/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-07-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jul 11 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  17. # [00:29] <zewt> gsnedders: chrome's can't be affected by user scripts, as far as i could tell
  18. # [00:29] <zewt> though chrome basically removed support for user scripts (which forced me back to firefox)
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  20. # [00:33] <jamesr__> Hixie, jorendorff: the experimental sticky support in chrome was ripped out recently
  21. # [00:33] <Hixie> ah
  22. # [00:33] <Hixie> k
  23. # [00:33] <jamesr__> it'll be added back when somebody (1) writes down what it is supposed to do and then (2) writes code that does that
  24. # [00:33] <jamesr__> (1)'s never really happened so it's pretty hard to have good code around
  25. # [00:33] * Hixie nods
  26. # [00:34] <jamesr__> i think a mozilla intern was starting on it but didn't make it all the way. it's a worthwhile thing in a very long list of worthwhile things to pursue
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  654. # [09:48] <Ms2ger> "Revive E4X as EXQO with extended SAX as Methods!!!!!"
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  656. # [09:56] * jgraham worries for Ms2ger's sanity
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  659. # [09:57] <Ms2ger> You and me both
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  684. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> SAX is so good it doesn'T need to be extended
  685. # [12:00] * jgraham wonders if MikeSmith is being held hostage by XML terrorists
  686. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> tee hhee
  687. # [12:00] <MikeSmith> stockholm syndrome
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  689. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> http://instagram.com/p/JzmkwQCr7y/
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  692. # [12:05] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, not sure that's a think one'd like to be called
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  694. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> yeah that's what makes it even better
  695. # [12:13] <Ms2ger> A think?
  696. # [12:13] * Ms2ger blames XML
  697. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> if it'd been HTML it would have error-recovered from that for you automatically
  698. # [12:20] <jgraham> I really can't work out if "the ascii of the future" is supposed to be a compliment or not
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  705. # [12:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I've redeployed validator.nu, despite it being a bad idea right before heading out of office for a couple of weeks
  706. # [12:44] <hsivonen> TabAtkins: thanks for Python map() advice
  707. # [12:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I landed a quick map/lambda hack to paper over the shell script generation bug without correctly fixing all possible future cases
  708. # [12:44] <hsivonen> (bad, I know)
  709. # [12:45] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: if in the future we want a command line switch that both contains a space and requires shell variable expansions, things will break again
  710. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks much man
  711. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'll try not to add any new switches to the script at all. We got plenty already
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  714. # [12:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the ones I've added are of marginal benefit anyway. They're mostly just there to allow some things for the W3C service to be slightly different. e.g., the space thing was caused by me adding a switch to allow the UA string to contain a URL for page that explains what the validator is
  715. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: some sites admins, otherwise not knowing what the validator is, send us complaints about it violating robots.txt and things, or even blocking it
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  717. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: anyway, thanks again -- I appreciate it
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  791. # [16:12] <smaug____> what does "Let form document be the form's Document." mean ?
  792. # [16:12] <smaug____> is that ownerDocument?
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  802. # [16:22] <smaug____> Hixie: am I interpreting the spec correctly, and that means ownerDocument ?
  803. # [16:22] <smaug____> "The Document of a Node (such as an element) is the Document that the Node's ownerDocument IDL attribute returns."
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  809. # [16:29] <Ms2ger> Yep
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  811. # [16:34] <smaug____> and browsers behave differently there
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  836. # [17:48] <Hixie> smaug____: yeah
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  839. # [17:51] <smaug____> Hixie: what about "the Document object with which subject in question is associated."
  840. # [17:51] <smaug____> in hyperlink handling
  841. # [17:51] <smaug____> that Document is also ownerDocument?
  842. # [17:51] <Hixie> associated usually means something else
  843. # [17:51] <Hixie> let me see
  844. # [17:52] <Hixie> looks like in this case it's just ownerDocument, yeah
  845. # [17:52] <Hixie> that could probably be phrased more obviously
  846. # [17:52] <Hixie> actually all of this stuff probably could be better phrased now
  847. # [17:53] <Hixie> at the time it was written, ownerDocument wasn't formally specced
  848. # [17:53] <Hixie> but now we have anne's dom spec, it might be easier to reference it
  849. # [17:53] <Hixie> ah, yeah, the dom spec now defines "the node document"
  850. # [17:53] <smaug____> looks like browsers handle this kind of cases in different ways
  851. # [17:54] <smaug____> blink doesn't care whether element is in doc, but gecko and trident do
  852. # [17:54] <Hixie> i should just change all of this stuff to just refer directly to "node document" instead of the round-about way i had to use before
  853. # [17:54] <Hixie> the spec doesn't care, does it? whether the element is in a doc or not?
  854. # [17:55] <Hixie> for following hyperlinks, i mean
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  856. # [17:55] <smaug____> what I'm starting to do is to go through this stuff and think how it should work in shadow dom
  857. # [17:55] <smaug____> Hixie: right. and I think that is probably wrong
  858. # [17:55] <Hixie> why?
