/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-07-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 16 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:07] <smaug____> dglazkov_: so do you or someone else from blink team have plans to go through all the in-doc vs. not-in-doc cases and file spec bugs when stuff should work also in shadow DOM ?
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  8. # [00:07] <smaug____> currently implementing shadow dom in interoperable way isn't really a trivial task
  9. # [00:08] * smaug____ will be going through about 800 cases when gecko uses IsInDoc or GetCurrentDoc
  10. # [00:10] <smaug____> oh, it wasn't quite that much
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  12. # [00:10] <smaug____> perhaps only 400
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  16. # [00:14] <mitchell> Hello. Would you guys please help me find a list or table of 63 established *-English Braille symbols (1 cell, 6-dots) and their correlating ASCII characters?
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  18. # [00:15] <mitchell> for instance, http://www.duxburysystems.com/braillechart.asp but limited to one cell
  19. # [00:16] <mitchell> actually, words 63 words instead of characters would be okay too
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  34. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> mitchell: You looking for the character information? Here's all of Braille in Unicode: http://symbolcodes.tlt.psu.edu/bylanguage/braillechart.html
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  36. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> But that doesn't help with the definitino of them. What are you having trouble finding, precisely?
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  42. # [00:43] <mitchell> TabAtkins: yea, I need an alphabet which gives meaning to those symbols. my goal is write a 2 character identifier on ~2,000 pieces of paper in both English and Braille.
  43. # [00:43] <mitchell> s/alphabet/dictionary
  44. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> What's lacking in http://www.duxburysystems.com/images/bana_black.pdf ?
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  46. # [00:45] <mitchell> I thought it was what I needed at first, and maybe I'm misunderstanding it, because it seems to use multiple cells
  47. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> For some words, yes.
  48. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> But the letters are single-cell.
  49. # [00:46] <mitchell> so, for example "child". that is 1 cell, and "children" is 2?
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  53. # [00:48] <mitchell> I think I'm getting a little more clear with it. I think I'll just need to cross out the multi-cell terms and then it'll be good, hopefully
  54. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> The word "child" appears to be, yes.
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  56. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> Note that "child" apparentlyl has the special rule that it must be surrounded by spaces.
  57. # [00:49] <mitchell> whoa, good point
  58. # [00:50] <jsbell> nifty, didn't know Braille had an extra layer
  59. # [00:50] <mitchell> the pattern that I'm seeing is that I'm basically picking up 2-letter combinations with the remaining 36 (63-27) symbols
  60. # [00:50] <mitchell> jsbell: what do you mean by layer?
  61. # [00:51] <jsbell> That it's not just 1:1 with English glyphs.
  62. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> mitchell: Yeah, it seems like the remaining symbols are for word shortening.
  63. # [00:52] <jsbell> Like a standard set of abbreviations that include special use non-letter "glyphs"
  64. # [00:52] <jsbell> I wish I was young enough to learn Classic Mayan script. :P
  65. # [00:52] <caitp-> you are!
  66. # [00:53] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  67. # [00:53] <mitchell> jsbell: yea, shortened words seems to be common across different Braille systems (as far as my reading today shows)
  68. # [00:53] <mitchell> TabAtkins: thanks for helping me understand this chart better
  69. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> mitchell: No problem.
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  405. # [16:55] <gnarf> anyone know if there is a spec / polyfill implementation for the CSS colors API: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-color/#apis ?
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  407. # [16:56] <gnarf> s/spec/tests/
  408. # [16:56] <Ms2ger> Neither
  409. # [16:56] <gnarf> I might start working on one / look at turning into jQuery Color 3
  410. # [16:57] <gnarf> the api is close enough i could consume it in jQuery color
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  412. # [16:58] <caitp> i'm surprised lea doesn't have something like that already
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  426. # [17:36] <Domenic> gnarf: I think that API is less than a week old :)
  427. # [17:36] <gnarf> *shrug*
  428. # [17:36] <gnarf> worth looking into
  429. # [17:36] <gnarf> i already have most of it written
  430. # [17:38] <Domenic> definitely! just, i would be surprised if any polyfills existed
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  432. # [17:39] <gnarf> i'm never surprised when someone beats me to a polyfill though :)
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  495. # [20:15] <smaug____> Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#rules-for-parsing-a-hash-name-reference step 3. What is the context there? "Return the first element" is rather vague. Should it be return the first element in document ... Or is it about the same subtree where img element lives (in case of usamap)?
  496. # [20:15] <smaug____> usemap
  497. # [20:16] * Hixie looks...
  498. # [20:16] <Hixie> hm yeah, it doesn't say which Document, huh
  499. # [20:19] <Hixie> smaug____: do you happen to know the right answer?
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  501. # [20:19] <Hixie> smaug____: i've filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26359 -- if you happen to know what the compat need is, add a comment; otherwise, you can assume i'm going to make the spec use the Document of the <img> or <object>, not the home subtree
  502. # [20:20] <smaug____> yeah, Document sounds better
  503. # [20:20] <smaug____> shadow DOM may want some changes, but not sure what kind of
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  522. # [21:01] <caitp> if you open http://plnkr.co/edit/Wli7OkXQJ2V772jH95rb?p=preview in firefox, is the behaviour in firefox acceptable in terms of the spec? (like, is this an implementation-defined thing where no standard behaviour should ever be expected?)
