/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-07-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jul 31 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  20. # [00:27] <GPHemsley> I guess yk didn't know that this channel is already publicly logged in at least two separate places...
  21. # [00:29] <Hixie> maybe he just wanted to make sure we knew
  22. # [00:29] <Hixie> though honestly i wish israel paid more attention to #whatwg
  23. # [00:29] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  24. # [00:30] <Hixie> because (a) it would be fantastic to get their feedback, and (b) maybe it would take their attention away from their current activities.
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  31. # [00:46] * SamB wonders how dumb it would be to replace an img with an image ...
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  52. # [01:21] <Hixie> annevk: ping https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26081
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  154. # [06:39] <hemanth> meow
  155. # [06:40] * hemanth is watching Domenic's https://github.com/domenic/Array.prototype.contains awesome progress! [ Take a bow ]
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  157. # [06:55] <caitp> meow
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  159. # [06:57] <caitp> it would be a nice feature to have, just like all of the es5 features nobody ever uses because they need to support ie4
  160. # [06:58] <hemanth> caitp, hope there will be one day, where all the browser are in sync...
  161. # [06:59] <caitp> such a day will never come, because browser A will support remote controlling your toaster while browser B will only support watering your lawn and making coffee
  162. # [06:59] <hemanth> :D
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  165. # [07:05] <Domenic> Thanks hemanth :)
  166. # [07:05] <hemanth> :)
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  171. # [07:08] <roc> scheib: you know about the FirefoxOS Bluetooth work I assume?
  172. # [07:08] <roc> and are in touch with the people doing it?
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  204. # [08:52] <hemanth> BuzzFeedJS is über funny :D Criticisms at it's best.
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  234. # [10:09] <foolip> annevk: I'll take a look at your spec change today. are you still stuck without something like a storage mutex?
  235. # [10:17] <annevk> foolip: it doesn't do full protection against multiple tabs trying to go fullscreen
  236. # [10:18] <annevk> foolip: the "can activate a popup" helps with that of course, but it's not a perfect system
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  238. # [10:22] <foolip> you mean because there's no way to actually click in the tabs fast enough?
  239. # [10:23] <foolip> are there any races involving exitFullscreen()
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  242. # [10:23] <foolip> s/tabs/frames/
  243. # [10:24] <foolip> if it's only requestFullscreen(), then some vague nonsense about waiting until other requests in the document tree have either failed or completed could be added I guess
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  247. # [10:36] <annevk> foolip: I think exitFullscreen() is fine
  248. # [10:37] <annevk> foolip: I moved most of the logic for both as part of the animation frame task, with the resizing happening before for request and after for exit, asynchronously
  249. # [10:38] <annevk> foolip: at least it no longer tries to access document variables from a potentially parallel thread
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  255. # [10:55] <foolip> annevk: I'll have a look at file a ton of bugs :)
  256. # [10:55] <hemanth> Broken link? https://github.com/whatwg/streams/issues/163
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  259. # [11:20] <annevk> foolip: that's why we love you
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  263. # [11:26] * espadrine` is now known as espadrine
  264. # [11:28] <Ms2ger> Hey foolip, you like reviewing tests, right? ;)
  265. # [11:29] <Ms2ger> Oh look: http://httpwg.github.io/specs/rfc7230.html
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  276. # [11:50] <annevk> position:fixed and fragment identifiers don't go well together
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  282. # [12:13] <foolip> Ms2ger: well, is it media-related?
  283. # [12:13] <Ms2ger> No
  284. # [12:13] <foolip> what is it then?
  285. # [12:14] <foolip> "plz review everything in w-p-t"?
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  287. # [12:14] <Ms2ger> Nah
  288. # [12:14] <Ms2ger> Please review all *my* PRs ;)
  289. # [12:14] <Ms2ger> Or any of them
  290. # [12:15] <Ms2ger> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pulls/Ms2ger
  291. # [12:16] <foolip> Ms2ger: you don't like semicolons?
