annevk still has to check if the security model with SW and Response/Request is correct
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  598. # [17:06] <JakeA> annevk: a lot of that is my fault, my time got swallowed with I/O stuff. That's done at the end of this week.
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  604. # [17:25] <annevk> JakeA: nah man, there's like fifteen people involved in this effort
  605. # [17:25] <annevk> JakeA: that video was fun btw
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  611. # [17:41] <Domenic> http://www.w3.org/TR/encoding/ is not bad, as plagarism goes
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  613. # [17:41] <Domenic> the only improvements I could think of would be adding language along the lines of "this document is obsolete and is intended for use only by patent lawyers", and making the red box float in the center of the screen, not bottom.
  614. # [17:45] * gsnedders thinks someone just needs to come up with some reasonable RF policy for other specs
  615. # [17:45] <gsnedders> but the problem is getting people to agree to it
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  642. # [18:38] <annevk> Hixie: that email :-)
  643. # [18:38] <annevk> so true
  644. # [18:39] <Hixie> so tired of having to explain this over and over
  645. # [18:40] <caitp> explain it again, :)
  646. # [18:42] <annevk> Hixie: at some point Domenic will use his magic and capture it all in GitHub repo or some YouTube video
  647. # [18:46] <jgraham> The one about certification?
  648. # [18:47] * Joins: Maurice` (copyman@5ED5617C.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  649. # [18:49] <annevk> I guess the one about spec development
  650. # [18:49] <annevk> Well, hoping
  651. # [18:50] <jgraham> Which one?
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  654. # [18:53] <Hixie> i created this, with respect to the meta thing yesterday: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Best_Practices_for_Implementors
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  657. # [18:56] <annevk> jgraham: I thought you were rhetorical
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  659. # [18:58] <jgraham> annevk: I'm very confused
  660. # [18:59] <jgraham> I honestly don't know which email you were reading :)
  661. # [18:59] <annevk> jgraham: ooh, I thought you were making a comment about the fictional GitHub repo or YouTube video
  662. # [19:00] <annevk> jgraham: yes this started with that email
  663. # [19:00] <jgraham> which email?!
  664. # [19:00] <annevk> about certification
  665. # [19:00] <jgraham> Oh right
  666. # [19:00] <jgraham> Yeah
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  668. # [19:01] <annevk> Ooh look, a brand-color extension has been proposed
  669. # [19:01] <jgraham> So unfortunatley I think there's a >99% chance that email won't change Glenn's opinion and about a 90% chance it will make him think "Hixie is a clown who doesn't understand the requirements of Real Businesses"
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  671. # [19:01] <annevk> That reminds me of the famous Boeing example that always came up during TPAC
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  674. # [19:02] <Domenic> Hixie: I liked the email but I think it would have been stronger if you dropped the "pointless" from "pointless certification"
  675. # [19:02] <Domenic> oh what Boeing example, sounds fun
  676. # [19:02] <jgraham> Yeah, the "pointless" was not helpful
  677. # [19:02] <Hixie> Domenic: what is the point of certifying a WebIDL implementation?
  678. # [19:02] <annevk> Domenic: that Boeing was using old browsers and that therefore standards were important, it didn't make any sense
  679. # [19:02] <jgraham> Certification is not, in itself, pointless
  680. # [19:02] <annevk> Domenic: but somehow people loved it and it always got cheers
  681. # [19:02] <Domenic> Hixie: no point for us, but for Glenn, or more importantly Glenn's pointy-haired boss, maybe there is one
  682. # [19:03] <Domenic> annevk: O_O
  683. # [19:03] <Hixie> jgraham: right, i was trying to explicitly distinguish the useful certification from the kind of certification we're talking about here
  684. # [19:03] <jgraham> It might not be the optimal strategy for a platform like the web where rapid improvement is valued over interop
  685. # [19:03] <SamB> Hixie: isn't the "pointless" basically pointless?
  686. # [19:03] <jgraham> Hixie: It sounds like you are describing certification as inherently pointless
  687. # [19:03] <SamB> I mean how many certifications aren't?
  688. # [19:03] <jgraham> SamB: Well I like to know that my plug won't electrocute me…
  689. # [19:04] <Hixie> jgraham: i was just commenting on this specific kind of certification
  690. # [19:04] <SamB> oh, so we're including non-software certifications now?