  859. # [17:55] <Hixie> security, compat?
  860. # [17:55] <Hixie> something else?
  861. # [17:55] <smaug____> something else
  862. # [17:56] <smaug____> saner behavior
  863. # [17:56] <smaug____> but probably doesn't matter much
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  865. # [17:57] <bkardell__> Hixie: You around?
  866. # [17:57] * Ms2ger grumbles
  867. # [17:58] <Hixie> smaug____: i think for some things (form submission in particular, also audio playback, img loading) we have a compat need to handle it while it's not actually in a doc, so for consistency we probably shouldn't artificially check it elsewhere
  868. # [17:58] <Hixie> bkardell__: 'sup
  869. # [17:58] <smaug____> form submission doesn't work in Gecko and Trident when not in doc
  870. # [17:58] <Hixie> smaug____: (i filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26310 btw)
  871. # [17:58] <smaug____> so no compat
  872. # [17:58] <bkardell__> Hixie: Trying to figure out which list to even send this question to man...
  873. # [17:58] <bkardell__> Hixie: Have a look at this https://gist.githubusercontent.com/bkardell/7da8ba03e690f2c24503/raw/ccbd20fc406f3158b0c616770e4bed1e956ce019/mutationobserverquestion.html
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  875. # [17:59] <Hixie> smaug____: really? i thought we just found there was a compat need for something like that, when doing the rAc stuff.
  876. # [17:59] <bkardell__> Hixie: Whoops, running with mime type https://rawgit.com/bkardell/7da8ba03e690f2c24503/raw/ccbd20fc406f3158b0c616770e4bed1e956ce019/mutationobserverquestion.html
  877. # [18:00] <smaug____> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/html/content/src/HTMLFormElement.cpp#1595
  878. # [18:00] <bkardell__> Hixie: The question is - a) shouldn't that output the same in all browsers b) what is under-specified or buggy in existing if do
  879. # [18:00] <bkardell__> s/do/so
  880. # [18:00] <Hixie> smaug____: huh
  881. # [18:00] <Hixie> smaug____: well anyway, the other cases stand
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  883. # [18:01] <smaug____> I could buy that consistency argument
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  885. # [18:01] <Hixie> bkardell__: if it's a mutation observer question, probably whatwg@whatwg.org, cc anne
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  887. # [18:02] <bkardell__> Hixie: yeah, anne was suggesting maybe it was about pasing... maybe still best to send to the list
  888. # [18:02] <bkardell__> Hixie: just trying to shortcut list confusion
  889. # [18:03] <Hixie> bkardell__: pasing?
  890. # [18:03] <bkardell__> s/pasing/parsing :)
  891. # [18:03] <smaug____> bkardell__: note, Gecko's behavior changed recently
  892. # [18:03] <Hixie> bkardell__: oh
  893. # [18:03] <Hixie> bkardell__: /me looks closer
  894. # [18:03] <smaug____> bkardell__: though, I assume you're testing with latest versions
  895. # [18:03] <smaug____> not release versions
  896. # [18:04] <Hixie> bkardell__: oh if you're getting mutation observers during parsing, you can't guarantee that you'll get the same thing even in the same browser
  897. # [18:04] <bkardell__> smaug___: Checking in release versions
  898. # [18:04] <Hixie> bkardell__: it depends on TCP packet boundaries, amongst other things
  899. # [18:04] <smaug____> bkardell__: not useful
  900. # [18:04] <bkardell__> Hixie: why not? The way the test is constructed, there shouldn't be major variation, right?
  901. # [18:05] <smaug____> but yeah, packet boundaries may affect to characterData records
  902. # [18:06] <Hixie> bkardell__: e.g. at the simplest level, if one load gets an event loop spin (e.g. because the data was split into two packets and it only got the first packet) half way through the </h1> being parsed, and a second load does it all as one task, then the first will fire the mutation observers as two microtasks (at least), and the second will fire them as one.
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  904. # [18:06] <Ms2ger> TIL: treatment of img@hspace is not interoperable
  905. # [18:06] <bkardell__> Hixie: Ok, I'll buy that for character data, but for element nodes they should be the same, yes?
  906. # [18:07] <bkardell__> smaug___: what do you see for type 1 nodes in latest FF?
  907. # [18:07] <Hixie> bkardell__: well at the very minimum they'll be fired with different microtask timings
  908. # [18:08] <bkardell__> Hixie__: the test doesn't really involve timings though, right? I mean, ignore text nodes in the output...
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  910. # [18:09] <smaug____> bkardell__: FF has one characterData which chromium apparently doesn't have
  911. # [18:09] <Hixie> bkardell__: i don't really understand the test output
  912. # [18:09] <smaug____> (I don't understand those numbers under childList, but they are the same in FF and Chr)
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  914. # [18:10] <bkardell__> childlist contains a count of nodeType for each addedNode
  915. # [18:10] <Hixie> bkardell__: the parser can result in observably different results because of timings, but the end result DOM should be the same. If the question is about timings, then the parser might be relevant. If the question is about the end-result, then that's probably a DOM question, not a parser question.
