/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-07-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 28 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:08] <Streusel> How does one go about removing a metaextension?
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  7. # [00:38] <GPHemsley> annevk: I responded, but I basically punted it back to you.
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  15. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> Streusel: you just remove it and note the reason in the comment when you submit the change
  16. # [01:12] <Streusel> alright
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  18. # [01:13] <MikeSmith> which by the way please actually do write a comment when you make any changes
  19. # [01:13] <Streusel> noted
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  188. # [10:49] <foolip> annevk: back from vacation?
  189. # [10:50] <annevk> foolip: yeah, trying to catch up with stuff I didn't get done on vacation
  190. # [10:50] <foolip> welcome back!
  191. # [10:50] <annevk> ta
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  193. # [10:52] <annevk> foolip: reading some xkcd, will do Fullscreen next
  194. # [10:53] <foolip> annevk knows his priorities
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  201. # [11:09] <annevk> foolip: basically, move step 7.1 to 4.0 in http://fullscreen.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document-exitfullscreen plus some rewording so it still makes sense
  202. # [11:09] <annevk> foolip: to fix https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26379
  203. # [11:11] <foolip> annevk: maybe, also have a look at https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26440 to see how you think that'll change things
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  206. # [11:17] <annevk> foolip: that bug makes a lot of sense, added some people that can hopefully sort out how we ought to define it
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  208. # [11:20] <foolip> annevk: great, let's do it!
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  234. # [12:03] <annevk> foolip: you didn't tweet about your fullscreen post
  235. # [12:03] * annevk wanted to RT from @WHATWG
  236. # [12:04] * annevk finds https://twitter.com/KrisBytes/status/491989665772474368 and https://twitter.com/KrisBytes/status/492268405240909824
  237. # [12:06] <jgraham> You can't please some of the people any of the time
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  243. # [12:23] <annevk> mounir_: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26440 is relevant for screen orientation as well
  244. # [12:23] <annevk> mounir_: all needs to be synchronized somehow
  245. # [12:26] <mounir_> annevk: how is it relevant?
  246. # [12:26] <mounir_> annevk: for the part where screen orientation is using fs?
  247. # [12:27] <annevk> mounir_: the relevant bit is that changes to orientation need to be synchronized with whenever animate frames happen
  248. # [12:27] <annevk> mounir_: and ordered somehow relative to all the other things that happen at that point
  249. # [12:29] <jgraham> annevk: Unrelatedly, what's the status of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20976 ? I might implement base URL support in servo at some point when it's clear what that should be
  250. # [12:30] <annevk> jgraham: comment 6 is still the plan of action
  251. # [12:31] <annevk> jgraham: there's no proposals that I know of that will make base URLs more complicated for now
  252. # [12:31] * Joins: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de)
  253. # [12:32] <jgraham> annevk: So compared to the spec what's different? Ignore <xml:base> and otherwise it's the same?
  254. # [12:33] <annevk> jgraham: HTML ties the base URL to nodes at the moment, so the difference would be that it would be tied to documents
  255. # [12:34] <annevk> jgraham: also yes, I guess, if you don't care about the difference in model it implies
  256. # [12:35] <jgraham> Well I guess I care to the extent that I want the implementation to follow the spec without being unnecessarily complex
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  258. # [12:38] <annevk> So yeah, comment 6
  259. # [12:38] <annevk> I'm waiting for implementations to remove xml:base support to align all the things
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  261. # [12:39] <annevk> I actually kind of hate this background updating feature of apps on my phone. I open the app, I see something interesting. And within a second it's replaced by new content and I can no longer find it.
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  269. # [13:11] <foolip> annevk: yeah, I didn't have the password handy when I wrote it and then I forgot :/
  270. # [13:11] <foolip> let me fix that
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  272. # [13:16] <foolip> annevk: https://twitter.com/foolip/status/493715626821955584
  273. # [13:16] <annevk> foolip: thanks for cleaning it up
  274. # [13:17] <foolip> annevk: I hope the unprefixing works out :/
  275. # [13:17] <annevk> me too
  276. # [13:18] <foolip> I think the biggest risk of breakage is the event target
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  278. # [13:19] <annevk> yeah, we can change that back I guess including the bubbling stuff, bit weird, but would not be the end of the world
  279. # [13:19] <annevk> and just falling back to document if the fullscreen stack is empty
  280. # [13:19] <foolip> yeah, it would be tolerable, but a bit weird, so I'll try per spec first
  281. # [13:19] <annevk> the spec was written shortly after things started shipping, but nobody ever updated :/
  282. # [13:20] <foolip> yeah
  283. # [13:20] <foolip> the biggest surprise to me was that WebKit's "Mozilla version" doesn't actually match anything that ever shipped in Firefox
  284. # [13:20] <annevk> anyway, along with some CSS stuff this is basically one of the last major pieces that went out with the broken prefix policy
  285. # [13:20] <annevk> which is the positive bit of this whole thing
  286. # [13:20] <annevk> hah
  287. # [13:21] * annevk -> shopping
  288. # [13:21] <foolip> have fun!
