/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-07-17 / end

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  53. # [02:47] * MikeSmith will be busy for the next half hour or so
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  76. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/pamelafox/status/489541624154689536
  77. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> "To confirm, "allow-popups" means allow window.open? There's no way to prevent window.prompt/alert, correct?"
  78. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> that true?
  79. # [04:34] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ☝️
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  81. # [04:35] <caitp-> does it actually mean anything at all in non-IE browsers? afaik all of those properties basically don't work in chrome/ff
  82. # [04:35] <Domenic> wat
  83. # [04:36] <caitp-> certainly anything involving window decorations doesn't work, but from experimentation I've noticed that some other ones didn't either, so I'd be surprised if any of them really worked
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  85. # [04:36] <SamB> any of what?
  86. # [04:37] <caitp-> what are they called, the comma-separated options you can pass to window.open
  87. # [04:38] <caitp-> the interop for those has basically always been a myth
  88. # [04:38] <caitp-> oh, but I guess allow-popups isn't one of them
  89. # [04:38] <caitp-> maybe I'm talking out of my ass after a few glasses of wine :)
  90. # [04:40] <caitp-> are they talking about csp then or something? i'm confused :D
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  95. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> caitp-: yeah csp
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  97. # [04:47] <MikeSmith> she was replying to Mike West
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  99. # [04:48] <caitp-> yeah, csp is probably less broken than window.open options
  100. # [04:49] * MikeSmith goes back to listening to Bigott's The Reno Poem
  101. # [04:49] <SamB> caitp-: you're talking about those evil things that people used to use to pop up browser windows with the %^@@^@ chrome stripped off so you couldn't easily do what you wanted with them?
  102. # [04:50] <caitp-> yeah, terrible stuff
  103. # [04:51] <SamB> best interop there is probably NOP
  104. # [04:51] <SamB> for the most part
  105. # [04:52] <caitp-> i recall there was a thread on blink-dev about making those either actually work, or throwing them away entirely, recently
  106. # [04:52] <caitp-> can't remember which it was
  107. # [04:53] <SamB> maybe some way to slim them down a bit, but let the user unslim at his/her whim, would be acceptable ...
  108. # [04:54] <caitp-> anyway, it was my misunderstanding of a tweet, I blame alcohol, can't expect me to be fully lucid at any hour, let alone 11pm :)
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  113. # [05:35] <Hixie> MikeSmith: there's no way to either prevent or allow window.alert and company, correct. I would expect browsers to make sandboxed window.alert() rather uninteresting, though.
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  118. # [06:23] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ok
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  227. # [10:58] <Ms2ger> krit, why rename DOMRectList yet again?
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  229. # [10:59] <Ms2ger> krit, that has a non-trivial engineering cost that could be better used elsewhere
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  231. # [11:03] <krit> Ms2ger: not that I am favour for renaming it it Legacy... What is the engineering cost? After all, Gecko would require WebKit, Blink and ie I rename it from ClientRectList to the new name anyway.
  232. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> Gecko and Servo have renamed ClientRectList already
  233. # [11:03] * krit excuse typos, am on my phone
  234. # [11:04] <Ms2ger> Haven't webkit and friend?
  235. # [11:04] <Ms2ger> friends*
  236. # [11:04] <krit> So? If you don't want the renaming, speak up on the mailing list. I renamed it since everyone wanted me to
  237. # [11:05] <krit> No, no one renamed it yet
  238. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> No one except two
  239. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> Alright, I'll complain
  240. # [11:05] <Ms2ger> Also, what happened to https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/rev/46405013c12f?
  241. # [11:05] <krit> Well, it is no bug deal to rename
  242. # [11:06] <jgraham> Putting "Legacy" in the name of things is just stupid
  243. # [11:06] <krit> Ms2ger: removed ArrayClass by request from hey am
  244. # [11:06] <krit> Heycam
  245. # [11:07] <Ms2ger> And now added it back?
