/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-07-01 / end

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  48. # [01:19] <JonathanNeal> If an article displays comments for individual paragraphs, what does that markup look like? Is there a definitive element to use for the comments, like <blockquote> or <aside>? <p>Content</p><x>Comment</x>.
  49. # [01:20] <Hixie> <article> is the definitive element for comments
  50. # [01:20] <Hixie> assuming you mean reader comments
  51. # [01:20] <SamB> that's kind of dumb, since it's not really the same thing as a comment ...
  52. # [01:20] <Hixie> it really is
  53. # [01:20] <Hixie> see the spec
  54. # [01:20] <SamB> I've seen the spec!
  55. # [01:20] <Hixie> there's no difference between a person's comment, and a person's article, other than the writer of the article thinking they're special
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  57. # [01:21] <Hixie> (this is demonstrated really effectively by reddit)
  58. # [01:21] <SamB> reddit has articles?
  59. # [01:21] <Hixie> exactly.
  60. # [01:21] <SamB> I thought that thing was just the first comment
  61. # [01:21] <Hixie> there is no difference.
  62. # [01:21] <zewt> depends entirely on the site
  63. # [01:22] <Hixie> only superficially
  64. # [01:22] <SamB> maybe what I really mean is there ought to mark up what is being replied to ...
  65. # [01:22] <zewt> comments are very different on stackoverflow (but stackoverflow's comment system is completely worthless and not really a good example)
  66. # [01:22] <SamB> if anything
  67. # [01:22] <SamB> indeed, SO comments are totally not deserving of <article>
  68. # [01:22] <Hixie> zewt: stackoverflow's structure maps to <article> very well also
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  70. # [01:23] <zewt> i have no idea what the point of "<article>" is in the first place (but I'm usually in the "mostly divs" camp)
  71. # [01:23] <Hixie> SamB: it is marked up. it's whatever the parent <article> is.
  72. # [01:23] <SamB> Hixie: that doesn't distinguish replies from quotations!
  73. # [01:23] <Hixie> the point of <article> (and all the other "block-level" elements) is to kill divs :-)
  74. # [01:23] <Hixie> SamB: quotations are marked up with <blockquote>
  75. # [01:23] <Hixie> not <article>
  76. # [01:24] <SamB> what if you repost a whole article in your article?
  77. # [01:24] <Hixie> then you put it in <blockquote>
  78. # [01:25] <JonathanNeal> I follow. If one paragraph has a few, ordered comments, are those comments then grouped by a <section>?
  79. # [01:26] <Hixie> yeah, or aside, probably
  80. # [01:26] <Hixie> (section is probably better than aside)
  81. # [01:26] <JonathanNeal> As opposed to, say, <ol><li><article/><li><article/></ol>
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  83. # [01:26] <JonathanNeal> That feels all kinds of wrong to me, but I don’t know the spec well enough to justify the feeling.
  84. # [01:26] <Hixie> i personally wouldn't consider it a list in the <ol> sense, but some people would advocate for that and i wouldn't say they're wrong
  85. # [01:30] <JonathanNeal> My feeling is: Not everything that is ordered is a list. Any article can be made of paragraphs dispalyed in a certain order. To be a list, that requires intent to absorb the list items as connected to each other.
  86. # [01:31] <JonathanNeal> So, <section><article/><article/></section> is okay because an article “could be a forum post, a magazine or newspaper article, a blog entry, a user-submitted comment”. Thanks!
  87. # [01:31] * Hixie nods
  88. # [01:31] <Hixie> yeah that's why i wouldn't put it in a list either
  89. # [01:32] <SamB> Hixie: the other problem I have with the "nest them" idea is that I normally think of the comments as coming *after* the article they comment on ...
  90. # [01:33] <Hixie> you can put them anywhere you want, before, middle (like JonathanNeal is saying), after, on a different page, whatever you want
  91. # [01:34] <SamB> hmm, screw it, lets just use an mbox ;-P
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  102. # [02:09] <Domenic> Apparently web-platform-tests differs with the HTML standard about whether input type="email" should be selectable? https://github.com/tmpvar/jsdom/pull/804#issuecomment-47602028
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  127. # [03:20] <zewt> "a principled stance" is a fascinating phrase (assumes that the speaker's set of principles are the only valid ones)
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  195. # [06:02] <Hixie> this whole TAG thing is pretty hilarious
  196. # [06:02] <Hixie> i love that all these people think they can only contribute if they're in the TAG
  197. # [06:02] * SamB suits up in his <HTML></HTML> tag
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  322. # [07:36] <cabanier> Hixie: TAG in general or did they make some statement?
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  348. # [09:11] <annevk> cabanier: see www-tag
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  351. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> zewt: no it does not assume that
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  353. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> zewt: I haven't read yet the context but in general it doesn't imply that at all
  354. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> zewt: in fact it often implies the opposite
  355. # [09:35] <MikeSmith> zewt: it's often used to acknowledge that while you disagree with someone else's argument, you respect the position they've taken on it as being one based on principles, though you may disagree with the priorities of those principles over other concerns, or with the principles themselves
  356. # [09:36] <MikeSmith> Domenic: if the tests differs from the spec then it should be raised as an wpt issue and/or as a PR
  357. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> Domenic: ah I see you already said as much in the issue thread
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  359. # [09:43] <SamB> MikeSmith: as in a "wow they're really sticking to their principles" type of thing?
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  361. # [09:57] <jgraham> Domenic: If the spec and the tests disagree it's presumably a bug in the tests.
  362. # [09:58] <jgraham> Oh, MikeSmith just said that
  363. # [09:58] <jgraham> I should apparently not read a randomly selected subset of the scrollback
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  372. # [10:23] <annevk> MikeSmith: I opened https://github.com/masinter/multipart-form-data/issues/17
  373. # [10:23] <annevk> I'll also watch the repository for a bit
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  375. # [10:26] <odinho> SamB: Well, in fact chrome. I think it makes sense to develop more of the web platform in javascript. From low-level primitives given from the engine c++ land.
