/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-07-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 22 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  9. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Ah, whoops, I never made that change.
  10. # [00:02] * TabAtkins desperately needs to just crank through all the minutes and find thinks he hasn't done yet.
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  12. # [00:02] <Hixie> heh
  13. # [00:02] <Hixie> that's what i use bug reports for
  14. # [00:02] <Hixie> (or e-mails to whatwg)
  15. # [00:02] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Define it in HTML, lemme know the anchor, I'll add it to Selectors and link to HTML for the lang-specific definition.
  16. # [00:03] <Hixie> roger
  17. # [00:03] <Hixie> anchor will be selector-modal
  18. # [00:03] <caitp> arv_, do you know if Object.observe (& related api) was ever in the harmony draft at all, and what happened to it if it was?
  19. # [00:03] <caitp> and why not if it wasn't :p
  20. # [00:03] <caitp> #jslang is a bit quiet today, so I inquire here
  21. # [00:03] <arv_> caitp: It was decided that it would go in ES7
  22. # [00:04] <arv_> caitp: and it uses the new process (waterfall, ship when ready model)
  23. # [00:04] <caitp> hmm I see
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  32. # [00:09] <caitp> so was the actual design finalized? or is that still likely/possible to change?
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  34. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Well, it's shipping now, so pretty final.
  35. # [00:10] <caitp> shipping in a single browser
  36. # [00:10] <caitp> behind flags
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  42. # [00:15] <caitp> anyways, I haven't really reviewed it yet, but Rob Eisenberg put together some tests http://jsperf.com/observing-objects using different strategies, and from his results it looks actually worse to depend on O.o by quite a bit compared to dirty checking. (but obviously prone to all the usual issues with jsperf, and possibly very bad tests)
  43. # [00:16] <caitp> so I just wanted to see if anything in the specification had changed, but couldn't find any of it :>
  44. # [00:17] <gsnedders> caitp: is that not QoI?
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  46. # [00:18] <caitp> well it might be a QoI issue, or it might be a fundamental problem with the algorithms, or it might be just bad tests
  47. # [00:18] <caitp> or a mix of 2 or all 3
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  49. # [00:19] <gsnedders> I suspect it's the fact that normal property accesses are ridiculously well optimized, and Object.observe is a slow-case compared with that
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  51. # [00:19] <gsnedders> I suspect observing it will always be slower than checking for changed properties
  52. # [00:20] <caitp> yes
  53. # [00:20] <caitp> but 1:100 might not be a very good ratio
  54. # [00:20] <gsnedders> Because fundementally in your baseline code you'll always generate simple property accesses and slowcase if there's an observer
  55. # [00:22] <caitp> right, but what it comes down to is it might not even be worth using if it's cheaper without
  56. # [00:23] <gsnedders> idk, I very much suspect the V8 impl is just unoptimized
  57. # [00:24] <caitp> could be, should get miško over there :p
  58. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> No, I think it's shipping publicly in the upcoming Chrome. (I think?)
  59. # [00:32] <caitp> oh, no apparently it's enabled by default in m36
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  65. # [00:37] <bretolius> sort of related… anyone have the w3c irc network url with the ssl port?
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  68. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> bretolius: irc.w3.org:6667
  69. # [00:39] <bretolius> TabAtkins ty :)
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  71. # [00:40] <caitp> that doesn't look like an ssl port
  72. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> Eh, it's the only port I kno.
  73. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> know
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  79. # [00:50] <Hixie> can someone check the "Manipulation of the execution context stack" thread on es-discuss to see if i'm missing something?
  80. # [00:50] <Hixie> i just don't understand what allen is saying
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  365. # [12:05] <Ms2ger> FTR, irc.w3.org only has SSL support for staff
  366. # [12:11] <jgraham> Was that apropos anything in particular?
  367. # [12:11] <Ms2ger> Backscroll
  368. # [12:12] <jgraham> Oh
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  371. # [12:17] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: why is it staff only, if you know?