  292. # [12:16] <foolip> https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/39bb75ba?review=2192
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  294. # [12:16] <Ms2ger> I followed file style
  295. # [12:16] <Ms2ger> I think annevk's fault :)
  296. # [12:17] <foolip> of course, I assumed the test was originally yours as well
  297. # [12:17] <annevk> "fault" I say
  298. # [12:17] <annevk> "Just" learn ASI
  299. # [12:17] <Ms2ger> commit ddfe31fcc58bf52fab979d0df20fda121a6f8bda
  300. # [12:17] <Ms2ger> Author: Anne van Kesteren <annevk@opera.com>
  301. # [12:17] <Ms2ger> Date: Tue Sep 7 09:45:24 2010 +0200
  302. # [12:17] <Ms2ger> adoptNode/importNode should not throw for invalid names as per zcorpan's original draft and implementations
  303. # [12:17] <foolip> I shouldn't complain, I like to use == instead of ===
  304. # [12:18] * Ms2ger gasps
  305. # [12:18] * foolip isn't sure what the cool stance is
  306. # [12:18] <annevk> SameValueZero of course
  307. # [12:18] <Ms2ger> assert_equals :)
  308. # [12:19] <foolip> well yeah, but when not writing tests I mean :)
  309. # [12:19] <Ms2ger> I guess === is most correct for the effort required
  310. # [12:19] <annevk> Of course, SameValueZero only exists for Map/Set, there's no primitive
  311. # [12:20] <foolip> what's SameValueZero? google denies knowledge
  312. # [12:20] <annevk> foolip: http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-samevaluezero
  313. # [12:20] <annevk> foolip: it's like Object.is(), except that -0 and +0 are also equal
  314. # [12:21] <foolip> but... 1/Infinity === -1/Infinity
  315. # [12:22] <foolip> but apprently !Object.is(1/Infinity, -1/Infinity)
  316. # [12:22] <foolip> cute
  317. # [12:23] <annevk> foolip: https://github.com/domenic/Array.prototype.contains#why-samevaluezero
  318. # [12:24] <foolip> Object.is(NaN, NaN) is true, that's refreshing
  319. # [12:24] <annevk> Yeah, that's the difference with ===
  320. # [12:24] <foolip> well, I'm glad there's no complexity on the Web!
  321. # [12:24] <annevk> They should just add Object.isz() and be done with it
  322. # [12:24] <annevk> Or ====
  323. # [12:24] <annevk> foolip: at least there's no racing :p
  324. # [12:25] <foolip> what's wrong with !Object.is(1/Infinity, -1/Infinity)
  325. # [12:25] <foolip> ?
  326. # [12:25] <foolip> they are different, after all
  327. # [12:26] <annevk> I'm not sure, but reportedly you want -0 and +0 to be treated identically commonly
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  330. # [12:29] <foolip> Ms2ger: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomment?chain=6942
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  332. # [12:53] <Ms2ger> Landed as "Sumbit progress and range tests from IE10 development"
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  341. # [13:22] <foolip> Ms2ger: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/33 looks like a bucketload of fun, is that completely unreviewed or just in need of rubber stamping?