  916. # [18:11] <bkardell__> the source is pretty simple, fits on a visible screen
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  919. # [18:12] <zcorpan> hsivonen: MikeSmith: validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fscottjehl.github.io%2Fpicturefill%2F&showsource=yes gives an internal error
  920. # [18:12] <bkardell__> smaug___: Let me check nightly
  921. # [18:12] <Hixie> bkardell__: you're assuming one understands the mutation observer API enough to understand the test :-)
  922. # [18:12] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah checking on it now
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  925. # [18:16] <bkardell__> smaug___: excellent, right! nightly is matching!
  926. # [18:16] * bkardell__ does a happy dance
  927. # [18:17] <gsnedders> I'm being such a stereotypical PL guy. "Let's just use SML!"
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  930. # [18:19] <bkardell__> smaug___: any thoughts on why safari works fine for me with that test only if devtools are open? ever heard of that?
  931. # [18:20] <Hixie> well bummer
  932. # [18:20] <smaug____> no idea. I haven't used Safari for ages
  933. # [18:20] <Hixie> i added some checks to catch cases where the dev version of the spec referenced terms not defined in the dev version of the spec
  934. # [18:21] <Hixie> i fixed one, then made it tell me the total count, not just one at a time, and it found 3999 more occurrences.
  935. # [18:21] <bkardell__> hober: You here?
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  944. # [18:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: found the cause but not going to get it fixed until another hour or so at least. Hope hsivonen will be able to re-redeploy before he needs to head away
  945. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> Hm
  946. # [18:34] <Ms2ger> If I do margin-top: 50%, what is that based off? Width?
  947. # [18:34] <zcorpan> yes
  948. # [18:35] <Ms2ger> Ta
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  950. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> Do I need a link if my reftest files are called foo.html/foo-ref.html in wpt?
  951. # [18:36] <jgraham> Ms2ger: In theory, no
  952. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> In practice?
  953. # [18:37] <jgraham> But if the ref is reusable it's encouraged to use <link> to a standard file rather than -ref
  954. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> Not really
  955. # [18:37] <bkardell__> smaug___: When is that stuff supposed to land in release?
  956. # [18:37] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Can you make it reusable?
  957. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> Hmm, maybe I could reuse it
  958. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> Alright
  959. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> Or not really, actually
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  1043. # [19:54] <MikeSmit1> hsivonen: I just pushed a fix to the build repo. Without it, the <picture> checker will fail with a non-document "Oops" internal error. If you have time to re-reploy before you have to head away, great. If not, it can wait til you're back.
  1044. # [19:55] <MikeSmit1> hsivonen: sorry for not having been more careful
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  1047. # [19:58] <MikeSmit1> zcorpan: thanks for the heads-up. I fixed the cause and http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fw3c-test.org%2Fconformance-checkers%2Fhtml%2Felements%2Fpicture%2Fpicture-isvalid.html is built and running from the source trunk
  1048. # [19:59] <MikeSmit1> zcorpan: But for now the <picture> support is currently broken at both v.nu & h5.v.nu and the W3C validator in the same way
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  1052. # [20:00] <MikeSmit1> zcorpan: and I'm going to leave it that way at the W3C validator until hsivonen is able to re-deploy too. Which may not be until 2 weeks from now
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  1054. # [20:01] <MikeSmit1> and now I need to board yet another plane without wifi
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  1056. # [20:02] <MikeSmit1> back around in 15 or so hours
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  1111. # [21:28] <zcorpan> MikeSmit1: k
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  1116. # [21:34] <smaug____> dglazkov_: what does "Window object named properties [HTML] must access the nodes in the document tree." mean in shadow dom spec
  1117. # [21:35] <smaug____> doesn't seem to belong to that spec at all
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  1159. # [22:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: wow, you appeared around html5lib, I am amaze ;P
  1160. # [22:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: Well it wasn't an insanly complex PR
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  1177. # [23:48] <smaug____> dglazkov_: is iframe supposed to work in shadow dom ?
  1178. # [23:49] <gsnedders> jgraham: I dunno, it's not the most elegent of code, but that's Py2 as it's defined, le sigh
  1179. # [23:52] <smaug____> per spec no
  1180. # [23:52] <smaug____> interestingly chrome actually loads the iframe content but doesn't render it
  1181. # [23:52] <smaug____> h, hmm
  1182. # [23:53] <smaug____> ah, yes, it does render it
  1183. # [23:53] <smaug____> but that is a bug
  1184. # [23:54] <smaug____> Hixie: "the furthest ancestor element node" doesn't mean anything cross shadom-DOM boundaries, right?
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  1187. # Session Close: Sat Jul 12 00:00:01 2014

The end :)