/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-08-11 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 11 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:16] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think you might find the twitter discussion at https://twitter.com/sleevi_/status/498505466243084288 interesting
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  9. # [00:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: on a related note, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on FIDO some time
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  20. # [00:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: just came across https://twitter.com/sleevi_/status/466641443759874049 as well
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  23. # [00:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: "Chrome's sandbox is open. Our CDM layer is open ( https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch#chromium/src/media/cdm/ppapi/&sq=package:chromium&rcl=1400004143 … ). We're both implementing the same thing the same way" ... "Heck, even the "download on demand" is there ( https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch#chromium/src/chrome/browser/component_updater/widevine_cdm_component_installer.h&l=1 … )"
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  27. # [00:53] <MikeSmith> Domenic: you also might find https://twitter.com/sleevi_/status/498505466243084288 worth reading
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  29. # [00:54] <MikeSmith> Domenic: and maybe meeting up with Ryan f2f to talk some time (assuming you guys would likely be in the same place at the same time at some ome point)
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  32. # [00:58] <MikeSmith> "Scope will creep and drain 4ever"
  33. # [00:59] <Domenic> MikeSmith: yeah, been in contact with Ryan for a while, although not yet about the upcoming stuff...
  34. # [00:59] <jgraham> Someone should mention that the point of W3C workshops is to gather people who know nothing about the web into a single location so you can laugh at them all with maximum efficiency
  35. # [01:00] <MikeSmith> tee hee
  36. # [01:00] <Domenic> I am kind of counting on implementer disinterest to reign in the crazy? Except apparently Microsoft wants the W3C to standardize bignums
  37. # [01:00] <MikeSmith> jgraham: will add that to the internal documentation on workshop planning
  38. # [01:01] <jgraham> heh
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  40. # [01:02] <MikeSmith> Domenic: yeah, I think actually implementer disinterest will reign in the crazy. It's just a lot of waste and churn in the mean time
  41. # [01:02] <Domenic> MikeSmith: thus jgraham's point :P
  42. # [01:02] <MikeSmith> as Ryan puts it, ーWhen the @w3c puts "make members happy" over "viable and secure platform", its XHTML/SemWeb all over again.
  43. # [01:03] <MikeSmith> Domenic: yeah, jgraham point taken
  44. # [01:03] <MikeSmith> at least we get the lulz
  45. # [01:03] <MikeSmith> so it's not a total waste, in that light
  46. # [01:03] <Domenic> members gonna be memberin'...
  47. # [01:03] <MikeSmith> entertainment value is worth quite a lot
  48. # [01:03] <MikeSmith> ah good verbification Domenic
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  51. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> "we need to member up this WG some more"
  52. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> and dis-membered I guess
  53. # [01:05] <MikeSmith> oh man MUBAR
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  74. # [02:25] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Isn't JS already doing bignums?
  75. # [02:25] <Domenic> TabAtkins: yep. Most recent stuff is at https://github.com/nikomatsakis/typed-objects-explainer/
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  108. # [05:06] <MikeSmith> Streusel: btw the W3C validator is up-to-date now with the latest meta@name values in the wiki (went in along with other changes I pushed yesterday)
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  111. # [05:17] <Streusel> awsum, thanks for letting me know
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  190. # [08:38] <annevk> Hixie_: the resource hints thread on WHATWG impacts your research on reconciling dependency management
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  213. # [09:31] <zcorpan> what's the use case for relList again?
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  217. # [09:50] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, convenience, I guess?
  218. # [09:51] <Ms2ger> Might not be as useful as classList, I guess
  219. # [09:51] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: convenience seems moot if it's something nobody ever does
  220. # [09:51] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  221. # [09:51] <Ms2ger> Does anyone implement it yet?
  222. # [09:51] <zcorpan> gecko according to caniuse
  223. # [09:52] <Ms2ger> Hmm
  224. # [09:53] <Ms2ger> Caniuse is correct
  225. # [09:54] <Ms2ger> karlcow filed the bug
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  230. # [09:58] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/2323 if you're interested in selectorsapi tests :)
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  234. # [09:59] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: yeah i was checking that briefly and concluded that it required more mental stress than i was prepared for at this time :-) will check again later
  235. # [09:59] <Ms2ger> Heh
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  362. # [15:33] <JakeA> annevk: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/403#issuecomment-51711008 - why must URL parsing happen before the async steps?
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  382. # [16:01] <annevk> JakeA: as I said, it grabs global state
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  384. # [16:05] <JakeA> annevk: the parsing does, or just getting the document url for use as the base?
  385. # [16:07] <annevk> JakeA: the parsing does if you use the generic parser
  386. # [16:07] <annevk> JakeA: which might not be needed here
  387. # [16:07] <annevk> JakeA: you could probably use the base URL parser if you want to do parsing async
  388. # [16:08] <JakeA> annevk: it doesn't need to be async, just getting an understanding of the issue
  389. # [16:09] <annevk> JakeA: so yeah, the parsing could probably be async, but typically we do all that on the "main thread"
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  401. # [16:25] <zcorpan> was there a flowchart for how <object> loading works? Hixie_?