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  379. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> annevk: gool
  380. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> erp cool
  381. # [10:46] <jgraham> Oh, I assumed that was an unlikely typo for "good". Although now it sounds like some sort of football celebration
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  387. # [11:01] <annevk> I thought it was a reference to https://twitter.com/hober/status/483296410108833793 & https://twitter.com/hober/status/483296772941283328
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  404. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> "Web Components as currently designed cannot explain the behavior of any built-in elements (except maybe those which can be explained with CSS alone)."
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  422. # [12:07] <JakeA> annevk: body.asJSON - we decided they consume the stream rather than tee it, right? Was there a reason for that? Maybe it should tee.
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  424. # [12:21] <annevk> JakeA: as*allthethings don't tee
  425. # [12:21] <annevk> JakeA: elaborate?
  426. # [12:22] <JakeA> annevk: If they tee, you can call them multiple times, or call asBlob then asText. I'm not sure it's intuitive that they're one-off at the moment. What's the advantage?
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  428. # [12:23] <annevk> JakeA: you don't have to keep the response around
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  430. # [12:24] <JakeA> annevk: I can see that being an issue if the object is kept in reference long after calling asWhatever, not sure that's likely though
  431. # [12:25] <annevk> The design of responseType / response on XMLHttpRequest was exactly because of this
  432. # [12:26] <annevk> The original design of having both responseText and responseXML was a memory issue, and that's why we didn't add responseBlob
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  439. # [12:33] <JakeA> annevk: adding responseBlob wouldn't have added extra memory overhead though, the blob would have been constructed as part of the getter right?
  440. # [12:34] <annevk> JakeA: the problem was that you could never toss away the original bytes if someone e.g. had already asked for responseText
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  442. # [12:35] <annevk> JakeA: if streams support something like tee(), then subclasses of streams will too, and you could just do .body.tee().asText()
  443. # [12:36] <JakeA> annevk: Yeah, I get the original bytes thing, I didn't realise that'd be a huge problem as the object is likely to get gc'd shortly afterwards anyway. But yeah, body.tee().asText() seems fine.
  444. # [12:39] <annevk> I think people are rightly concerned about memory usage. If we offer a low-level API such as this it seems good to make that usage explicit.
  445. # [12:40] <annevk> We will need to support a tee operation, there's numerous places that require tee/copy
  446. # [12:40] <JakeA> slightlyoff: see above.
  447. # [12:40] <annevk> E.g. the stream that is passed to fetch()'s Request object will need to be teed
  448. # [12:40] <JakeA> Yeah, makes sense
  449. # [12:40] <annevk> tee'd?
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  451. # [12:42] <annevk> JakeA: we are going to rename navigate to "topframe" and "child" to "frame" most likely
  452. # [12:42] <annevk> JakeA: see https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26247
  453. # [12:43] <annevk> jungkees: ^^
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  457. # [12:46] <JakeA> annevk: feels like we need a "navigate" helper to cover "topframe", "frame" and "popup"
  458. # [12:46] <JakeA> since navigates are the cases you'd want to provide a "no connection" fallback page, or something
  459. # [12:47] <annevk> JakeA: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/345
  460. # [12:47] <annevk> JakeA: "client request" was that term
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  463. # [12:48] <annevk> JakeA: as you demonstrate, "navigate" makes you forget about workers
  464. # [12:49] <JakeA> annevk: that was deliberate, in this case
  465. # [12:50] <JakeA> annevk: I wouldn't want to serve up a "Sorry no connection" page in response to a sharedworker request
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  468. # [12:50] <JakeA> annevk: But I understand why sharedworkers are in that grouping, as they can make requests themselves
  469. # [12:51] <annevk> isNavigateRequest, isClientRequest could be on Request I suppose
  470. # [12:51] <annevk> Or on FetchEvent, depending on where context/client end up
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  472. # [12:52] <annevk> We also haven't really dealt with <object> yet
  473. # [12:53] <JakeA> annevk: <img src="//otherorigin/whatever.svg"> - is this a client request?
  474. # [12:53] <JakeA> I guess not
  475. # [12:53] <annevk> no
  476. # [12:53] <JakeA> but will requests triggered by whatever.svg go through the page's SW, and are we leaking by doing so?
  477. # [12:53] <annevk> client requests and resource requests are mutually exclusive
  478. # [12:53] <JakeA> I guess it's the same as CSS at that point
  479. # [12:53] <annevk> (except maybe for <object>, which does both...)
  480. # [12:54] <annevk> if you load an SVG as an image it cannot do any further fetches
  481. # [12:54] <JakeA> annevk: hopefully we can reuse a lot of appcache's mess when it comes to <object>
  482. # [12:54] <JakeA> annevk: ah, phew, problem solved
  483. # [12:55] <annevk> (at least not network fetches)
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  485. # [12:56] <hsivonen_> is there a term to describe something that looks like trolling but may not be motivated by trolling intent?
  486. # [12:56] * hsivonen_ is now known as hsivonen
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  489. # [12:58] <hsivonen> like appealing to the behavior of "newer browsers" when requesting a spec change and giving Emacs Web Wowser as an example of such a newer browser
  490. # [12:58] <annevk> pedant
  491. # [12:58] <jgraham> Doesn't sound like pedantry
  492. # [12:59] <jgraham> Sounds like being divorced from the real world
  493. # [13:00] * annevk finds phantasmagoric
  494. # [13:01] <annevk> That's some phantasmagoric shit right there
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  496. # [13:01] <annevk> JakeA: maybe we should just not do the weird thing appcache did and always route them through the SW?
  497. # [13:02] <annevk> meh
  498. # [13:02] <annevk> hard
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  500. # [13:06] <JakeA> annevk: which SW?
