/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-07-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jul 12 00:00:01 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Do you mean "how does iframe work when it has a shadow root"?
  4. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> smaug____: And I believe any algorithm that look at the ancestor list should cross shadow boundaries and walk up the composed tree automatically.
  5. # [00:02] <smaug____> why?
  6. # [00:02] <smaug____> I mean per what spec?
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  8. # [00:03] <smaug____> (I could agree iframe should load, but so far I haven't found any spec which says that)
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  15. # [00:09] <Hixie> smaug____: no idea
  16. # [00:09] <Hixie> smaug____: i haven't updated any of my specs to handle shadow trees yet
  17. # [00:09] <smaug____> right, so what is implemented in blink is somewhat random
  18. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Unsure which of my comments your question is in response to.
  19. # [00:10] <smaug____> TabAtkins: to your comment "And I believe any algorithm that look at the ancestor list should cross shadow boundaries and walk up the composed tree automatically."
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  21. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk. That's my personal belief, not one based on a spec ref. ^_^ But if the Shadow DOM spec doesn't define that, it should; for example, form elements inside of shadow DOM should be submitted when placed in an external <form>.
  22. # [00:11] <smaug____> hmm, how should session history work in case there are iframes in shadow dom (assuming those actually load something)
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  24. # [00:12] <smaug____> TabAtkins: whaat? form elements should be submitted in that case?
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  26. # [00:13] <smaug____> that is surprising
  27. # [00:14] <smaug____> if one just used radio buttons in shadow dom for some UI stuff, their value might get submitted accidentally
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  29. # [00:14] <Hixie> yeah i don't think it's as simple as just everything should work like if it was one tree
  30. # [00:14] <smaug____> it should definitely be opt-in behavior to let data to leak out from the shadow dom in such case
  31. # [00:14] <Hixie> i think it probably needs to depend on the binding
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  34. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Hm, valid point.
  35. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> Domenic: I've got a super-class that's not meant to be used; it's just a holder for default implementations of methods, as it's designed to be extended. Should I have its constructor throw, or produce a valid-but-useless object?
  36. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> Domenic: (Specifically, I'm defining a set of XXXColor classes for CSS, and have a CSSColor superclass over them. If the constructor should really work, it'll just return an object that represents transparent black, with no way to manipulate it.)
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  40. # [00:29] <TabAtkins> Also, I'm using WebIDL to define the shape of these interfaces, but defining most of the methods by just saying "here's the JS implementation", which is interesting.
  41. # [00:31] <Hixie> i'd just not define a constructor
  42. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> Gotta have something there.
  43. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> I forget what happens if you don't define a constructor.
  44. # [00:32] <Hixie> in webidl, if you don't set a [Constructor], you just don't get one
  45. # [00:32] <Domenic> It defines a throwing constructor
  46. # [00:33] <Domenic> TabAtkins: if you can make the throwing constructor work in a JS polyfill without mega-hacks, then that might be best... but I think that breaks inheritance
  47. # [00:34] <Domenic> (by mega-hacks, I mean a constructor that doesn't throw when you pass it an unguessable secret, which all the subclasses know)
  48. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Why is that necessary?
  49. # [00:34] <Domenic> TabAtkins: why is what necessary?
  50. # [00:34] <TabAtkins> Allowing the subclasses to construct an instance of the superclass?
  51. # [00:35] <Domenic> TabAtkins: if the superclass has any internal state at all, then you need to call super() in the subclass constructor to initialize it
  52. # [00:35] <Hixie> not necessarily
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  54. # [00:35] <Hixie> you could call an internal init() method, e.g.
  55. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> It doesn't have any. The interface is just some methods, and some static stuff hanging off of it.
  56. # [00:35] <Domenic> TabAtkins: nice, then I think throwing constructor is pretty sound
  57. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Okay, cool.
  58. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> (It has a semi-constructor that takes a string and returns one of its subclasses, but that's exposed as a static method on the interface instead.)
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  60. # [00:36] <Hixie> (i mean, Object has some internal state, and yet it's still fine for subclasses to throw even if they then have further subclasses that don't throw)
  61. # [00:36] <Domenic> TabAtkins: as long as it can be JS polyfilled I am happy, even if it's a bit unusual.
  62. # [00:37] <Domenic> Hixie: Object has no internal state
  63. # [00:37] <Hixie> Object has quite a lot of internal state :-)
  64. # [00:37] <Domenic> Hixie: but I think you are right that an internal init() method would probably work
  65. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> Usually when I use a useless superclass, I just give its constructor an empty body and don't worry about it, becasue I know I'm not going to try and construct it. ^_^
  66. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> But I gotta handle authors doing weird stuff.