  246. # [11:07] <krit> Ms2ger: but everyone else wanted it back
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  248. # [11:07] <Ms2ger> At least annevk replied that he's not part of "everyone else"
  249. # [11:07] <krit> Ms2ger: yeah, heycam admitted that it might have been a mistake to remove it
  250. # [11:09] <krit> Ms2ger: vote for renaming it back on the mailing list and we will see what the TAG thinks about it
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  255. # [11:11] <Ms2ger> Done
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  257. # [11:12] <Ms2ger> Anyway, I've already spent more time on this spec than I can justify
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  272. # [11:43] <krit> Ms2ger: k, thanks
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  279. # [12:12] <JakeA> Returning true/false with a promise feels really awkward. Eg asyncMap.has(key).then(function(hasKey) { ... }) - I guess it's a lot more natural in async functions
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  285. # [12:36] <JakeA> …even more awkward with asyncMap.get(key).then(function(item) { }) - where item is undefined if it's not in the map
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  287. # [12:39] <smaug____> hayato: so while implementing shadow dom in blink, did anyone go through all the is-in-doc and get-current-doc (which can be null, unlink ownerDoc) cases ?
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  289. # [12:44] <foolip> Ms2ger, jgraham, I'm thinking about adding some Fullscreen API tests to web-platform-tests, but all but the most trivial require a trusted click event, which would make them manual tests
  290. # [12:45] <foolip> In Blink/WebKit the test environment has a way to produce trusted clicks, which is used for this kind of thing
  291. # [12:45] <Ms2ger> Gecko has something similar, but jgraham doesn't like it :)
  292. # [12:45] <Ms2ger> Maybe WebDriver?
  293. # [12:45] <jgraham> I was going to say that I didn't think that anyone liked it :p
  294. # [12:46] <foolip> Do you have any ideas about how to write tests so that the tests can be run both manually and automatically?
  295. # [12:46] <jgraham> WebDriver is certainly the long-term solution
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  297. # [12:46] <foolip> ok, I looked a bit at that yesterday actually, but wasn't sure what I was looking at
  298. # [12:46] <foolip> are there any existing tests on the form I'm talking about to compare with?
  299. # [12:46] <jgraham> Well the problem is that we're not really read to accept webdriver tests yet
  300. # [12:47] <jgraham> We need to decide on a client binding
  301. # [12:47] <smaug____> testharness could rely on some browser specific library. So when run in Gecko it would use SpecialPowers object to dispatch trusted events
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  303. # [12:48] <foolip> smaug____: that was basically my thinking, yes
  304. # [12:49] <jgraham> smaug____: I think it wouldn't be quite that simple, but yeah, I guess the short term solution is to have a file that is empty by default and vendors can replace to provide a specific implementation of trusted clicks
  305. # [12:50] <foolip> I suppose I could also just write manual tests, and then when importing those to Blink add a script that clicks the magic button after onload
  306. # [12:50] <jgraham> Yeah
  307. # [12:50] <foolip> how would things look with WebDriver, in the shiny future?
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  309. # [12:51] <jgraham> Well with webdriver I guess you would have a python file that did something like webdriver.get("test.html"); webdriver.getElementByCSSSelector("#button").click()
  310. # [12:52] <jgraham> Assuming we have python bindings
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  312. # [12:52] <foolip> with webdriver, is the python test the top-level thing?
  313. # [12:52] <foolip> if so each test would require an identical python counterpart?
  314. # [12:52] <foolip> that would be unimpressive
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  316. # [12:53] <jgraham> It would be interesting if we could invert the control somehow, or use templating
  317. # [12:54] <foolip> indeed, something like that
  318. # [12:54] <jgraham> e.g have test.webdriver.html with <meta name="webdriver" content="test.py"> and test.py would look like webdriver.get("{{location}}")[...]
  319. # [12:55] <jgraham> That actually seems like a pretyt neat solution
  320. # [12:55] <smaug____> python?
  321. # [12:55] <foolip> are there no JavaScript bindings for WebDriver?
  322. # [12:55] <jgraham> There are
  323. # [12:55] <jgraham> But
  324. # [12:55] <jgraham> They all require node
  325. # [12:56] <jgraham> and webdriver is sync
  326. # [12:56] <jgraham> So they are all hacks to make js act in a sync way
  327. # [12:56] <foolip> hmm
  328. # [12:57] <jgraham> I'm not at all crazy about making node a dependency for the testsuite when python already is
  329. # [12:57] * Quits: jingtaoliu (~technommy@61.144.248.40) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  330. # [12:57] <Ms2ger> +1
  331. # [12:57] <smaug____> js would feel more natural ...