  501. # [13:07] <Ms2ger> annevk, JakeA: please don't call it tee(), though
  502. # [13:07] <JakeA> annevk: the page's or the one that would be used if it were a navigation
  503. # [13:08] <annevk> JakeA: the page
  504. # [13:09] <annevk> JakeA: although I guess sometimes you do know upfront the page wants to navigate
  505. # [13:09] <annevk> JakeA: well, does <object name=x></object> <a href=... target=x>...</a> work? would need to test :/
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  507. # [13:15] <jungkees> annevk: thanks for the pointer. will keep an eye on it
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  511. # [13:24] <hsivonen> annevk: you might be interested in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1003716
  512. # [13:24] <hsivonen> particularly, exposing menus that have items for both ISO-8859-1 and windows-1252 to the user
  513. # [13:24] <hsivonen> even though both encode and decode the same
  514. # [13:25] <hsivonen> so it's basically exposing the decision of which label to put in email headers to the user
  515. # [13:25] <hsivonen> which is sad UI
  516. # [13:25] <hsivonen> I'm not sure if I have the stamina to bikeshed that one anymore
  517. # [13:26] <hsivonen> (Thunderbird has code that specifically picks the windows-1252 encoder even if the outgoing encoding is ISO-8859-1, which is a distinc encoding internally in Gecko, still)
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  523. # [13:31] <annevk> hsivonen: why do they even expose technical terms to end users?
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  526. # [13:46] <JakeA> annevk: so the page SW would control the load of the <object></object> document, but what about the subresources? Through the child document's SW?
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  536. # [14:17] <annevk> JakeA: hmm yeah, would have to do some more digging as to how that entire thing is setup
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  540. # [14:19] <annevk> hsivonen: fwiw, I do think that new software should use the Encoding Standard, otherwise we get into the situation where for each format there's a debate about whether the Encoding Standard can be a normative reference
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  542. # [14:19] <annevk> hsivonen: which would just suck and complicate everything for no good reason
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  552. # [14:59] <Jirka_> annevk: if all new software will use the Encoding Standard and non-UTF encodings will be allowed then you will loose interop with existing encoding libraries in JDK/.NET/iconv/...
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  556. # [15:03] <annevk> Jirka_: yes
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  558. # [15:05] <zewt> it's not really losing interop if they didn't have interop with each other in the first place
  559. # [15:10] <Jirka_> annevk: What about spliting the Encoding Standard into two documents -- one will define only UTF-8 related stuff and JS APIs and second will define how to handle legacy web resources in non-UTF encodings. Any new software will be then built on top UTF-8-only Encoding Standard, no need to deal (and possibly create confusion) with legacy encodings
  560. # [15:12] <caitp> yeah you can never have to many documents to not read!
  561. # [15:12] <caitp> oh man, typo ruined sarcasm =(
  562. # [15:12] <zewt> if people won't follow a simple "only use utf-8" instruction, breaking specs apart isn't going to help--and it's a pain in the ass to do, for everyone involved
  563. # [15:13] <annevk> Jirka_: I don't really see what problem that solves
  564. # [15:13] <annevk> Does this make sense:
  565. # [15:13] <annevk> <p>To <dfn>byte lowercase</dfn> a byte sequence, means replacing any byte in the range
  566. # [15:13] <annevk> 0x41 to 0x5A of the byte sequence with their corresponding byte in the range 0x61 to 0x7A.
  567. # [15:13] <annevk> s/means replacing/replace/
  568. # [15:14] <zewt> also it seems like the entire point of "new software should use this spec" is exactly *for* legacy encodings ... interop on utf-8 itself isn't a problem
  569. # [15:14] <annevk> there's some interop problems around utf-8, but yes
  570. # [15:14] <zewt> annevk: makes sense but does require interpretation
  571. # [15:14] <annevk> should I do s/their/the/?
  572. # [15:15] <zewt> the only interop issue with utf-8 i've really seen is overlong sequences, and that's uncommon
  573. # [15:15] <annevk> I'm not talking about 5/6 byte sequences, but amount of U+FFFD emitted during error handling
  574. # [15:16] <jgraham> annevk: s/their/the/ is what I was going to suggest
  575. # [15:16] <zewt> could say something like "adding 0x20 to any byte of the byte sequence in the range 0x41 to 0x5A"
  576. # [15:16] <annevk> that might be better
  577. # [15:16] <annevk> thanks
  578. # [15:16] <zewt> is it clear that it's an inclusive range
  579. # [15:17] <zewt> (aside from "duh")
  580. # [15:18] <annevk> <p>To <dfn>byte lowercase</dfn> a byte sequence, increase each byte it contains in the range 0x41 to 0x5A by 0x20.
  581. # [15:18] <Jirka_> annevk: current reading of the Encoding Standards and legacy encodings seems to cover all usages of legacy encodings and not only those on the web.
