/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-07-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 29 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> zcorpan: The other thread was titled "[cssom-view] Allowing scrollIntoView() to only scroll the nearest scroll container"
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  45. # [01:54] <Hixie> how are we doing in terms of dropping mutation events?
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  47. # [02:00] <jgraham> Heh
  48. # [02:01] <roc> where are proposals for new input-related DOM events specced these days?
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  50. # [02:03] <Hixie> roc: the premise of your question is flawed, sadly
  51. # [02:03] <Hixie> oh wait, you mean new ones
  52. # [02:03] <Hixie> not the implemented ones
  53. # [02:03] <roc> elucidate?
  54. # [02:03] <roc> yes
  55. # [02:03] <Hixie> there's various drafts for various proposals, afaik
  56. # [02:04] <jgraham> Yeah that all fragmented. There's a pointer-events wg although I don't know if they still do stuff
  57. # [02:04] <jgraham> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/
  58. # [02:04] <Hixie> i've been mostly ignoring new proposals on the basis that without a spec for 'keydown' and 'mouseup' and so on, there's not much point looking at making new events
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  61. # [02:06] <roc> well, I don't think that's true. There is still value in speccing new events rather than having people go off and do their own things.
  62. # [02:07] <Hixie> i mean "making new events" in the sense of implementing new ones, let alone speccing them
  63. # [02:08] <jgraham> Hixie: [Un]fortunately people violently disagree with you on that
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  65. # [02:09] <Hixie> yeah, clearly :-)
  66. # [02:09] <jgraham> Hence the 17 different efforts to specify touch events
  67. # [02:10] <jgraham> OTOH if we want the web to do well on touch-based devices, saying "oh we can't figure out touch because we haven't managed to figure out keyboards in the last 20 years" isn't going to cut it
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  69. # [02:13] <Hixie> i'm saying "let's describe what browsers have to implement for keyboard, mouse, and touch events, since those have already shipped, then let's design an input event system that is media-independent so we don't have to do this again in two years"
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  75. # [02:18] <tantek> keyboard events is a great way to get embroiled in accessibility and internationalization issue processing. at least that was my experience with the CSS "key-equivalent" property
  76. # [02:19] <Hixie> the key (oops) is to scope your work to exclusively be "specify what needs to be implemented to be interoperable"
  77. # [02:19] <Hixie> then there's no bikeshedding possible
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  82. # [02:20] <tantek> interoperable across which devices with which set of keys or buttons? which year of mobile devices with which buttons do you wish to spec?
  83. # [02:21] <tantek> or which year of which laptop(s) or qwertyish handhelds?
  84. # [02:21] <tantek> good times.
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  86. # [02:21] <tantek> in which countries?
  87. # [02:23] <jgraham> Since we can't get specific input systems right, the chance of abstracting over all existing and possible future input systems and producing something useful seems remote
  88. # [02:24] <tantek> enjoy: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=japanese+handheld+keyboards
  89. # [02:25] <jgraham> It's unfortunate that we have always had to be reactive, but not that surprising
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  130. # [04:28] <SamB> Hixie: I don't see how not having the old events specced makes having what new events may come into use specced any less useful?
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  255. # [08:40] <annevk> Hixie: not much progress on mutation events so far
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  266. # [09:43] <annevk> SimonSapin: sad that your query got no replies, but we do need to address that question somehow
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  275. # [10:09] <foolip> annevk: did you get the answers you needed in the "Fullscreen API and out-of-process <iframe>" thread?
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  277. # [10:09] <annevk> foolip: yeah I guess, still a bit unsure how to spec it
  278. # [10:10] <foolip> is it specifically the racy requestFullscreen problem, or something more general I'm not seeing?
  279. # [10:11] <annevk> foolip: something like requestFullscreen() does a request to resize the browser window; that request either returns it failed, returns it's already done, or returns it succeeds (maybe returns it's in progress for someone else?)
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  281. # [10:11] <annevk> I was mostly just wondering what the best way was to update state and such
  282. # [10:11] <foolip> you mean structure it so that the internal resize request can fail, and deal with that by firing fullscreenerror?