  332. # [12:57] <foolip> otherwise a <script language="text/javascript+webdriver"> or something that'll be ignored by the browser could be a way
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  334. # [12:57] <smaug____> (and js is less horrible language)
  335. # [12:57] <jgraham> smaug____: I think that second point is highly debatable :p
  336. # [12:58] <smaug____> based on empirical data, me writing python, python is a bad language. Slow to write and easy to make errors ;)
  337. # [12:59] <smaug____> and hard to read
  338. # [12:59] <jgraham> smaug____: Curiously I have the same experience with js :p
  339. # [12:59] <jgraham> But if you think python is hard to read I don't know what to tell you
  340. # [12:59] <foolip> so, um, trolling aside, I guess right now I can't make it all nice and pretty
  341. # [12:59] <jgraham> foolip: Not really, sorry
  342. # [13:00] <Ms2ger> We all know smaug____ has poor taste in languages :)
  343. # [13:00] <foolip> so I think I'll try the manual test thing, and include a script that inserts a button to click, which could be modified when integrated with Blink or Gecko
  344. # [13:01] <foolip> unfortunately those tests will have -manual in the name, which may cause problems
  345. # [13:01] <jgraham> Given that we haven't really solved "have a testsuite requiring just web-exposed features that all browsers actually run", getting one with opt-in to non-web-exposed features hasn't been a priority
  346. # [13:01] <foolip> or would it be ok to have them fail by default?
  347. # [13:02] <jgraham> Well I don't mind tests that fail, but tests that *can't* pass even if you implement the feature are going to upset peopke
  348. # [13:02] <jgraham> *people
  349. # [13:02] <foolip> so maybe having them manual by default is the most conservative option
  350. # [13:03] <jgraham> Yeah, unfortunately I think it is
  351. # [13:04] <jgraham> Assuming we eventually solve this via webdriver, I guess there might be a plan by, say, the end of the year to get that working
  352. # [13:05] <foolip> ok, this stuff is hard, it seems
  353. # [13:07] <jgraham> Yeah, it's hard because it's not cross browser
  354. # [13:08] <jgraham> I mean we could probably solve it in a slightly hacky way, but I'm not super-desperate to extend the current gecko SpecialPowers stuff into wpt
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  356. # [13:10] <foolip> One thing I realize now is that some tests will actually need trusted clicks multiple times, when entering nested fullscreen
  357. # [13:10] <foolip> the way the WebKit tests are written is to have a runWithKeyDown() helper that runs your function in a trusted event
  358. # [13:11] <foolip> converting that to WebDriver would require a way to ask the WebDriver to click somewhere, but does there exist a communication channel to make that request?
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  361. # [13:14] <jgraham> Yeah, you can return data if needed
  362. # [13:14] <foolip> kind of like postMessage?
  363. # [13:14] <foolip> returning data once isn't going to be good enough I think
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  365. # [13:14] <jgraham> Well the API isn't event based, so it's hard to react to a stream of events
  366. # [13:15] <jgraham> But you can do things like executeAsyncScript() which runs a function in the scope of the page, and can poll for data
  367. # [13:15] <foolip> ok, so you could fall back to polling for a button to press?
  368. # [13:15] <smaug____> how well is the svg spec maintained ?
  369. # [13:16] <smaug____> shepazu might know
  370. # [13:16] <jgraham> foolip: If you only need to find a single button and there is an event you could executeAsyncScript(onevent = function(event) {callback(event.button)}) or something
  371. # [13:17] <jgraham> Or do that once per button you need to find
  372. # [13:20] <jgraham> It's not that intuitive if you come from a browser background
  373. # [13:20] <jgraham> It would have worked better if they'd made the API async. But the theory is that people testing web sites are typically not comforatble with that kind of programming :|
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  377. # [13:33] <foolip> ok...