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  583. # [15:18] <annevk> zewt: yeah, I need to clarify that at some point, that's a bigger issue though :/
  584. # [15:19] <annevk> Jirka_: yes that is intended
  585. # [15:19] <annevk> Jirka_: it would be weird to allow some CSS or XML to be interpreted in different ways
  586. # [15:19] <zewt> i imagine there are many encodings that exist but which aren't used on the web, in which case they wouldn't be in the encoding spec (but I guess if that's a problem for some cases they could write a spec for just those encodings)
  587. # [15:20] <zewt> (that are used, not just exist)
  588. # [15:22] <annevk> It would be a problem if they leak, which is why I think protocols and formats ought to be based on the Encoding Standard or only allow utf-8
  589. # [15:22] <zewt> heh i think ircd does case-insensitive comparisons with just chr | 0x20, since iirc it treats { and } as equal to [ and ] for nicks
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  591. # [15:22] <annevk> (and then the flavor of utf-8 defined by the Encoding Standard)
  592. # [15:22] <Jirka_> annevk: IMHO legacy encoding in CSS could (and should be) handled in the same way as in HTML. However for legacy encodings XML parsers in browsers are not interoperable -- neither between some browsers not with non-browser implementations
  593. # [15:23] <zewt> (not aware of there being multiple "flavors" of utf-8)
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  595. # [15:23] <annevk> Jirka_: browsers are not always interoperable either when it comes to encodings, I would consider all that to be a bug
  596. # [15:23] <annevk> zewt: error handling issue mentioned above
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  601. # [15:30] <caitp> zewt: iirc there are bits reserved for application-specific purposes which might be accidentally transmitted and understood differently by different agents --- I can't recall what that's called, though. so you could think of that as "different flavours"
  602. # [15:30] <zewt> i'd call that "not utf-8 at all"
  603. # [15:30] <caitp> well, it's not meant to be exposed to anyone outside of the application, that's for sure =)
  604. # [15:31] <caitp> just think of it as utf8 with some extra bonus garbage
  605. # [15:31] <annevk> I'm not talking about CESU-8 or variants of that
  606. # [15:31] <zewt> not aware of any "reserved bits" in utf-8, either
  607. # [15:31] <caitp> CESU-8, that sounds like what I'm thinking of
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  609. # [15:33] <zewt> i wonder if it's possible to satisfy the FFFE definition (efficiently) while seeking backwards in utf-8
  610. # [15:33] <zewt> guessing not
  611. # [15:35] <zewt> actually you probably could... that is, generate FFFEs without having to seek backwards without bound to figure out how many to generate (but you don't actually need to know how many, only whether you should be generating one more or not)
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  613. # [15:39] <Philip`> zewt: (JNI has its own special UTF-8 - http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/technotes/guides/jni/spec/types.html#wp16542)
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  615. # [15:39] <zewt> that's also just Not UTF-8(tm)
  616. # [15:39] * Philip` has no idea how likely that is to leak out in the external world
  617. # [15:42] <caitp> it's not the greatest encoding in the world, it's just a tribute
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  621. # [15:54] <JakeA> annevk: In APIs like thingOfThings.create(newThingName), if newThingName already exists, do we generally throw or return the existing thing?
  622. # [15:54] <JakeA> In idb it throws. Any other cases?
  623. # [15:55] <JakeA> annevk: Going to change the caches API. Rather than caches.add(name, new Cache(...)) it'll be caches.create(name).then(function(cache) {})
  624. # [15:55] <JakeA> Trying to work out what's best if the cache already exists
  625. # [15:55] <jgraham> Create not creating seems pretty confusing
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  627. # [15:57] <jgraham> (if you called it "set" it would be less confusing)
  628. # [15:57] <JakeA> I guess if you want the get-or-create behaviour it's caches.get(name).catch(e => caches.create(name))
  629. # [15:58] <jgraham> Actually I guess it wouldn't
  630. # [15:58] <annevk> JakeA: well e.g. createElement() would always succeed
  631. # [15:58] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, but what about where the name is unique (like caches or idb databases)
  632. # [15:59] <annevk> JakeA: throwing or overwriting seems expected from maps?
  633. # [15:59] <jgraham> Yeah, there isn't much precedent on the platform for having this kind of datastructure
  634. # [15:59] <jgraham> Right, I was assuming that overwriting wasn't sensible for some reason
  635. # [16:00] <jgraham> if it is, then I would really expect that
  636. # [16:01] <JakeA> Yeah, that works pretty well. So caches.create(name) would replace 'name' with an empty cache even if one existed
  637. # [16:02] <annevk> JakeA: if it's a map, maybe just name it set then
  638. # [16:02] <annevk> JakeA: although at that point you're back at add() :p
  639. # [16:02] <jgraham> It's an async map, right?
  640. # [16:03] <jgraham> Only not quite
  641. # [16:03] <JakeA> jgraham: Sorta, but we're not defining an async map type
  642. # [16:03] <jgraham> It's an async default map
  643. # [16:03] <jgraham> JakeA: Well you are, just in DOM rather than ES
  644. # [16:03] <jgraham> Which is fine
  645. # [16:04] <JakeA> Here's the pattern I'm looking at https://gist.github.com/jakearchibald/69bdd0c49d205717963e
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  648. # [16:05] <JakeA> "set" doesn't feel right. I'd expect "set" to take two args, key & value.
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  650. # [16:07] <jgraham> Yeah, I agree
  651. # [16:08] <jgraham> This is doing special magic with the key to implicitly create a value
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  653. # [16:08] <jgraham> Or maybe not with the key
  654. # [16:08] * parshap__ is now known as parshap
  655. # [16:08] <JakeA> I don't think there's any magic
  656. # [16:08] <JakeA> it's just the key
  657. # [16:08] <JakeA> it's not like createElement
  658. # [16:09] <JakeA> caches.create(name) caches.get(name) caches.delete(name)
  659. # [16:09] <JakeA> it's most similar to idb's create database method
  660. # [16:10] <JakeA> (which throws if a database of that name already exists, so we could do the same as that, but I'm not convinced idb is a great thing to copy)
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  662. # [16:10] <jgraham> Sure. I just mean that it's not a generic operation, it's specific to this particular type of object
  663. # [16:10] <JakeA> yeah
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  665. # [16:11] <jgraham> (or, I guess, it is probably something that *could* be applicable to many types of objects, but you would need some kind of protocol for specifying the code that create() runs to generate a value. Which doesn't seem worth abstracting out)
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  668. # [16:14] <annevk> JakeA: so is it a map or a set of caches?
  669. # [16:15] <jgraham> annevk: IAFAICT it's an (async) map of caches
  670. # [16:16] <jgraham> *AFAICT
  671. # [16:16] <annevk> oh right, name -> cache
  672. # [16:16] <annevk> sorry
  673. # [16:16] <annevk> so yeah, create makes sense
  674. # [16:17] <JakeA> annevk: What jgraham said, although all values are forced to be caches, all keys are forced to be strings, uniqueness is enforced in values
  675. # [16:17] <annevk> I think following IDB and throwing is fine for duplicates, provided there's has()
  676. # [16:17] <annevk> You probably don't want to accidentally erase a bunch of resources
  677. # [16:18] <annevk> JakeA: please do respond to the various issues open against this API btw
  678. # [16:18] <JakeA> annevk: Problems with the current API: var myCache = new Cache(); caches.add('foo', myCache); caches.add('bar', myCache);
  679. # [16:18] <annevk> JakeA: especially the one about it having the wrong name
  680. # [16:18] <annevk> JakeA: what if instead you did it as new Cache(name)
  681. # [16:18] <annevk> JakeA: and then cache.add(myCache)
  682. # [16:19] <annevk> and then cache.getByName(name)
  683. # [16:19] <annevk> so it's a set with identifiers on the objects
  684. # [16:20] <annevk> and add() would simply throw if either cache or name was already present
  685. # [16:21] <JakeA> annevk: Yeah, aware of the wrong name one. Not convinced "cache" is bad, but not strongly opposed to changing it.