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  345. # [13:27] <sangwhan> Does anyone know why this test passes in particular on Gecko? http://tests.sangwhan.com/tests/generated_keyevent.html
  346. # [13:28] <sangwhan> seems to fail on everything else i tried (which excludes IE, which I don't have access to)
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  354. # [14:26] <Ms2ger> "W3C Invites Implementations of #HTML5"
  355. # [14:26] <Ms2ger> Why thank you, I'll pass
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  359. # [14:36] <jgraham> Ms2ger: Do you have time to look at the ServiceWorker PR for testharness.js
  360. # [14:36] <jgraham> I have looked through most of it, but didn't mark it reviewed so that you could
  361. # [14:37] <jgraham> [Service]Worker
  362. # [14:37] <Ms2ger> I guess I'll try to do that today
  363. # [14:38] * jgraham wonders if #HTML5 is for people who are high as a kite
  364. # [14:38] <jgraham> (that works better if you prnounce # as hash rather than in one of the 26 other ways…)
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  366. # [14:44] <MikeSmith> sangwhan: suggest asking bz on #developers on irc.mozilla.org
  367. # [14:48] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: your super-important hspace/vspace test is still awaiting responses to my extensive review comments
  368. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> I'm more into review-without-comment ;)
  369. # [14:49] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, will do
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  371. # [14:53] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/2016
  372. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: buttons pushed
  373. # [14:57] * Ms2ger hurries up and close it before anyone has a change of heart
  374. # [14:57] <Ms2ger> *es
  375. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> heh
  376. # [15:03] <jorendorff> foolip: It would be weird for map.get(Math.round(-0.1)) not to find an entry with key 0
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  378. # [15:03] <sangwhan> MikeSmith: i'll try that, lingering in irc.mozilla might raise a eyebrow or two but no harm done i guess
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  381. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> I linger there, so the atmosphere's already tainted
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  383. # [15:09] <foolip> annevk: a colleague of mine just found https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26480 if you want something easy to fix today :)
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  387. # [15:13] <annevk> Hah, going to defer to roc
  388. # [15:13] <annevk> I already fixed an easy bug today by removing a feature from Fetch
  389. # [15:13] <foolip> can't overrun the quota I guess
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  397. # [15:17] <annevk> JakeA: thanks for going through the matrix
  398. # [15:17] <annevk> JakeA: I guess I need to put some time aside to see it makes sense
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  431. # [15:20] <JakeA> annevk: no worries, will get up to speed on that headers stuff to
  432. # [15:20] <JakeA> too*
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  439. # [15:24] <annevk> JakeA: so the idea is that Host, cache headers, etc. are all determined post SW
  440. # [15:24] <annevk> JakeA: because that's how we keep talking about the layering and is in fact how the layering works
  441. # [15:25] <JakeA> Fine with those being post, especially cache
  442. # [15:25] <JakeA> cache needs to be as it could be a security issue
  443. # [15:25] <annevk> JakeA: headers visible to SW would be Accept / Accept-Language, and headers set by developers
  444. # [15:25] <annevk> JakeA: referrer/origin would be exposed as property on Request in due course
  445. # [15:25] <annevk> JakeA: Host etc. is exposed already through Request's url
  446. # [15:26] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, that's great
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  448. # [15:26] <JakeA> annevk: "Accept" & "Accept-Language" were the ones I was concerned about
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  452. # [15:27] <annevk> The downside with this approach is that each spec that does a fetch needs to discuss those headers
  453. # [15:27] <annevk> But that might not be a bad idea anyway
  454. # [15:27] <JakeA> Well, it's kinda magic at the moment that <img> sends different Accept headers
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  456. # [15:28] <annevk> Yeah, we never really defined those things in detail
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  468. # [15:48] <annevk> JakeA: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#http-header-layer-division
  469. # [15:51] <JakeA> annevk: that works for me
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  498. # [17:13] <jgraham> Anyone who has a better feel for promises than me want to comment on promise_test in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcommit?review=2005&filter=files&file=165 (line 465 on the right)?
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  506. # [17:29] <caitp> how do you even look at a diff in critic anyways
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  508. # [17:31] <jgraham> Click on the name of the file you are interested in
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  513. # [17:43] <sangwhan> or press 'e' to see everything
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  521. # [17:53] <caitp> anyways, the promise_test seems a bit weird to me, since it's pretty much a synchronous operation happening there
  522. # [17:54] <caitp> unless you returrn a promise from the test function I guess
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  524. # [17:54] <caitp> which fair enough, but then it's not really abstracting the operation :<
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  526. # [18:00] <jgraham> caitp: Please comment on the patch
  527. # [18:00] <jgraham> I don't want to end up with a crappy API here
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  529. # [18:01] <foolip> annevk: I like the new "fully exit fullscreen"!
