/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-06-30 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 30 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  25. # [01:05] <SamB> so, nobody actually defines the rules to turn XHTML into a Document?
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  33. # [01:38] <gsnedders> SamB: yup.
  34. # [01:38] <gsnedders> SamB: or XML in general
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  56. # [02:51] <SamB> and they tell me that HTML email is totally unstandardized
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  67. # [03:19] <SamB> so, I can have an <xmlns:foo> element, but only if I use the right namespace URL?
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  69. # [03:20] <SamB> http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document-createelementns
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  117. # [06:27] <roc> I think this insistence that WebIDL be no more expressive than JS has gone much too far
  118. # [06:29] <MikeSmith> roc: people are really advocating for that?
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  120. # [06:29] <MikeSmith> on script-coord? or somewhere else?
  121. # [06:29] * MikeSmith is way behind on e-mail
  122. # [06:30] <roc> that is my impression from public-script-coord, though to be fair it's mostly Domenic Denicola
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  125. # [06:34] <MikeSmith> roc: yeah I'm reading up on that thread now. Wonder what slightlyoff's take on this is
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  127. # [06:36] <caitp> *reads thread*
  128. # [06:37] <caitp> would those interfaces need to be exposed to JS at all? I thought that's what NoInterfaceObject was mostly used for
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  132. # [06:46] <roc> Domenic seems to insist that there be one WebIDL interface per implementation class.
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  135. # [06:49] <caitp> I can see his point, it would be potentially be helpful for users, and would also probably be helpful for the whole "implement the platform in JS" push
  136. # [06:49] <caitp> but I dunno :>
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  160. # [08:38] <annevk_> roc: a large part of ES6 was to make ES as expressible as DOM
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  191. # [10:31] <annevk> I realized over the weekend the asFormData thread was slightly silly, as for FormData parsing you need to extract the MIME type in order to get the boundary
  192. # [10:32] <annevk> Nobody on the list noticed that however
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  219. # [12:09] * annevk filed http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=2388&eid=4030
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  229. # [12:46] * annevk revives http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FormData
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  234. # [13:00] * annevk filed http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7231&eid=4031
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  236. # [13:09] <annevk> Domenic: fetching itself requires teeing as well
  237. # [13:10] <annevk> Domenic: e.g. POST a stream to X, now X replies with a redirect to Y. The platform expects both X and Y to get the stream
  238. # [13:11] <annevk> I should probably spell that out in http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#http-network-or-cache-fetch rather than say "Let HTTPRequest be a copy of request." which does not really work for streams (well, copy is not immediately clear)
  239. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think Larry would be happy if you filed issues at https://github.com/masinter/multipart-form-data/issues too
  240. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> annevk: oh, the first one at least
  241. # [13:12] <MikeSmith> not the http one
  242. # [13:15] <annevk> Is that actually moving?
  243. # [13:16] <annevk> Seems the boundary comment is already captured there by a comment from Alexey
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  246. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> annevk: dunno if it's moving or not but I know Larry would for people to at least read what he's got there and comment
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  248. # [13:44] <annevk> I'm sort of surprised it is not done yet, this should not be hard
  249. # [13:44] * annevk points himself to topic
  250. # [13:45] <annevk> Hixie: your echo tool is great btw
  251. # [13:45] <annevk> Hixie: that hex viewer :-)
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  286. # [15:14] <annevk> Domenic: either way "When an Advisory Board or TAG participant changes affiliations, as long as Advisory Board and TAG participation constraints are respected, the individual MAY continue to participate until the next regularly scheduled election for that group." applies
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  296. # [15:40] <annevk> Refactoring XMLHttpRequest in terms of Fetch <3
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  310. # [16:14] <annevk> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23646#c24 lol
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  312. # [16:20] <annevk> Hixie: how much positive reactions have you gotten to the "domintro" boxes? So far all they have caused is confusion in bug reports I got
  313. # [16:20] <annevk> Hixie: in particular implementers citing them causes concern
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  317. # [16:25] <Domenic> What's a domintro box
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  324. # [16:36] <annevk> http://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#the-open%28%29-method the green box that says "Note"
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  332. # [16:45] <Domenic> Oh. So before those were green but didn't have the little box, right?