  686. # [16:21] <annevk> I think the argument from Brendan about Cache not being persistent is quite persuasive
  687. # [16:22] <JakeA> yeah
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  689. # [16:25] <JakeA> annevk: So, var myCache = new Cache("static-v1"); caches.add(myCache); caches.getByName("static-v1")? That solves the unique issue, but feels weird being able to create these cache things without them being part of the thing that persists them.
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  692. # [16:26] <JakeA> Although I suppose that's true of blobs & idb too, but I don't think a cache is useful outside of caches
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  698. # [16:32] <JakeA> annevk: just saw https://twitter.com/annevk/status/483974642336825344
  699. # [16:32] <JakeA> ugh
  700. # [16:32] <annevk> heh, that's what I said
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  702. # [16:33] <JakeA> I'm not aware of the consensus here
  703. # [16:33] <annevk> JakeA: so with this you could imagine transferring the Cache() between apps
  704. # [16:33] <annevk> JakeA: you can transfer it between domains even if we support cloning on it
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  706. # [16:34] <JakeA> annevk: Transferring between apps? Something like caches.copy(name, otherName)?
  707. # [16:34] <annevk> It seems like you need Cache to exist as an object either way
  708. # [16:34] <annevk> now like otherapp.postMessage(cache)
  709. # [16:35] <annevk> s/now/no/
  710. # [16:35] <annevk> potentially otherapp.postMessage(cache, [cache]) if we support transfering
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  712. # [16:36] <JakeA> caches.get(name).then(function(cache) { otherap.postMessage(cache); })
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  714. # [16:37] <annevk> yeah
  715. # [16:39] <JakeA> annevk: That's already possible in the .create & .get model, but if you got a cache via postmessage you wouldn't be able to get it back into caches. Hmm.
  716. # [16:41] <annevk> I kind of like what I proposed above
  717. # [16:41] <annevk> var files = new Cache(files); caches.add(files, ...)
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  719. # [16:42] <JakeA> new Cache("files"); right?
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  722. # [16:47] <Domenic> i agree that that is a bit weird ... not horrible though
  723. # [16:47] <JakeA> Domenic: what is?
  724. # [16:47] <Domenic> what is the problem with caches.set('name1', c); caches.set('name2', c) ?
  725. # [16:47] <Domenic> JakeA: var c = new Cache('name'); caches.add(c); seems a bit weird, but not horrible.
  726. # [16:48] <annevk> JakeA: yes
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  729. # [16:49] <JakeA> Domenic: having some caches be === feels complicated and unuseful
  730. # [16:49] <Domenic> JakeA: that's not my mental model. My mental model is there's still only one cache object, but it got put in two entries in the cache-map
  731. # [16:49] <Domenic> JakeA: the same as `var x = {}; var m = new Map(); m.set('key1', x); m.set('key2', x);`
  732. # [16:50] <Domenic> is that the wrong mental model?
  733. # [16:50] <JakeA> Domenic: No, but is there anywhere else we do that with permanent storage?
  734. # [16:51] <Domenic> JakeA: I dunno, but, is caches really a permanent storage model, or is it an async map?
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  736. # [16:51] <Domenic> that is, when you store something in caches, do you serialize it?
  737. # [16:51] <Domenic> i think serialization is what draws the line for "permanent storage" vs. "async map" for me
  738. # [16:51] <wanderview> annevk: it seems with |var files = new Cache(files); caches.add(files, ...)|, we would still might want to store stuff to disk even if it hasn't been added to caches yet
  739. # [16:52] <wanderview> annevk: otherwise someone could add many large resources to the cache and we would have to maintain them all in memory
  740. # [16:52] <Domenic> Yes, wanderview makes a good point... at what point do things get put into disk vs. in-memory?
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  742. # [16:53] <wanderview> I could see that as a common footgun too... new Cache, add all my resources, put in caches at the end
  743. # [16:53] <Domenic> well, until it gets GC'ed, I can't imagine ever being able to evict them from memory...
  744. # [16:53] <Domenic> just saying that you put it on disk doesn't mean it can move out of memory
  745. # [16:55] <wanderview> Domenic: can't we stream the resources to disk and only read into memory if there is an outstanding Promise<Response>?
  746. # [16:55] <JakeA> At the moment, in the current API: var cache = new Cache(); cache.add(things...);
  747. # [16:55] <JakeA> I'd expect stuff to be written to disk because of the memory issue
  748. # [16:55] <JakeA> but if that isn't added to `caches`, it'd be deleted when `cache` is gc'd
  749. # [16:56] <wanderview> JakeA: yea, I think thats possible, but its a bit of a complication to clean up the filesystem on GC I think
  750. # [16:56] <JakeA> The caches.create('name').then(c => c.add(things...)) model prevents that
  751. # [16:56] <Domenic> wanderview: if the things you add to the cache are accessible as local variables in JS anyway (including temporary ones), you can't remove them from memory until they get GCed ... right?
  752. # [16:57] <wanderview> Domenic: I guess I was thinking of the cache.add(requests...) case... where content is pre-loading the cache and not explicitly waiting for the response
  753. # [16:57] <Domenic> JakeA: OK, that is helpful. So we are saying in-memory caches are not useful? Or are we saying that new Cache() would still work, but caches.create('name') is a way of getting one that is synced to storage
  754. # [16:57] <JakeA> Although there's still cache.get('name').then(function(cache) { caches.delete('name'); })
  755. # [16:57] <JakeA> So deleting from disk on gc is still needed
  756. # [16:58] <Domenic> JakeA: for testability if nothing else I would think in-memory caches are useful.