  691. # [19:04] <SamB> maybe I should say, non-general-purpose-software certifications
  692. # [19:04] <Hixie> SamB: well presumably e.g. a doctor getting certified as "able to doctor" is not pointless
  693. # [19:05] <jgraham> SamB: Well the context is really TV people who have a background in hardware where certification is not pointless
  694. # [19:05] <SamB> ah
  695. # [19:05] <Hixie> SamB: presumably flight software being certified as "able to not crash the rocket into the ground at t=0" is also not pointless
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  697. # [19:05] <SamB> Hixie: yeah, hense my amendment to include more hyphenated terms ;-)
  698. # [19:05] <jgraham> They extrapolate that experience to the web and try to go around making "certified" versions of all the standards
  699. # [19:06] <jgraham> Which are usually a snapshot from some time, with a few added features and some more removed and a testsuite that you're supposed to conform to
  700. # [19:06] <SamB> Hixie: lets also make sure to mention the obligatory hospital equipment
  701. # [19:06] <SamB> like those IV regulators or whatever
  702. # [19:08] <jgraham> Certification is useful any time there's a significant harm to something being misrepresented
  703. # [19:08] <SamB> yeah
  704. # [19:08] <jgraham> Which is pretty often
  705. # [19:08] <SamB> but it's not so useful when the software changes every few weeks
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  707. # [19:08] <jgraham> Right. There is a downside too, which is calcification
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  709. # [19:09] <SamB> I mean, not unless you can get costs down to where it gets certified every damn release, BEFORE release
  710. # [19:09] <jgraham> Anyway for the web it isn't going to happen, because people don't value interop that much
  711. # [19:09] <SamB> which seems really unlikely for software that involves a lot of C, C++, and JavaScript
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  713. # [19:12] <Hixie> i think people on the web value interop very much, it's just that the standards are huuuuuge, and not yet done
  714. # [19:12] <jgraham> But they won't ever be "done"
  715. # [19:12] <Hixie> and won't be done for a long time, because we started with very poor specs and thus very divergent implementations
  716. # [19:13] <Hixie> and it's gonna take a long time for them to converge
  717. # [19:13] <Hixie> i think one could imagine a time decades hence where you could freeze a spec before adding more new features, and say, this is what browsers must implement to render today's content
  718. # [19:13] <SamB> Hixie: also people keep insisting on new features
  719. # [19:13] <Hixie> (i don't think it'd be particularly useful, but that's a separate issue)
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  721. # [19:14] <Hixie> the problem is right now, and for the forseeable future, there's no chance of the specs being good enough for them to describe exactly what browsers need to do
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  725. # [19:15] <jgraham> I think you can imagine that time, but I don't think it will happen. There's a tradeoff between interop and evolution, and as long as the former is good enough people always prefer the latter
  726. # [19:15] <jgraham> This isn't even a bad thing (it helps keep the platform relevant)
  727. # [19:16] <Hixie> yeah it's quite possible that we won't reach this point before the web is irrelevant
  728. # [19:16] <jgraham> But it does mean that it's an uphill battle to get people to invest resources in interop, particularly for features that are seen as "Good Enough"
  729. # [19:16] <SamB> Hixie: how will the web be irrlevent?
  730. # [19:17] <annevk> jgraham: it's still a bit unclear to me how in the current climate I'm allowed to work on improving interoperability on low-level architecture
  731. # [19:18] <jgraham> annevk: Because you are effective at selling it as needed for $new_shiny?
  732. # [19:19] <annevk> Yeah, that works I guess
  733. # [19:19] <Hixie> SamB: something is eventually going to replace the web as the world's information store.
  734. # [19:19] <annevk> Took me a while to figure out that was happening though, I was just trying to fix problems
  735. # [19:20] <SamB> Hixie: I guess I'm wondering if will have a new name
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  737. # [19:20] <Hixie> SamB: LCARS, maybe?
  738. # [19:21] <SamB> isn't that a HIG and/or toolkit?
  739. # [19:21] <SamB> I do like the idea of being able to customize my menus and controls and have them follow me around, though
  740. # [19:21] <IZh> Hi. What about sending document loading progress events to parent document? Or at least providing such interface to query the status and percentage of completeness?
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  742. # [19:22] <Hixie> SamB: "technically" LCARS is an information retrieval system, though people often refer to the UI as LCARS
  743. # [19:23] <Hixie> SamB: but e.g. "hey siri, i need the expansion for the abbreviation LCARS" is probably close to where we're headed, and it's not clear that the web need exist in that world, at least not in anything like the form we have today
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  745. # [19:24] <IZh> Of course, if there is a parent.