  333. # [16:45] <Domenic> I much prefer the explicit call-outs myself.
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  339. # [16:51] <jgraham> Maybe it should say "non normative note"
  340. # [16:52] <annevk> Domenic: well yes, that it says "Note" is great, I'm just wondering if there's value versus having people just read the algorithms
  341. # [16:52] <annevk> Domenic: and leaving "domintro" material to MDN
  342. # [16:52] <Domenic> annevk: ah, for them existing at all, you mean.
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  344. # [16:53] <annevk> Yes, given that people get confused and most developers don't seem to read specifications
  345. # [16:53] <Domenic> Oh, and not just notes generally, but the "intro" notes describing each method.
  346. # [16:53] <jgraham> annevk: Being able to get a rough idea of what a method is supposed to do seems valuable. Not least to people writing MDN
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  348. # [16:54] <annevk> Domenic: notes generally still have value I think
  349. # [16:54] <Domenic> I agree that they can be a bit problematic. I think I would prefer making them more vague, i.e. one- or two-sentence prose descriptions instead of things that link to defined terms, and specify all the error conditions
  350. # [16:54] <annevk> That might work
  351. # [16:55] <annevk> Trying to be accurate is indeed not paying off
  352. # [16:55] <annevk> Oh shit, back later
  353. # [16:55] <Domenic> So e.g. "mutates the state of the XMLHttpRequest object according to the passed values, setting it up for a future call to send()" (just off the top of my head)
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  366. # [17:14] <MikeSmith> we should have an implementor view of the spec that omits all of the non-normative parts
  367. # [17:15] <MikeSmith> basically, just the class=impl parts
  368. # [17:15] <jgraham> MikeSmith: The other notes are really helpful when implementing
  369. # [17:15] <jgraham> Because they often state non-obvious things that should be invariants
  370. # [17:15] <jgraham> Or similar
  371. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> jgraham: So we need class="impl note"
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  391. # [18:03] <Domenic> In ES specs/streams spec we do "Assert: <invariant must hold>" as part of the spec steps
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  399. # [18:12] <jgraham> Domenic: Not just asserts though. e.g. the parser spec has things like (paraphrasing) "although this attribute is removed and never used in the tree, it is still the /currentAttribute/"
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  401. # [18:13] <jgraham> Which is already normatively specified, but makes it clear that the behaviour in the normative parts is intentional
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  406. # [18:17] <Domenic> Yeah, fair.
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  415. # [18:32] <gsnedders> Also last I knew Hixie wasn't confident of the "fragment case" notes being correct, and thought there might also be other cases not so denoted.
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  417. # [18:36] <Hixie> yeah the fragment case stuff is out of date, i'm pretty sure. i really should just strip those annotations.
  418. # [18:36] * Joins: tav (~tav`@37.157.36.218)
  419. # [18:36] <Hixie> annevk: before i added domintro boxes i got a regular stream of people saying the spec was inpenetrable for authors, because nothing said how to use APIs
  420. # [18:36] <Hixie> annevk: since adding them, i've gotten no such feedback, but i do occasionally get confused implementors
  421. # [18:37] <Hixie> annevk: mostly new implementors who can't tell that they're non-normative and have no requirements, though
  422. # [18:39] <SamB> I think you should get some cute "caution" signs
  423. # [18:40] <Hixie> the "Note" labels aren't cute enough?
  424. # [18:40] <Hixie> we used to explicitly label them "These are not normative, the requirements are below", but I think the "Note" conveys the same meaning
  425. # [18:41] <SamB> I meant for particular (classes) that you suspect of being stale
  426. # [18:41] <Hixie> ?