  530. # [18:02] <caitp> I don't have anything really substantive to add jgraham, maybe if I saw a test case which is using that api
  531. # [18:02] <caitp> if the expectation is that the function passed should return a promise then it's all good I guess
  532. # [18:03] <jgraham> caitp: The apisampleX.htm files in the review should be a guide
  533. # [18:03] <jgraham> See https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcommit?review=2005&filter=files&file=55848,55849,55189,55850,55851,55852,55853,55854,165
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  536. # [18:04] <caitp> right, so each of those test cases is returning a promise, so I guess that's the expected behaviour
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  550. # [18:32] <caitp> annevk, if you overwrite the timeout attribute of an XMLHttpRequest after sending, with the value 0, would that mean "cancel the timeout", or would that mean "timeout is going to happen right now"
  551. # [18:32] <caitp> that's not totally clear from the spec to me
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  553. # [18:34] * caitp looks at gecko's implementation
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  560. # [18:41] <caitp> it looks like in gecko, if you set the timeout attribute to 0, the timeout timer is cancelled?
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  562. # [18:44] * smaug____ is pretty sure gecko does what the spec at least used to say
  563. # [18:46] <smaug____> but indeed, interpreting the current spec is hard
  564. # [18:47] <smaug____> ah, the note
  565. # [18:47] <smaug____> caitp: "When set to a non-zero value will cause fetching to terminate after the given time has passed"
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  567. # [18:49] <caitp> to me, that makes sense when we're talking about before the request has been sent, but following the note, setting timeout to 0 and updating the timeout timer relative to the start of the request means, 0 ms since the start of the request
  568. # [18:49] <caitp> oh it would be so nice to clarify this
  569. # [18:50] <caitp> but I guess I'll match gecko's behaviour for now
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  572. # [19:03] <SamB> so what does -1 do?
  573. # [19:03] <caitp> assuming the timer is clever, times out immediately I guess
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  621. # [21:01] <annevk> caitp: there's an open bug
  622. # [21:01] <annevk> caitp: we should actually evaluate timeout each time something is pushed from the network I guess
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  626. # [21:05] <caitp> is that the one I reported? if not I'd like to CC myself to it
  627. # [21:09] <annevk> caitp: list of open bugs is available per link at top of the spec
  628. # [21:13] <Hixie> roc: do you have any advice regarding the second paragraph of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23515#c9 ?
  629. # [21:14] <caitp> huh, I reported one of those as well, but i guess someone closed it or something
  630. # [21:14] <Hixie> foolip: ping https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/970
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  632. # [21:17] <annevk> caitp: you sure we didn't just talk about it or it was elsewhere?
  633. # [21:17] <annevk> caitp: I remember you filed a bug on Fetch with regards to Content-Length
  634. # [21:18] <caitp> i've filed lots of bugs, but for w3 and whatwg bugs I rarely manage to keep track of them :>
  635. # [21:20] <Hixie> do you file them from your own account?
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  638. # [21:21] <annevk> caitp: WHATWG and W3C share a Bugzilla instance, although both also use GitHub and mailing lists, and W3C also has a variety of other tools
  639. # [21:21] <annevk> Hixie: you're ok with defining the HTML vocabulary in several drafts now? (re nonce)
  640. # [21:21] <Hixie> zcorpan: so how does <picture> get around the problem where the preloader can't evaluate media queries? did broser vendors relent on this restriction, or what?
  641. # [21:22] <Hixie> annevk: ideally i'd have every web spec in one single document.
  642. # [21:22] <caitp> yeah, the issue is that if I don't receive mail on a bug it usually vanishes, since I don't frequently use the w3's bugzilla
  643. # [21:22] <annevk> Hixie: all in en-GB?