  746. # [19:25] <jgraham> Hixie: That seems like a very strange statement. I mean you are just talking about a UI, which doesn't say much about the backend information store
  747. # [19:26] <jgraham> It seems like the UI you describe is a) only a small subset of all the possible interaction UIs we will require and b) quite implementable on top of the web as it exists
  748. # [19:27] * Quits: poona (~poona@unaffiliated/poona) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  749. # [19:28] <SamB> jgraham: well, what is the backend information store of the web anyway?
  750. # [19:28] <jgraham> A collection of hyperlinked text documents, in theory
  751. # [19:29] <jgraham> In practice these days, it's closer to a set of hyperlinked applications written in js
  752. # [19:29] <SamB> one does hope that we can get something slightly less opaque next time around
  753. # [19:30] <jgraham> What makes you think that this would be a a success?
  754. # [19:31] <jgraham> It seems like it's the semantic web problem. They assume that people want to know the answers to questions like "what's the expansion of LCARS" whereas people actually want to know things like "are there any interesting things happening today" or "can I find someone to have a relationship with"
  755. # [19:31] <SamB> I mean, obviously, there's nothing to stop things being just as opaque as they tend to be now, but it might be nice if that wasn't nearly mandatory for anything of any complexity
  756. # [19:32] <jgraham> I guess "siri get me a girlfriend" is a possible future, but it sounds quite dystopian
  757. # [19:33] <IZh> jgraham: The future is: Siri, will you be my girlfriend? ;-)
  758. # [19:33] <SamB> IZh: that's the future, is it?
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  761. # [19:33] <SamB> IZh: I assume you aren't hoping that stuff you asked about would work cross-origin
  762. # [19:34] <caitp> the dystopia exists, just around the corner there's some kid looking to make millions making some combination tinder/snapchat and marketing it to 13 year olds
  763. # [19:34] <SamB> I mean, at least, not without something like CORS saying it's okay
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  765. # [19:34] <annevk> https://twitter.com/jaffathecake/status/482215293985783810 haha
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  767. # [19:35] <IZh_> SamB: of course
  768. # [19:36] <SamB> jgraham: Hmm, yeah, I guess the "semantic web" people are hoping to bring such transparency to the web we already have, aren't they?
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  774. # [19:42] <Ms2ger> link rel=script again?
  775. # [19:42] * Ms2ger ignores this thread, assumes Hixie will close it out quickly
  776. # [19:43] <SamB> why would anyone think that might be useful?
  777. # [19:43] <Ms2ger> It's consistent!
  778. # [19:43] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  779. # [19:44] <caitp> they're right, it would be better for everyone to start shrinking the language rather than growing it
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  781. # [19:44] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah, i wouldn't be surprised if it was built on top of the web as we know it
  782. # [19:44] <Hixie> jgraham: but simultaneously, large parts of it might become irrelevant (e.g. navigation, scripting)
  783. # [19:45] <SamB> Hixie: it does seem more likely than building it on top of Emacs, yes
  784. # [19:45] <Hixie> jgraham: anyway, this is all conjecture
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  788. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> Most often use for tag <script> is to include external script through
  789. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> <script src="somecdn.example/jquery.js">, or alike. May be we could add
  790. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> rel="script" to <link> tag with same behaviour as <script> with src.
  791. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> It's similiar to stylesheets: we can link external stylesheets via <link>
  792. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> and include CSS directly on page with <style> tag.
  793. # [19:50] <Ms2ger> SamB, ^
  794. # [19:51] <annevk> JakeA: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/347
  795. # [19:51] <annevk> Domenic: shall I file an issue on that header thing?
  796. # [19:51] <caitp> > remove primitives from the language, simplify it >> allow developers to grow the language with custom elements >>> eventually profit
  797. # [19:52] <SamB> Ms2ger: so basically they have hobgoblin-infested, small minds?