  427. # [18:42] <Hixie> MikeSmith: we actually do have class="impl note" in some places, fwiw
  428. # [18:42] <Hixie> e.g. any note in the parser section
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  430. # [18:43] * abinader is now known as abinader|afk
  431. # [18:44] <SamB> Hixie: oh, btw, how in the world am I supposed to fix crossrefs in the multipage edition without a copy of the buildsystem ;-P
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  434. # [18:45] <Hixie> i'm going to fix those shortly
  435. # [18:45] <Hixie> i'm redoing my build system
  436. # [18:45] <Hixie> the multipage splitter is in github, though, fwiw
  437. # [18:45] <Hixie> the current one, i mean
  438. # [18:45] <SamB> hmm
  439. # [18:45] <Hixie> it's not part of the spec generator per se
  440. # [18:45] <SamB> see, this is why you should have a README in the repo
  441. # [18:45] <Hixie> *shrug*
  442. # [18:46] <Hixie> i wouldn't have thought to put that in there :-)
  443. # [18:46] <SamB> well, yes, that's why I'm telling you now
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  445. # [18:46] <Hixie> the only thing i'd think to put in such a README is "stop forking the spec"
  446. # [18:46] <Hixie> and the w3c would ignore it anyway
  447. # [18:48] <SamB> it'd go like this "My current spec generator is awful, so I'm writing a new one at <...>. Code to split this into multiple pages is at <...>, and some of the images, scripts, and stylesheets are in the repo at <...>.
  448. # [18:48] <SamB> oops forgot the closing quote
  449. # [18:49] <Hixie> that would just make it even easier for the w3c to fork it
  450. # [18:49] <Hixie> which is an antigoal
  451. # [18:49] <SamB> they don't use your style though
  452. # [18:49] <SamB> or logos
  453. # [18:49] <Hixie> they use the rest
  454. # [18:50] <Hixie> they even use some of the styles
  455. # [18:50] <SamB> hmm
  456. # [18:50] <SamB> I don't see that making it easier for the W3C to fork it is actually going to make anything worse; they *already* forked it.
  457. # [18:50] <Hixie> it's an ongoing thing
  458. # [18:51] <Hixie> they copy all our patches too
  459. # [18:51] <Hixie> well, most of them
  460. # [18:51] <SamB> What license are you using for the text again?
  461. # [18:51] <Hixie> (if it was just all of them and tehy didn't make any additional changes, it would be fine)
  462. # [18:51] <Hixie> SamB: "You are granted a license to use, reproduce and create derivative works of this document"
  463. # [18:51] <Domenic> did you see this reply: https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/483600468011393025
  464. # [18:51] <SamB> Hixie: yeah, if it was all of them that'd not really be what you call a fork
  465. # [18:52] <SamB> Hixie: maybe switch to one requiring retention of copyright statements ;-P
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  467. # [18:52] <SamB> like the Expat license
  468. # [18:52] <Hixie> SamB: i'm very close to just changing the license to disallow forking entirely
  469. # [18:53] <Hixie> SamB: i'm right on the knife edge of not being sure which is more important, the freedom for specs to be reusable, or the damage the w3c is causing with their fork
  470. # [18:53] <SamB> Hixie: what, you gonna go all LPPL on them?
  471. # [18:53] <SamB> or Knuth?
  472. # [18:53] <SamB> like "you must not call this HTML if you fork it"
  473. # [18:53] <SamB> "no, you can't just add a 5"
  474. # [18:54] <Hixie> i was thinking more the w3c documentation license with "w3c" replaced with "whatwg", for extra irony
  475. # [18:55] <SamB> hmm, I'd really prefer if you'd try some other Free Software licenses before you do something like that
  476. # [18:55] <Domenic> Hixie: this feels like a very movie-esque situation... I think I have to chime in and say "don't do it! That's what separates *us* from *them*!"