  283. # [10:12] <annevk> yeah, that'd be an error I guess
  284. # [10:12] <annevk> not sure about the other conditions
  285. # [10:13] <foolip> well it's actually not the resize that would fail, but another element would already be in fullscreen when we're notified of success
  286. # [10:13] <annevk> what I was also worried is about resizing has completed, but state has not changed and then something happens
  287. # [10:13] <annevk> am*
  288. # [10:14] <foolip> hmm
  289. # [10:14] <foolip> it would be nice to treat two racy requests by imposing an arbitrary order on them, determined by IPC or whatever
  290. # [10:14] <annevk> the "pending element" thing is sorta global in a way too
  291. # [10:15] <foolip> then make them do the same thing that this order of requests would do with plenty of time in between them
  292. # [10:15] <annevk> well the request to resize would be that I guess
  293. # [10:15] <foolip> the pending element is per-document, no more global than that, surely?
  294. # [10:16] <annevk> if A and B are same-origin and invoke requestFullscreen right after each other, what happens?
  295. # [10:16] <foolip> are they sibling or parent-child?
  296. # [10:17] <annevk> I guess the first resizes the window, the second is notified the window is already changed, then the first notifies state change, then the second
  297. # [10:17] <annevk> parent-child
  298. # [10:17] <annevk> I also realized we cannot really make the checks asynchronous, that'd be racy
  299. # [10:17] <foolip> I don't think the answer ought to be different than for cross-origin A and B, even if it's possible to implement differently
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  302. # [10:20] <foolip> you mean the fail-checks that will fire fullscreenerror?
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  305. # [10:33] <SimonSapin> annevk: about IPv4 address syntax? I’ll try to find Mozilla people who work on related stuff and ask them
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  319. # [11:16] <annevk> foolip: yeah
  320. # [11:17] <annevk> foolip: say B invokes requestFullscreen and A removes B's container
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  329. # [11:55] <foolip> annevk: not knowing how to spec it, I'd say it should either enter fullscreen sucessfully and then exit again, or fail to enter fullscreen, depending on which event is considered first
  330. # [11:55] <foolip> but... sigh
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  334. # [11:57] <annevk> yes, sigh :-)
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  356. # [12:55] <jgraham> annevk: The servo people are looking at HTTP at the moment because the Rust HTTP ecosystem is very immature and they have been using a library that doesn't really work
  357. # [12:56] <jgraham> So they are likely very interested in a HTTP spec that you could write an implementation from and actually have it work with real websites
  358. # [12:56] <annevk> Yeah, no doubt. I don't have the bandwidth
  359. # [12:57] <Ms2ger> The other options is to make Manishearth write the spec
  360. # [12:57] <Ms2ger> option*
  361. # [12:57] <annevk> I'm keeping notes on the WHATWG Wiki
  362. # [12:57] <annevk> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTTP Not very elaborate so far though
  363. # [12:57] <jgraham> annevk: I'm not saying "you have to write the spec"
  364. # [12:58] <jgraham> I'm saying "they have an interest in this work"
  365. # [12:58] <JakeA> annevk: If WorkerGlobalScope is [Exposed=Worker] and `interface ServiceWorkerGlobalScope : WorkerGlobalScope {` and FormData `Exposed=(Window,Worker)`, doesn't that mean FormData is exposed in ServiceWorkerGlobalScope?
  366. # [12:58] <jgraham> Which might indeed by a way of finding someone else who can justify writing the spec
  367. # [12:58] <annevk> JakeA: you would need [Global=Worker] but that also makes XMLHttpRequest exposed
  368. # [12:59] <annevk> JakeA: which I thought was one of the things we didn't want? And we did not want FileReaderSync which would also have Exposed=Worker
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  370. # [12:59] <annevk> jgraham: if you know the relevant people you could point them to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2014JulSep/1542.html
  371. # [13:00] <JakeA> annevk: I don't have a problem with XMLHttpRequest, but yeah, FileReaderSync isn't great
  372. # [13:00] <annevk> JakeA: if you have Global=Worker all those *Sync APIs would be available in service workers too
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  374. # [13:01] <annevk> JakeA: if you don't, we'll need to add Exposed=ServiceWorker to some APIs
  375. # [13:01] <Ms2ger> annevk, I'm not drowning him in IETF :)
  376. # [13:02] <annevk> JakeA: we could potentially only use Worker for sane interfaces, and introduce SyncWorker or some such as alias for dedicated worker / shared worker that APIs such as FileReaderSync can use
  377. # [13:02] <JakeA> annevk: hmm or move the sync APIs… yeah, what you said
  378. # [13:03] <Ms2ger> Why don't you want those *Sync interfaces?
