/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-07-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 10 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:06] <cabanier> Domenic: ping
  9. # [00:06] <Domenic> cabanier: pong
  10. # [00:07] <cabanier> Domenic: about the DOMRectReadonly object, why can't we treat it as just an interface?
  11. # [00:07] <Domenic> cabanier: what is an interface? WebIDL interface === JavaScript class
  12. # [00:07] <cabanier> Domenic: it seems you're going out of your way to make it the same object.
  13. # [00:08] <Domenic> cabanier: I agree, but that is roc's requirement, so that you can monkeypatch a common prototype class. My suggestion was just to have a DOMRectUtils mixin.
  14. # [00:08] <cabanier> Domenic: even if it has no constructor?
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  16. # [00:08] <Domenic> cabanier: yes; remember there is no such thing as "no constructor" in JS, just "constructor which throws unless you pass it a secret"
  17. # [00:09] <cabanier> Domenic: but there are a lot of objects like that in the web platform. You can't new a canvas element for instance
  18. # [00:09] <Domenic> cabanier: EXCEPT that WebIDL has a special exception for interfaces that are [NoInterfaceObject] and only ever used with `inherits` instead of `:`; those are called "supplemental interfaces"
  19. # [00:09] <cabanier> Domenic: maybe domrectreadonly should be a dictionary
  20. # [00:09] <Domenic> cabanier: yes, and we are trying to fix those
  21. # [00:09] <Domenic> cabanier: well, that might be OK, but what about the left/right/top/bottom :-/
  22. # [00:10] <cabanier> Domenic: var c = new HTMLCanvasElement(); ?
  23. # [00:10] <cabanier> Domenic: too bad that those attributes already shipped....
  24. # [00:11] <cabanier> Domenic: can't they be implemented with JS? I agree it's failry magical
  25. # [00:11] <Domenic> cabanier: I think they are useful... either separate DOMQuadBounds and DOMRect classes, or DOMRectReadOnly and DOMRect classes, seem OK.
  26. # [00:11] <cabanier> s/failry/fairly
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  28. # [00:12] <Domenic> cabanier: sorry, can't what be implemented with JS?
  29. # [00:12] <cabanier> left/right/top/bottom as attribute getter functions that do the calculation
  30. # [00:12] <gsnedders> why not?
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  32. # [00:13] <Domenic> they could be, but then there would be separate getters for every instance... classes are nice since they let you reuse getters (or methods) across multiple instances
  33. # [00:14] <cabanier> Domenic: but a dictionary defines everything new every time so that would be consistent
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  35. # [00:14] <Domenic> cabanier: yeah, it'd be consistent, agreed. A little wasteful I guess, but not horrible.
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  37. # [00:20] <cabanier> Domenic: then DOMRectReadOnly would just be an Object and DOMQuad would keep a reference to that object
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  46. # [00:37] <Domenic> cabanier: that seems to kind of contradict the stated design goals, e.g. then people can modify quad.bounds.x and it'll be inconsistent with the quad itself. But I know a lot of people would argue that's more JavaScriptey anyway---the reflection of the object in the API can be messed with, even if the quad itself is not impacted.
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  48. # [00:39] <cabanier> Domenic: can 'x' not be readonly in the dictionary?
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  51. # [00:40] <Domenic> cabanier: well, I guess it could be a "dictionary" full of getters? E.g. `{ get x() { return 5; }, get y() { return 10; } }`
  52. # [00:41] <cabanier> Domenic: yes, for a quad they would pull it out of the quad.
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  55. # [00:46] <Domenic> cabanier: I guess I don't see the advantage over a DOMQuadBounds class?
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  57. # [00:47] <Domenic> cabanier: you end up writing a (browser-internal) factory function that is e.g. createRectDictionaryFromDomQuad(quad) { return { get x() { ... }, ... } }
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  59. # [00:47] <Domenic> cabanier: which doesn't seem any better than creating a (user-exposed) constructor function DOMQuadBounds(quad) { ... }
  60. # [00:48] <Domenic> both are better than a throw-without-secret constructor, definitely
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  63. # [00:49] <Domenic> (note that you can't hide constructors in JS, since they are always accessible via the .constructor property on instances. Whereas factory functions that return simple objects can be hidden.)
  64. # [00:49] <cabanier> Domenic: you avoid exposing another object to the global namespace
  65. # [00:50] <cabanier> Domenic: and avoid type checking when you pass in a DOMRectReadOnly
  66. # [00:50] <Domenic> cabanier: I think you can accomplish both of those though. The type checking definitely; input should never be a DOMRectReadOnly, just a DOMRectInit or something
  67. # [00:51] <cabanier> Domenic: yes.