  378. # [13:34] <foolip> I guess it's all hypothetical until I can actually try WebDriver in wpt
  379. # [13:39] <jgraham> Yeah, I guess it's a worry that trying to seperate out this kind of priviledged action will be less convenient than SpecialPowers-like APIs which just allow people to wantonly mix browser-specific stuff into otherwise cross-browser tests, so they won't bother to write cross-browser tests at all
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  402. # [14:30] <MikeSmit1> smaug____: which SVG spec? 1.1?
  403. # [14:30] <MikeSmit1> smaug____: krit could help probably
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  406. # [14:31] <krit> smaug____: SVG2? Depending of the kind of issue you have, pretty responsive https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/
  407. # [14:32] <smaug____> krit: I'm just going through is-in-doc checks
  408. # [14:32] <krit> smaug____: basic maintenance of SVG1.1… don’t expect updates till the next errata
  409. # [14:32] <smaug____> in order to figure out how shadow dom actually should work
  410. # [14:32] <krit> smaug____: oh, shadow-dom :) well, that is very vague at the moment
  411. # [14:33] <krit> smaug____: you can also email on www-svg and might get some feedback from Blink… they actively based <use> on shadow DOM
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  414. # [14:36] <smaug____> krit: well, in blink shadow dom + is-in-doc is rather random
  415. # [14:36] <smaug____> things work against the current specs etc
  416. # [14:36] <smaug____> I'm mainly trying to figure out how on earth to implement shadow dom in interoperable way
  417. # [14:37] <krit> smaug____: in Blink?
  418. # [14:37] <krit> smaug____: or across HTML/SVG ?
  419. # [14:37] <smaug____> well, all that
  420. # [14:38] <krit> smaug____: ok, IIRC this is still an open question on the Shadow DOM side (I thought you meant <use> based on shadow DOM because I recently was speaking with someone about that)
  421. # [14:39] <krit> smaug____: Many thinks in the Shadow DOM spec require HTMLElements
  422. # [14:39] <krit> smaug____: currently SVGElement does not inherit from HTMLElement
  423. # [14:40] <smaug____> right
  424. # [14:40] <krit> smaug____: you should ask dglazkov_ when it comes to Shadow DOM. He might have a way forward
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  427. # [14:52] <JakeA> Are there any APIs that suggest a response has status 200 (vs 4**/5**), even if the response is from another origin, aside from appcache?
  428. # [14:53] <JakeA> (assuming the request is no-cors)
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  431. # [15:01] <MikeSmith> JakeA: none I can think of. Not that my knowledge could be considered broad..
  432. # [15:02] * MikeSmith looks at https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/discovery-api/Overview.html
  433. # [15:03] <JakeA> MikeSmith: trying to work out if the appcache thing was a mistake that shouldn't be repeated
  434. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> JakeA: I think it wasn't an unintentional mistake at the time it was specced at least (as opposed to in hindsight now). But you'd probably want to hear from the guy who wrote it, as far as the rationale
  435. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> provided he still remembers at this point
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  457. # [15:59] <Domenic> Does any browser implement add*Event*Listener for MediaQueryList?
  458. # [15:59] <Ms2ger> I doubt it
  459. # [15:59] <jgraham> foolip: So I realised on the tube that something like <script type="text/webdriver+python">getElement("#button").click()</script> would be rather straightforward to implement
  460. # [15:59] <Domenic> yeah MDN was unhelpful. but i noticed today for the first time that the spec included EventTarget
  461. # [16:00] <Ms2ger> It was discussed a while ago
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  522. # [16:59] <Ms2ger> Is workers-in-workers something new?
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  536. # [17:10] <caitp> you mean because it's not implemented in blink?
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  567. # [18:06] <Ms2ger> https://twitter.com/Aeyoun/status/489790384193548288
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  570. # [18:13] <Ms2ger> showModalDialog ... was never formally standardized
  571. # [18:14] <Ms2ger> abarth, wat
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  575. # [18:17] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Really?
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  583. # [18:30] <abarth> Ms2ger: hi
  584. # [18:31] <Ms2ger> How is that claim true?
  585. # [18:31] <abarth> dunno
  586. # [18:31] <Ms2ger> Why'd you make it, then?
