/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-07-15 / end

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# Session Start: Tue Jul 15 00:00:01 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <caitp> but certainly on the app store they take abuse a bit more seriously
# [00:01] <marcosc> Wait, you are saying that we shouldn't standardize any new features because the web doesn't have an "app store"?
# [00:01] <caitp> no
# [00:01] <caitp> that's you fitting those words into my mouth =)
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# [00:02] <caitp> the trouble is, by asking users to opt-in, you're A) assuming they have a clue what they're opting into or how it affects them, and B) essentially giving a free-pass for people to take advantage of less-skilled computer users
# [00:02] <marcosc> apologies, can we focus on the use cases and try to find an solution to the abuse cases?
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# [00:02] <Hixie> caitp: you're not explaining your position very well, fwiw
# [00:02] <caitp> while at the same time imposing inconvenience on more experienced users
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# [00:04] <marcosc> if the application provides a wake lock and it's really useful (e.g., driving, using Google Cardboard, following a recipe) I don't see how that is a huge inconvenience for a significant gain. Once the user is done using the application, they just press the power button or open a different app.
# [00:04] <Hixie> marcosc: on android i would expose it as a notification that said "This Web page would like to keep your phone from turning off. This can increase battery usage. (( Allow maps.google.com to control when the phone turns off ))" and if you dismiss it, the app is added to the blacklist so the notification doesn't come back.
# [00:05] <Hixie> oh man, google cardboard is another great use case
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# [00:06] <Domenic> I want a Google cardboard, but am ironically too lazy to make one...
# [00:06] <marcosc> heh
# [00:06] <Hixie> Domenic: you can find prebuilt kits online
# [00:06] <Hixie> Domenic: http://www.dodocase.com/products/google-cardboard-vr-goggle-toolkit http://www.unofficialcardboard.com/
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# [00:08] <caitp> anyways I'm still not seeing where this draft is claiming to make up for a users inexperience marcosc :( do you have a link to the section/
# [00:08] <caitp> ?
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# [00:08] <Domenic> Hixie: awesome!
# [00:08] <marcosc> No, it's implied throughout the whole document because there are many successful apps using wake locks.
# [00:08] <marcosc> caitp: ^^
# [00:08] <Domenic> The "Handcrafted in San Francisco" banner is a nice touch.
# [00:08] <caitp> that... isn't the issue though
# [00:09] <caitp> there is any number of things that you could gain a marginal benefit from wakelocks for
# [00:09] * Hixie must admit to having no idea what issue caitp is currently having
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# [00:09] <caitp> the issue is how do you prevent abuse
# [00:09] <caitp> because opt-in isn't enough
# [00:09] <caitp> it just isn't
# [00:09] <Hixie> it's isn't because...?
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# [00:10] <caitp> because people don't understand what they're opting into/out of, don't understand all of the implications, don't know how to undo their choices
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# [00:10] <Domenic> I guess people should not use phones then
# [00:10] <caitp> and more importantly, people don't want to have to opt in
# [00:10] <Domenic> Cuz the wakelock monster will get them
# [00:10] <Domenic> and lock their phones awake
# [00:10] <Hixie> we have much bigger issues that are currently opt-in without the world ending...
# [00:10] <Hixie> for example, the geolocation api
# [00:11] <caitp> well, it would take a lot for the world to end
# [00:12] <Hixie> if opt-in is sufficient for the geolocation api, i'm very comfortable saying that it's sufficient for a wake lock
# [00:12] <Hixie> and the industry seems to have concluded that it's sufficient for the geolocation api
# [00:12] <caitp> you opted into gUM on website X on one day, on a different day you've opted into wakelock
# [00:13] <caitp> now you've fallen asleep, wakelock and gUM are working simultaneously and you're being surveiled
# [00:13] <caitp> that's creepy as hell!
# [00:13] <Hixie> oh no!
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# [00:13] <Hixie> call the nsa!
# [00:13] <caitp> but worse, it's also killing your ipad battery cycles and causing you to pay another 200$ for a replacement battery sooner!