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  416. # [16:51] <JakeA> annevk: is it just the url stuff that's problematic in [[Register]], I can't see anything else
  417. # [16:51] <annevk> JakeA: origin comparisons potentially
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  419. # [16:51] <annevk> JakeA: [[GetRegistration]]'s for each might race?
  420. # [16:52] <JakeA> annevk: would you parse the document url before async to work around that?
  421. # [16:53] <annevk> JakeA: I would probably do the security check sync
  422. # [16:53] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  423. # [16:53] <annevk> JakeA: ah yes
  424. # [16:53] <JakeA> makes sense
  425. # [16:53] <annevk> JakeA: that's how these algorithms typically go
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  429. # [16:54] <annevk> JakeA: I guess the only difference with the normal way is that here fetching isn't starting yet
  430. # [16:55] <annevk> JakeA: in terms of language "Browsers may ignore this potentially secure origin rule for development purposes only." is problematic
  431. # [16:55] <annevk> JakeA: you cannot make normative (MAY) statements in a Note
  432. # [16:56] <JakeA> annevk: should that note be there at all, or is it implicit that developer tools can alter spec behaviour?
  433. # [16:56] <annevk> JakeA: prolly better as "If the origin of scriptURL is not potentially secure and developer tools are not enabled,"
  434. # [16:56] <annevk> JakeA: yeah
  435. # [16:56] <annevk> actually yes
  436. # [16:57] <annevk> "Note: Developer tools are expected to enable easier experimentation."
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  438. # [16:58] <annevk> JakeA: but I think instead of saying "potentially secure" you just want to say if the scriptURL's scheme is not https
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  440. # [16:59] <annevk> JakeA: because we want this to be a networked resource
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  442. # [17:01] <JakeA> annevk: we should include private origins too, then asset it's a network resource in a separate step
  443. # [17:01] <JakeA> (localhost for example)
  444. # [17:01] <annevk> JakeA: localhost is not a potentially secure origin afaict
  445. # [17:02] <annevk> oh sorry
  446. # [17:02] * annevk needs to read
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  451. # [17:04] <JakeA> annevk: regarding "Run the following substeps asynchronously:", should that be switched for "queue a task to run the following steps synchronously"?
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  453. # [17:05] <annevk> no
  454. # [17:05] <annevk> most of that should probably be async
  455. # [17:05] <annevk> although you need to be careful with regards to racing
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  457. # [17:06] <JakeA> yeah, that's my worry
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  460. # [17:07] <annevk> I suspect the registrations bit is in the same thread where the UA does navigation and maybe history
  461. # [17:08] <annevk> Instead of phrasing it with for/each you might be better of phrasing it in English
  462. # [17:08] <annevk> as an operation that returns a bunch of globally registered things
  463. # [17:09] <annevk> but yeah, it's a similar problem as what I had with fullscreen, you don't really know if someone else is doing the same thing or changing that global registered things thing
  464. # [17:10] <annevk> unless you'd define that part as having its own event loop, etc.
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  467. # [17:12] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, register(...); register(...); shouldn't be racey
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  469. # [17:14] <annevk> without something like the storage mutex that's hard I think
  470. # [17:14] <annevk> well, there's some ordering guarantees
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  475. # [17:25] <Hixie_> zcorpan: it's in the comments. dunno how accurate it is.
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  493. # [17:56] <ehsan> JakeA: hey, where is the service worker cache discussion meeting happening?
  494. # [17:56] <JakeA> ehsan: there's a hangout link in the invite
  495. # [17:57] <ehsan> JakeA: not in the one that I received :)
  496. # [17:58] <ehsan> JakeA: can you please paste the link here?
  497. # [17:58] <JakeA> ehsan: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/calendar/amFmZmF0aGVjYWtlQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ.h1hjes3p8fo8i8g9mhfbaghpi4
  498. # [17:58] <ehsan> ta
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  529. # [18:24] <zcorpan> Hixie_: does your pipeline strip out comments?
  530. # [18:24] <Hixie_> 5es
  531. # [18:25] <Hixie_> yes even
  532. # [18:25] <zcorpan> ok :-/
  533. # [18:25] <Hixie_> you wouldn't want to look in the published source anyway
  534. # [18:25] <Hixie_> that's a mess
  535. # [18:25] <Hixie_> look in the pre-pipeline source :-)
  536. # [18:26] <zcorpan> i could have used http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/bookmarklets/reveal-comments
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  550. # [18:39] <Hixie_> is ModuleLinkage the same as LinkSet in the ES6 spec?
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  553. # [18:41] <Hixie_> ah, no, it's a copy/paste error
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  555. # [18:45] <Hixie_> jorendorff: any idea what a Module record is?