  644. # [21:22] <caitp> that's the way the cookie crumbles
  645. # [21:23] <Hixie> annevk: i don't really care what language :-)
  646. # [21:23] <annevk> Hixie: you broke a bunch of "permanent" links with that change
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  648. # [21:23] <Hixie> which change?
  649. # [21:23] <annevk> en-US -> en-GB
  650. # [21:23] <Hixie> nobody seems to have noticed, if so. that happened months ago.
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  652. # [21:23] <annevk> fragment-links.js change also caused xref to burn
  653. # [21:24] <Hixie> o_O
  654. # [21:24] <Hixie> how so
  655. # [21:24] <annevk> Hixie: maybe it happened a month ago or so?
  656. # [21:24] <annevk> Hixie: it tries to parse the first line as JSON (after eliminating the first seventeen code points)
  657. # [21:24] <annevk> Hixie: however, there's more on the first line now
  658. # [21:24] <annevk> Hixie: I "fixed" it
  659. # [21:25] <Hixie> if it's a JS file, parsing it as JSON seems unwise :-)
  660. # [21:25] <annevk> Hixie: but e.g. my links to "ASCII serialization of origin" broke
  661. # [21:25] <Hixie> ah, yeah. i can add legacy IDs if that would help.
  662. # [21:25] <annevk> Hixie: you also have colour and serialization somewhere, both variants in a single term
  663. # [21:25] <annevk> Hixie: too late now I guess
  664. # [21:26] <Hixie> i think the only mention of "serialization" is in en-US <cite> elements
  665. # [21:26] <annevk> Hixie: but I'm not sure it's helping that we have one spec in en-GB and everything else in en-US for non-native speakers
  666. # [21:26] <Hixie> (i fixed that much more recently)
  667. # [21:26] <annevk> Hixie: maybe some other term with z then
  668. # [21:26] <Hixie> (in fact that might not have been checked in yet)
  669. # [21:27] <Hixie> annevk: feel free to move them all to en-GB :-)
  670. # [21:27] <annevk> Hixie: yeah, it's "rules-for-serializing-simple-colour-values"
  671. # [21:27] <Hixie> the ID?
  672. # [21:27] <Hixie> i can add that
  673. # [21:27] <annevk> Hixie: no, that's the one you have in the spec
  674. # [21:28] <Hixie> that's fixed, just not checked in yet
  675. # [21:28] <Hixie> still trying to pin down a really subtle bug in the new pipeline
  676. # [21:28] <annevk> mkay
  677. # [21:28] <annevk> Moving everything to en-GB is not a credible suggestion
  678. # [21:28] <JakeA> racist
  679. # [21:28] <Hixie> (it takes like 30 minutes for me to run the pipeline each time i change the source a bit because i'm running it in an emulator, sigh)
  680. # [21:29] <annevk> JakeA: you're happily using z's in SW
  681. # [21:29] <JakeA> ServiceWorkerz
  682. # [21:29] <annevk> JakeA: clearly you spent too much time in the colonies
  683. # [21:29] <Hixie> annevk: anyway i added "rules-for-serializing-simple-colour-values" as an ID for the paragraph that will soon say "serialising"
  684. # [21:29] <JakeA> haha
  685. # [21:30] <annevk> Hixie: please don't, that was just an example
  686. # [21:30] <Hixie> annevk: oh
  687. # [21:30] <Hixie> annevk: i thought you were saying it was a broken link
  688. # [21:30] <annevk> Hixie: the things that actually broke for were around serializing origins
  689. # [21:30] <Hixie> ah
  690. # [21:30] <annevk> Hixie: well maybe, not sure what spec references that term though
  691. # [21:30] <annevk> Hixie: but I've updated xref
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  693. # [21:30] <Hixie> k well either way, let me know what IDs I should add if you see other breakage
  694. # [21:30] <annevk> Hixie: so everyone that generates from whatwg/xref will get the new links
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  696. # [21:32] <annevk> Hixie: you broke this btw https://github.com/whatwg/xref/commit/baa85a61896e7c044b17f000fda1c73345e8a437#diff-38676f2ddfbfc15a86de3811c50d83c2R5
  697. # [21:32] <annevk> Hixie: as you can tell the fix is ugly
  698. # [21:33] <Hixie> well parsing that file is a lost cause
  699. # [21:33] <Hixie> that's not a data file
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  701. # [21:33] <Hixie> it's a script
  702. # [21:33] <Hixie> i don't guarantee it won't change dramatically again