# [00:13] <Hixie> oh wait, they can already do this without any help from us
# [00:14] <Hixie> since they can run software on the baseband
# [00:14] <caitp> yes they can
# [00:14] <Hixie> phew
# [00:14] <Hixie> disaster averted
# [00:14] <caitp> it's not averted, it's just ignored :p
# [00:14] <caitp> just because you already have a problem doesn't mean that making it easier for people to abuse it is any better
# [00:15] <Hixie> if you don't trust the site to not surveil you, then don't opt-in to gUM
# [00:15] <Hixie> that's what the opt-in is _for_
# [00:15] <caitp> maybe you don't remember that you opted in
# [00:16] <caitp> maybe you had a good reason to opt-in at one point, but no longer do
# [00:16] <caitp> maybe you don't know that you don't have a good reason to suspect people on the internet because you're a 90 year old grandmother
# [00:16] <caitp> I mean really, who can say
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# [00:17] <caitp> you could come up with lots of ways to abuse it, and you'd get like at least 3 out of every 12 people you tried it on
# [00:17] <caitp> probably more
# [00:17] <Hixie> i'm totally on board with the suggestion that we should make it clearer to users that a site has permissions to use your camera or whatever
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# [00:17] <Hixie> but that is not specific to the web, and not specific to wake locks.
# [00:18] <caitp> maybe an app-store like system for the web would actually be a really good idea
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# [00:56] <TabAtkins> caitp: Maybe rethink that, given the travesty of App Store permissions (particularly on Android, but only because I'm not familiar enough with iTunes to know how bad it is).
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# [00:57] <caitp> no, I think it would be extraordinary if we could vette specific applications and grant them permissions because we know that they aren't acting abusinely. I'm not saying it would be even close to a simple thing to implement, and it would cost piles of money and will likely never happen
# [00:57] <caitp> but that's the problem isn't it
# [00:58] <caitp> we let people do whatever they want and keep giving them more tools to do it with and the only protection we offer is completely half-assed
# [00:59] <caitp> not just specific applications but specific hashes computed from the source code of an application
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# [01:00] <TabAtkins> Oh, so you're saying "A system vaguely similar to an App Store, but actually quite different from every existing App Store in important ways".
# [01:00] <caitp> well, somewhat similar to the apple store
# [01:01] <Hixie> hm... making <dfn>s for terms that are defined in other specs actually turn into links that go to those other specs makes my dfn.js ui break...
# [01:02] <Hixie> because you end up following the link rather than seeing the list os term usages...
# [01:02] <Hixie> of
# [01:02] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Dont' do that, then. Your local definitions will clash with the other spec's definitions, and will make Bikeshed unhappy. ;_;
# [01:03] <Hixie> don't worry, they're easily detectable. Just ignore any <dfn> containing an <a> (or any <dfn> with a data-x-href, if you use my source file as input)
# [01:03] <TabAtkins> (When you do want a local definition of a concept that is more fully defined elsewhere, Bikeshed has a concept of "unexported" definitions, which are local-only and don't get picked up by Shepherd's database.)
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# [01:04] <gsnedders> Hixie: what was the 3D printing place you were recommending?
# [01:04] <TabAtkins> Hixie: No can do, all <dfn>s have an <a> in Bikeshedding specs (for the permalink).
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# [01:05] <TabAtkins> Hixie: You could put a data-noexport attribute on the definitions you don't want to show up globally, if you wanna be Bikeshed-friendly.
# [01:05] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i'm sure we'll figure out some solution
# [01:05] <Hixie> TabAtkins: i'm first trying to get something good for HTML before I worry about other specs :-)
# [01:05] <TabAtkins> Sure, but I wanna make sure you don't do a lot of work, and then would have to do *more* work afterwards to make it play well with others. ^_^
# [01:06] <TabAtkins> So just in case it's something you'd have to do to your source file, knowing about it earlier rather than later is better.
# [01:06] <TabAtkins> For example, typing your dfns would be *wonderful*.
# [01:07] <TabAtkins> (Particularly your WebIDL ones.)
# [01:07] <Hixie> my medium-term plan with webidl is to not have to type any, but just to have my pipeline parse the webidl directly.
# [01:08] <Hixie> anyway. the HTML spec has a section on dependencies, where all the terms the spec uses from other specs are defined
# [01:09] <Hixie> so what i'm doing is just using this as a way to also declare internally what all the terms should actually point to
# [01:09] <TabAtkins> That also works, yes. That's what Bikeshed does.
# [01:09] <TabAtkins> (re: parsing webidl automatically)
# [01:10] <TabAtkins> So if you just add a data-noexport attribute to all of those definitions (because they're not "real" definitions, just local ones you're using for spec-specific purposes), that would be great.
