/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-08-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 07 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:28] <Hixie> jorendorff: so despite my best efforts, i can't really figure out what happens when you have an "import" statement still
  13. # [00:29] <jorendorff> Hixie: import is a directive to the loader. It means "before you even think about running this code,
  14. # [00:29] <Hixie> i mean at a very concrete level
  15. # [00:29] <jorendorff> Hixie: load *that* module and its dependencies."
  16. # [00:29] <Hixie> involved loader records and all that
  17. # [00:29] <Hixie> involving
  18. # [00:30] <Hixie> does it involve CreateLoaderRecord()?
  19. # [00:30] <Hixie> nothing seems to call CreateLoaderRecord except Reflect.Loader(), which i assume isn't directly invoked by the spec
  20. # [00:31] <jorendorff> Hixie: I don't have time to explain in detail just now, but can we talk tomorrow?
  21. # [00:31] <Hixie> sure
  22. # [00:31] <jorendorff> Hixie: in short, CreateLoaderRecord shouldn't exist, those should be internal slots of the Loader object. It's just the Loader, that's all.
  23. # [00:32] <Hixie> "shouldn't" as in you disagree with the spec, as in the spec will be changed, or as in i should be ignoring that part of the spec?
  24. # [00:33] <jorendorff> i think the spec is unnecessarily complex, but and you should think of those as internal slots of the Loader object because that's what they are in practice
  25. # [00:33] <jorendorff> Hixie: the spec doesn't explicitly create a Loader; it specifies that one exists at startup, details to be supplied by the embedding
  26. # [00:33] <jorendorff> i'll be around tomorrow
  27. # [00:33] <Hixie> the spec is definitely unnecessarily complex, but it's the spec, so... :-(
  28. # [00:33] <Hixie> k
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  30. # [00:38] <Hixie> gah i don't get this spec
  31. # [00:38] <Hixie> it has all these dangling definitions
  32. # [00:38] <Hixie> 26.4 The System Object
  33. # [00:38] <Hixie> The System object is the Loader Object instance associated with the Realm of the current global object.
  34. # [00:39] <Hixie> first of all, "Loader Object instance"? surely you can't have an instance of an object, objects _are_ instances
  35. # [00:39] <Hixie> secondly, the term "System Object" doesn't get mentioned anywhere else except that one sentence.
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  37. # [00:41] <Hixie> 8.2 Code Realms "A Realm is specified as a Record with the fields specified in Table 20:" [...] "[[loader]]" [...] "The Loader object that can associate ECMAScript code with this Realm"
  38. # [00:41] <caitp> over 50% of implementors should be able to figure it out! [[snerk]]
  39. # [00:41] <Hixie> the term "[[loader]]" isn't mentioned anywhere else either
  40. # [00:41] <Hixie> 6.1.7.4 Well-Known Intrinsic Objects "Well-known intrinsics are built-in objects that are explicitly referenced by the algorithms of this specification and which usually have Realm specific identities." [...] "%Loader%" (no definition)
  41. # [00:42] <Hixie> %Loader% is only used twice: "The initialize value of Reflect.Loader is the %Loader% intrinsic object" and "The initial value of Reflect.Loader.prototype.constructor is the built-in %Loader% constructor"
  42. # [00:42] <Hixie> so, looks like we have three separate realm-specific Loader objects. but. none of them are used to load anything.
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  44. # [00:44] <Hixie> does anyone implement any of this stuff?
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  46. # [00:45] <caitp> i recall there was a bug for it on mozilla's tracker, dunno the status of it
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  48. # [00:47] <caitp> and by "it" I really mean realms, because it's kind of a blocker for the rest of that I think?
  49. # [00:49] <Hixie> browsers have implemented realms for years (implicitly)
  50. # [00:49] <Hixie> i meant the Loader thing
  51. # [00:50] <caitp> is not Loader related to modules?
  52. # [00:50] <caitp> anyways, there's no bug found for "es6 loader"
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  128. # [03:16] <SamB> Hixie: I just got the "too slow?" note *on* the multi-page version ...