  477. # [18:57] <SamB> I'd just start with "Copyright 200x--20xx whatwg.org"
  478. # [18:58] <Hixie> Domenic: yeah, that's why i haven't done it
  479. # [18:58] <SamB> then go on to give the text of the Expat license, which would forbid the W3C from removing the first bit
  480. # [18:58] <Hixie> SamB: there's plenty of licenses like that. I'd just use the MIT license if that was my goal.
  481. # [18:58] <Hixie> SamB: however, having them put our copyright on their spec isn't the goal
  482. # [18:58] <SamB> expat license IS an MIT license
  483. # [18:58] <SamB> http://www.jclark.com/xml/copying.txt
  484. # [18:58] <Domenic> SamB: the relevant portion is not whether they include some kind of credit (they already do), but whether they modify it. Thus the W3C document license's "No right to create modifications or derivatives of W3C documents is granted pursuant to this license."
  485. # [18:59] <SamB> hmm, so, maybe use something like the LGPL then
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  487. # [18:59] <Domenic> LGPL software can't be forked? Weird.
  488. # [18:59] <SamB> it can
  489. # [18:59] <Domenic> Well then it's not suitable.
  490. # [18:59] <SamB> but I think you're technically supposed to document the changes
  491. # [19:00] <Hixie> SamB: they do "document" the changes
  492. # [19:00] <Hixie> i mean, they do a pathetic job of it, but they at least try
  493. # [19:00] <Hixie> the problem isn't that
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  495. # [19:00] <Hixie> the problem is that there are changes at all
  496. # [19:00] <SamB> also they'd be required to pass on the permission to all recipients
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  500. # [19:01] <jgraham> The level of problem here is not worth the cost of adopting a restrictive license
  501. # [19:01] <jgraham> Not least because you would automatically lose any argument in favour of permissive licenses in the future
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  503. # [19:01] <Hixie> yup
  504. # [19:02] <Hixie> jgraham: is there some way to force pms to sort attributes? or if they're always sorted, what order are they sorted in?
  505. # [19:02] * Hixie crosses his fingers and repeats "please don't say python hash order please don't say python hash order"
  506. # [19:03] <SamB> well, the LGPL isn't viral to the extent that the GPL is
  507. # [19:03] <Hixie> realistically, the license isn't changing
  508. # [19:03] <jgraham> Hixie: It is possible to make html5lib do it. I don't remember if that's exposed anywehre though
  509. # [19:04] <Hixie> jgraham: any chance i could get you to make pms do it briefly? i'm trying to ensure my output matches pms', so that i know i haven't broken anything
  510. # [19:06] <SamB> Hixie: wouldn't *any* sort of copyleft make things tricky for the W3C fork, though?
  511. # [19:06] <Hixie> this is probably their most important spec, "tricky" won't stop them
  512. # [19:06] <Hixie> and it has much bigger disadvantages
  513. # [19:06] <Hixie> e.g. can't reuse in mozilla comments
  514. # [19:06] <SamB> hmm
  515. # [19:07] <SamB> so would any sort of licensing scheme with an |MPL be a pointless exercise here?
  516. # [19:07] <SamB> what does the MPL let you get away with?
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  520. # [19:09] <Hixie> MPL is more or less the sme as what we have now
  521. # [19:09] <jgraham> Hixie: Try now, but I'm not sure I did anything useful
  522. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> Hixie: about class="impl note", I'm reminde that you're always way ahead of me
  523. # [19:11] <Hixie> jgraham: thanks, trying now
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  528. # [19:22] <SamB> hmm, well, #debian-devel thinks you should use one of those anyway just to make sure you're actually granting all the rights you think you're granting ;-)
  529. # [19:22] <SamB> er, sorry, was scrolled up
  530. # [19:22] <SamB> s/one of those/MIT licenses/
  531. # [19:22] <SamB> er.
  532. # [19:23] <SamB> grammatified better
  533. # [19:23] <Hixie> yeah, we should. but changing the license is harder than it appears, so unless someone has an actual problem, we won't.