# [01:10] <TabAtkins> Then I won't have to constantly disambiguate HTML definitions from everything else. ^_^
# [01:11] <Hixie> file a bug to remind me (whatwg.org/newbug, whiteboard "tools")
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# [01:12] <TabAtkins> What's the whiteboard?
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# [01:12] <TabAtkins> Don't see that field anywhere.
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# [01:13] <Hixie> you have to edit it after filing the bug
# [01:13] <Hixie> for some reason
# [01:14] <TabAtkins> k, done
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# [01:25] <marcosc> caitp: I added the geolocation + wake lock abuse case to the document (haven't pushed yet).
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# [01:26] <Hixie> TabAtkins: thanks
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# [01:31] <MikeSmith> -there's also an early version of "Referer". It's called "Referree" [sic]. In a file from the very next day, it's called "Referee" [sic].
# [01:31] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webhistory/2014Jul/0002.html
# [01:34] <Hixie> why is the second marked [sic]?
# [01:34] <Hixie> oh because that word doesn't make sense there
# [01:34] <Hixie> nevermind
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# [02:04] <marcosc> Hixie: I added the basic abuse case - http://w3c-webmob.github.io/wake-lock-use-cases/#potential-for-abuse
# [02:04] <marcosc> I'm asking on Twitter for more
# [02:05] * marcosc heading home now... but if anyone has any others please let me know
# [02:06] <caitp> i guess that would be a fun bug for some college kids to work on at least, so it's got that going for it
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# [13:56] <JakeA> Anyone awake enough to set me up an account on the whatwg wiki?
# [13:59] <jgraham> JakeA: Sure I can do it
# [14:00] <JakeA> jgraham: Cheers!
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# [14:01] <JakeA> jgraham: jakearchibald jaffathecake@gmail.com
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# [14:28] <MikeSmith> the "polyglot" document is very consistent about being really sloppy
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# [14:29] <Ms2ger> Ha
# [14:29] <MikeSmith> if you look at the Status section at http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/WD-html-polyglot-20140204/ and find the link with the hypertext "facilitate migration to and from XHTML" and you follow it.. it goes to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/document-metadata.html#charset "Specifying the document's character encoding"
# [14:30] <MikeSmith> ...which says nothing about how to "facilitate migration to and from XHTML"
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# [14:30] <MikeSmith> and there's a pattern of instances of stuff like that throughout the document
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# [14:33] <Ms2ger> You're not supposed to click the links
# [14:38] <MikeSmith> no, you're supposed to put yourself in the mind of the authors before you click the links
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# [18:00] <Domenic> Has nobody built something that auto-generates JS function headers from WebIDL?
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# [18:04] <MikeSmith> Domenic: as opposed to C++ function headers? I would that somebody from a browser project had moved some feature completely to JS might must have
# [18:05] <MikeSmith> I mean I think there have been some cases of things being moved to JS
# [18:05] <Domenic> MikeSmith: well, I am starting that browser project to move features completely to JS, so... not here at least :P
# [18:05] <caitp> do optional parameters in webidl affect the arity of a function / are they supposed to?
# [18:05] <MikeSmith> not just abarth's marquee implementation, but other things earlier
# [18:06] <MikeSmith> Domenic: maybe something over there in gecko (me waves hands around a bit)
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# [18:16] <jgraham> We can do you C++ or Rust, but not js
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# [18:25] <Ms2ger> Domenic, we have JS-implemented stuff, but I don't think anything to generate stub implementations
# [18:25] <Domenic> Ms2ger: thanks... I'll probably start something on GitHub then ^_^
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# [18:28] <Domenic> Oh wait, I guessed a URL and found marcosc's https://www.npmjs.org/package/webidl
# [18:32] <MikeSmith> さすがmarcosc
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# [18:40] <TabAtkins> caitp: Yes, they do affect the arity.
# [18:41] <TabAtkins> caitp: ...pretty sure.
# [18:41] <caitp> weird, that's pretty different behaviour from the standard library
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> ?