  556. # [18:46] <Hixie_> as in, if L is a Loader record, L.[[Modules]][i].[[Module]]
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  559. # [18:47] <jorendorff> Hixie_: spec bug. It means a Module object.
  560. # [18:47] <Hixie_> ah ok
  561. # [18:48] <caitp> is the change history for the draft actually available anywhere? man that would be so useful
  562. # [18:48] <caitp> and by "anywhere" I mean publicly
  563. # [18:48] <jorendorff> caitp: NO.
  564. # [18:48] <jorendorff> caitp: the editor refuses to use version control
  565. # [18:48] <caitp> that's unfortunate
  566. # [18:48] <jorendorff> tell me about it
  567. # [18:49] <jorendorff> i didn't have a chance to talk about formal grammars with my 8-yr-old this weekend, but i think i have an approach that... *might* work
  568. # [18:49] <jorendorff> sorry, offtopic
  569. # [18:50] <TabAtkins> jorendorff: Actually, that sounds on-topic and very interesting. Elaborate?
  570. # [18:50] <caitp> i'm excited to hear about the progress on that front =)
  571. # [18:50] <Ms2ger> Sounds off-topic... There's logic in formal grammars :)
  572. # [18:51] <jorendorff> Ms2ger: have you looked at the es6 spec lately? ;)
  573. # [18:51] <TabAtkins> I see you've never tried to use the CSS 2.1 grammar.
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  576. # [18:51] <jorendorff> TabAtkins: someone (I think caitp?) made the controversial claim in irc.mozilla.org#jslang that there's no reason formal grammars can't be explained so a typical 5-year-old can understand
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  578. # [18:52] <Ms2ger> jorendorff, I try to avoid it in general, not for the grammar in particular :)
  579. # [18:52] <jorendorff> this was in support of the less controversial claim that the ES6 spec is unnecessarily incomprehensible
  580. # [18:53] <caitp> it was me, but I think I might have been exaggerating slightly when saying 5 year olds should thoroughly understand it --- but I think it should be possible to explain these things in ways that are accessible to young people
  581. # [18:53] <caitp> not even necessarily young people
  582. # [18:54] <caitp> 30-somethings with hangovers
  583. # [18:54] <caitp> it should be doable
  584. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> I mean, just post a question to http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/
  585. # [18:54] <Ms2ger> I certainly won't argue against that
  586. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> And you'll get an answer.
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  597. # [19:00] <Hixie_> jorendorff: step 2 of http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-createlinkset
  598. # [19:00] <Hixie_> jorendorff: is that a spec bug?
  599. # [19:01] <Hixie_> also how can PromiseBuiltinCapability() ever return an abrupt completion
  600. # [19:01] <Hixie_> isn't that all internal to the spec
  601. # [19:02] <jorendorff> Hixie_: regarding step 2 of CreateLinkSet, yes
  602. # [19:02] <Hixie_> what should it be?
  603. # [19:05] <Hixie_> jorendorff: loader.[[LoaderObj]] ?
  604. # [19:05] <jorendorff> Hixie_: well, *really* there shouldn't be two separate things, a Loader Object and a Loader Record.
  605. # [19:05] <jorendorff> There should just be the Loader Object
  606. # [19:06] <jorendorff> and those Loader Record fields should be internal slots of the object.
  607. # [19:06] <jorendorff> they're 1-to-1 already anyway, the record is stupid
  608. # [19:06] <jorendorff> but to answer your question, yes.
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  614. # [19:14] <Hixie_> jorendorff: k
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  616. # [19:14] <Hixie_> sweet freaking kittens following this is making my mind melt
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  618. # [19:15] <Hixie_> PromiseOfStartLoadPartwayThrough() creates a promise, sets a particular function as the executor, and chains to it synchronously
  619. # [19:15] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  620. # [19:15] <Hixie_> AsyncStartLoadPartwayThrough(), that executor, immediately creates a new promise and slaves its own result to that new promise's
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  622. # [19:16] <Hixie_> it then either creates YET ANOTHER promise and ASYNCHRONOUSLY jumps to a function it slaves to that promise, OR, it calls another function that does that
  623. # [19:16] <Hixie_> at this point, if you can follow who is actually running, when they'll be running, or what will happen when they return, you're a stronger person than i
  624. # [19:18] * Parts: m1ck3y (~root@jonkuperman.com) ("WeeChat 0.3.8")
  625. # [19:19] <Hixie_> aha! haha! hah!
  626. # [19:19] <Hixie_> i have finally found the function i'm supposed to call!
  627. # [19:19] <Hixie_> LoadModule(loader, name, options) !
  628. # [19:19] <Hixie_> no idea what i'm supposed to call it with, but that's another story!
  629. # [19:21] <annevk> only took a week :p
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  631. # [19:25] <Hixie_> http://www.gliffy.com/go/publish/6040024 !
  632. # [19:25] <Hixie_> witness the glory
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  642. # [19:38] <Hixie_> jorendorff: so, first, how does that look to you? did i make any mistakes?