  379. # [13:03] <annevk> JakeA: if you have a plan email public-script-coord@w3.org
  380. # [13:03] <annevk> Ms2ger: service workers can't be blocking
  381. # [13:03] <JakeA> Ms2ger: Pretty much the same reason they're not great in a sharedworker. You're blocking
  382. # [13:03] <Ms2ger> I see
  383. # [13:03] <JakeA> actually, they're not great in any worker
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  385. # [13:09] <annevk> JakeA: now would be the time to propose such a change, need to get Hixie on board; everyone needs to update syntax usage of [Exposed] a bit anyway
  386. # [13:09] <annevk> JakeA: however, we'll still need to decide what gets to use Worker and what gets to use SyncWorker or some such
  387. # [13:09] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, I'm struggling to find the docs on [Exposed]
  388. # [13:10] <JakeA> SyncWorker should be considered lagacy really
  389. # [13:10] <annevk> JakeA: http://heycam.github.io/webidl/ defines it
  390. # [13:10] <JakeA> heh, or even legacy
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  392. # [13:10] <JakeA> cheers
  393. # [13:10] <annevk> JakeA: HTML defines Global=Window, Global=Worker, Global=DedicatedWorker, Global=SharedWorker
  394. # [13:11] <annevk> JakeA: basically we should ask Hixie to also define Sync/LegacyWorker as synonym for DedicatedWorker/SharedWorker
  395. # [13:11] <annevk> JakeA: and then go through all APIs and ensure they are annotated in the correct way
  396. # [13:12] <annevk> JakeA: and SW would define [Global=(Worker,ServiceWorker)] on its global
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  398. # [13:15] <JakeA> annevk: why [Global=(Worker,ServiceWorker)] rather than [Global=(ServiceWorker)]?
  399. # [13:15] <annevk> JakeA: I thought you wanted FormData to be exposed as is, and not require updating it to say Exposed=(Window,Worker,ServiceWorker)
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  402. # [13:22] <JakeA> annevk: ok, starting to get my head around how [Global]
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  404. # [13:23] <JakeA> …works
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  410. # [13:41] <annevk> [Global] indicates the name of the global, [Exposed] indicates what is exposed on it
  411. # [13:42] <annevk> [Global] also indicates the class is a global
  412. # [13:53] <annevk> foolip: so I tried to figure out how this would work in JS. In JS, you'd request the resize. Get an event when that's done (stable state) and from there you'd change state and potentially dispatch another event to tell other observers.
  413. # [13:53] <annevk> foolip: the only problem is communicating with the cross-origin bits.
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  435. # [14:58] <foolip> annevk: I read your email as well
  436. # [14:59] <foolip> is there anything I can do to help figure this out? I'm not coming up with any brilliant solutions TBH
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  438. # [15:03] <annevk> I guess I need to find out what invariants we are trying to preserve
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  440. # [15:04] <annevk> E.g. if you have A -> B -> A'. Are A and A' synchronous?
  441. # [15:04] <foolip> you mean if it's possible to do the checks synchronously, or if events should fire in the same task, or something else?
  442. # [15:05] <annevk> If A and A' were same-origin, should they be updated in the same animation frame, yes
  443. # [15:05] <foolip> didn't someone comment that animation frames were synchronized across frames already?
  444. # [15:06] <annevk> They are, but not across origins...
  445. # [15:06] <annevk> And A' cannot reach A I think due to B, though I'm not a 100% sure
  446. # [15:07] <foolip> I'm not sure about that either
  447. # [15:08] <foolip> can A and A' get each others windows or documents in some way? if not, then it doesn't matter
  448. # [15:08] <annevk> It matters a bit for how we phrase things in the specification I guess
  449. # [15:09] <foolip> for the sake of sanity, it's probably best to assume that no two iframes are in the same process, even if they're same-origin
  450. # [15:10] <annevk> So the case I'm concerned with is that a descendant puts something in the animation frame queue of its parent, but then the parent navigates or removes the <iframe> of the descendant
  451. # [15:10] <foolip> I suppose the question is if an API designed around that will have observable racy behavior for same-origin iframes
  452. # [15:10] <annevk> I guess before you update state in an animation frame, you need to make sure your document is still "sane"
  453. # [15:11] <foolip> right...