  534. # [19:23] <Hixie> clearly the w3c is sure we're granting them.
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  536. # [19:25] <Hixie> jgraham: that changed nothing :-(
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  542. # [19:31] <jgraham> Hixie: Oh, sorry. Got to run now but I will try again later / tomorrow
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  545. # [19:33] <Hixie> jgraham: k
  546. # [19:33] <Hixie> jgraham: thanks for trying!
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  593. # [20:46] <SamB> Hixie: oh, btw, those links that point at, like, the previous sentence are kind of annoying
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  596. # [20:49] <SamB> Hixie: and will your new tool link to the actual *definitions* imported from other specs?
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  607. # [21:23] <mounir> Domenic, abarth: ping
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  611. # [21:28] <abarth> mounir: hi
  612. # [21:28] <mounir> abarth: I thought it could be great to have a quick discussion about the screen.orientation issue
  613. # [21:28] <abarth> mounir: I commented on the github bug thread
  614. # [21:28] <abarth> yeah
  615. # [21:28] <mounir> abarth: I saw that
  616. # [21:28] <abarth> there's some sort of crazy going on
  617. # [21:29] <mounir> abarth: what would you prefer?
  618. # [21:29] <abarth> i'd just leave it as an normal interface
  619. # [21:29] <abarth> instead of hacking around to try to making it into a dictionary
  620. # [21:30] <mounir> abarth: and you would pass that interface when resolving the promise?
  621. # [21:31] <abarth> i'm not sure I understand the connection to promises
  622. # [21:31] <abarth> but sure, you can pass an interface to a promise
  623. # [21:31] <mounir> screen.lockOrientation().then(function(o) {})
  624. # [21:31] <abarth> that's how everything else in the platform works
  625. # [21:31] <abarth> sure
  626. # [21:31] <mounir> o is the orientation at the time of the lock being applied
  627. # [21:31] <mounir> it has to be "frozen"
  628. # [21:32] <abarth> you don't mean frozen in the ECMAScript sense
  629. # [21:32] <abarth> you just mean 'not live'
  630. # [21:32] <abarth> sure
  631. # [21:32] <mounir> abarth: yes, thus the quotes
  632. # [21:32] <mounir> having a live and not live version sounded dirty
  633. # [21:32] <mounir> and I didn't really know what to do
  634. # [21:32] <abarth> why?
  635. # [21:32] <abarth> that's how everything works
  636. # [21:33] <mounir> Domenic's proposal sounded a cleaner way to solve the problem
  637. # [21:33] <abarth> except that it doesn't work
  638. # [21:33] <mounir> abarth: there isn't that many frozen/live objects
  639. # [21:33] <abarth> you can't even express it in IDL
  640. # [21:33] <mounir> abarth: except crazy things like NodeList, maybe
  641. # [21:33] <abarth> window.location
  642. # [21:33] <abarth> window.document
  643. # [21:33] <abarth> |document| is live
  644. # [21:33] <abarth> but if you make your own element
  645. # [21:33] <abarth> and hold onto it
  646. # [21:34] <abarth> it's "not live"
  647. # [21:34] <abarth> the reason screen.orientation is "live" is because the platform keep mutating it
  648. # [21:35] <abarth> the version it gives you via lockOrientation is "no live" because the platform just doesn't mutate it
  649. # [21:35] <mounir> abarth: I understand that
  650. # [21:35] <mounir> abarth: I'm not really convinced that it is nicer that Domenic's opinion
  651. # [21:35] <mounir> s/opinion/proposal/
  652. # [21:36] <abarth> dominic's proposal doesn't work
  653. # [21:36] <abarth> and is different from every other thing in the platform
  654. # [21:36] <abarth> is there any problem with the proposal above that needs to be solved?
  655. # [21:37] <mounir> why it doesn't work?
  656. # [21:37] <mounir> because it's not expressable in WebIDL?