  129. # [03:16] <SamB> or so it seemed
  130. # [03:18] <SamB> Hixie: also isn't blink supposed to be non-defined at #the-blink-element rather than just #blink ?
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  319. # [10:08] <mathiasbynens> https://code.google.com/p/v8/issues/detail?id=2218 + https://code.google.com/p/v8/issues/detail?id=2217 interoperability++
  320. # [10:08] <mathiasbynens> took over 2 years
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  332. # [10:40] <annevk> mathiasbynens: writing the spec, the tests, and the implementation is a shame though, but kudos!
  333. # [10:40] <annevk> mathiasbynens: are these methods in ES6 now?
  334. # [10:41] <annevk> looks like it
  335. # [10:41] <annevk> you can search for "blink" :-)
  336. # [10:49] <annevk> mathiasbynens: are you waiting with updating http://javascript.spec.whatwg.org/ until ES6 is published?
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  343. # [10:53] <mathiasbynens> yeah, thanks to spec bug reports i filed two years ago
  344. # [10:53] <mathiasbynens> they are in ES6 now
  345. # [10:54] <mathiasbynens> re: waiting, i’m not sure. is https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html official enough to use as a reference in a spec?
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  362. # [11:10] <tobie> mathiasbynens: that's the one we reference in specref: http://specref.jit.su/search-refs?q=es6
  363. # [11:10] <tobie> http://specref.jit.su/bibrefs?refs=ECMASCRIPT
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  367. # [11:15] <annevk> mathiasbynens: definitely for WHATWG
  368. # [11:16] <annevk> mathiasbynens: it's as close to Living Standard as you can get, and it's what implementers are targeting
  369. # [11:17] <mathiasbynens> ok, cool
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  394. # [12:16] <tobie> annevk: are you using the enhancement tag to denote post v1 features in SW repo?
  395. # [12:16] <annevk> tobie: I guess
  396. # [12:16] <annevk> tobie: post Q3 features
  397. # [12:16] <tobie> just added a v2 milestone to do the same. :/
  398. # [12:17] <annevk> tobie: that seems a bit clearer actually
  399. # [12:17] <annevk> tobie: can we rename labels?
  400. # [12:17] <tobie> yup. will do.
  401. # [12:18] <tobie> a preference for using a milestone, or a tag?
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  403. # [12:25] <annevk> tobie: tag is what we did so far
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  405. # [12:26] <tobie> annevk: oh, well. added a version 2 milestone (we can always replace by a tag instead)
  406. # [12:27] <tobie> currently triaging enhancements as pertaining to required enhancements for v1 or feature requests for the future
  407. # [12:30] <tobie> annevk, JakeA: status of https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/224
  408. # [12:30] <tobie> ?
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  410. # [12:33] <JakeA> tobie: I'd rather we just did this in CSP, but I think we're going to end up sending some kind of header as slightlyoff says
  411. # [12:35] <tobie> JakeA: still something we need for v1, right?
  412. # [12:35] <JakeA> yep
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  419. # [12:49] <tobie> annevk: added a version 1 milestone to all issues tagged with impacts MVP
  420. # [12:49] <tobie> annevk: you can look at unassigned issues here: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+no%3Amilestone
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  429. # [13:13] <zcorpan> what's the reason we can't always autorotate like mobile safari? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25508
  430. # [13:15] <annevk> zcorpan: does it do that even for <img>?
  431. # [13:15] * annevk thought that was not going to be compatible
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  433. # [13:17] <zcorpan> i haven't tested but i see claims that it does
  434. # [13:24] <zcorpan> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=56845#c52
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  439. # [13:36] <zcorpan> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/recurser/exif-orientation-examples/master/Landscape_6.jpg looks like gecko/blink/webkit honor exif for the top-level img page but not for <img>
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  443. # [13:43] <zcorpan> http://www.browserstack.com/screenshots/5864b36445508e27c01ccb333d17b979c27cdfb7
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  445. # [13:45] <annevk> Somewhat weird as both use <img>
  446. # [13:52] <zcorpan> who should i cc from apple/webkit?
