/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-08-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 18 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:48] <roc> zewt: got an example of that github unicode character issue?
  13. # [00:48] <roc> I haven't seen it
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  17. # [01:18] <zewt> https://zewt.org/~glenn/github.png
  18. # [01:18] <zewt> happens if "allow pages to choose their own fonts" is unchecked in firefox
  19. # [01:23] <SamB> also happens if you use noscript, no?
  20. # [01:23] <zewt> no idea
  21. # [01:24] <zewt> wouldn't make sense, but noscript doesn't make much sense anyway unless you have to deal with really abusive sites
  22. # [01:25] <SamB> eh, it's a good way to check for graceful degradation ;-P
  23. # [01:25] <SamB> /progressive enhancement
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  62. # [04:04] <roc> zewt: ah, right. Yeah, they're using icon fonts.
  63. # [04:05] <roc> I think we should probably allow pages to specify fonts for PUA characters even when "allow pages to choose their own fonts" is unchecked.
  64. # [04:06] <roc> I'll file a bug
  65. # [04:09] <SamB> these aren't the droids you're looking for!
  66. # [04:09] <roc> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1054817
  67. # [04:10] <SamB> where is the "disvote" option
  68. # [04:16] <astearns> makes sense to me. there's no point (almost by definition) in rendering PUA characters in a different font
  69. # [04:17] <SamB> there are those of us who would prefer to be aware of the meaningless codepoints we are being subjected to, however ...
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  71. # [04:20] <roc> all five of you
  72. # [04:20] <SamB> roc, astearns: also, it would introduce a perverse insentive to use meaningless codepoints when meaningful codepoints exist
  73. # [04:20] * astearns wonders where in the priority of constituencies people concerned with codepoints lies
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  75. # [04:22] <astearns> SamB: I don't find PUA codepoints perverse, so in my mind author intent trumps your particular use case
  76. # [04:23] <astearns> I do see the utility in users choosing their own fonts, when they want
  77. # [04:23] <astearns> but when their fonts are almost guaranteed not to have anything useful to display...
  78. # [04:23] <SamB> astearns: you don't think it's dumb to use a meaningless PUA codepoint when there's a perfectly good non-PUA codepoint for the symbol in question?
  79. # [04:24] <astearns> depends on when there is an alternative. for the icon case we were discussing, my guess is that there often is not an alternative
  80. # [04:24] <SamB> using SVG with a reasonable filename would honestly be more accessible ...
  81. # [04:24] <SamB> (or a ligature trick)
  82. # [04:26] <astearns> I agree - and using an agreed-upon codepoint is preferable to making up your own
  83. # [04:26] <SamB> some browsers just can't render webfonts
  84. # [04:27] <astearns> and some browsers don't run script
  85. # [04:27] <SamB> yeah
  86. # [04:27] <SamB> I know
  87. # [04:27] <astearns> hopefully both of those situations will get less and less relevant
  88. # [04:27] <SamB> also screenreaders will NEVER know WTF those PUA codepoints are supposed to be
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  95. # [04:51] <roc> yeah, but a screenreader can't make sense of a PNG icon either.
  96. # [04:53] <caitp-> a braille display could
  97. # [05:00] <SamB> roc: it could read the filename out, though!
  98. # [05:02] <roc> a braille display can render the glyphs for unknown Unicode codepoints too :-)
  99. # [05:02] <roc> SamB: what if it's a data URL? hate to read that out :-)
  100. # [05:02] <SamB> roc: well don't do that then!
  101. # [05:02] <SamB> of course, github clearly don't CARE
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  124. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> surprised there so far hasn't been much discussion anywhere about the technical claims the blink team has been with regard to pointer events vs touch events
  125. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> except for smaug's reply
  126. # [08:43] <MikeSmith> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JulSep/0052.html
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  163. # [10:16] <annevk> prolly because this was all already sorted behind the scenes
  164. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> annevk: ah
  165. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> open and transparency ftw
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  167. # [10:23] <annevk> I don't really know MikeSmith
  168. # [10:24] <annevk> I don't know enough about UI events and even less about touch specifically
  169. # [10:24] <MikeSmith> yeah me neither
  170. # [10:25] <annevk> But given that touch is mostly for mobile and that's mostly Google/Apple, and pointer events never had buy-in from Apple, ...