  757. # [16:58] <JakeA> unless we can put cache objects in some kind of "disabled" state
  758. # [16:58] <Domenic> this is going down a dark path
  759. # [16:58] <wanderview> JakeA: or we replace caches.delete() with cache.deleteFromCaches() or something... but thats kind of ugly :-(
  760. # [16:59] <Domenic> wanderview: that doesn't help, cache still exists in memory.
  761. # [16:59] <Domenic> wanderview: unless deleteFromCaches() also puts it in some sort of disabled state
  762. # [16:59] <JakeA> the disabled state thing feels ugh
  763. # [16:59] <annevk> wanderview: hmm, don't we have an equivalent problem with new File() or new Blob()?
  764. # [16:59] <Domenic> yes please don't, if possible
  765. # [17:00] <wanderview> I think dealing with the GC file eviction is required
  766. # [17:00] <wanderview> annevk: yea, maybe its not the problem I think it is
  767. # [17:00] <JakeA> (brb, meeting)
  768. # [17:00] <wanderview> its a complication, but probably a solved one
  769. # [17:01] <Domenic> why is it caches.each() instead of caches.forEach() O_O
  770. # [17:01] <annevk> Domenic: the browser might serialize it
  771. # [17:02] <Domenic> annevk: can't tell what that's in response to
  772. # [17:02] <wanderview> question... var c = new Cache(); c.add(requests...); without putting in caches count against the origin's disk quota?
  773. # [17:02] <annevk> Domenic: or try to keep it alive in some other way
  774. # [17:02] <wanderview> I think it must as we will want the flexibility to save to disk at any time... just wanted to clarify since we were talking about "memory only" cache objects
  775. # [17:02] <annevk> Domenic: the cache API is a permanent storage model (and therefore has the wrong name)
  776. # [17:02] <Domenic> annevk: is the cache API permanent, or is the caches API permanent?
  777. # [17:03] <annevk> well only caches is something that survives a reboot
  778. # [17:03] <Domenic> wanderview: I think that makes sense, as long as the programmer's mental model is that it's entirely in-memory until explicitly saved?
  779. # [17:04] <Domenic> each vs. forEach filed https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/351
  780. # [17:05] <wanderview> Domenic: hmm... I guess I was trying to say I will want to write to disk immediately to allow us to GC memory when possible, so not sure we are on the same page... what is the "explicit save" step in your view?
  781. # [17:05] <Domenic> wanderview: well from my perspective that's what's being discussed in this chat :)
  782. # [17:05] <Domenic> wanderview: so e.g. in the existing `var c = new Cache(); caches.set('name', c)` API, the `caches.set()` step saves to disk
  783. # [17:06] <Domenic> wanderview: whereas in the `caches.create('name').then(c => ...)` API, it is created-and-saved in the same step
  784. # [17:06] <Domenic> although "saved" is the wrong word
  785. # [17:06] <Domenic> more like... "made into something that is backed by persistent storage"
  786. # [17:06] <Domenic> versus in-memory only (from the programmer's point of view, even if the implementation puts some stuff on disk for its own reasons)
  787. # [17:07] <Domenic> the `var c = new Cache(); /* never store it in caches */` usage would be "in memory only" and useful for testing and such.
  788. # [17:07] <wanderview> Domenic: hmm, so in that case it would *not* count against quota until the caches.set()
  789. # [17:07] <Domenic> I think so, yeah... if that works from a disallowing-abuse POV
  790. # [17:08] <Domenic> or maybe there are separate temporary and persistent quotas
  791. # [17:08] <annevk> Cache should use the same quota as Blob I suppose
  792. # [17:08] <annevk> but I can see how it all gets rather tricky :/
  793. # [17:08] <wanderview> Domenic: I guess I just worry about people waiting to call caches.set() at the end in order to avoid a partial cache object
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  796. # [17:09] <Domenic> annevk: agreed, same as Blob makes a lot of sense...
  797. # [17:09] <wanderview> I'm sure we can make it work
  798. # [17:09] <Domenic> wanderview: well, I think a caches.create('name') API would mitigate that
  799. # [17:09] <Domenic> the constructor could be a lower-level API used by unit tests and such
  800. # [17:10] <Domenic> whereas the best practice if you want a persistent cache would be caches.create
  801. # [17:10] <wanderview> Domenic: yea, I guess its an education issue (although at some point those become footguns)
  802. # [17:10] <Domenic> At this point it all makes sense in my head; curious what JakeA thinks :)
  803. # [17:11] <wanderview> Domenic: what is the advantage of memory-only for testing vs. what we recommend for production use?
  804. # [17:11] <JakeA> Domenic: will read through when this meeting is done (yey for meetings)
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  806. # [17:12] <Domenic> wanderview: if you are not very careful, you will fill up your persistent storage with repeated unit-test data
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  809. # [17:13] <wanderview> good point
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  826. # [17:36] <annevk> I emailed the HTTP WG about an issue... but why? *cries*
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  829. # [17:38] <caitp> it's going to be okay anne
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  832. # [17:41] <annevk> caitp: that's what they said last time
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  840. # [17:56] <SamB> Domenic: so this "save" is kind of like migrating stuff from /tmp or /var/cache to /var/lib ?
  841. # [17:57] <Domenic> SamB: from my perspective as a JS developer /tmp is an implementation detail of the browser
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  843. # [17:57] <Domenic> SamB: it could be in-memory for all I care
  844. # [17:57] <SamB> /tmp CAN be in-memory
  845. # [17:57] <SamB> anyway this is a metaphor
  846. # [17:57] <Domenic> yes, well, there you go
  847. # [17:57] <Domenic> the only observable thing (as far as I can tell) is whether the data survives a reboot
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  850. # [17:59] <SamB> and naturally, JS apps don't really get to complain if data turns out to survive that they wouldn't have expected to survive, right?
  851. # [17:59] <Domenic> well, it should not observably survive
  852. # [17:59] <SamB> hmm
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  854. # [17:59] <annevk> Domenic: is there a document that explains why we don't want to expose promise state?