  454. # [15:11] <foolip> when one believes that a document is in fullscreen, queue the task that is synchronized with animation frames
  455. # [15:12] <foolip> when we get to that task, we will know if the frame we're about to paint is actually a fullscreen frame or not
  456. # [15:12] <foolip> I suppose one could base some decisions on that, and at least let each individual frame have a consistent view of things
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  458. # [15:13] <annevk> If you have A -> B -> C
  459. # [15:13] <annevk> B invokes requestFullscreen(), C invokes exitFullscreen()
  460. # [15:14] <annevk> Is it possible that A gets messages about updating its state to exit fullscreen before it updates to fullscreen, whereas the others get it in a different order?
  461. # [15:15] <foolip> if C invokes exitFullscreen() before B has successfully entered fullscreen, it won't do anything, right?
  462. # [15:16] <annevk> Well B could have entered fullscreen, but that does not say anything about A per se
  463. # [15:16] <annevk> Well, unless the IPC queue is global
  464. # [15:16] <foolip> if B has successfully entered fullscreen, then A will have an iframe on the fullscreen element stack and can't enter fullscreen
  465. # [15:16] <annevk> And the IPC queue is ordered
  466. # [15:17] <foolip> the races will be between requests to enter I think, not between enter and exit
  467. # [15:17] <beverloo> JakeA, ping
  468. # [15:17] <annevk> foolip: B can have entered fullscreen, but A does not need to have the message processed that updates its fullscreen element stack
  469. # [15:17] <JakeA> beverloo: pong!
  470. # [15:18] <annevk> foolip: the "worry" was that the message from C could arrive in A before B's message arrives
  471. # [15:18] <foolip> ah yes
  472. # [15:18] <annevk> But assuming a global ordered non-racy IPC queue...
  473. # [15:18] <foolip> well it's ordered for sure, but non-racy in what sense?
  474. # [15:19] <foolip> if two frames wait for Date.now() to be a whole minute or something and then post events, then those two events aren't in a predictable order
  475. # [15:20] <foolip> I guess that's not what you mean thouhg
  476. # [15:21] <foolip> maybe something can be gained from the fact that a request must come from a trusted input event
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  478. # [15:22] <foolip> those come from the top-level process after all, so any requests must happen while it's being processed
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  480. # [15:22] <foolip> although I'm pretty clueless about input event handling
  481. # [15:22] <annevk> So B invokes requestFullscreen and after some time posts messages to A and C. Then after C gets its message it can invoke exitFullscreen() and post messages to B and A.
  482. # [15:23] <annevk> Can A get C's before B's?
  483. # [15:23] <annevk> Yeah, that helps masking the problem
  484. # [15:25] <foolip> I think no, if B first posts a message to A and after that posts a message to C, nothing that C does in that message can arrive at A before B's message
  485. # [15:25] <foolip> if that's not true assumption, then sanity is nowhere to be found I think
  486. # [15:26] <annevk> I guess we should be okay then... Apart from working out how to synchronize with animation frames
  487. # [15:27] * Quits: danbri (~danbri@31.185.159.80) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  488. # [15:27] <foolip> Sounds promising
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  490. # [15:28] <foolip> I can dig up the order of things in Blink's event synchronizing code if needed
  491. # [15:28] <foolip> the most basic thing is that all events for an animation frame are fired before the requestAnimationFrame callback, but you could probably guess that much
  492. # [15:29] <foolip> I'd be shocked if it's actually spec'd though
  493. # [15:31] <jgraham> It is kind of unfortunate that no one apart from bz seems to have held the web-perf people to account
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  495. # [15:32] <foolip> jgraham: what's that about?
  496. # [15:33] <jgraham> foolip: What's what about?