  643. # [19:39] <Hixie_> jorendorff: second, now that i have a better handle on what's going on beneath the hood, let's talk about what the Web's default Loader should do.
  644. # [19:39] <jorendorff> absolutely
  645. # [19:40] <jorendorff> (to the second, still looking at the first part)
  646. # [19:40] <Hixie_> jorendorff: normalize() -- do we need to change anything here? e.g. is it supposed to resolve the URL or something?
  647. # [19:43] <Hixie_> lol, gliffy's svg export is lame
  648. # [19:43] <Hixie_> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/552
  649. # [19:43] <Hixie_> half of it just comes out as bitmaps
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  651. # [19:43] <annevk> Philips on HDMI-CEC: "The HDMI-CEC functionality on devices from other brands might not work with your TV due to different interpretations of the HDMI-CEC industry standard."
  652. # [19:43] <annevk> "Web pages might not work due to different interpretations of HTML."
  653. # [19:45] <caitp> just imagine if there was some kind of reference implementation that people could use to clarify questions about specs
  654. # [19:45] <caitp> wouldn't that be nifty
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  656. # [19:45] <annevk> that just creates more issues
  657. # [19:46] <Hixie_> reference implementations rarely match the spec, so actually, it's like having two specs
  658. # [19:46] <Hixie_> and if you doubt the problems of having two specs, just look at HTML
  659. # [19:48] <caitp> if there's a difference between a reference implementation and the spec it implements, one would err on the side of the reference implementation because there's evidence that it works and isn't just a collection of ideas
  660. # [19:48] <Hixie_> jorendorff: so if i wanted to make it possible to import binary blobs, e.g. import sprites as "spritesheet.png";, what would i return in the fetch hook? the empty string but remember in the backend that this particular load has associated binary data?
  661. # [19:49] <Hixie_> actually i get it doesn't check that the return value is a string
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  663. # [19:52] <jorendorff> Hixie_: normalize() converts from (a) literally whatever they put into the import statement, to (b) the name a loaded module is cached under
  664. # [19:52] <jorendorff> so if you want people to be able to... import foo from "../baz.js";
  665. # [19:53] <jorendorff> but you want it to be cached under a URL
  666. # [19:53] <jorendorff> or something else entirely
  667. # [19:53] <Hixie_> so normalise resolves urls
  668. # [19:53] <jorendorff> no
  669. # [19:53] <jorendorff> that's not the design intent, i misspoke
  670. # [19:53] <Hixie_> oh
  671. # [19:53] <Hixie_> i was gonna say, the spec says locate resolves.
  672. # [19:53] <jorendorff> yeah, locate resolves
  673. # [19:54] <Hixie_> so do we not want import foo from "../baz.js"; to work?
  674. # [19:54] <Hixie_> or?
  675. # [19:54] <Hixie_> i'm confused
  676. # [19:54] <Hixie_> seems like we need normalise to resolve
  677. # [19:54] <Hixie_> and locate to be a no-op
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  679. # [19:55] <jorendorff> that's possible, but what i'd like is to have some kind of `myLoaderObject.paths` property that makes it easy to customize that lookup --- require.js has this
  680. # [19:55] <jorendorff> so there's some separation between application code and deployment
  681. # [19:55] <Hixie_> ah
  682. # [19:56] <jorendorff> admittedly the rest of the web platform doesn't exactly have this...
  683. # [19:56] <Hixie_> well it would if we added this
  684. # [19:56] <Hixie_> since this is going to end up being the entire platform's loading mechanism if i have my way
  685. # [19:56] <jorendorff> but like, I just want to say import $ from "jquery"; <--- and be able to share that line of code with people I don't know and have it work for them
  686. # [19:56] <jorendorff> because they've also got "jquery" in their environment
  687. # [19:56] <jorendorff> at a path that's known to them
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  689. # [19:57] <jorendorff> Hixie_: yeah!
  690. # [19:58] <Hixie_> so there's a difference between mapping names to URLs, which is what |import $ from "jQuery"| apperas to be, and having your traditional path lookup system
  691. # [19:58] <Hixie_> in particular, path lookup wouldn't work on the web
  692. # [19:58] <Hixie_> (no way to stat efficiently)
  693. # [19:58] <jorendorff> right
  694. # [19:58] <Hixie_> a mapping is hard because it needs a declaration mechanism
  695. # [19:58] <Hixie_> which we could add i guess
  696. # [19:58] <jorendorff> require.js doesn't do that, it's not CLASSPATH
  697. # [19:59] <Hixie_> so you could say <script type=module name=jQuery>
  698. # [19:59] <Hixie_> to declare the mappings
  699. # [19:59] <Hixie_> is that more what you meant?
  700. # [19:59] <jorendorff> yes
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  702. # [19:59] <Hixie_> so then what would normalise actually do?