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  300. # [14:23] <annevk> foolip: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26366
  301. # [14:23] <annevk> foolip: if requestFullscreen unsets the pending element from its task
  302. # [14:24] <annevk> foolip: and the task does the animation
  303. # [14:25] <annevk> foolip: and exitFullscreen simply unsets it and otherwise does its own task thing, that should work, no?
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  315. # [15:34] <foolip> annevk: just replied
  316. # [15:35] <foolip> but other than that it seems sound that both functions should set some state and then queue a task (or await a stable state?) to check what to do
  317. # [15:35] <foolip> I'm honestly not sure how animation is supposed to work
  318. # [15:36] <foolip> is the assumption that implementations can animate *before* scripts have had a change to paint a fullscreen frame?
  319. # [15:36] <foolip> if so one can't blend between the two or anything like that
  320. # [15:37] <annevk> I think the idea was that the events would fire after the animation happened
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  322. # [15:37] <foolip> does any implementation actually animate the transition?
  323. # [15:38] <annevk> Well, maybe not, what matters is that the moment we change various observable things and dispatch the event, the state exposed to script is "fullscreen"
  324. # [15:38] <annevk> I guess it doesn't actually have to be fullscreen at that point...
  325. # [15:38] <foolip> right
  326. # [15:39] <foolip> It seems to me that the spec saying "you can animate here" doesn't help much
  327. # [15:39] <foolip> if one wants to animate it ought to be possible without being observable to scripts
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  329. # [15:39] <foolip> ... I think
  330. # [15:40] <annevk> I removed a redundant animate bit https://github.com/whatwg/fullscreen/commit/a567c6c723797cbc5116d558af39af42a59ea9e1
  331. # [15:40] <foolip> ok, the one in exitFullscreen() isn't redundant then?
  332. # [15:41] <annevk> Well, the resizing mentioned in the tasks is important
  333. # [15:41] * annevk looks
  334. # [15:41] <annevk> foolip: yeah, that should go as well
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  336. # [15:42] <foolip> I think that the basic model could be something like this:
  337. # [15:42] <foolip> requestFullscreen() sets some script-invisible state, queues a (micro?)task and immediately returns
  338. # [15:43] <foolip> when that task runs, all the checks are run on that invisible state, and if they pass, resizing begins
  339. # [15:43] <foolip> once resize is complete, a task is made to run before the next animation frame, which sets the script-visible state and dispatches all the events
  340. # [15:44] <foolip> similar for exitFullscreen(), I haven't been able to understand why that currently cues multiple tasks TBH
  341. # [15:45] <annevk> The reason we have a task per document is that documents can be cross-origin and we don't want to create synchronous access hazards
  342. # [15:45] <foolip> ah yes
  343. # [15:45] <foolip> so I guess each document could await the next frame independently
  344. # [15:46] <foolip> the hazard then is that the order is not dependable and yet observable for same-origin frames
  345. # [15:47] <annevk> We could define those to be in the same task I suppose... I wonder what happens for a nesting of origins A -> O -> A
  346. # [15:47] <foolip> I've tried to understand how animation frames are work across frames but failed
  347. # [15:48] <foolip> another problem that'll come up is the scheduling of the fullscreenerror event
  348. # [15:48] <foolip> it ought to also be synchronized with animation frames since otherwise the order of events could change I think
  349. # [15:50] <annevk> I don't quite get the purpose of the script-invisible state above
  350. # [15:50] <foolip> it's the pending element
  351. # [15:50] <annevk> Okay
  352. # [15:50] <annevk> So you propose two tasks, but inbetween those tasks anything could still happen
  353. # [15:52] <foolip> hmm, between the task that does the checking + starts resize and the task that fires the events after resize?