  497. # [15:33] <Ms2ger> webperf
  498. # [15:33] <jgraham> The web-perf people did rAF and various other specs
  499. # [15:34] <jgraham> But is lacking people who are sufficiently aware of the quality requirements for modern web specs
  500. # [15:34] <jgraham> So I am unsurprised that you would be shocked if they had spec something
  501. # [15:34] <jgraham> *speced
  502. # [15:37] <annevk> I wonder what /*sealed*/ means in HTML
  503. # [15:37] <Ms2ger> Nothing
  504. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> It's just a reminded to himself that you can't inherit from global objects
  505. # [15:39] <annevk> Document has it too
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  507. # [15:42] <Ms2ger> Huh
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  509. # [15:43] <beverloo> annevk, hi
  510. # [15:43] <annevk> hey
  511. # [15:43] <beverloo> so, web notifications and service workers
  512. # [15:43] <beverloo> jake found this document: https://gist.github.com/jungkees/3154398b8deee7c70139
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  514. # [15:44] <JakeA> annevk: the latter half on events is relevant
  515. # [15:44] <beverloo> it answers the event question indeed, and suggest methods to accept an optional service worker argument
  516. # [15:45] <beverloo> since the web notification api would define a property in the init dictionary instead, we could require it to be a ServiceWorker instance
  517. # [15:45] <JakeA> beverloo: it should be the ServiceWorkerRegistration instance, now we have those
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  519. # [15:46] <JakeA> (we didn't when the doc was first created)
  520. # [15:46] <annevk> that seems a bit nicer than a scope
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  524. # [15:49] <annevk> beverloo: the event name should be notificationclick
  525. # [15:49] <JakeA> The alternative is new serviceWorkerRegistration.Notifiation(), but feels silly to duplicate
  526. # [15:49] <beverloo> annevk, yes
  527. # [15:49] <annevk> (not activate as per email)
  528. # [15:49] <beverloo> agreed :)
  529. # [15:50] <Ms2ger> notificationDOMActivate
  530. # [15:50] <annevk> if you created the Notification object in the service worker
  531. # [15:50] <annevk> what happens then?
  532. # [15:50] <annevk> should it automatically set its serviceWorker member?
  533. # [15:50] <annevk> are events dispatched to both places?
  534. # [15:50] <beverloo> given that the lifetime of a service worker cannot be relied upon, we'd default to serviceWorker=[active ServiceWorkerRegistration]
  535. # [15:51] <beverloo> it does raise questions for |onerror| though
  536. # [15:51] <annevk> is ServiceWorkerRegistration available inside the service worker global environment?
  537. # [15:52] <JakeA> annevk: it could be. Not an unreasonable request.
  538. # [15:52] <JakeA> annevk: events should only be dispatched to one
  539. # [15:52] <annevk> For the API it does not matter much, as long as there's some abstract concept I can associate with
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  541. # [15:52] <annevk> JakeA: to either the SW or the object?
  542. # [15:53] <JakeA> annevk: a running serviceworker knows its registration, that's not a problem
  543. # [15:53] <annevk> JakeA: currently events are dispatched to all associated objects
  544. # [15:53] <annevk> I guess I could see an argument for only dispatching events to an SW if one was provided at registration time or if it was created in an SW
  545. # [15:53] <JakeA> annevk: ok, it should be one or the other. If the notification has an associated serviceworker, it should only fire the event in the serviceworker
  546. # [15:53] <JakeA> yep
  547. # [15:53] <annevk> However, that'd argue for exposing all events in the SW, not just two
  548. # [15:54] <JakeA> beverloo: what's the issue with firing all events within the sw?
  549. # [15:55] <beverloo> there's a hypothetical issue with onnotificationshow -- if we'd ever allow delayed notifications it could be used to set precise timers
  550. # [15:55] <annevk> If someone could summarize this on the list that'd be great. I think this works, still trying to sort out some other spec issues, so much to do :/
  551. # [15:55] <annevk> Unless there's more?
  552. # [15:55] <beverloo> but that's purely hypothetical at this point. there's no issues with onnotificationerror as far as I'm aware
  553. # [15:56] <annevk> Ooh, we probably don't want to boot up the SW for show either
  554. # [15:56] <JakeA> annevk: is that a security issue?
  555. # [15:57] <annevk> Just wasteful I guess
  556. # [15:57] <JakeA> annevk: if people don't addEventListener for it, we don't have to wake it up. But I guess we'll be talking about that later :)
  557. # [15:57] <annevk> But maybe we should do it, yes
  558. # [15:57] <annevk> You'll go into history as the guy who abused the event system beyond repair
  559. # [15:59] <JakeA> can always set which events you want as part of the install event, but I'd rather not
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  569. # [16:23] <annevk> beverloo: JakeA: each event would implement NotificationEvent I take it which has a pointer to a Notification object?