  703. # [19:59] <jorendorff> though i'd like to be able to configure it in js without having to use document.createElement('script')
  704. # [19:59] <Hixie_> still seems like it needs to output a url at the end of the day
  705. # [20:00] <Hixie_> sure
  706. # [20:00] <Hixie_> we'd have an API for it
  707. # [20:00] <jorendorff> k
  708. # [20:00] <Hixie_> (realistically you're going to want to predeclare all your modules, style sheets, etc, declaratively anyway, so we can do prefetching)
  709. # [20:00] <jorendorff> yeah
  710. # [20:00] <jorendorff> ok
  711. # [20:00] <Hixie_> (there's no way the web can wait for ES6's parser to see the "import" declaration)
  712. # [20:01] <jorendorff> Hixie_: ok, so all normalize would do is resolve relative module names to full module names
  713. # [20:01] <Hixie_> (at least not for the near term)
  714. # [20:01] <Hixie_> what's a "full module name"?
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  716. # [20:01] <Hixie_> seems like there's one step that takes ambiguous names and outputs full absolute URLs
  717. # [20:01] <Hixie_> and it has to happen before the registry lookup
  718. # [20:02] <Hixie_> i don't see how that gets split in two
  719. # [20:02] <jorendorff> in the design, the module names have a hierarchy that's totally independent of where stuff is located
  720. # [20:02] <jorendorff> i mean, it's not baked in, because you can have normalize be a no-op
  721. # [20:02] <jorendorff> but that was the idea. people want to have packages that contain multiple modules
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  723. # [20:03] <Hixie_> what's a "package" in this context?
  724. # [20:05] <jorendorff> like npm, an installable chunk of software. or like java, a directory containing related files of code. either meaning.
  725. # [20:05] <jorendorff> more like npm, not so much like java
  726. # [20:05] <Hixie_> ok but either way you still need to predeclare each file, right? so how does this affect us?
  727. # [20:06] <jorendorff> it affects the author of the package. say my package is called libjorendorff
  728. # [20:06] <jorendorff> and it's big, it's several modules
  729. # [20:07] <jorendorff> if there's a normalize hook, in libjorendorff/factories i can write `import "./pipelines"` and the normalize hook could resolve that to "jorendorff/pipelines"
  730. # [20:07] <jorendorff> that "/" is not a URL path separator
  731. # [20:07] <jorendorff> because that's not a url, it's just a module name
  732. # [20:08] <Hixie_> oh you want the web platform to support that natively?
  733. # [20:08] <jorendorff> a package then doesn't have to depend on its own name, which lets you load multiple versions of it at once under different names (without the cache getting confused)
  734. # [20:08] <Hixie_> this would all still need to happen along with url resolution in the normalise hook, though, right?
  735. # [20:09] <Hixie_> anyway i'm happy to do more than straight forward name lookup followed by url resolution. but i've no idea what it should be exactly, i'd need to be told precisely what people wanted.
  736. # [20:09] <jorendorff> ...i think we could actually supply that
  737. # [20:10] <jorendorff> but so why not convert it to a URL in the locate hook?
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  739. # [20:10] <jorendorff> the design intent was that in the web platform, locate() spits out a URL
  740. # [20:10] <jorendorff> but you really want URLs to be the cache key?
  741. # [20:11] <Hixie_> i don't understand how anything else would work
  742. # [20:11] <Hixie_> why would you cache on anything _but_ the url?
  743. # [20:11] <jorendorff> well, so consider python for example
  744. # [20:11] <jorendorff> import sys; print(sys.modules)
  745. # [20:11] <jorendorff> that corresponds exactly to the loader cache.
  746. # [20:11] <jorendorff> it's just a {string: module} dictionary
  747. # [20:11] <jorendorff> but the strings are module names, not filenames.
  748. # [20:12] <Hixie_> say one package does |import image from "foo.png"| and another does |import image from "./foo.png"|, do you want the image to be fetched twice?
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  751. # [20:12] <Hixie_> python doesn't have a high download cost
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  753. # [20:12] <jorendorff> Hixie_: that's not true, going to disk is slow and loading/parsing code twice would be slow; in addition things wouldn't work properly
  754. # [20:13] <Hixie_> nor, i suspect, does it have a way to map two names to different paths
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  756. # [20:14] <Hixie_> (which meaning the same underlying file)
  757. # [20:15] <jorendorff> the difference in stat() performance doesn't seem to bear on this. Python could certainly cache based on filename. Why doesn't it?
  758. # [20:15] <Hixie_> what's the difference between what it does and caching on filenames, in practice?
  759. # [20:15] <jorendorff> Java ClassLoaders don't either, I don't think. I can't think of a system that does...
  760. # [20:16] <Hixie_> do any of those systems have a way to accidentally import the same underlying file under two different import names?
  761. # [20:16] <Hixie_> or is there a 1:1 mapping of their names to the underlying paths?