  354. # [15:52] <annevk> Yes
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  356. # [15:52] <foolip> So what Blink actually does is to request the resize synchronously in requestFullscreen()
  357. # [15:52] <foolip> but it also updates the fullscreen element stack there, which is how I noticed all of this
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  359. # [15:53] <foolip> that's observable immediately by scripts :/
  360. # [15:53] <foolip> if something could be made to work where the resize is initiated synchronously and there's only a single task once the resize is done, that'd be pretty close to what's implemented
  361. # [15:54] <foolip> it's possibly a smaller change to the spec as well, since some checks are currently sync
  362. # [15:54] <annevk> Why can't the task that does the resizing not also manipulate the stack? That was a bit unclear to me
  363. # [15:55] <foolip> there is no such task, not in the same sense at least
  364. # [15:55] <foolip> Blink just tells Chromium to go fullscreen, some things happen out-of-process and then Blink is told that it's been resized
  365. # [15:56] <foolip> there's no task that runs and waits for the resize to complete or anything like that
  366. # [15:57] <annevk> Okay, so you want to go fullscreen asynchronously, and then queue a task once that is done?
  367. # [15:57] <annevk> Perhaps the specification should separate putting the top-level browsing context fullscreen from the rest?
  368. # [15:57] <foolip> queue a task that runs immediately before the next animation frame, yes
  369. # [15:58] <foolip> it already has the top-level document flag, do you mean something additional?
  370. # [15:59] <annevk> Yeah, it seems perhaps that bit should happen earlier in an asynchronous algorithm
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  372. # [15:59] <annevk> The resizing of the viewport
  373. # [15:59] <annevk> Then the per document/element resizing happen can happen afterwards
  374. # [16:00] <foolip> yeah, a "wait for the viewport to match the dimensions of the screen" step seems like it should be somewhere after "Return, and run the remaining steps asynchronously." and followed by the queuing of a task that's synchronized with animation frames
  375. # [16:01] <foolip> in the case of nested fullscreen, that condition would already be true without any waiting, so maybe not much special casing is needed
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  377. # [16:01] <annevk> Yeah, this is only for the top-level browsing context, same for exitFullscreen()
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  379. # [16:02] <annevk> Given we do that, does my model then make sense?
  380. # [16:04] <foolip> It sounds like we're on the same page, but can you outline again the steps of requestFullscreen() and exitFullscreen() in your model?
  381. # [16:04] <foolip> or just make the spec change and I can read that
  382. # [16:05] <annevk> foolip: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26366#c6
  383. # [16:05] <annevk> so 1) sets pending element and does some checks sync) 2) resizes async 3) queues a task once resize is complete to do various bits
  384. # [16:06] <foolip> yes, that sounds right
  385. # [16:06] <foolip> and some of the checks that now involve the fullscreen element stack would also have to look at the pending element, unless there's always an early return for that case
  386. # [16:08] <foolip> I believe you'll have the choice of either making the first or the last requested element be the one that wins, not sure if it matters which it is
  387. # [16:08] <annevk> Ah yeah, we could either terminate early or just overwrite and not queue new tasks
  388. # [16:09] <foolip> right
  389. # [16:09] <foolip> I think I don't have an opinion, and there's likely no compat situation for that to care about
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  391. # [16:09] <annevk> I guess it would be nicer to overwrite in case there's various buttons and the user changes his mind... Not sure if that'd go fast enough though
  392. # [16:10] <foolip> the more likely scenario is that there are multiple frameworks competing I think
  393. # [16:10] <foolip> in which case success is not a possible outcome
  394. # [16:10] <annevk> Early fail might be better than, plus encouraging a message to the console
  395. # [16:11] <foolip> so what about requestFullscreen() and exitFullscreen() in the same script?
  396. # [16:12] <foolip> does exitFullscreen() clear the pending element, so that when the resize is done, one exits immediately?
  397. # [16:12] <foolip> the only way to not have to deal with this is to have two tasks I think
  398. # [16:12] <foolip> but that's less nice in other ways
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  400. # [16:13] <foolip> or is the exitFullscreen() just ignored? that'd be easy to implement at least...
  401. # [16:13] <annevk> Ignoring exitFullscreen() as long as there's an async operation ongoing?
  402. # [16:14] <annevk> I don't think that works as that would be bad for navigation
  403. # [16:14] <foolip> oh, yeah
  404. # [16:14] <annevk> I think exitFullscreen() should detect if an asynchronous operation is ongoing, and if so, reverse it
  405. # [16:14] <foolip> and have no events fired at all?