  570. # [16:24] <JakeA> annevk: yep
  571. # [16:24] <annevk> could reuse CustomEvent event, but bit weird
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  573. # [16:35] <JakeA> annevk: are there any other *Sync APIs aside from filesystem?
  574. # [16:35] <JakeA> I notice the IDB ones have been burned to the ground
  575. # [16:35] <annevk> JakeA: I thought IDB was implemented in Firefox
  576. # [16:36] <annevk> JakeA: XMLHttpRequest has a sync API
  577. # [16:36] <annevk> JakeA: we could disable the sync part of XMLHttpRequest in service workers, or we could not expose XMLHttpRequest at all...
  578. # [16:36] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  579. # [16:37] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, I'm happy with disabling the sync part. Losing all of xhr could mean already-existing libraries can't be used in importScripts. (but I can't find any useful worker-compatible scripts that use XHR)
  580. # [16:38] <annevk> Well, if existing libraries use it synchronously that'd break too
  581. # [16:38] <JakeA> true
  582. # [16:40] <Ms2ger> Would you expose importScripts?
  583. # [16:40] <annevk> Ms2ger: only during install or some such... not entirely sure how that is going to be monkey patched up the chain
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  585. # [16:56] <JakeA> yeah
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  611. # [17:38] <Manishearth> Ms2ger: which spec? HTTP?
  612. # [17:38] <Manishearth> I can ... co-write, maybe.
  613. # [17:39] <Manishearth> Write a whole spec? I'll end up with security bugs in the spec itself. No thanks, don't want to be the next Heartbleed. :P
  614. # [17:41] <Manishearth> Ah, HTTP header parsing errors. Hmm
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  624. # [17:55] <annevk> That is where all the security errors would be, mind you ;-)
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  626. # [18:00] <jgraham> Manishearth: The possibility of writing security bugs into the spec is a terrible reason not to write the spec. Typically more people read the spec than particular implementations, and having one spec that defines how to handle all possible inputs is a huge net good for reducing security errors
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  628. # [18:03] <Manishearth> jgraham: Yeah, but neither am I (a) experienced with spec writing, nor (b) *that* knowledgeable about HTTP headers -- The security bugs was a joke, but seriously speaking I don't think I'd be able to do this alone
  629. # [18:06] <jgraham> Manishearth: Sure, I wouldn't expect you to
  630. # [18:07] <Manishearth> I would love to be part of a joint effort :)
  631. # [18:07] <annevk> Manishearth: let mnot know
  632. # [18:07] <jgraham> Manishearth: Usually the way these things work is N people express an interest in editing. Then between N and N-1 of them find out that they don't have the time or the inclination, so 0 or 1 people do 100% of the writing
  633. # [18:07] <Manishearth> I don't have the time, but I ought to be able to make time.
  634. # [18:07] <jgraham> (other people still contribute feedback ofc)
  635. # [18:08] <astearns> shh, jgraham - don't scare him off
  636. # [18:08] <Manishearth> haha
  637. # [18:08] <Manishearth> I have a tendency of overloading myself. Already overloaded, and today I decided to TA a course. Blah.
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  647. # [18:29] <Hixie> what would a "Sync" worker be?
  648. # [18:30] <Manishearth> Hixie: THat exists?
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  650. # [18:30] <Hixie> i dunno, some people were talking about it earlier
  651. # [18:30] <Hixie> i didn't follow the conversation
  652. # [18:30] <Ms2ger> Hixie, dedicated worker
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  654. # [18:30] <Hixie> how is a dedicated worker "sync"?
  655. # [18:30] <Manishearth> a sync worker makes no sense
  656. # [18:30] <Manishearth> ah
  657. # [18:31] <Hixie> and how is a shared worker any less "sync"?
  658. # [18:31] <Ms2ger> Hixie, in the sense that it gets access to FooSync APIs
  659. # [18:31] <Ms2ger> Shared too
  660. # [18:31] <Ms2ger> But not ServiceWorker
  661. # [18:31] <Manishearth> ah
  662. # [18:31] <Hixie> o_O
  663. # [18:31] <Hixie> why would service worker not get the same apis?
  664. # [18:31] <Manishearth> hooray for nomenclature
  665. # [18:31] <Ms2ger> Because it's not supposed to block
  666. # [18:31] <Hixie> why would it matter if it blocks? and how would you stop it from blocking?