  587. # [18:32] <abarth> i didn't write the blog post
  588. # [18:32] <abarth> despite it having my name attached to it :(
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  590. # [18:33] <Ms2ger> That seems like a poor situation
  591. # [18:33] <abarth> indeed
  592. # [18:34] <SimonSapin> Hixie: http://whatwg.org/html#quotes uses selectors like :root:lang(af), :not(:lang(af)) > :lang(af). Why this rather than just :lang(af)? AFAICT they’re equivalent, assuming no other 'quotes' declaration in the UA stylesheet.
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  595. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> I think the issue was with <p lang=en>Voltaire said <q lang=fr>quelque chose</q>
  596. # [18:37] <Ms2ger> Does quotes apply to the element it's set on?
  597. # [18:37] * jgraham is not down with the kids enough to know which blog post is being refered to
  598. # [18:38] <Ms2ger> http://blog.chromium.org/2014/07/disabling-showmodaldialog.html
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  604. # [18:47] <Hixie> SimonSapin: the problem is other 'quotes' declarations in the UA stylesheet
  605. # [18:48] <Hixie> SimonSapin: or the author style sheet
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  609. # [18:53] <SimonSapin> oh, right. In <div lang=en><p style="quotes: '«' '»'"><q>, :lang(en) would apply instead of the inherited value.
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  612. # [18:54] <Hixie> right
  613. # [18:54] <Hixie> there's a bug on the current selector though
  614. # [18:54] <Hixie> arguably it's wrong
  615. # [18:54] <Hixie> i forget the problem
  616. # [18:54] <Hixie> something about what language to use on the quotes itself, or something
  617. # [18:54] <Hixie> or whether to reset the counter when you change languages
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  622. # [19:01] <Hixie> can i just say that specificity was a mistake
  623. # [19:01] <Hixie> a cool seeming, clever-sounding, mistake.
  624. # [19:04] <jgraham> s/specificity/css/ ? :)
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  626. # [19:06] <Ms2ger> s/css/the web/?
  627. # [19:09] <Hixie> css and the web as a whole aren't mistakes, they're good ideas with mistakes in them
  628. # [19:09] <Hixie> specificity is just a mistake.
  629. # [19:10] <SimonSapin> "W3C Invites Implementations of Polyglot Markup: A robust profile of the HTML5 vocabulary"
  630. # [19:11] <Ms2ger> Of course
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  639. # [19:34] <jgraham> Hixie: CSS isn't a mistake, but if you started from a clean slate today you would end up with something pretty different, I think
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  641. # [19:34] <Ms2ger> With or without the experience we've had with CSS?
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  643. # [19:39] <jgraham> Either?
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  649. # [19:44] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah. like, no specificity. :-)
  650. # [19:44] <Hixie> jgraham: and pretty different layout model primitives
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  653. # [19:46] <astearns> and presumably none of these: http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/mistakes
  654. # [19:46] <jgraham> I was mostly thinking of the layout model primitives
  655. # [19:47] <jgraham> And the sort of combinatorial explosion of complexity that happens every time you add a new one
  656. # [19:47] <Domenic> I really like that mistakes page
  657. # [19:47] <Domenic> it humanizes the CSSWG
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  664. # [19:55] <Hixie> some things in that list are wrong
  665. # [19:55] <Hixie> e.g. "Table layout should be sane" isn't a CSS mistake
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  667. # [19:56] <Hixie> it would have been far worse for CSS to not be compatible with what browsers already had
  668. # [19:57] <Hixie> and specificity is missing from that list :-)
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  679. # [20:33] <gsnedders> It's a problem with CSS, if you call them mistakes. Whether the CSS WG could do anything about them is tangential.
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  699. # [21:25] <TabAtkins> Someday fantasai and I will finish nailing down the actual layout primitives, so it'll at least be clear *what* things are exploding in complexity when you add a new one.
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  712. # [22:05] <mathiasbynens> Domenic: re: https://github.com/tc39/test262/pull/4#issuecomment-49222581 sure, once I get back from vacation :)
  713. # [22:05] <Domenic> mathiasbynens: awesome :)
  714. # [22:06] <mathiasbynens> Domenic: has there been any discussion on what to do with JS tests in https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests?