  68. # [00:51] <Domenic> cabanier: the avoiding-exposing-an-object thing is a bit trickier since we'd need to fix WebIDL. But there is no reason in JS you cannot both (a) have a constructor; (b) decide not to make a global variable pointing to that constructor.
  69. # [00:51] <Domenic> The fact that having a constructor means it must be on the global in WebIDL is just a bug in WebIDL.
  70. # [00:52] <Domenic> it'll be a very bad bug once browsers start shipping modules :P
  71. # [00:52] <cabanier> Domenic: it might be a fundamental browser feature
  72. # [00:52] <cabanier> Domenic: so fixing it might take a while, if you can even convince them to do so
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  74. # [00:53] <cabanier> s/feature/design flaw/
  75. # [00:53] <Domenic> cabanier: that's fair. But we could have a spec that's slightly ahead of the browsers here. And browsers could either expose an extra global (risky), or have a throwing constructor. But as long as the throwing constructor is spec-uncompliant, I am happy.
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  77. # [00:57] <cabanier> Domenic: thanks! I'm going to ponder this a bit (it's time to go to sleep :-))
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  80. # [00:58] <Domenic> cabanier: sounds good! glad I could help :)
  81. # [00:59] <cabanier> Domenic: yes, the spec will definitely get better
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  109. # [01:49] <Hixie> dreamhost is moving the whatwg.org server to a different back-end to see if that improves performance
  110. # [01:49] <Hixie> site will be down until dns propagates
  111. # [01:50] <SamB> Hixie: why can't they propagate DNS first :-(
  112. # [01:50] <Hixie> because that would just mean the site was down earlier?
  113. # [01:51] <SamB> I mean, er, set up new backend, then wait for dns to propagate, then take down old one. I guess it would be important to flip the wiki to read-only though ...
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  116. # [01:55] <Hixie> SamB: not just the wiki
  117. # [01:56] <Hixie> anyway, dns has propagated
  118. # [01:56] <SamB> oh okay
  119. # [01:56] <SamB> I guess a big name like them *would* remeber the "lower TTL first" step
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  125. # [02:30] <zewt_> some aws stuff is designed around expecting low ttl always (on the order of ~60s)
  126. # [02:30] * zewt_ is now known as zewt
  127. # [02:31] <zewt> it's a bit bizarre that apparently firefox still ignores TTL, even though it breaks anything hosted on amazon ELB
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  132. # [02:36] <caitp> sounds like good material for a bug
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  134. # [02:37] <zewt> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=151929 filed 12 years ago
  135. # [02:38] <caitp> nice
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  137. # [02:40] <zewt> certainly a bigger bug today than it was then
  138. # [02:40] <caitp> well, 12 years and no attachments shows some commitment :s
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  151. # [04:01] <Hixie> how do other browsers honour ttl if the OS doesn't expose it?
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  156. # [04:11] <zewt> the OS DNS does handle ttl, but iirc firefox has its own caching layer that doesn't
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  158. # [04:12] <zewt> if they're using the OS to do the underlying DNS and it doesn't expose TTL, then they either need to 1: not use the OS resolver at all to get the info or 2: lose the extra caching layer
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  161. # [04:14] <SamB> zewt: might not be *totally* insane to cache for, say, a minute despite not knowing TTL
  162. # [04:15] <zewt> afaik they're caching for longer than that (five minutes or something)
  163. # [04:15] <zewt> amazon ELB instances have a ttl of around 45-60 seconds
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  247. # [08:14] <dbpokorny> what's with all of the asm.js hate?
  248. # [08:14] <dbpokorny> why did everybody decide to put their head in the ground at exactly the same time?
  249. # [08:15] <dbpokorny> Why can't I put my MacDraw picture in the cloud?
  250. # [08:15] <dbpokorny> Why can't I put my HyperCard stack in the cloud?
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  253. # [08:18] <SamB> dbpokorny: asm.js hate?
  254. # [08:19] <SamB> and what's this about not being able to store those files in the cloud ... ?
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  257. # [08:21] <dbpokorny> For example "assembly is inherently incompatible with the web". This is the ultimate source of what is and is not web.
  258. # [08:22] <SamB> asm.js is probably not what they think
  259. # [08:23] <dbpokorny> I bring up MacDraw and HyperCard because they currently require pce.js to run, which requires asm.js.