  798. # [19:52] <Ms2ger> No comment
  799. # [19:52] <SamB> oh wait, that wouldn't be an example of false consistancy though would it
  800. # [19:52] <annevk> I once thought that would be cool
  801. # [19:52] <Ms2ger> I probably did too
  802. # [19:52] <SamB> just "too late" realyl
  803. # [19:52] <annevk> Because then you could do Link: <script.js>; rel=script
  804. # [19:53] * Ms2ger liked XHTML2 at one point
  805. # [19:53] <annevk> Making something like http://annevankesteren.com/robots.txt even more impressive
  806. # [19:53] <annevk> XBL, alas
  807. # [19:53] <annevk> Also, separation of script and markup
  808. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> "Huge line for a talk about mobile web performance. The mobile web is not dead! #io14"
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  810. # [19:54] <Ms2ger> Sounds like people want to know if their code is going to be removed
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  812. # [19:54] <SamB> is the mobile web somehow different from the normal web?
  813. # [19:54] <caitp> it's the one people actually use
  814. # [19:55] <SamB> well, I mean, my dumbphone's browser is some kind of sick joke
  815. # [19:55] <SamB> but I was under the impression that I was using more-or-less the same web on my aging desktop as everyone else, only much, much slower
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  819. # [20:01] <Domenic> JakeA: why is my face there
  820. # [20:01] <Domenic> annevk: yes please
  821. # [20:01] <caitp> unlike the desktop, where you can do pretty much anything without any significant performance hits, people end up optimizing web apps for a specific handset, because maybe css doesn't do a good enough job so lets emulate gradiants in a canvas or invent some idea that flat uis are attractive or something --- and then once all of that is done they say "no lets not make this a web app, lets make this a packaged app so we
  822. # [20:01] <caitp> can use native APIs because webRTC or geolocation don't exist yet", etc
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  824. # [20:01] <caitp> it ends up being pretty different
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  827. # [20:05] <annevk> Domenic: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/348
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  829. # [20:06] <Domenic> annevk: sweet, queued for tonight or tomorrow.
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  854. # [20:45] -tomaw- [Global Notice] Hi all. I'm going to reroute a hub and then restart a client server for a few updates. It'll be noisy but should be brief!
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  1027. # [21:13] <annevk> marcosc: why is that not a wiki page?
  1028. # [21:13] <annevk> GH repo seems overkill
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  1041. # [21:24] <Domenic> honestly sending pull requests is more convenient than registering for that wiki
  1042. # [21:24] <Domenic> plus you get issue tracking
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  1045. # [21:31] <marcosc_> annevk, what Domenic said
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  1061. # [22:23] <Hixie> smaug____: iirc the idea is that if the browser wants to make navigating to an image bring up an image editor, or whatever, then it's not really our place to say that's not valid
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  1065. # [22:35] <IZh> In the section "Submit Button state" there is the fingerprint icon. How Submit button could be used to fingerprint a user? There are no additional notes about it in this section.
  1066. # [22:36] <IZh> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/states-of-the-type-attribute.html#submit-button-state-%28type=submit%29
  1067. # [22:40] <IZh> Hixie?
  1068. # [22:41] <Domenic> interesting question
  1069. # [22:41] <Hixie> check the value of the .value idl attribute when the element has no value content attribute
  1070. # [22:41] <Hixie> (gives you a few bits, but they're redundant with the UA string)
  1071. # [22:41] <Hixie> (and the language)
  1072. # [22:43] <IZh> Hixie: Thanks for explanation. May be few words should be added about it. At least pointing to .value attribute.
  1073. # [22:43] <Hixie> maybe. file a bug :-)
  1074. # [22:43] <Domenic> why would the .value attribute matter... i don't get it...
  1075. # [22:44] <Hixie> try it :-)
  1076. # [22:46] <Domenic> it's "Submit Query" in IE, but "" in Chrome and Firefox
  1077. # [22:46] <Domenic> is this just a matter of fingerprinting via some browsers not following the spec?
  1078. # [22:46] <Domenic> it seems like the value of .value is unspecced for submit buttons
  1079. # [22:47] <IZh> Filed. :-)
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  1081. # [22:49] <Hixie> Domenic: it's specced to be UA-dependent, which is the fingerprint vector
  1082. # [22:49] <Hixie> (i'm surprised you get "")
  1083. # [22:49] <Domenic> Hixie: how I read the spec was that the label is UA-dependent, as long as .value was unset
  1084. # [22:49] <Domenic> i didn't see a spec for .value
  1085. # [22:49] <IZh> Why the bug filing form has no Author field? ;-))
  1086. # [22:50] <Domenic> Hixie: actually following the link to "default" it seems like the spec says it should be ""
  1087. # [22:50] <IZh> May be in expanded version.