  372. # [12:17] <Ms2ger> I don't
  373. # [12:17] <Ms2ger> Perhaps MikeSmith does
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  380. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> dunno but if I had to guess I'd guess for the same reason that freenode default is non-ssl
  381. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> like, so that people don't have to figure out how to configure their irc clients for ssl
  382. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> also there are some channels that are team-only so there needs to be some means to restrict access to those
  383. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> we used to do that by running on a different server that required an ssh tunnel to get to
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  413. # [14:35] <test_> Hello everyone
  414. # [14:35] <test_> I have a question
  415. # [14:37] <gsnedders> test_: just ask
  416. # [14:38] <test_> I wanna start bug hunting into browsers
  417. # [14:38] <gsnedders> jgraham: we need to work out how to deal with serializer tests in html5lib-tests again, because they're pretty html5lib-python specific and expect specific sets of options to be available and to be the defaults
  418. # [14:38] <test_> but I dont know where to start
  419. # [14:39] <gsnedders> test_: do you want to test any specific thing, or just anywhere in browsers? do you want to target specific types of bugs (like, say, security ones)?
  420. # [14:40] <test_> I want to hunt vulnerabilities
  421. # [14:40] <test_> UAF or OF or etc
  422. # [14:42] <test_> I want to fuzz core of browsers
  423. # [14:42] <gsnedders> so it's worthwhile to note that browser vendors write fuzzers to test a lot quickly, and run fuzzers with things like AddressSanitizer to detect such classes of bugs
  424. # [14:42] <test_> mutation or vector or SMT solvers
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  426. # [14:43] <test_> yess I know. But there is alot anyway
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  428. # [14:46] <gsnedders> symbolic execution (which is the only place I've seen SMT solvers around fuzzers) is unlikely to find much directly (the search space is just too big); practically you need to find some area you think will be more likely to yield security bugs and write a decent fuzzer to fuzz around it
  429. # [14:49] <test_> smt solvers + taint gives us some helpfull informations
  430. # [14:49] <test_> it can be used in fuzzing somehow
  431. # [14:49] <gsnedders> for sure it can in principle, it's just not something I've seen done much :)
  432. # [14:50] <test_> but I dont know how to select some area to fuzz
  433. # [14:50] <test_> I mean which areas will be more vulnerable
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  442. # [15:04] <gsnedders> test_: look at where bugs are found today; that's probably your best bet if you don't know the codebase yourself
  443. # [15:06] <Ms2ger> darobin_, Servo is always hiring ;)
  444. # [15:06] <wilhelm> Poking the network/protocol layer would be interesting.
  445. # [15:06] <darobin_> Ms2ger: do I need to know Rust already?
  446. # [15:06] * darobin_ is now known as Ms2ger_
  447. # [15:06] <Ms2ger_> bah
  448. # [15:06] * Ms2ger_ is now known as darobin
  449. # [15:06] <Ms2ger> Why yes, I'm here
  450. # [15:06] * darobin shouldn't try to do two things at once
  451. # [15:07] <darobin> Ms2ger: mmmmmm
  452. # [15:07] <darobin> that might actually be interesting
  453. # [15:07] <darobin> I'll think on it, thanks Ms2ger :)
  454. # [15:08] <Ms2ger> Np :)
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  459. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: I know PHP is Rust close to that
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  462. # [15:15] * wilhelm attaches a sphygmomanometer to Ms2ger.[C
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  467. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> well I know WordPress too
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  615. # [21:12] <Hixie> jorendorff: yt?
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  617. # [21:13] <jorendorff> Hixie: yep.
  618. # [21:13] <Hixie> jorendorff: any chance you could update the js spec html version?
  619. # [21:13] <Hixie> allen put out an update recently that affects the stuff i'm looking at
  620. # [21:13] <Hixie> but the pdf is a pain to deal with
  621. # [21:14] <jorendorff> Hixie: Yes, I'll work on it tonight.
  622. # [21:14] <Hixie> cool, thanks
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  625. # [21:15] <Hixie> i wonder how allen wants event handler attributes to work in the new world
  626. # [21:15] <Hixie> i also wonder how anne wants his fetch stuff to interact with ES Loader stuff
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  717. # Session Close: Wed Jul 23 00:00:00 2014

The end :)