  762. # [20:17] <jorendorff> Hixie_: let me back up a bit and address your exact example
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  765. # [20:19] <jorendorff> Hixie_: |import image from "foo.png"| <--- the design intent was that module names aren't urls;
  766. # [20:20] <jorendorff> Hixie_: dherman proposed you might say somethign like |import image from "url(foo.png)";| or "@foo.png", but I think annevk successfully wtf-orpetoed the proposal
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  768. # [20:21] <jorendorff> Hixie_: what i'd like is |import image from "_static/foo.png" where I've already configured <module "_static" href="/static">
  769. # [20:21] <jorendorff> or something like that
  770. # [20:21] <jorendorff> name="_static
  771. # [20:22] <Hixie_> why would we force authors to have an indirection layer
  772. # [20:22] <Hixie_> i'm all for supporting extra things before we convert to URLs, but realistically, most deployments are just gonna need to refer to local files
  773. # [20:23] <Hixie_> there's no win in forcing authors to declare that "images/" means "images/" before they can use "images/foo.png" as far as i can tell
  774. # [20:24] <Hixie_> i mean, even in java and perl and so on, there's usually a more or less direct mapping between the fully qualified package names and the actual paths to find the files -- it's just that they have search paths that they can quickly stat first
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  824. # [21:24] <Hixie_> (back)
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  846. # [21:49] <Hixie_> jorendorff: another question, while you're pondering the earlier ones: in practice, we're going to want the browser to manage the loads from multiple origins at the same time (e.g. consider depending on a third-party iframe, which might have its own dependencies).
  847. # [21:49] <Hixie_> jorendorff: but it looks like the Loader object is per-Realm
  848. # [21:49] <Hixie_> jorendorff: do i just make the System Loader object fake its data to the ES6 level and manage it separately at the event-loop or top-level-browsing-context level?
  849. # [21:50] <jorendorff> good questions all
  850. # [21:50] <jorendorff> i don't know
  851. # [21:50] <jorendorff> i'm not super satisfied with the earlier stuff, but i don't see how to make it feel natural for everybody... you can have the default paths be just "load everything relative to this document's url"
  852. # [21:51] <jorendorff> but still if you show example code doing import style from "whatever.css"; there is no way you are going to prevent people from instantly believing that's a URL
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  854. # [21:55] <Hixie_> i think there's more or less nothing we can do which is going to make people think that "import foo from bar" isn't going to mean the same as <script type=module name=foo href=bar>, personally
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  856. # [21:55] <Hixie_> that it really means <script type=module name=??? href=foo> where "foo" is somethinge else again imho doesn't match the platform aesthetic at all
  857. # [21:55] <Hixie_> er
  858. # [21:56] <Hixie_> i mean <script type=module name=bar href=???>
  859. # [21:56] <Hixie_> even i can't work out what it means
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  864. # [22:02] <Hixie_> i wonder what browsers scope their prioritisation decisions to
  865. # [22:02] <Hixie_> top-level browsing contexts?
  866. # [22:02] <Hixie_> event loops?
  867. # [22:02] <Hixie_> the whole UA?
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  871. # [22:10] <jyasskin_w> Hixie_: network request prioritization?
  872. # [22:11] <Hixie_> yeah
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  876. # [22:13] * jyasskin_w forwards the question to willchan
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  878. # [22:14] <willchan> jyasskin_w told me there was a question about browser network request prioritization
  879. # [22:15] <willchan> chromium prioritizes everything going through its network stack
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  881. # [22:15] <Hixie_> ah ok
  882. # [22:16] <Hixie_> so it's whole-UA
  883. # [22:16] <Hixie_> interesting
  884. # [22:16] <willchan> not everything goes through our network stack though, such as plugin sockets and chrome app sockets, and we have some things that currently skip it like webrtc and what not. but we're fixing that.
  885. # [22:16] <willchan> yes, whole-UA
  886. # [22:16] <smaug____> willchan: so bg tabs don't get lower priority than foreground tab?
  887. # [22:16] <willchan> but most of the prioritization is contextual to a chromium profile.
  888. # [22:17] <willchan> if you're talking about network request prioritization, then no, bg tabs don't currrently get lower priority than foreground tabs. but that's in progress.
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  890. # [22:17] <smaug____> (at least in certain cases gecko gives lower priority for bg tabs)
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  892. # [22:24] <SamB> is webrtc NOT short for WEB RealTime Clock?
  893. # [22:25] <SamB> smaug____: would be nice if gecko could evict some BG tabs to disk, or perhaps even not touch their arenas often
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  895. # [22:27] <smaug____> SamB: sure. Issue is that web pages tend to have rather live data these days
  896. # [22:27] <smaug____> static pages are fine
  897. # [22:27] <SamB> well, yes, I realize it's easiest for static pages
  898. # [22:28] <smaug____> we don't page in those tabs in anyway too often
  899. # [22:28] * smaug____ seems to have 176 tabs open atm
  900. # [22:30] <SamB> smaug____: I mean, for example, dialing down the GC frequency for those tabs would seem wise
  901. # [22:31] <smaug____> SamB: those shouldn't really participate in GC all the time
  902. # [22:31] <smaug____> assuming we do compartment GCs
  903. # [22:31] <smaug____> (that is something to tweak probably)
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  905. # [22:31] <smaug____> for CC we certainly optimize out most of such tabs
  906. # [22:37] <Hixie_> jorendorff: another reason to fully evaluate the names to URLs in the normalize hook is that if we rely on attributes for the mapping yet do the resolving in locate, the mappings could change between the time we look up the normalised names and the time we fully resolve the URLs
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  909. # [22:39] <Hixie_> jorendorff: another question. When does the ES6 loader actually evaluate the code?? I found where it compiles it (InstantiateSucceeded), but I just noticed that nothing in my flow chart _runs_ the code.