  703. # [21:33] <Hixie> in particular, i expect it to get a lot smaller
  704. # [21:34] <Hixie> maybe using a trie or something
  705. # [21:34] <Hixie> to make the data shorter
  706. # [21:34] <Hixie> if you want though i can definitely output a dedicated file that's actually in a defined format that you can parse
  707. # [21:34] <Hixie> bikeshed is asking for something similar
  708. # [21:35] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26335
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  718. # [21:49] <annevk> Hixie: I don't really care about maintaining any of these various things
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  720. # [21:49] <annevk> Hixie: I'd like to switch to Bikeshed I guess if that's going to be maintained
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  722. # [21:49] <annevk> Hixie: writing and coordinating spec writing is more fun
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  747. # [22:23] <caitp> Hixie: it would be really neat if there were a section in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html which enumerates all of the different ways a "submit" event would be dispatched --- primarily so that I have a nice snippet to link to on documentation for other projects
  748. # [22:23] <caitp> do you think such a thing could be possible
  749. # [22:23] <Hixie> there are different ways 'submit' can be dispatched?
  750. # [22:24] <Hixie> you mean other than a form submission and dispatchEvent() ?
  751. # [22:24] <caitp> particularly what would cause a form to be submit
  752. # [22:24] <Hixie> oh how to submit a form
  753. # [22:24] <Hixie> that's an entirely different question
  754. # [22:25] <Hixie> submit buttons, implicit submit buttons, .submit()... anything else?
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  756. # [22:25] <Hixie> (form.submit() doesn't fire the 'submit' event but does submit the form)
  757. # [22:25] <caitp> well, I feel like submit should only be dispatched during form submission, but that's getting into semantics :p someone filed a bug about us invoking a submit event handler when an implicit submit button was clicked, and this resulted in confusion for them
  758. # [22:26] <caitp> so it would be handy to just have a nice collection of these to link people to from docs
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  760. # [22:26] <caitp> and it might make writing tests and whatever easier for implementors, too
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  762. # [22:27] <Hixie> click on "submitted" here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#concept-form-submit
  763. # [22:27] <annevk> roc: do you still want to be copied on all those Fullscreen bugs?
  764. # [22:27] <Hixie> that links to all the places that call that algorithm in the HTML spec
  765. # [22:27] <annevk> roc: I sometimes wonder whether I bother you too much
  766. # [22:28] <caitp> it's extremely dangerous to open the single-page version on a laptop while building chromium hixie :( if this starts a fire I'm totally blaming you
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  769. # [22:28] <annevk> Hixie: remember how I once suggested that we should change the markup around elements and such, such that indexes could be generated rather than written by hand?
  770. # [22:28] <annevk> Hixie: https://twitter.com/codylindley/status/494155769307078662
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  772. # [22:29] <Hixie> file a bug, put 'tools' in the whiteboard, make sure the bug report describes exactly what you want to get out
  773. # [22:29] <Hixie> right now there are so many exceptions that i don't know how to do it
  774. # [22:29] <Hixie> i mean, some of the indexes and stuff are autogenerated
  775. # [22:30] <Hixie> but in general what is in the table and what is in the element definitions need to be different in subtle ways
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  779. # [22:35] <Ms2ger> Does <script async defer src=...> even make sense?
  780. # [22:35] <Ms2ger> Hixie, ^
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  782. # [22:39] <Hixie> right now async and defer are mutually exclusive iirc
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The end :)