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  658. # [21:38] <mounir> fwiw, doing s/dictionary/object/ and it becomes fine wrt WebIDL
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  660. # [21:39] <abarth> maybe the "not working" part is specific to the CL you wrote
  661. # [21:39] <abarth> but the CL you wrote is a security vulnerability
  662. # [21:39] <mounir> how so?
  663. # [21:39] <mounir> because it's using custom bindings?
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  666. # [21:42] * abinader|afk is now known as abinader
  667. # [21:42] <mounir> abarth: my understanding is that I can't return an arbitrary object using the bindings in Blink, if that's not right, I can change the CL
  668. # [21:43] <abarth> Chasing down the details, I see that I'm mistaken about it being a security vulnerability
  669. # [21:43] <abarth> here's a strange behavior that you've got through:
  670. # [21:43] <abarth> var x = screen.orientation;
  671. # [21:43] <abarth> x.foo = "bar";
  672. # [21:43] <mounir> abarth: anyhow, I want to make sure we have an agreement on the API - if the implementation needs fixing, that's orthogonal
  673. # [21:43] <abarth> ... time passes ..
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  675. # [21:43] <abarth> alert(screen.orientation.foo == "bar")
  676. # [21:43] <abarth> does that alert |true| or |false| ?
  677. # [21:44] <mounir> abarth: might be true but screen.orientation should be read-only
  678. # [21:44] <mounir> abarth: I should probably fix that
  679. # [21:45] <mounir> (i was actually thinking about that during diner...)
  680. # [21:45] <abarth> making screen.orientation readonly doesn't solve this problem
  681. # [21:45] <abarth> the problem is that you're creating new objects from time to time
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  683. # [21:45] <abarth> which means you lose all the expandos
  684. # [21:46] <abarth> In any case, I still haven't heard a problem with implementing this feature the normal way
  685. # [21:47] <abarth> if there's no problem to solve, I'd strongly prefer for this feature to behave in the same way as every other API in the plaform
  686. # [21:48] <mounir> abarth: I was going to go the "normal way", as you can see, the spec was going that way and only needed to add the frozen definition
  687. # [21:48] <mounir> abarth: Domenic pointed that other solution that looked reasonable
  688. # [21:49] <abarth> when you get into the details, they look less reasonable
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  691. # [21:50] <mounir> abarth: sure
  692. # [21:50] <mounir> abarth: I don't have any strong opinion but I would like to hear from Domenic before going the other way
  693. # [21:51] <mounir> (ahah, that previous sentence is terrible...)
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  695. # [21:53] <annevk> Hixie: is there any advantage of class=domintro over class=note then? Maybe we should have class=intro and just label them "Introduction"?
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  704. # [22:06] <annevk> mounir: what abarth is saying is that you need to define the lifetime of the object you return
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  706. # [22:07] <annevk> mounir: or its GC policy
  707. # [22:07] <annevk> mounir: but you need to do that either way
  708. # [22:07] <mounir> annevk: I understood that
  709. # [22:07] <annevk> mounir: so I don't really see the problem, seems like it could just be the lifetime of the screen object
  710. # [22:07] <abarth> annevk: my point is that we're creating all these problems and complex spec and implementation to solve a non-problem
  711. # [22:07] <mounir> annevk: and we will get many objects lying around for no reason?
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  714. # [22:08] <abarth> annevk: instead, we could just use the normal spec for readonly attributes in WebIDL and return a normal interface object
  715. # [22:09] <annevk> abarth: that Chrome is wonky when it comes to dealing with JavaScript shouldn't really influence API design I think
  716. # [22:09] <SamB> annevk: any idea why this says what it does about "xmlns" <http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document-createelementns>? I'm not familiar with any xmlns elements
  717. # [22:09] <abarth> annevk: I didn't say that
  718. # [22:09] <abarth> annevk: I said this API should work the same way as every other API in the platform
  719. # [22:10] <abarth> annevk: no one has advanced any reason why doing things the normal way is a problem
  720. # [22:10] <annevk> Our "the normal way" is alien to many web developers
  721. # [22:10] <annevk> And JavaScript as a language
  722. # [22:10] <annevk> SamB: legacy XML cruft
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  724. # [22:11] <SamB> annevk: because it SOUNDS like stuff that has more to do with attributes
  725. # [22:12] <abarth> annevk: can you show me some code that would be written by a web developer that would be materially better using this alternative approach?