  406. # [16:15] <annevk> Yeah I guess
  407. # [16:15] <annevk> Nothing really happened except perhaps some flickering depending on timing of the UA
  408. # [16:15] <foolip> hmm... I don't know if it's possible to guarantee that scripts won't see the intermediate state
  409. # [16:16] <foolip> it'd be pretty easy to allow the request to finish and then immediately exit, though
  410. # [16:16] <annevk> Okay, perhaps exit should always dispatch events
  411. # [16:16] <annevk> But early exit cancels the requestFullscreen events
  412. # [16:17] <foolip> are you thinking about an "exit fullscreen pending" flag to do this?
  413. # [16:18] <annevk> request sets pending, exit simply unsets pending
  414. # [16:18] <annevk> then once the task from request runs, pending is unset which terminates the task
  415. # [16:19] <foolip> yes, ok, I think this could work
  416. # [16:19] <foolip> will have to look closely at the spec text to know for sure
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  418. # [16:20] <annevk> we could also make exitFullscreen a no-op while pending is set but have the navigate variant always exit, not sure what is nicer
  419. # [16:20] <annevk> yeah, might require another day of iterating and some more review
  420. # [16:20] <annevk> not easy
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  422. # [16:21] <foolip> not entirely, no
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  424. # [16:21] <foolip> some feedback from roc and cpearce would be nice too, Gecko might have completely different issues around resizing
  425. # [16:22] <foolip> it's about time implementations and the spec started to agreeing on the details here :)
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  428. # [16:47] <annevk> On something like Firefox OS you might not have these constraints of having to do some OS-level resize
  429. # [16:49] <SimonSapin> annevk: Having the IPv4-in-URLs discussion in two places is not great. (Even though it’s my fault for filing both.) Let’s switch to just one, which do you prefer?
  430. # [16:50] <annevk> SimonSapin: Bugzilla
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  432. # [17:04] <annevk> foolip: the synchronous checks from requestFullscreen are broken as they potentially cross origin boundaries
  433. # [17:04] * annevk cries a little bit
  434. # [17:06] <foolip> annevk: oops, I guess you'll need to fix that :)
  435. # [17:07] <annevk> foolip: what does Chrome do at the moment? Just go fullscreen?
  436. # [17:07] <foolip> if the checks need to enter a cross-origin iframe?
  437. # [17:08] <annevk> yeah
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  439. # [17:08] <foolip> it just uses does the checks as per spec, with a cute little assert that I think will break without out-of-process iframes
  440. # [17:09] <foolip> so this looks like something that needs to be resolved sooner or later
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  442. # [17:09] <foolip> s/without/with/
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  458. # [17:50] <annevk> foolip: to prevent race conditions you need a global request fullscreen in process flag
  459. # [17:51] <annevk> not even sure if that works :-(
  460. # [17:51] <annevk> not the easiest day after vacation
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  475. # [18:07] <annevk> foolip: I posted this thing as a question to the WHATWG list for now
  476. # [18:09] <gsnedders> Hixie: gimme your parser and tell me what I need to build it and how to run it
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  492. # [18:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: parser.log is both pretty useless and includes what phase we're in twice
  493. # [18:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: also totally untested
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  498. # [18:51] <gsnedders> jgraham: in other news, why does it take two months to be able to push a typo fix in a string to master? code review requirement utterly fails if nothing ever reaches master…
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  500. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, feel free to r? me for things that simple :)
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  502. # [18:53] <jgraham> gsnedders: It's not that useless since I wrote it to find a bug that I then fixed. It's not intended to be public-facing code so I don't see why you care about test coverage
  503. # [18:54] <jgraham> I agree that the review situation isn't working out
  504. # [18:54] <gsnedders> jgraham: it also has a very significant effect on perf under PyPy
  505. # [18:55] <jgraham> gsnedders: Even when not in use?
  506. # [18:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's all the metaclass magic and indirection that's the cost, so yes
  507. # [18:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: i.e., any change of parsing phase is a hash table lookup when it could be a direct reference
  508. # [18:57] <jgraham> gsnedders: It isn't clear to my where the cost comes from since it sets the metaclass to "type"
  509. # [18:57] <gsnedders> jgraham: it's the fact we're doing self.phases["text"] everywhere instead of TextPhase
  510. # [18:58] <jgraham> Oh
  511. # [18:58] <jgraham> It strikes me that PyPy should be able to optimise constant dicts
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  516. # [18:59] <jgraham> Can it optimise named tuples?