  910. # [22:39] <Hixie_> jorendorff: am I supposed to keep track of what order things are to run in, and then run it myself?
  911. # [22:39] <Hixie_> (in the HTML spec, i mean)
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  918. # [22:46] <jorendorff> Hixie_: OK. In ES6, the code runs "at the last minute" before exposing the module object to user code. See EnsureEvaluated and the things that call it.
  919. # [22:47] <Hixie_> so basically i'm supposed to call EvaluateLoadedModule() when the LoadModule() promise resolves?
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  923. # [22:52] <jorendorff> Hixie_: sections like EvaluateLoadedModule() are "closures"
  924. # [22:53] <jorendorff> i don't know if this is clear or not
  925. # [22:53] <jorendorff> but you can't just call EvaluateLoadedModule
  926. # [22:53] <Hixie_> er yeah sorry i meant, i call EnsureEvaluated() when the promise is resolved
  927. # [22:53] <jorendorff> yeah
  928. # [22:53] <jorendorff> yeah that's right
  929. # [22:53] <Hixie_> interesting
  930. # [22:54] <jorendorff> the system should totally do that for you though, right?
  931. # [22:54] <Hixie_> and that does the work of evaluating all the dependencies?
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  933. # [22:54] <Hixie_> well, no, i'm good with doing it
  934. # [22:54] <Hixie_> in particular, i want separate control over fetching and executin
  935. # [22:54] <Hixie_> g
  936. # [22:54] <jorendorff> Hixie_: yes, it walks the dependency graph
  937. # [22:54] <Hixie_> which this provides
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  940. # [22:57] <Hixie_> hmmmm
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  942. # [23:00] <Hixie_> jorendorff: hmm, interesting. There doesn't seem to be any way in ES6 to map a <script type=module> to a specific Load Record.
  943. # [23:00] <jorendorff> what kind of thing are you looking for?
  944. # [23:02] <Hixie_> i want to get a promise that will resolve when a module has loaded, so that i can pass it to something else (e.g. something that will make a DOM subtree display:block) and say "you depend on this promise"
  945. # [23:02] <Hixie_> also i just noticed that my flowchart is incomplete. I missed Link().
  946. # [23:04] <SamB> smaug____: hmm, how do you avoid touching such tabs for CC?
  947. # [23:04] <SamB> keep notes about what was found there last time?
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  949. # [23:05] <smaug____> SamB: optimizing out from CC graph is rather simple many cases
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  951. # [23:06] <smaug____> in this case check if the document is in an active browsing context
  952. # [23:06] <smaug____> and if scripts haven't been running in those tabs, no nodes etc would end up to possible-garbage-object-buffer
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  954. # [23:07] <smaug____> (skippability and black-bit-propagation are rather nice features of CC)
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  957. # [23:08] <SamB> smaug____: ah, right
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  959. # [23:09] <smaug____> in other words, CC deals with possibly garbage objects , GC deals with live objects
  960. # [23:09] <smaug____> so CC tends to have smaller graphs
  961. # [23:09] <SamB> that list only gets populated with things that have had their refcounts touched in certain ways ...
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  963. # [23:09] <SamB> so if they have not been touched AT ALL, they're automatically exempt
  964. # [23:10] <smaug____> right
  965. # [23:10] <SamB> so, the only thing that needs any thought is to avoid running the GC when, for example, *no* script has executed since the last GC in that arena
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  967. # [23:10] <smaug____> and even if they are touched, but are in a document which is in active browsing context, they can be just removed from possible-garbage-object-buffer
  968. # [23:11] <SamB> not sure I follow that bit
  969. # [23:11] <SamB> what does "active browsing context" mean in this context?
  970. # [23:11] * MikeSmith wonders what is CC
  971. # [23:11] <SamB> does it involve being in a foreground tab?
  972. # [23:11] <SamB> MikeSmith: cycle collection
  973. # [23:11] <smaug____> CC == cycle collector
  974. # [23:11] <MikeSmith> ah ok
  975. # [23:11] <SamB> or collector, as grammatical
  976. # [23:11] <SamB> same as with GC
  977. # [23:12] <smaug____> active browsing context is a spec term, or close to that
  978. # [23:12] <smaug____> basically you have a tab open
  979. # [23:12] <smaug____> it has a top level active browsing context
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  981. # [23:13] <smaug____> for GC the optimization to done is to not run GC for bg tabs' compartments
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  984. # [23:15] <SamB> oh, is "in a document" another spec term?