  1088. # [22:51] <Hixie> IZh: if you're logged into the spec annotation system, the author is automatically entered
  1089. # [22:51] <IZh> Hixie: Oh! Good.
  1090. # [22:51] * Quits: charl_ (~charl@maidcafe.nl) (Quit: leaving)
  1091. # [22:51] <Hixie> Domenic: hm, you're right. I guess it's actually the button width that you'd have to look at to get the fingerprinting bits, not the attribute value
  1092. # [22:52] <Domenic> Hixie: ah right, that'd do it. makes sense.
  1093. # [22:52] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.218.39)
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  1095. # [22:55] <IZh> Revalidated the spec. Only 3 minor errors: still has one broken link to W3C's css-font-load-elements and 2 accessibility errors about iframes without "title" attributes.
  1096. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Ah, if you have a link to font-load-events, switch it font-loading.
  1097. # [22:56] <Hixie> there's a bug on that i think
  1098. # [22:57] <Hixie> sorry about not doing any fixes in recent days. i'm working on my pipeline.
  1099. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> Np.
  1100. # [22:57] <Hixie> once that's done hopefully my productivity will be higher.
  1101. # [22:57] <Hixie> (than before, i mean, not than now, where it's zero!)
  1102. # [23:01] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  1103. # [23:02] <MikeSmith> IZh: 2 accessibility errors about iframes without "title" attributes
  1104. # [23:02] <MikeSmith> ?
  1105. # [23:02] <MikeSmith> IZh: which checker reports errors about those?
  1106. # [23:03] <IZh> CSE HTML validator.
  1107. # [23:03] <Hixie> an overzealous one, presumably :-)
  1108. # [23:03] * Quits: marcosc_ (~marcosc@66.207.208.102) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  1110. # [23:04] <IZh> It says: [70] The "iframe" element requires the "title" attribute to label the frame, describe the contents, and facilitate frame identification so users can determine which frame to enter. Frame titles must be meaningful. For example, "Table of Contents", "Where the content is displayed", and "Sitewide navigation bar" (or simply "Navigation"). Visit http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H64 for...
  1111. # [23:04] <IZh> ...more information. [A, 2.4.1; H64] [A, 4.1.2; H64]
  1112. # [23:05] * Quits: Maurice` (copyman@5ED5617C.cm-7-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  1113. # [23:05] <MikeSmith> IZh: "users can determine which frame to enter"? for an iframe?
  1114. # [23:06] <Hixie> many ATs have a pretty poor user experience around iframes
  1115. # [23:06] <Hixie> they basically offer them as black boxes that the user can chose to enter or not, given the title
  1116. # [23:06] <MikeSmith> oh
  1117. # [23:07] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@162.217.73.171)
  1118. # [23:07] <MikeSmith> that does sound bad
  1119. # [23:07] <Hixie> (instead of doing what the HTML spec basically requires, which is to treat them as transparent transclusions)
  1120. # [23:07] <MikeSmith> yeah
  1121. # [23:07] <Hixie> careful, criticising ATs means you hate disabled users
  1122. # [23:07] <MikeSmith> man that has to be really annoying for the users
  1123. # [23:08] <IZh> Anyway, there are 2 iframes without titles in the spec.
  1124. # [23:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie: I love everybody
  1125. # [23:09] <MikeSmith> IZh: nobody in real universe puts titles on iframes
  1126. # [23:09] * Quits: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1127. # [23:10] <IZh> MikeSmith: No problem. :-)
  1128. # [23:10] * Joins: sankha93 (~sankha93@stgt-5f702e15.pool.mediaWays.net)
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  1130. # [23:10] * Joins: sankha93 (~sankha93@fsf/emeritus/sankha93)
  1131. # [23:10] * Joins: hober (~ted@unaffiliated/hober)
  1132. # [23:10] <MikeSmith> I wonder what NVDA does with iframes. I mean, if it also does the "offer them as black boxes that the user can chose to enter or not, given the title" thing
  1133. # [23:10] <MikeSmith> I would hope at least NVDA doesn't do that
  1134. # [23:11] <MikeSmith> or Voiceover
  1135. # [23:18] <IZh> "Internal Error: Oops. That was not supposed to happen. A bug manifested itself in the application internals. Unable to continue. Sorry. The admin was notified." I have crashed the validator.nu ;-)
  1136. # [23:22] <MikeSmith> IZh: you didn't crash it :)
  1137. # [23:22] <MikeSmith> that's just an uncaught exception
  1138. # [23:22] <MikeSmith> but thanks for finding it
  1139. # [23:22] <MikeSmith> do you have a URL for a doc that I can test with, to reproduce that
  1140. # [23:22] <MikeSmith> ?