  855. # [17:59] <SamB> so maybe not the /var/cache part then; that can only *theoretically* get nuked, afaict
  856. # [18:00] <SamB> I mean, stuff is still supposed to work if you nuke it, but I've not heard of any automatic process which would nuke it
  857. # [18:01] <Domenic> annevk: hmm. we don't want to expose, or we don't want to allow external modification of?
  858. # [18:01] <annevk> Domenic: don't expose I guess
  859. # [18:02] <Domenic> annevk: I don't think exposing is bad. Several promises libraries have promise.inspect() that returns e.g. { state: "fulfilled", value: [whatever] }
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  861. # [18:02] <Domenic> the use cases are dubious however
  862. # [18:02] <Domenic> i guess it kind of encourages zalgo code?
  863. # [18:03] <Domenic> if (promise.inspect().state === "fulfilled") { runUserCodeWith(promise.inspect().value); } else { promise.then(runUserCodeWith); }
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  866. # [18:03] <Domenic> zalgo in action
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  872. # [18:14] <annevk> ta
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  891. # [18:47] <JakeA> Domenic: re each vs forEach, we didn't want to use a name that may be taken by asyncmap, as the behaviour of cache.each may differ
  892. # [18:47] <JakeA> Oh you made a ticket
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  896. # [18:53] <JakeA> annevk: Domenic: exposing promise state would have helped in this case https://github.com/jakearchibald/trained-to-thrill/blob/master/www/static/js/app.js#L64-74 - means I wouldn't need showingLiveData.
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  898. # [18:54] <JakeA> Domenic: Done the read-back. Are you suggesting `caches.create('name')` work, but also `new Cache()`?
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  933. # [20:05] <Domenic> JakeA: yes, I think so, at least. new Cache() is in memory; caches.set('name', c) and/or c.makePersistentVia(caches) makes c persistent; caches.create('name') combines the two at once as a sugar layer
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  935. # [20:06] <annevk> JakeA: maybe file a bug on the promise spec?
  936. # [20:06] <annevk> Domenic: we need to start thinking about ES7-promises
  937. # [20:06] <annevk> Domenic: at least finally, we should add finally
  938. # [20:07] <Domenic> annevk: agreed on that one
  939. # [20:07] <Domenic> annevk: I can have an extension spec written up as an "ES7 track proposal" for next TC39; if everyone likes it then everyone can implement it ASAP.
  940. # [20:07] <Domenic> (ES is a living standard; they just don't know it yet.)
  941. # [20:07] <annevk> Domenic: sgtm (is that enough? :p)
  942. # [20:08] <Domenic> :P
  943. # [20:08] <Domenic> JakeA: I'm not sure the code would look *that* much better. I dunno, it's pretty rare. Perhaps more common than Promise.race, I'll grant you.
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  949. # [20:26] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2014/06/vats now with analogies
  950. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> _win 30
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  955. # [20:34] <Hixie> "ES is a living standard; they just don't know it yet" <- i wish it was that simple :-)
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  960. # [20:37] <Domenic> From the perspective of implementers, it's pretty close.
  961. # [20:38] <Domenic> the messaging is all screwed up
  962. # [20:38] <Domenic> but there are "ES7" things that are shipping, and "ES6" things that are nowhere near done or even started on implemnetatios
  963. # [20:38] <Domenic> and those ES7 things are locked whereas the ES6 things change all the time
  964. # [20:38] <Domenic> So stability is directly proportional to shipping or not
  965. # [20:39] <Domenic> and people are starting to realize this
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  967. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> Domenic, people *here* know that ;)
  968. # [20:42] <Domenic> annevk: those are good analogies
  969. # [20:42] <Hixie> it's definitely not a living standard in the HTML sense from the perspective of implementors, in my experience
  970. # [20:42] <Hixie> i've asked implementors "how about we add foo to ES" and they say "we can'd do that now, because ES is frozen"
  971. # [20:42] <Domenic> I feel like implementers are coming around. I might be over-optimistic.\
  972. # [20:42] <Domenic> O_O
  973. # [20:42] <annevk> Domenic: I love talking to Allen
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  1009. # [22:03] <Domenic> How do I create WebIDL "mixins" that don't appear in proto chains or on the global? Is it just [NoInterfaceObject] + always use implements, not : ?
  1010. # [22:06] <Ms2ger> Correct
  1011. # [22:07] <Ms2ger> The former for "on the global", the latter for "in proto chains"
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  1013. # [22:10] <MikeSmith> annevk: I know Dominic Clooney well enough to know that he wasn't trying to be contemptuous or dismissive in that bug comment
  1014. # [22:10] <MikeSmith> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=389124#c8
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  1016. # [22:14] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think he should have used different words there but I don't think his comments are indicative of trying to blow anything off
  1017. # [22:17] <tantek> MikeSmith - sorry I don't buy that. The very phrase "the consensus within Google" should NEVER be used to justify anything standards related.
  1018. # [22:17] <tantek> such a phrase is *political* not technical and is not helpful
  1019. # [22:18] <annevk> I got a bit pissed because various times I have heard about Google discussing things internally about service workers / fetch that are relevant to everyone in the community
  1020. # [22:18] <tantek> it also implies that there is a "internal standards process" at Google that happens before they send someone to "litigating" their work outside. Also a very poor choice of word.
  1021. # [22:18] <tantek> that kind of delayed open behavior is unacceptable
  1022. # [22:19] <tantek> so it's right for annevk to call them out on it
  1023. # [22:19] <tantek> annevk - you're right to be pissed.
  1024. # [22:19] <tantek> those that behave that way at Google have a cultural problem that is antithetical to open standards development.
  1025. # [22:19] <tantek> it's fine to "vet" or "double-check" ideas privately, with colleagues, co-workers etc.