  726. # [22:14] <annevk> abarth: if you're not convinced by the premise that the platform is a library written on top of JavaScript I recommend talking to slightlyoff et al
  727. # [22:14] <abarth> annevk: The normal way of implementing this works fine in JavaScript
  728. # [22:14] <annevk> abarth: or e.g. dglazkov if that's closer
  729. # [22:14] <abarth> annevk: there's nothing "non javascripty" about the normal way here
  730. # [22:15] <abarth> annevk: so, you don't have a concrete problem with the normal approach either
  731. # [22:15] <annevk> abarth: yes there is, the normal way has a non-constructable class
  732. # [22:15] <Hixie> SamB: i hope so, eventually
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  734. # [22:15] <abarth> so, make the class constructable
  735. # [22:15] <Hixie> annevk: domintro vs note is mostly a historical thing now
  736. # [22:15] <annevk> abarth: if you write some JavaScript, the normal way to return some properties is just returning an object
  737. # [22:16] <abarth> the only difference here is (1) the prototype and (2) the toString value
  738. # [22:16] <Hixie> "if you're not convinced by the premise that the platform is a library written on top of JavaScript I recommend talking to slightlyoff et al" <- i have, still not convinced
  739. # [22:16] <annevk> abarth: people care about us not using data properties too, these things matter to some people
  740. # [22:16] <abarth> annevk: so, do you have any code that would be made better?
  741. # [22:16] <abarth> it sounds like the answer is "no"
  742. # [22:17] <SamB> if it's written in JavaScript, remind me what all that C++ code is for
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  744. # [22:18] <annevk> abarth: I don't think this is helping
  745. # [22:18] <abarth> ok :)
  746. # [22:19] <Hixie> "Our "the normal way" is alien to many web developers" <- the JS way is alien to at least as many developers
  747. # [22:19] <abarth> Hixie: it's all about who you pick as "JS" developers
  748. # [22:20] <Hixie> exactly
  749. # [22:20] <abarth> the true scottsmen who will arbitrate
  750. # [22:20] <Hixie> yeah
  751. # [22:22] <annevk> abarth: it does seem to me that just like we think XML is cruft, returning an object that has a prototype and various bits IDL adds over a normal object can also be seen as such
  752. # [22:22] <annevk> abarth: but I'm not the one you need to convince here
  753. # [22:22] <Hixie> (for the record i've no idea what y'all are actually talking about, concretely)
  754. # [22:22] <abarth> Hixie: it's has to do with what screen.orientation returns
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  756. # [22:22] <abarth> should its prototype be Object.prototype
  757. # [22:22] <abarth> should it change identity when the orientation changes
  758. # [22:23] <Hixie> shouldn't it just be a string...
  759. # [22:23] <abarth> it has two fields
  760. # [22:24] <abarth> angle and type
  761. # [22:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie: from where is the quote "if you're not convinced by the premise that the platform is a library written on top of JavaScript I recommend talking to slightlyoff"?
  762. # [22:24] <Hixie> MikeSmith: slightly earlier in the annevk/abarth conversation
  763. # [22:24] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ah ok
  764. # [22:25] * MikeSmith is just reading scrollback now
  765. # [22:25] <abarth> Hixie: but yes, you could explode them onto Screen if you wanted
  766. # [22:26] <Hixie> abarth: imho should probably return an interface ScreenOrientation { readonly attribute SomeEnum firstField; readonly attribute SomeOtherEnum secondField; }
  767. # [22:26] <Hixie> abarth: what else would it return?