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  987. # [23:16] <smaug____> node is in a document if there is parentNode chain from the node to the document
  988. # [23:16] <SamB> i.e. for DOM nodes that are clearly linked into a Document that is actually linked into the active browsing context?
  989. # [23:17] <smaug____> right
  990. # [23:17] <smaug____> not all documents are in active browsing context
  991. # [23:17] <SamB> when would would they be removed from the possibly-garbage list
  992. # [23:17] <smaug____> Gecko has forgetSkippable phase
  993. # [23:17] <smaug____> before CC
  994. # [23:17] <SamB> smaug____: yeah, because you can have documents that are just being used for computations or something
  995. # [23:17] <smaug____> which removes obviously live data from the purple buffer
  996. # [23:18] <smaug____> (purple buffer == possible garbage )
  997. # [23:18] <SamB> yeah, I gathered it was the same list we had been talking about
  998. # [23:18] <SamB> which you keep calling a buffer so I assume it's in a flat array of some kind
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  1000. # [23:19] <smaug____> segmented array or some such
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  1012. # [23:33] <pluma> Are there any plans (distant or not so distant) for providing a low-level TCP/UDP socket API in the browser (rather than protocols like WebRTC, web sockets, etc)?
  1013. # [23:33] <Hixie_> how would we do that in a safe fashion?
  1014. # [23:34] <pluma> Hixie_: that's what I was wondering. So the answer is probably "no"?
  1015. # [23:34] <SamB> pluma: web sockets would almost certainly not exist if that it was safe to just allow TCP/UDP sockets
  1016. # [23:35] <SamB> s/that //
  1017. # [23:35] <Hixie_> pluma: if we can find a way to do it safely, i'm sure it'll be mere minutes before it's available. :-)
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  1019. # [23:36] <pluma> Hixie_, SamB: Thanks. I thought I remembered hearing the idea being thrown around at some point, but I apparently remembered wrong. I can't see how to do it safely either (well, maybe with a permission check like the other security-critical APIs, but they'd likely not be very self-explanatory).
  1020. # [23:37] <pluma> Wait, what about http://www.w3.org/TR/raw-sockets/ ?
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  1023. # [23:38] <pluma> Hm... looks pretty dead, though.
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  1026. # [23:40] <Hixie_> the existence of specs doesn't imply anyone will implement them :-)
  1027. # [23:40] <pluma> Hixie_: that's what I though. Okay, thanks again ;)
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  1029. # [23:41] * roc_ is now known as roc
  1030. # [23:41] <Hixie_> (what would you want raw sockets for anyway?)
  1031. # [23:42] <pluma> Hixie_: implement an <insert existing protocol here> client in the browser?
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  1033. # [23:42] <pluma> Hixie_: web vs native, etc
  1034. # [23:43] <Hixie_> do you have a specific example?
  1035. # [23:43] <pluma> I'm not saying that's a good idea. Just an idea someone could have...
  1036. # [23:43] * pluma shrugs
  1037. # [23:43] <pluma> Torrent client?
  1038. # [23:43] <SamB> pluma: it's definitely an idea that would have its uses
  1039. # [23:44] <SamB> but it would also have LOTS AND LOTS of dangerous misuses
  1040. # [23:45] <pluma> The reason I'm asking is because someone asked about porting a python chat client to JS for the browser and the Python code currently uses raw TCP sockets. We recommended using web sockets or some abstraction built on top of that.
  1041. # [23:45] <pluma> (on ##javascript that is)
  1042. # [23:45] <Hixie_> ah like an irc client?
  1043. # [23:46] <Hixie_> yeah we definitely wouldn't want a random web page to be able to connect to a random irc client, just imagine the DOS attacks that would enable :-)
  1044. # [23:46] <Hixie_> er, random irc server
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  1048. # [23:48] <pluma> Hixie_: well, it'd be fun. In the DF sense (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Fun)
  1049. # [23:48] <Hixie_> yeah...
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  1051. # [23:51] * Quits: vitorpacheco (~vitor@186.214.245.187) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1052. # [23:53] * Joins: roc_ (~chatzilla@121-98-105-30.bng1.tvc.orcon.net.nz)
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  1054. # [23:54] * roc_ is now known as roc
  1055. # [23:55] * Joins: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp)
  1056. # [23:56] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1057. # [23:56] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
  1058. # [23:58] * Quits: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  1059. # [23:59] * Joins: lmclister (~lmclister@192.150.10.209)
  1060. # [23:59] * Quits: yoav (~yoav@sdo26-1-78-245-148-181.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  1061. # [23:59] * Quits: kochi_home (~kochi_hom@FL1-122-133-198-67.kng.mesh.ad.jp) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  1062. # Session Close: Tue Aug 12 00:00:00 2014

The end :)