  67. # [00:37] <Domenic> It would be nice if we had mixins in some first-class way
  68. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> So I was just wondering which style is more idiomatic - throwing, or dumb object.
  69. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Yes. Yes it would be.
  70. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> That's all I'm using the stupid thing for, after all.
  71. # [00:38] <Domenic> WebIDL implements/ES7 Object.mixin would not allow monkeypatching the mixin and getting those changes shared by all mix-targets
  72. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  73. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> And allowing monkeypatching is precisely why I'm structuring these things the way I am.
  74. # [00:40] <Domenic> (the problem i usually have with throwing constructors is that instances of them somehow exist. but that is not what is going on here.)
  75. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Right.
  76. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Unless there's some voodoo I'm not thinking of, there's no way to actually get a CSSColor object.
  77. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Reflection wouldn't allow that, would it?
  78. # [00:41] <Domenic> Nah, I can't see how
  79. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> Oh wait, damnit, this isn't the name I wanted. I was going to go with RGBACompatibleColor.
  80. # [00:42] <Domenic> They would have to be exposed through APIs in your specs
  81. # [00:42] <Domenic> Wait... OK this is just a thought experiment, but...
  82. # [00:43] <Domenic> You could define RGBACCPrototype = { ...methods... }
  83. # [00:43] <Domenic> then inherit from that object directly
  84. # [00:43] <Domenic> Instead of defining function RGBACC () { throw new TypeError; }; RGBACC.prototype = { ... methods ... }
  85. # [00:43] <Domenic> Ah, you lose static methods though
  86. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> I need an RGBACC itself, though, to hang some static methods off of.
  87. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  88. # [00:44] <Domenic> And... that pattern (proto-only) is getting very far from idiomatic.
  89. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Might be interesting to make this pattern more explicit in IDL with "abstract interface ...", which fails syntax checking if there are any non-static attributes, or any constructors, and which is prohibited to be constructed by specs.
  90. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> (You'd still be able to use it in IDL itself, to denote an attribute/method that takes/returns any subclass of the interface.)
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  92. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> (Or maybe prohibit it from being used directly, and add another syntax construct like "subclass<AbstractFoo>" that must be used by attributes/methods.)
  93. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> (Where subclass<XXX> is only valid when XXX is an abstract interface.)
  94. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Unsure if worthwhile, but capturing relatively complex idioms that we want to use consistently is what WebIDL is for.
  95. # [00:48] <Hixie> why would non-static attributes be not ok in an abstract interface?
  96. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Because that implies there's state on an instance, but there are no instances, by definition.
  97. # [00:48] <Hixie> i mean, fundamentally, "interface" really means "abstract class". WebIDL doesn't have a "class" concept.
  98. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> And putting data attributes on a prototype is bad practice.
  99. # [00:48] <Hixie> Node has plenty of attributes
  100. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> WebIDL's "interface" is JS's "class".
  101. # [00:48] <Hixie> i don't think that's bad practice
  102. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> I know. It's bad practice. ^_^
  103. # [00:49] <zewt> i find distinguishing "interface" from "class with virtual methods" to be a meaningless java-ism
  104. # [00:49] <Hixie> nah, Node isn't bad practice
  105. # [00:49] <Hixie> at least, not that part of it
  106. # [00:49] <Hixie> it's a quite sensible API
  107. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> If a data property is on a prototype, setting the property actually sets it on the prototype, changing it for *every instance*. That's almost never what you want.
  108. # [00:49] <Hixie> an attribute is fundamentally no different than a method
  109. # [00:49] <zewt> i think the underlying reason java has it is to avoid issues like diamond inheritance, but there are better solutions to that
  110. # [00:49] <TabAtkins> And if it is, you can explicitly say so with a getter/setter pair.
  111. # [00:50] <Hixie> there's no difference between getter/setter pairs and data attributes in webidl
  112. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The "fundamental" difference is that you don't set methods regularly.
  113. # [00:50] <Hixie> setFoo()/getFoo() is equivalent to "attribute foo"
  114. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Technically, sure, but that's just because the getter/setter pair handle typechecking for you.
  115. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> Hm, I guess they always set the value on the instance, though. (Or set hidden state on the instance, which is the same thing here.)
  116. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> So maybe it's not actually terrible.
  117. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> But still, making the constructor automatically throw with a standard message, and preventing accidentally using the interface directly in other things (thus making it less likely the spec author absentmindedly constructs an instance in prose) might be helpful.