  768. # [22:26] <abarth> that's my perspective
  769. # [22:26] <Hixie> lgtm, ship it
  770. # [22:27] <abarth> that's alien to "JS" developers
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  772. # [22:27] <abarth> instead, they want exactly the same thing, except the prototype is set to Object.prototype and the toString returns "[Object object]"
  773. # [22:27] <Hixie> that's alien to Web developers
  774. # [22:28] <SamB> abarth: why do they have to care about that
  775. # [22:28] <Hixie> what Web devs want is that rare that the Web has done consistently for decades
  776. # [22:28] <SamB> isn't Object.prototype in the chain anyway
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  778. # [22:28] <Hixie> that sentence got garbled
  779. # [22:28] <abarth> SamB: that's my argument. no code is made better by returning that sort of object instead
  780. # [22:28] <Hixie> what Web devs want is that rare thing, a think the Web has done consistently for decades. namely, the interface thing.
  781. # [22:28] <Hixie> thing. not think.
  782. # [22:28] <Hixie> i'm gonna go elsewhere now.
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  784. # [22:29] <SamB> Hixie: hehehe
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  786. # [22:29] <SamB> it sounded senseful to me, if slightly garbled
  787. # [22:30] <SamB> (can't you do that in JavaScript too though?)
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  789. # [22:31] <Hixie> do what in JS?
  790. # [22:31] <Hixie> return a host object?
  791. # [22:33] <SamB> you can only do that whole interface thing for host objects?
  792. # [22:34] <Hixie> "interface" basically means "host object"
  793. # [22:35] <Hixie> i mean it's more complicated than that
  794. # [22:35] <Hixie> but what abarth and i are saying is that the api should return a host object
  795. # [22:35] <Hixie> not an Object
  796. # [22:36] <SamB> yeah, I know; I guess I'm just underestimating the extent to which host objects are magical ...
  797. # [22:36] <Hixie> they're not really magical at all
  798. # [22:36] <Hixie> well, Window is
  799. # [22:36] <SamB> s/magical/special/ ?
  800. # [22:36] <Hixie> they're not really special either, there's more types of host objects than there are types of Object
  801. # [22:37] <Hixie> they're just objects implemented by the browser
  802. # [22:37] <SamB> where by special I mean different from things one can do in JavaScript code
  803. # [22:37] <Hixie> well obviously author code can't create objects implemented by not-author code
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  805. # [22:38] <SamB> well, yes, that part is clear
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  809. # [22:56] <odinho> I think they want to implement as many browser features as possible in javascript these days. And that might be part of the reason host objects seem to breaking their stride. Not having to go out from JIT or somesuch.
  810. # [22:56] <odinho> In case someone is following along at home and didn't already know.
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  815. # [23:03] <SamB> odinho: which "they"?
  816. # [23:04] <SamB> Chrome's chrome doesn't seem to be in JS ...
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  821. # [23:12] <mounir> Domenic: yt?
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  823. # [23:14] <Domenic> mounir: ya back
  824. # [23:15] <mounir> Domenic: i replied in the GH issue
  825. # [23:15] <mounir> Domenic: this thing is a bit frustrating :)
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  827. # [23:16] <Domenic> mounir: yeah, sorry...
  828. # [23:17] <mounir> Domenic: not your fault, mostly a tz problem
  829. # [23:17] <mounir> Domenic: I sud
  830. # [23:17] <mounir> I used to do non-office hours, it's hard to handle tz while doing office hours
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  871. # [23:55] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
  872. # [23:56] * Joins: SteveF (~chatzilla@cpc3-nmal20-2-0-cust916.19-2.cable.virginm.net)
  873. # [23:59] * Joins: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.44.231)
  874. # [23:59] * Quits: jeremyj (~jeremyj@17.202.44.231) (Client Quit)
  875. # Session Close: Tue Jul 01 00:00:00 2014

The end :)