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  668. # [18:32] <Hixie> are service workers going to have script timeouts like main thread scripts?
  669. # [18:32] <Ms2ger> annevk, ^
  670. # [18:32] <annevk> not sure, they might die at any point
  671. # [18:33] <annevk> but that seems like a good question to ask in that thread
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  679. # [18:47] <Hixie> annevk: so are we going to give up on killing mutation events? or what?
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  683. # [18:54] <annevk> Hixie: smaug____ still has hope, so I haven't given up just yet
  684. # [18:55] <Ms2ger> I'd certainly like to not implement them in Servo
  685. # [18:56] <Ms2ger> Hixie, er... *goes off to check the spec*
  686. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> Hixie, no, I think I'm right
  687. # [18:58] <Hixie> The :disabled pseudo-class must match any element that is actually disabled.
  688. # [18:58] <Hixie> An element is said to be actually disabled if it falls into one of the following categories:
  689. # [18:58] <Hixie> button elements that are disabled
  690. # [18:58] <Hixie> A form control is disabled if its disabled attribute is set, or if it is a descendant of a fieldset element whose disabled attribute is set and is not a descendant of that fieldset element's first legend element child, if any.
  691. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> Stop
  692. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> I'm talking about fieldsets
  693. # [18:58] <Hixie> what about them?
  694. # [18:59] <Hixie> oh nested ones?
  695. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> Yes
  696. # [18:59] <Hixie> ohhh
  697. # [18:59] <Hixie> iteresting
  698. # [18:59] <Hixie> int...
  699. # [18:59] <Ms2ger> "fieldset descendant of a disabled fieldset"
  700. # [18:59] <Hixie> i interpreted "fieldset descendant" in the same sense as "italian descendant", as in, a descendant of a fieldset
  701. # [18:59] <Hixie> my bad
  702. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> Fair :)
  703. # [19:02] <Hixie> man, i'm so bad at being a human. i came into this room an hour ago to get a drink. then i sat down just to see what was going on online, and an hour later, i still haven't gotten a drink.
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  706. # [19:03] <smaug____> Mutation events sure are in my list to kill
  707. # [19:04] <Hixie> seems like if we manage to kill showModalDialog() before mutation events, mutation events are a bit too hardy to kill.
  708. # [19:05] <Domenic> I think MutationEvents will die slowly over the next few years, event-by-event
  709. # [19:05] <Hixie> we don't have much history of usage of a feature going down over time.
  710. # [19:06] <Domenic> Hmm I thought I recalled some chromestatus graphs indicating otherwise
  711. # [19:06] <Domenic> I think loud deprecation warnings help actually
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  713. # [19:06] <Hixie> having those is relatively new, so yeah, maybe they have an effect
  714. # [19:06] <Hixie> though honestly i'd be surprised
  715. # [19:08] <Ms2ger> One can hope ;)
  716. # [19:12] <Hixie> MikeSmith: for validator reasons, be aware of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25572
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  720. # [19:20] <Domenic> JakeA: yaaaay for removing the *
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  724. # [19:23] <annevk> jamesr__: that email was somewhat depressing
  725. # [19:23] <annevk> jamesr__: I believe roc still holds hope for the storage mutex in Servo
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  731. # [19:27] <jamesr__> annevk: the status quo is a bit depressing, but once you accept it the possibilities are much freer
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  746. # [19:34] <annevk> jamesr__: and the apps harder to debug?
  747. # [19:35] <jamesr__> theoretically, yes, in practice, it doesn't seem so
  748. # [19:37] <annevk> jamesr__: also, my problem in that thread is mostly what state the browser will end up in, not so much the page's app
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  750. # [19:42] <jamesr__> the page can't tell about any of this for the most part. if a page calls requestFullscreen(), the UA is allowed to do any number of async steps before deciding to accept or reject the promise
  751. # [19:42] <jamesr__> so from the page's POV it just gets an accepted or rejected promise at some point later
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  753. # [19:52] <annevk> jamesr__: if the updating of document state races can't the page get in a state where when it's first notified it's fullscreen it's for a different element from the one it requested?
  754. # [19:54] <jamesr__> can't that happen without races?