  1026. # [22:20] <tantek> but any kind of "consensus" discussion should happen in an open space
  1027. # [22:20] <tantek> MikeSmith - I accept that there is no ill will. That's not the problem. The problem is one where individuals like in that thread don't even realize that their behavior (perhaps learned from internal culture) is antithetical to open standards development
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  1040. # [22:44] <MikeSmith> tantek: yeah like I said, I think he could have used some better words there. And yeah I think what he describes is probably not the process that's likely to produce the best results
  1041. # [22:45] <tantek> yeah. it however seems to shed light on what may be standard procecdure behind Google's walls. that's the larger concern
  1042. # [22:46] <Domenic> I think it's somewhat OK to put the job of interfacing with the wider world on one person's shoulders
  1043. # [22:46] <Domenic> Some people are intimidated by standards lists etc.
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  1046. # [22:49] <Ms2ger> position: sticky is gone from Blink? Bad for mobile perf?
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  1048. # [22:51] <MikeSmith> Domenic: I think most people are intimidated by standards lists. The ones who aren't are the odd exceptions
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  1050. # [22:51] <Ms2ger> That does seem like something we should improve
  1051. # [22:52] <Domenic> Specifiction seems unintimidating. Although not entirely useful (yet?).
  1052. # [22:52] <Ms2ger> Never heard of it
  1053. # [22:52] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: it's something Robin set up
  1054. # [22:53] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: so that automatically means you'll love it
  1055. # [22:53] <Ms2ger> Ha
  1056. # [22:54] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: discourse.specifiction.org
  1057. # [22:54] <Ms2ger> So what is it?
  1058. # [22:57] <JonathanNeal> Ms2ger: it’s an on topic chat room, slowed down.
  1059. # [22:58] <Ms2ger> Aha
  1060. # [22:58] <Domenic> I think of it as a prototype for replacing mailman
  1061. # [22:58] <Domenic> But right now everything is in one big forum so it's pretty unfocuse
  1062. # [22:58] <Ms2ger> So it's moving discussion away from where people expect it to be, without telling them?
  1063. # [22:58] <Ms2ger> That seems like somewhat poor form
  1064. # [22:59] <Domenic> Perhaps. It's an experiment, is the somewhat-buyable excuse.
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  1069. # [23:05] <JonathanNeal> I like that posts are more thought out than chat and easier to create than a full blog. I fear it might develop an aggressive mob mentality as I’ve seen in GitHub issues, Twitter threads, and the beccapurple Specifiction.
  1070. # [23:07] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.98.196) (Client Quit)
  1071. # [23:08] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  1073. # [23:08] <JonathanNeal> I would also recommend it for all of the creative ideas that appear there, and the notable contributors to the web who chime in with their own responses.
  1074. # [23:09] * Joins: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron)
  1075. # [23:10] <Domenic> The issue (aside from the now there are two things problem Ms2ger alludes to) is that it's not focused around any particular technology implementers care about. It's kind of like whatwg@whatwg.org in that way, if more people knew about it.
  1076. # [23:10] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@10.212-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: nn)
  1077. # [23:11] <Domenic> Except unlike whatwg@, you don't get a guarantee of a personal response from Hixie, so a lot of threads can just become developers saying "I'd like this" or "here's my bikeshed color" with no driving toward a solution.
  1078. # [23:12] <Hixie> "I think it's somewhat OK to put the job of interfacing with the wider world on one person's shoulders" <- that's not the problem, the problem is that this job should come _before_ making decisions, not after
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  1083. # [23:20] <Domenic> well, that's where we get into charitable vs. uncharitable interpretations. Charitable: we want it, and we hope Alex can argue for it successfully, so we're implementing now on that assumption. Uncharitable: we're doing it no matter what; Alex's job is to make other people fall in line.
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  1085. # [23:22] <tantek> What Hixie said about "this job should come _before_ making decisions, not after"
  1086. # [23:22] <tantek> that.
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  1088. # [23:23] <tantek> Domenic, care to explain how you're interpreting anything charitable from "consensus within Google" ?
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  1090. # [23:23] <tantek> which sounds awfully like "done deal within Google"
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  1092. # [23:23] <tantek> and "litigating" sounds like force. I mean at least say something like "negotiating" but even that is bad as it sounds antagonistic.
  1093. # [23:24] <Domenic> tantek: I am trying, and possibly failing to combat I'm-a-Googler-now bias. But to me it sounds like "after talking with our security folks, this is the solution we thought would work."
  1094. # [23:24] <Domenic> And yes, litigating sounds very bad. Perhaps a word someone who is scared of standards bodies would use.
  1095. # [23:25] <SamB> who said that word?
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  1098. # [23:26] <SamB> and I thought it was more like "now there are 17 competing specs"
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  1100. # [23:26] <tantek> Domenic - I can understand people disliking (whether for fear or other reasons) standards bodies, or in particular standards mailing lists.
  1101. # [23:26] <tantek> SamB talking about https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=389124#c8
  1102. # [23:26] <SamB> though actually that didn't work out so bad for "menu"
  1103. # [23:27] <SamB> I mean, it's kind of dying now that .desktop has come along, but before that it was pretty darn useful
  1104. # [23:27] <Domenic> oooh i wonder how the Blink <menu> implementation is coming along
  1105. # [23:27] <Domenic> will be so exciting to have that be more than just a Firefox-only feature
  1106. # [23:28] * Domenic still likes most of the stuff Hixie has come up with, even in our brave new web components world where everyone builds their own
  1107. # [23:28] <SamB> "menu" being the debian package that let other packages ship menu entries in *one* format for all WMs
  1108. # [23:28] <SamB> even though they all had their own menu formats
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  1110. # [23:31] <tantek> "world where everyone builds their own" is merely XML "2.0" (in contrast to actual "XML 2.0")
  1111. # [23:31] <tantek> I'm going to grab a big bag of popcorn to watch that show
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  1115. # [23:39] <SamB> hmm, if the idea is to prevent trouble with sites that DON'T WANT service workers, how is a new header on the REQUEST going to help AT ALL?
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  1122. # [23:54] <SamB> hmm, I guess it could help when a site becomes AWARE of the rogue SW during the 24-hour window
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  1125. # Session Close: Wed Jul 02 00:00:00 2014

The end :)