# [18:42] <caitp> from JS builtins
# [18:42] <TabAtkins> Is it?
# Session Close: Tue Jul 15 18:46:10 2014
#
# Session Start: Tue Jul 15 18:46:10 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [18:46] * Disconnected
# [18:47] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
# [18:47] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
# [18:47] * Topic is 'http://www.whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [18:47] * Set by annevk!~annevk@207.218.72.65 on Tue Mar 25 11:47:32
# [18:47] <cryptic> it's all html content
# [18:47] <TabAtkins> And HTML tags use characters in the ASCII range of unicode, which may or may not be ASCII-compatible in your chosen encoding.
# [18:48] <TabAtkins> cryptic: I know it's all HTML content. That's what I"m saying.
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# [18:50] <cryptic> at the end of the day, it doesn't matter between text/csv and application/csv; I'm just not sure which one comports with the specifications (that some browsers correctly display unescaped unicode characters is not behavior the specs would lead one to expect)
# [18:51] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
# [18:51] <cryptic> but I guess if text meant ascii, it'd be ascii/* and not text/*
# [18:52] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
# [18:52] * Ms2ger notes the topic
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# [18:54] <gsnedders> Defining "text" is hard :)
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# [19:02] <TabAtkins> cryptic: If you've been specifying an ASCII charset and escaping all your non-ASCII character in HTML all this time, just in case someone was following some obsolete directive from some ancient version of the text/* definition, then I"m very sorry. ^_^
# [19:03] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: hey, Hixie publishes the spec as US-ASCII!
# [19:03] <TabAtkins> ...why?
# [19:04] <Ms2ger> So that he can push it to the IETF, duh
# [19:04] <gsnedders> he got fed up of having issues with dev.w3.org and Content-Type headers specificing charset
# [19:04] <gsnedders> IIRC
# [19:04] <gsnedders> and just changed it to use US-ASCII everywhere
# [19:04] <TabAtkins> Oh, huh. I have no idea what those issues might be, since we all use utf-8 in CSS.
# [19:04] <gsnedders> source is UTF-8, but the published specs are ASCII
# [19:04] <gsnedders> idk, this was years ago this was chnged
# [19:04] <gsnedders> *changed
# [19:04] <TabAtkins> That's silly.
# [19:05] <Ms2ger> W3C? It happens
# [19:05] <Hixie> gsnedders: actually source is ascii but i now publish as utf-8
# [19:06] <Hixie> then again, i don't publish on the w3c site anymore
# [19:07] <gsnedders> Hixie: well you parse source as utf-8 from memory! :P
# [19:07] <gsnedders> or rather used to
# [19:07] <Hixie> i do parse as utf-8
# [19:07] <Hixie> i mean, utf-8 is a superset of ascii, so...
# [19:08] <Hixie> anyway, i don't use anolis anymore
# [19:08] <Hixie> and once i've written my splitter, i won't use html5lib at all anymore :-)
# [19:08] * gsnedders remembers he was meant to see how fast Hixie's parser was
# [19:10] <Hixie> oh, yeah
# [19:10] <Hixie> how should we do that?
# [19:10] <Hixie> can i get you a binary or something?
# [19:10] <Hixie> what should it do?
# [19:10] <Hixie> or do you want to compile from source?
# [19:11] <gsnedders> well I'm on holiday now with nothing more than a kinda weak laptop, so let's not worry for now
# [19:11] <Hixie> k
# [19:11] <gsnedders> also what seems like a ridiculously slow internet connection :)
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# [19:33] <Hixie> ok i'm not entirely done yet but this patch is getting out of hand so i'm going to commit it soon
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# [19:33] <Hixie> anyone see any blockers? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
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# [19:34] <Hixie> (if you see them, mention them here. i'm going to be afk for about an hour, then i'll commit it)
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# [20:10] <Hixie> no comments, huh
# [20:10] <Hixie> ok
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# [20:23] <Ms2ger> Hixie, my browser still doesn't like the single-page spec :)
# [20:23] <Hixie> yeah
# [20:24] <Hixie> that's unlikely to change
# [20:24] <Hixie> in fact the pipeline change made it quite a bit fatter
# [20:24] <Hixie> since i have way more IDs now
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# [20:27] <jgraham> The spec's not done until Mozilla* won't run? [*on Ms2ger's laptop]
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# [20:27] <Ms2ger> I wonder what it does in Servo
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# [20:33] <gsnedders> Hixie: can I bat my eyelids and ask for ids on all parse errors again? ;P
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# [20:54] * GPHemsley wonders aloud (again?) about whether there will ever be an Acid4 test
# [20:55] <Ms2ger> No
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# [21:03] <caitp> so end-tags can have attributes?