  1141. # [23:23] <MikeSmith> or a minimal test case
  1142. # [23:23] <IZh> It can't handle port nombers >= 65536 ;-)
  1143. # [23:23] <IZh> http://validator.whatwg.org:65536/
  1144. # [23:23] <MikeSmith> ah that may be in the library code that we use for checking URLs
  1145. # [23:23] * MikeSmith checks
  1146. # [23:27] * Quits: tj_vantoll (~Adium@c-98-250-130-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1147. # [23:27] <MikeSmith> IZh: java.lang.NullPointerException at org.apache.commons.httpclient.HttpConnection.open(HttpConnection.java:721)
  1148. # [23:28] <IZh> Somebody has to check port number. :-)
  1149. # [23:30] * Joins: rniwa (~rniwa@17.202.43.222)
  1150. # [23:30] <IZh> Also one probably potential security issue: When you validating http://localhost/ it says 404. But not access denied or so. I mean that the validator could be probably used for scanning internal network.
  1151. # [23:30] <IZh> Probably validator should ban access to private IP ranges.
  1152. # [23:31] <IZh> Or I could try to validate some web-server status page or so (by enabling "Show Source"), if any.
  1153. # [23:33] * Joins: othermaciej (~mjs@c-50-136-134-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  1154. # [23:33] <IZh> And there is one way to abuse the validator: recursion. ;-) You can ask the validator to validate the results of validating the results of validating of some page. :-)
  1155. # [23:33] <IZh> Of course, with enabled "Show Source" ;-)
  1156. # [23:34] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  1157. # [23:35] <IZh> I think there should be a restriction on validating URL when validating itself.
  1158. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> IZh: please file bugs
  1159. # [23:37] <MikeSmith> I've talked about some of these things with Henri already and we didn't have any clever ideas
  1160. # [23:38] <IZh> MikeSmith: Where is the validator's bug reporting page?
  1161. # [23:38] <IZh> Found it.
  1162. # [23:38] <MikeSmith> but I think we're essentially not doing anything different than you could do with a browser or with lynx or some other http UA
  1163. # [23:39] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1164. # [23:46] <IZh> One more internal error. Select "File Upload" but do not provide any file, enable "Show Outline" and click Validate ;-)
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  1167. # [23:51] <IZh> I think it can't make outlines for empty documents.
  1168. # [23:52] <MikeSmith> oh that's kinda silly
  1169. # [23:52] <MikeSmith> I guess I should fix that
  1170. # [23:54] <MikeSmith> hmm validator.w3.org/nu doesn't have that issue
  1171. # [23:54] * MikeSmith checkes qa-dev.w3.org:8888
  1172. # [23:56] * Quits: mven_ (~textual@169.241.49.57) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  1173. # [23:56] <IZh> Because it forbids to submit the form without file.
  1174. # [23:57] * Joins: mven (~textual@169.241.49.57)
  1175. # [23:57] <IZh> But it has the port number issue.
  1176. # [23:58] <MikeSmith> can't reproduce it at http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888
  1177. # [23:58] <IZh> 8888 is less than 65536 ;-)
  1178. # [23:58] <MikeSmith> which is built from the latest soruces
  1179. # [23:58] <IZh> Try 65536 or greater port number
  1180. # [23:59] <MikeSmith> IZh: I mean the outline problem
  1181. # [23:59] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@91.108.183.58) (Quit: Leaving.)
  1182. # [23:59] <IZh> Try on http://validator.nu/
  1183. # [23:59] <MikeSmith> and I mean I have an instance of the validator at http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888
  1184. # [23:59] <MikeSmith> IZh: yeah I understand but I don't have access to the error logs for http://validator.nu/
  1185. # [23:59] <IZh> Hmmm... No error.
  1186. # [23:59] <MikeSmith> whereas I do for http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888
  1187. # [23:59] * Quits: abinader (sid21713@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hesfcnehppfcwcar)
  1188. # [23:59] <MikeSmith> yeah
  1189. # Session Close: Fri Jun 27 00:00:00 2014

The end :)