  715. # [22:07] <mathiasbynens> WPT has a lower barrier for entry (no CLA signing etc.) but test262 has a better structure, at least for JS specifically
  716. # [22:07] <Domenic> mathiasbynens: I was not aware that those tests existed; I don't think anyone else was either.
  717. # [22:10] <gsnedders> mathiasbynens: how many of them are correct per ES6?
  718. # [22:10] <mathiasbynens> gsnedders: not sure
  719. # [22:11] <mathiasbynens> but it seems like something can be done now to avoid duplicate efforts in the future
  720. # [22:11] <mathiasbynens> even if it’s just adding a note to the WPT readme
  721. # [22:12] <gsnedders> it'd be nice to look through opjsunit too, but most of that is either really basic stuff or regression tests
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  723. # [22:14] <mathiasbynens> i need to port http://mathias.html5.org/tests/javascript/ too (only the idenfitier tests need updating as per ES6)
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  745. # [22:44] <mathiasbynens> JakeA: can you confirm that http://www.chromestatus.com/features/6561526227927040 should be moved to M38?
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  748. # [22:53] <JakeA> mathiasbynens: yes
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  761. # [23:15] <Domenic> A lot of stuff on that page is not up to date with blink-dev announcements, at least this morning
  762. # [23:15] <mathiasbynens> ok, updated the SW section. you guys should probably get edit access ;)
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  764. # [23:17] <Domenic> JakeA: https://jakearchibald.github.io/isserviceworkerready/ doesn't reflect that Chrome 36 fixed Promise.resolve
  765. # [23:19] <mathiasbynens> http://domenic.me/aplus-tests-against-the-browser/ went from ~150 to 24 failures because of that
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  767. # [23:21] <JakeA> Domenic: will update, cheers
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  769. # [23:29] <tobie_> JakeA: have you considered returning Promise.race() for entries missing in the cache as suggested here: http://esdiscuss.org/topic/promise-any#content-7
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  771. # [23:29] <TabAtkins> tobie_: "Returning promise.race()" is a weird way to say "return an eternally pending promise".
  772. # [23:31] <tobie_> TabAtkins: well, it's a weird way to describe a weird concept. So it might be fitting.
  773. # [23:31] <TabAtkins> What's weird about a pending promise?
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  775. # [23:32] <tobie_> TabAtkins: nothing.
  776. # [23:32] <TabAtkins> EXACTLY
  777. # [23:32] <tobie_> TabAtkins: an *eternally* pending one, on the other hand…
  778. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> At least say "new Promise()". ^_^
  779. # [23:33] <tobie_> That throws.
  780. # [23:33] <tobie_> (not sure if impl or spec issue.)
  781. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> new Promise(function(){})
  782. # [23:33] <TabAtkins> Probably on purpose.
  783. # [23:37] <tobie_> That indeed reads better (than Promise.race()). Unsure why scott used Promise.race() instead.
  784. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> It technically does the same thing.
  785. # [23:38] <tobie_> Well, sure, but one expresses the intent a lot more clearly. :)
  786. # [23:38] <TabAtkins> Indeed. ^_^
  787. # [23:41] <tobie_> I'm curious as to whether returning an eternally pending promise works accidentally for this given cache/network race scenario or has other interesting properties.
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  790. # [23:42] <TabAtkins> Depends on what you mean by "accidentally". It avoids triggering the race end-times behavior.
  791. # [23:42] <tobie_> Well sure, I understand the how it works in that case.
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  793. # [23:44] <tobie_> JakeA tweeted earlier about whether cache.get(missingEntry) should resolve to undefined or reject.
  794. # [23:45] <tobie_> And both seem not ideal. Which is why I find this seemingly weird return an eternally pending promise suggestion at least worth looking into.
  795. # [23:46] <tobie_> s/And both seem not/Neither seem/
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  798. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> Hmm, interesting.
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  800. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> I don't think that eternally-pending is very great, though it has some interesting properties.
  801. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> It doesn't mix with future "await", for example.
  802. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> (You'd have to guard every get() with a Promise.race(cache.get(), Promise.timeout(...)), for example.)
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  804. # Session Close: Fri Jul 18 00:00:00 2014

The end :)