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  463. # [14:31] <annevk> zcorpan: hober?
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  465. # [14:33] <zcorpan> thx
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  490. # [15:36] <tobie> annevk: why isn't QuotaExceededError not a subclass of DOMException?
  491. # [15:37] <tobie> annevk: why isn't QuotaExceededError a subclass of DOMException?
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  493. # [15:37] <tobie> (sorry for !!)
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  495. # [15:38] <tobie> annevk: I thought things went something like QuotaExceededError < DOMException < Error
  496. # [15:43] <zcorpan> i've caught up with email now, except for critic
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  499. # [15:48] <annevk> tobie: we haven't sorted exceptions
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  502. # [16:04] <Domenic> tobie: there are no subclasses of DOMException; just DOMExceptions with different `name` properties
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  517. # [16:32] <annevk> So yeah Jake, what about your data? http://jakearchibald.com/
  518. # [16:33] <annevk> JakeA: ^^
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  520. # [16:34] <JakeA> annevk: haha, I was wondering when someone would point that out. It's on my todo list. I should go through the pain of it
  521. # [16:36] <annevk> I need to do it too, but it's going to be a lot of hassle I'm afraid. DreamHost also uses separate domains for MySQL so...
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  524. # [16:37] <JakeA> I'm on Amazon so it might not be too bad, although I host multiple sites from that box so I'll have to work out how to do the SNI stuff
  525. # [16:38] <annevk> If you use SNI, how many browsers do you cut off?
  526. # [16:38] <annevk> Back in the day there were browsers without Host...
  527. # [16:43] <JakeA> IE < 7
  528. # [16:43] <JakeA> Oh & any version of IE on XP
  529. # [16:44] <annevk> I think NN4 didn't do Host, but not really sure
  530. # [16:44] <annevk> JakeA: seems acceptable
  531. # [16:44] <JakeA> Oh, maybe Android 2 too, ugh.
  532. # [16:45] <JakeA> The default browser anyway. Opera/Firefox will be fine
  533. # [16:45] <annevk> Personally, don't really care about that
  534. # [16:46] <JakeA> Same, but I might if I was making a site for "the public"
  535. # [16:46] <annevk> The main problem with TLS is the maintenance
  536. # [16:46] <annevk> I already authenticated with my registrar somehow, it would be nice if they handled the setup...
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  538. # [16:50] <Domenic> CloudFlare seems to have some pretty simple TLS setup
  539. # [16:50] <Domenic> Extremely user-friendly
  540. # [16:54] <annevk> I just noticed I can do it almost automatically with DreamHost too for free
  541. # [16:54] <annevk> Provided I don't want my own IP, which has this caveat: http://wiki.dreamhost.com/Secure_Hosting#SNI_Caveat
  542. # [16:55] <annevk> Oh wait, that's for self-signed. A signed certificate is USD 15
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  573. # [17:42] <Ms2ger> In other news: http/2 breaks the web
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  575. # [17:45] <caitp> you say that like it's a tremendous and avoidable failure =)
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  577. # [17:46] <jgraham> the web, or just twitter?
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  580. # [17:47] <Ms2ger> At least twitter
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  604. # [18:41] <smaug____> Hixie_: how long is a BroadcastChannel supposed to stay alive?
  605. # [18:42] <smaug____> like, does 'new BroadcastChannel('foobar').onmessage = function(){};' in a worker keep the BroadcastChannel and the relevant worker alive forever (assuming the relevant Window object stays alive)
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  611. # [18:44] <tobie> Domenic: figured (re DOMExceptions). A little surprising, though. Do you know why that is the case?
  612. # [18:45] <Domenic> tobie: history i guess
  613. # [18:45] <tobie> C heritage?
  614. # [18:45] <smaug____> Hixie_: I guess so, given the note
  615. # [18:46] * Joins: encrypt3_ (~encryptd_@209.201.113.2)
  616. # [18:46] <smaug____> ...about garbage collecting
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  619. # [18:49] <Ms2ger> tobie, used to be DOMException with .code == DOMException.SYNTAX_ERR, remember ;)
  620. # [18:49] <tobie> sigh
  621. # [18:52] <tobie> Ms2ger: I remember how we were hard coding all of those constants for nodetypes.