  517. # [18:59] <gsnedders> PyPy's view is that dicts are hashtables and should be treated as hashtables. You don't expect magic from C++ hashtables, so don't expect magic there. classes on the other hand are quicker.
  518. # [19:00] <jgraham> If you took that view writing a js engine you would have one slow js engine
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  520. # [19:00] <gsnedders> but JS doesn't have any separate object type
  521. # [19:00] <gsnedders> or class type
  522. # [19:00] <gsnedders> or what have you
  523. # [19:00] <gsnedders> attribute accesses are fast in PyPy
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  525. # [19:01] <jgraham> Saying "we aren't going to optimise a very common case that we could optimise" still doesn't seem like a reasonable way to end up with a fast implementation
  526. # [19:01] <gsnedders> Are you sure parser.log is private? It's exposed in parse.py, which I thought in theory just used public APIs…
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  528. # [19:01] <gsnedders> jgraham: go argue in #pypy if you care
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  531. # [19:02] <jgraham> What gave to the idea that parse.py is only public apis?
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  533. # [19:02] <gsnedders> well it seems like an example application to me
  534. # [19:03] <jgraham> It's only useful to debug the implementation, it's not aimed at end users at all
  535. # [19:03] <jgraham> No, it's a debugging tool
  536. # [19:03] <gsnedders> that's not at all clear
  537. # [19:04] <jgraham> It's certainly not "clear" it's an example application
  538. # [19:05] <jgraham> It's not in the documentation or an examples/ directory
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  543. # [19:09] <gsnedders> jgraham: then why do we ship it with releases?
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  546. # [19:11] <gsnedders> jgraham: I'd assume anything bundled with the release at the top level is there for example reasons
  547. # [19:14] <jgraham> That seems like a properly strange assumption. It doesn't get installed anywhere other than the library directory
  548. # [19:15] <jgraham> Anyway, this conversation is not going to get us anywhere
  549. # [19:15] <jgraham> What are you trying to achieve?
  550. # [19:19] <gsnedders> I was planning on adding tests and totally refactoring how HTMLParser.__init__(debug=True/False) works.
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  552. # [19:20] <jgraham> I think adding tests is harmful
  553. # [19:20] <jgraham> For small values of "harm"
  554. # [19:21] <gsnedders> so you want me to totally redesign how it works without testing it? ;P
  555. # [19:21] <jgraham> Sure
  556. # [19:21] <jgraham> I mean I'm happy for you to totally redesign how it works and produce any output you like that has a broadly comparable feature set
  557. # [19:22] <jgraham> If you want to do something more dramatic e.g. remove it entirely, we should talk more
  558. # [19:22] <jgraham> I don't think that adding yet more code in the form of tests is worthwhile; I think it will add to the maintainace burden rather than reduce it
  559. # [19:23] <gsnedders> I think it's useful. I think it should be there. I'm not entirely convinced it should be private.
  560. # [19:23] <gsnedders> Having a private argument on a function seems… dubious API design, though.
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  562. # [19:25] <jgraham> It could be a global variable
  563. # [19:25] <gsnedders> I'd like at least one test for it. If we're having it in parse.py, I'd rather it be tested. AFAIK.
  564. # [19:26] <gsnedders> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/html5lib/0.9-2 makes it look like I'm not the only person believing it an example.
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  566. # [19:30] <jgraham> Well I'm not exactly going to stop you writing a test for it. But I still don't think the tradeoffs are likely to make sense
  567. # [19:30] <gsnedders> I've already written one. It's not exactly hard to do.
  568. # [19:30] <jgraham> And if you want to move parse.py to a debug directory or something, feel free to do so
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  572. # [19:36] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: but you're a reviewer on html5lib-tests and haven't even reviewed all my open PRs there!
  573. # [19:37] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, there's too much on my critic dashboard to make it useful for me, so I only review things I'm pinged about :)
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  660. # [22:41] <caitp> I still think it's terrible that you can't cause a form control to suffer from bad input by programmatically changing its value, this really sucks for testability =(
  661. # [22:43] <Hixie> isn't there a testing api
  662. # [22:43] <Hixie> web driver or some such
  663. # [22:43] <caitp> webdriver has a huge suite of problems along with it
  664. # [22:49] <caitp> when the choices are "enable special privileges in the browser" or "use the flake-maker", things are pretty unfortunate
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  700. # Session Close: Tue Jul 29 00:00:00 2014

The end :)