# [21:03] <caitp> huh
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# [21:14] <Hixie> gsnedders: unique unchanging ones?
# [21:14] <Hixie> gsnedders: what's the use case again?
# [21:17] <gsnedders> Hixie: yeah; for the sake of html5lib-tests being able to assert the correct parse-error is being hit
# [21:18] <gsnedders> instead of just "a parse error was hit here"
# [21:18] <Hixie> is that a good thing? i mean, we don't want to make implementations have to track exactly what parse error was hit
# [21:18] <Hixie> it prevents quite a few interesting optimisations
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# [21:18] <Hixie> e.g. several times i coallesced parse errors
# [21:19] <gsnedders> AFAICT you either want to track them exactly or ignore them entirely
# [21:19] <Hixie> nah
# [21:19] <Hixie> the point of parse errors is to tell the author that there's a problem
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# [21:19] <Hixie> the author doesn't care whether it came from section 12.6.34.2.4 or section 12.6.33.1.6.4
# [21:19] <Hixie> the author just wants to know that their < is missing
# [21:19] <Hixie> or whatever
# [21:20] <Domenic> TabAtkins: fix the missing </pre> in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-color/ so I can tweet about how cool it is?
# [21:20] <gsnedders> so html5lib-python I think uses strings that aren't actually entirely unique to deal with stuff like this
# [21:20] <gsnedders> so maybe we don't want actual ids
# [21:21] <gsnedders> maybe an @data-parse-error='missing <' or smth
# [21:21] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Where is it?
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# [21:21] <TabAtkins> Whoops, it's a missing <code> I think.
# [21:22] <TabAtkins> </code>, rather.
# [21:22] <Hixie> gsnedders: again, i don't think that works. There are places where I just fire "something's wrong" and it could be any number of parse errors.
# [21:22] <Hixie> gsnedders: other places the spec has one parse error line, but the message should vary dramatically in an implementation giving useful advice
# [21:24] <gsnedders> I want something that makes sense to test that the implementation does useful advice. I don't care how we do this!
# [21:24] <TabAtkins> Domenic: fixed
# [21:24] <Domenic> TabAtkins: ah right yeah, code makes more sense
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# [21:25] <Domenic> TabAtkins: still there "custom stringifiers on the stringifiers object..."
# [21:26] <TabAtkins> Sorry, forgot to commit.
# [21:26] <Hixie> gsnedders: i'm not sure how the spec can help there
# [21:26] <TabAtkins> It was fixed in my local copy, I don't see what the problem si.
# [21:26] <Hixie> gsnedders: "useful" is something that is too subjective
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# [21:36] * gsnedders concludes playing Super Mario Bros is more fun than working out what "useful" is :)
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# [22:09] <Domenic> Ms2ger: are these the only tests that exist for select? https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/175953ab7f14aedbcf2a5219ede4387bc86a3b91/html/semantics/forms/the-select-element
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# [22:09] <Ms2ger> Possibly
# [22:11] <gsnedders> does anyone have data for how common with/direct-eval are in JS on the web as a whole?
# [22:11] <caitp> can we add a test that asserts one particular way to behave when options are dynamically added to a select control?
# [22:12] <TabAtkins> Ask on es-discuss, I'm sure someone's got some data.
# [22:12] <caitp> i want browsers to do something consistent there :[
# [22:12] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: bah, I'm not subscribed to es-discuss any more!
# [22:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: Seems unlikely? Well unless people are instrumenting actual js engines I suppose. Are they?
# [22:13] <Ms2ger> Good call
# [22:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: you could do it at an AST level, and you guys definitely have some instrumentation in SM
# [22:16] <gsnedders> jgraham: so you can do it cheaply
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# Session Close: Wed Jul 16 00:00:00 2014

The end :)