  755. # [19:54] <jamesr__> i.e. i ask for fullscreen on X, the ua pops an infobar asking the user if they want to allow X, then somebody request fullscreen on Y, the ua pops an infobar asking for permission, the user allows Y ?
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  760. # [20:13] <annevk> I thought we had no infobars. Hmm
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  774. # [20:24] <JakeA> Domenic: yeah, it's late in the day to be removing that, but needed to go
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  778. # [20:26] <zewt> surely every ua would have a "yes always stop bothering me every time" button
  779. # [20:27] <zewt> though browsers today are pretty bad about fullscreen, iirc no way to stop the obnoxious "you're fullscreen now" thing every single time
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  807. # [20:59] <Ms2ger> What do people use for http fetching in python nowadays?
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  809. # [21:01] <jgraham> requests
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  811. # [21:02] * Ms2ger tries that
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  814. # [21:15] <Ms2ger> jgraham, shouldn't root.find("span[@id='summary']") work?
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  816. # [21:16] <jgraham> Which treebuilder? If it's ElementTree it only supports a bastardised subset of XPath
  817. # [21:16] <Ms2ger> "the default"
  818. # [21:17] <jgraham> Oh and .find only seems to look at children
  819. # [21:17] <Ms2ger> Doh
  820. # [21:18] <jgraham> Oh wait I lied
  821. # [21:18] <jgraham> The documentation is self-contradictory
  822. # [21:18] <jgraham> You porbably want a // though
  823. # [21:19] <jgraham> "//span[@id='summary']"
  824. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> SyntaxError: cannot use absolute path on element
  825. # [21:19] <jgraham> Add a . then
  826. # [21:19] <jgraham> .//
  827. # [21:19] <Ms2ger> Then it doesn't find anything :/
  828. # [21:20] <jgraham> Does it find anything without the attribute selector?
  829. # [21:20] <Ms2ger> With ".//[@id='summary']" it manages to raise SyntaxError("invalid descendant")
  830. # [21:20] <Ms2ger> Aha
  831. # [21:20] <jgraham> Yeah, that's not valid XPath
  832. # [21:20] <Ms2ger> ".//*[@id='summary']" seems to find something
  833. # [21:21] <Ms2ger> Looks like perl to me, but oh well
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  836. # [21:22] <jgraham> To be fair CSS Selectors look even more like Perl for non-trivial cases
  837. # [21:22] <jgraham> XPath is mostly consistent, it's just complex for any case
  838. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> Had I just used regexps rather than html5lib, I'd probably have cursed less now
  839. # [21:23] <Ms2ger> (And more later, of course)
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  860. # [22:01] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, there's no API to get at the summary of w3.org bugs, right?
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  872. # [22:06] <Hixie> Ms2ger: bugzilla has an api
  873. # [22:07] <Ms2ger> Does it work on the w3.org installation?
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  875. # [22:08] <Hixie> yeah, it's what i use to graph total bugs
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  878. # [22:08] <Ms2ger> Pointer?
  879. # [22:09] <Hixie> uh
  880. # [22:10] <Hixie> dunno
  881. # [22:10] <Hixie> can't see any comments in my code pointing to anything useful :-)
  882. # [22:11] <Hixie> try putting ctype=xml on the query string for a bug
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  884. # [22:14] <Ms2ger> Aha
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  891. # [22:32] <Ms2ger> Hixie, this seems to be reacting terrible slowly
  892. # [22:32] <Hixie> yeah i noticed that too
  893. # [22:32] <Hixie> dunno if it's always that slow
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  899. # [22:51] <Hixie> MikeSmith: you around?
  900. # [22:52] <Hixie> MikeSmith: i was wondering how easy it would be to instrument the validator, or have something on the validator that would catch certain specific errors and encourage users to comment on the relevant bug
  901. # [22:52] <Hixie> MikeSmith: e.g. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12990 is asking for us to allow nested <footer>. Would we be able to detect this case and ask people to comment on that bug about why they need it, possibly linking to their page?
  902. # [22:56] <Ms2ger> Hixie, thanks for the pointer :)
  903. # [22:57] <Hixie> there's something you can do for queries too, iirc
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  905. # [23:01] <Ms2ger> This was sufficient :)
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  927. # [23:24] <Hixie> foolip: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25573
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  951. # Session Close: Wed Jul 30 00:00:00 2014

The end :)