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  275. # [08:55] <dbpokorny> *sigh* so stuff like this "image decoding *can't* be done efficiently in script"
  276. # [08:55] <dbpokorny> I mean, it is being done in script. That train has left
  277. # [08:57] <dbpokorny> Are compiler writers so scarce that people simply believe language translation is not possible?
  278. # [08:57] <SamB> it is better if you can let the browser do it rather than insisting on wasting memory in every ... single ... tab
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  280. # [08:57] <dbpokorny> I agree
  281. # [08:58] <SamB> okay, so no lecture about sharing code pages necessary then ;-)
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  283. # [08:59] <dbpokorny> sharing code pages is very apt to this discussion
  284. # [09:00] <SamB> yes, but *you* already know about it so *I* don't need to bore you with the details that you already know
  285. # [09:01] <dbpokorny> Basically, I want to run libhfs.c in my browser
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  287. # [09:04] <dbpokorny> The whole, "it hasn't been invented yet, it will never be invented" attitude is just...so early 90s
  288. # [09:05] <dbpokorny> "(People have been trying unsuccessfully to do that since day one of MMX, so it's irrelevant until the day it actually happens.)"
  289. # [09:05] <SamB> what, only since then?
  290. # [09:06] <SamB> and I thought MMX was late 90s ;-P
  291. # [09:06] <dbpokorny> lol you're right
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  293. # [09:19] <dbpokorny> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2014-May/296960.html
  294. # [09:20] <dbpokorny> "platform-independent code with performance competitive with native SIMD assembly is a thing of myth"
  295. # [09:22] <SamB> it does sound kind of grail-ish
  296. # [09:23] <dbpokorny> yeah, but if you just turn over the coin, you see that all you have to do is define the algorithm namespace, check which algorithms/libraries you want, and hand the thing over to a compiler from 2050
  297. # [09:23] <dbpokorny> everyone implements the same algorithms on new SIMD hardware
  298. # [09:24] <dbpokorny> unless, you know, you're IBM Almaden
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  300. # [09:24] <SamB> the compiler from 2050 still has good sheduling support for the hardware of 2014 ?
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  302. # [09:28] <dbpokorny> I don't follow. The image compression issue is latency-oriented
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  307. # [09:44] <dbpokorny> but the greater issue is that there are only so many ways to design different scheduling schemes for hardware. With the web, it will be easier to share them, and then design compilers for historical SIMD hardware the same way we ask students to come up with proofs that every nonempty perfect complete metric space is uncountable
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  398. # [14:33] <gsnedders> jgraham: I would like opinions from you on the Jython PR for html5lib.
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  457. # [17:23] <slightlyoff> Ish. In a cab. Whaddup?
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  584. # [21:57] <Ms2ger> Domenic, you realize that breach.cc is basically Firefox, right?
  585. # [21:57] <Domenic> Ms2ger: Firefox has a Node.js core?
  586. # [21:58] <Domenic> The UI being in HTML/JS is not the interesting part
  587. # [21:58] <Ms2ger> The core is Chromium, afaict
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  590. # [22:00] <Domenic> see "layer 3" and http://breach.cc/hack/
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  592. # [22:02] <SamB> what, firefox UI is in HTML now?
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  595. # [22:03] <Ms2ger> XUL and bits of HTML
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  600. # [22:15] <zewt> it's sort of neat how FF's view for directly viewing an image is just a built-in html page, I was able to attach a greasemonkey script to it to add better zooming support
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  606. # [22:21] <gsnedders> zewt: doesn't everyone do that nowadays?
  607. # [22:22] <SamB> gsnedders: hasn't mozilla been doing that since before most of the other engines were even born?
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  640. # [23:29] <Hixie> jorendorff: yt?
  641. # [23:30] <Hixie> jorendorff: any idea why the sticky headers on http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html no longer appear on chrome?
  642. # [23:31] <Hixie> maybe chrome dropped position:sticky?
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  644. # [23:32] <Ms2ger> I think that may be correct
  645. # [23:33] <jorendorff> Hixie: Does it work for you here? http://html5-demos.appspot.com/static/css/sticky.html
  646. # [23:33] <Ms2ger> <insert wit about mobile performance>
  647. # [23:33] <Hixie> jorendorff: it does not
  648. # [23:33] <Hixie> jorendorff: you didn't use to use js or anything i take it
  649. # [23:34] <jorendorff> Hixie: no, just position:sticky
  650. # [23:34] <jorendorff> it says here "Support: Chromium 23.0.1247.0 with the --enable-experimental-webkit-features flag enabled via about:flags."
  651. # [23:35] <Hixie> ah maybe that's it
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  660. # Session Close: Fri Jul 11 00:00:00 2014

The end :)