  118. # [00:55] <Hixie> [NoInterfaceObject] is the usual way to prevent that kind of mistake
  119. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> That prevents you from hanging static things off the interface.
  120. # [00:55] <TabAtkins> And doesn't prevent the mistake at all - prose can still construct a [NoInterfaceObject] object.
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  122. # [00:56] <TabAtkins> The constructor just isn't present on the global.
  123. # [00:56] <Hixie> oh, from prose
  124. # [00:56] <Hixie> yeah, dunno what's a good way to prevent that kind of mistake
  125. # [00:57] <Hixie> whatever you put in the spec, other spec writers have a tendency to think their case is special :-)
  126. # [00:57] <Hixie> (i include myself in this!)
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  129. # [00:58] <Domenic> TabAtkins: seems like a reasonable thing, although I'd like a couple more use cases first.
  130. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Yeah, it's a use-case-count of 1 right now, which is too small to generalize from safely.
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  132. # [00:59] <TabAtkins> Gotta hit 3 before it's reasonable. ^_^
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  136. # [01:05] <zewt> putting empty <img> blocks on top of images to break copy image location is the modern-day equivalent of alert("right click is not supported")
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  140. # [01:18] <Domenic> oooh, that's evil, i've never seen it before
  141. # [01:20] <zewt> others put images in css background-images for the same reason
  142. # [01:20] <zewt> (there are valid reasons to do that, but often it's just to make it harder to get the image url)
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  204. # [04:44] <Krinkle> Hm.. where is the spec for document.cookie / HTMLDocument#cookie ?
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  206. # [04:44] <Krinkle> MDN links to an old version in the HTML 2 spec on w3.org but can't find much else
  207. # [04:44] <Krinkle> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-HTML/html.html#ID-8747038
  208. # [04:44] <Krinkle> seems neither html/c nor dom.spec contains any reference to it
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  210. # [04:46] <Krinkle> github search brought up https://github.com/whatwg/html-differences/blob/1f8778b1e26d98ae1de62ca7e99201c1d90a6a44/Overview.src.html#L3129
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  365. # [07:36] <Hixie> Krinkle|detached: http://www.whatwg.org/html#dom-document-cookie
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  382. # [07:47] <Domenic> Someone needs to scrub MDN hard…
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  523. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> /win 17
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  530. # [12:34] <Krinkle> Hixie: thanks
  531. # [12:44] <Ms2ger> Domenic, you could be the MDN scrubber
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  833. # [20:53] <SamB> hmm, http://amjith.blogspot.com/2007/07/visual-diff-tools-in-linux.html does not contain any actual content
  834. # [20:53] <SamB> just a bunch of divs and some CSS (I think there was some actual CSS in there somewhere) and some scripts ...
  835. # [20:54] <SamB> and even when I turn on JS, I still don't get to the entry in question
  836. # [20:54] * SamB wonders if they did the same thing to his blog; if so, he thinks it's time to move it elsewhere ...
  837. # [20:54] <caitp> using what, netsurf?
  838. # [20:55] <SamB> caitp: I had noscript on to start with
  839. # [20:55] <SamB> also I *hate* endless scrolling
  840. # [20:55] <caitp> but after enabling scripts you still can't see content? huh
  841. # [20:55] <SamB> there's content, but I did not land at the content I would expect for that URL
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  843. # [20:57] <SamB> but I really hate gratuitously web-1.0-incompatible sites as well as (mandatory) endless scrolling
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  845. # [20:59] <SamB> thankfully, the wayback machine is working :-)
  846. # [21:00] <SamB> (and broken links, I hate broken links too)
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  848. # [21:03] * SamB edits the link on unix.SE to point at a web.archive.org snapshot ...
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  850. # [21:05] <caitp> you should put the "bad" one in rubytext or something
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  859. # [21:42] <IZh> Hi! What is the subdfn attribute of <code>. There are lots of in in the spec now. A validator complains.
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  861. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> The HTML spec?
  862. # [21:49] <Ms2ger> Probably a bug in Hixie's new pipeline
  863. # [21:50] <IZh> Ms2ger: Yes.
  864. # [21:50] <IZh> And what is the w-nodev attribute of the spans and links?
  865. # [21:51] <Ms2ger> Same
  866. # [21:51] <IZh> There are about hundred of them.
  867. # [21:51] <caitp> one hundred happy accidents is better than zero happy accidents
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  918. # Session Close: Sun Jul 13 00:00:00 2014

The end :)