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  532. # [21:51] <MikeSmith> caitp: you mean that gecko changes the value the moment you focus on it, instead of waiting for you to actually select it?
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  534. # [21:51] <caitp> yeah
  535. # [21:52] <caitp> it seems to be correct as far as things are defined in the spec, but it still seems really bizarre
  536. # [21:54] <gsnedders> caitp: yeah, that's well into impl-defined behaviour
  537. # [21:54] <caitp> I don't think that should be implementation defined, because it breaks interoperability under certain circumstances
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  539. # [21:55] <caitp> we've found a whole pile of interop issues between the different implementations with select controls, it makes things very difficult :(
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  543. # [22:10] <MikeSmith> caitp: gsnedders I think even if the spec doesn't explicitly prohibit it, that's bad UX for end users, and counter-intuitive for Web developers
  544. # [22:11] <MikeSmith> I don't expect my application behavior to change when a user simply changes the focus of a select control without actually you know, intentionally selecting something
  545. # [22:15] <gsnedders> I feel like for some of the form widgets many mobile platforms don't have the clear focusing distinction that you get on most desktop OSes
  546. # [22:15] <caitp> one of the interns filed a bug about this with gecko, I'm just trying to make a case for it
  547. # [22:15] <gsnedders> but maybe that's not true, idk
  548. # [22:15] <caitp> well I think it's more that on mobile/touch screens you can't really "hover"
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  552. # [22:19] <MikeSmith> caitp: hard to judge from that plunk, since when I view it in Nightly on my mobile I don't even get a select control showing up
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  555. # [22:21] <caitp> yeah, I think plunker has some issues with a good number of browsers, have to talk to ggoodman about that =) it should work better in jsfiddle
  556. # [22:21] <MikeSmith> oh http://run.plnkr.co/gZNU4S2M19ttmRa0/ does work on mobile though
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  558. # [22:22] <smaug____> caitp: what is bizarre in the Gecko behavior ?
  559. # [22:22] <caitp> smaug____, the bizarre thing is that the selectedness of options change when you hover the cursor over them
  560. # [22:22] * smaug____ could be missing something
  561. # [22:22] <smaug____> so?
  562. # [22:23] <caitp> so, this is not behaviour shared with any other browser on the market, and is kind of unexpected
  563. # [22:23] <smaug____> why it is unexpected?
  564. # [22:23] <MikeSmith> caitp: and if you use it on mobile the action of changing the focus of the select control does in fact amount to the same action as actually selecting a new value. No clear distinction, as gsnedders pointed out
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  566. # [22:24] <caitp> yes, but I think that's fine for touch screens
  567. # [22:24] <caitp> it's more awkward for actual pointers
  568. # [22:24] <MikeSmith> yeah, agreed
  569. # [22:25] <MikeSmith> on desktop that's counter-inutitive and badly surprising
  570. # [22:25] * smaug____ can't understand the issue
  571. # [22:26] <caitp> imagine you're ordering a pizza, and you are just reading the menu, and the act of reading the menu causes your credit card to be charged before you've made a decision
  572. # [22:26] <caitp> it's kinda like that
  573. # [22:26] <MikeSmith> smaug____: a user doesn't expect things to change in an application if they simply just focus on a different option in a select control prior to actually intentionally selecting a different option
  574. # [22:27] <MikeSmith> it's a two-step action on desktop, where you have a pointer
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  576. # [22:28] <MikeSmith> and gecko is prematurely deciding the user has selected something before the user has actually completed the action
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  578. # [22:29] <smaug____> it is the current selection
  579. # [22:30] <smaug____> I don't see the UX issue, but I can see how this could lead to issues if web apps rely on behavior of other browsers
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  587. # [22:47] <gnarf> TabAtkins: you happen to be around?
  588. # [22:48] <gnarf> TabAtkins: looking at implementing some tests / the ecmascript api for css color module 4 - one question i had - how do to deal with out of range values, i.e. 1.1 lightness - 110% ?
  589. # [22:49] <TabAtkins> Nothing special. They're valid, and get handled by CSS when you serialize them.
  590. # [22:49] <gnarf> to hex?
  591. # [22:50] <gnarf> 256 -> hex ?
  592. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Is possible to specify colors outside if the sRGB gamut.
  593. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> The hex IDL prevents them from going above 255 or below 0
  594. # [22:50] <gnarf> aha - i see
  595. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> [Clamp] octet does that
  596. # [22:51] <Domenic> gnarf: write them as web-platform-tests so you can contribute them to the common browser test suite!
  597. # [22:51] <gnarf> miseed that [Clamp] octet
  598. # [22:52] <MikeSmith> smaug____: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1039047 (regarding the select behavior) by way of caitp by way of https://github.com/angular/angular.js/pull/8221
  599. # [22:53] <caitp> oh man, our top secret conversation!
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The end :)