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  623. # [18:52] <tobie> if element.nodeType == 3, etc.
  624. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> I don't think I ever had to do that, but then again I've mostly written tests
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  626. # [18:54] <tobie> node type constants weren't implemented in IE < 7 iirc. Hence hard coding their value.
  627. # [18:55] <tobie> Which I believe is one of the main reasons why front-end devs prefer strings over int + const.
  628. # [18:57] <tobie> We just got used to the latter being unreliable across browsers.
  629. # [18:58] <Ms2ger> Yeah
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  631. # [18:58] <tobie> it's a shame, though. const help with readability plus catching typos upfront.
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  635. # [19:02] <jgraham> Maybe ES10 will be the one where we get strong typing and enums
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  639. # [19:06] <gsnedders> jgraham: nah, that's ES4
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  641. # [19:25] <annevk> Even JavaScript itself uses strings for enums
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  643. # [19:28] <SamB> annevk: it's not uncommon in C to #define strings used in that manner
  644. # [19:28] <SamB> for typo-avoidance alone
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  649. # [19:41] <Domenic> typo avoidance is not achieved by the int-enums
  650. # [19:41] <Ms2ger> Well, not in JS
  651. # [19:41] <Domenic> right
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  653. # [19:41] <tobie> Domenic: well, unless they're globals.
  654. # [19:42] <Domenic> O_O
  655. # [19:42] <Domenic> with proxies I think we will start seeing experiments
  656. # [19:42] <Domenic> with things that throw on undefined properties
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  658. # [19:42] <Domenic> there will be chicken-egg problems with perf (nobody uses them because they're slow; nobody optimizes them because nobody uses them)
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  660. # [19:43] <Domenic> but if we can overcome that, especially for simple proxies like "pass-through everything, except throw for undefined gets", then I can see a standards-track typo-preventing enum
  661. # [19:43] <tobie> Yeah, that's what I meant by globals (not properties of something).
  662. # [19:44] <tobie> as in .code == DOM_EXCEPTION_SYNTAX_ERR
  663. # [19:45] <SamB> Domenic: I wasn't suggesting that it was
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  665. # [19:46] <SamB> Domenic: I was merely mentioning a thing that can be helpful in dealing with typos even if you do want to use string values for this
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  667. # [19:47] <Domenic> SamB: sorry, I was replying to tobie
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  670. # [19:49] <tobie> Domenic: agree the normal, hanging off an object enum won't help you pick up typos.
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  744. # [22:31] <Hixie_> SamB: file bugs
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  746. # [22:31] <Hixie_> smaug____: yeah
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  748. # [22:32] <Hixie_> jorendorff: your day any better today? :-)
  749. # [22:33] <jorendorff> phew
  750. # [22:34] <jorendorff> Hixie_: it's honestly not great... today could work, but tomorrow would be better if it would be OK
  751. # [22:34] <Hixie_> jorendorff: happy to get your help whenever it's available. I'll try to forge on without it in the meantime. :-)
  752. # [22:35] <jorendorff> Hixie_: Please ping me tomorrow as soon as possible. I'm sorry about today. Fires.
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  754. # [22:35] <jorendorff> Fires and interns.
  755. # [22:35] <Hixie_> jorendorff: good luck with your fires!
  756. # [22:36] <crankharder> wondering if this is a good place to ask about the Content-Security-Policy-Report-Only header, seen here: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSP/#content-security-policy-report-only-header-field
  757. # [22:36] <jorendorff> thank you
  758. # [22:39] <Hixie_> abarth: ping ^
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  787. # [23:33] <crankharder> how can something violate this Content-Security-Policy? "default-src *"
  788. # [23:34] <crankharder> getting lots of warnings with just that set
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  806. # Session Close: Fri Aug 08 00:00:00 2014

The end :)