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  172. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> right
  173. # [10:25] <annevk> It would work if Apple was doing nothing like Microsoft did with IE6
  174. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> well it seems like for Windows 8 Microsoft has bought into touch
  175. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> even for their desktop OS
  176. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> which they have still quite a lot of market share for
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  178. # [10:26] <MikeSmith> so it's kinda not just about mobile
  179. # [10:27] <MikeSmith> though I guess it's unclear how successful they've been so far with bringing touch to desktop
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  181. # [10:28] <annevk> The only user I know is Domenic
  182. # [10:28] <othermaciej> there’s quite a few touchscreen windows laptops
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  184. # [10:28] <othermaciej> I dunno if anyone actually uses the touch capabilities
  185. # [10:29] <annevk> Yeah, not sure if he uses the touch screen either, he has a keyboard attached
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  187. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> in my limited experience using Windows 8 on a laptop it works a lot better if you use touch instead of trying to use the mouse/pointer
  188. # [10:32] <MikeSmith> it's kind of like, when you're using the pointer, you feel like you're emulating touch actions
  189. # [10:35] <smaug____> oh, this pointer events stuff
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  191. # [10:36] <othermaciej> I think Google is right that there’s a difference between mouse and touch UIs that pointer events handle badly
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  193. # [10:37] <smaug____> blink is happy to say no pointer events, and one reasoning is that webkit doesn't support them, yet they are happy to implement a lot more complicate stuff, which slows down various things and not supported by webkit, web components
  194. # [10:37] <othermaciej> specifically, on touch UI platforms, touches are always captured based on what you touch first - there’s no such thing as swiping your finger across a row of controls and getting their hover effects
  195. # [10:38] <smaug____> othermaciej: pointer events can handle that
  196. # [10:38] <othermaciej> that makes all the leave/in/out machinery and the rule of targeting based on hit testing useless or perhaps even harmful
  197. # [10:38] <smaug____> similar way as touch events
  198. # [10:38] <othermaciej> they do have the capture mode
  199. # [10:38] <smaug____> and pointer events don't have the odd touchList stuff
  200. # [10:38] <smaug____> if one needs touch lists, that can be done within the web app
  201. # [10:39] <smaug____> anyhow, I think pointer events are pretty much dead now
  202. # [10:39] <othermaciej> who knows? Google might change their mind again
  203. # [10:40] <smaug____> that is possible
  204. # [10:40] <othermaciej> their implementation decisions seem kind of mysterious to me
  205. # [10:40] <smaug____> I'm not going to remove pointer events support from Gecko any time soon
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  207. # [10:40] <annevk> othermaciej: yeah, with Apple it's always clearcut
  208. # [10:40] <annevk> ;)
  209. # [10:41] <othermaciej> usually our pattern is we don’t say anything (or actively say no), then we ship it
  210. # [10:41] <smaug____> s/anyhow, I think pointer events are pretty much dead now/anyhow, I think pointer events are pretty much dead for now/
  211. # [10:42] <jgraham> I'm pretty sure my Mum would use a tocuhscrren laptop, based on the fact she kept trying to touch things on the screen of my laptop last time she used it. I'm not sure why; I think she just uses a tablet so much that she now assumes all devices work in the same way
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  213. # [10:42] <othermaciej> how do pointer events handle multi-touch?
  214. # [10:43] <othermaciej> separate event for each touch?
  215. # [10:43] <smaug____> right
  216. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I would think that hover could be implemented in touch environments that also had relatively finer-grained proximity-sensor support. My Galaxy S4 has that sort of proximity sensor and some parts of the UI already use it to produce effects on hover -- e.g., you can actually hover over a row of controls and it gives you the hover effects you'd expect
  217. # [10:45] <othermaciej> I can’t remember the whole reason for the TouchList thing, but I think it was invented so you could implement gestures involving multiple touches without having to keep a lot of state to know what was happening with the active touch points
  218. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I would think touchscreen laptops are way more intuitive for first-time computer users -- or for anybody already used to a mobile phone with a touchscreen
  219. # [10:45] <othermaciej> whether it helps with that, I don’t know
  220. # [10:45] <othermaciej> it doesn’t seem like bespoke multitouch gestures has turned out to be much of a thing
  221. # [10:46] <smaug____> indeed
  222. # [10:46] <annevk> foolip: you around?
  223. # [10:46] <othermaciej> it does at least let you avoid accidentally treating an extra touch with fingers already down as an independent tap that activates something
  224. # [10:46] <annevk> foolip: I think I'll make Attr.prototype.value readonly for now in the specification and open a bug about what we should do if that cannot be implemented
  225. # [10:47] <annevk> foolip: if that cannot be done we can basically do the thing where Attr objects can be added to objects and Attr objects can be created, etc. and have an ownerElement
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  227. # [10:48] <smaug____> pointer events have the concept of primary pointer
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  237. # [11:03] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah. In this case she's familiar with the concept of non-touch-screen devices but just assumed that any new device is touch-capable. However there are an increasing number of people who have never used a non-touch device.
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  239. # [11:08] * zcorpan recalls a video of a 2-year old concluding that the paper magazine is broken because it doesn't respond to touch
  240. # [11:14] <zcorpan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXV-yaFmQNk
  241. # [11:15] <zcorpan> 1 year old
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  277. # [13:25] <foolip> annevk: here!
  278. # [13:25] <annevk> yay
  279. # [13:25] <annevk> foolip: see bugmail :-)
  280. # [13:25] <foolip> will do
  281. # [13:25] <foolip> also, we have a fullscreen issue here
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  283. # [13:26] <foolip> things get weird when you have display:none on a parent of the fullscreen element
  284. # [13:26] <foolip> the spec says "It is not rendered if it, or an ancestor, has the display property set to none." and that's pretty much what happens
  285. # [13:27] <foolip> the consequence on a site we've been debugging is that one is left in fullscreen even though the fullscreen content isn't showing any longer
  286. # [13:27] <foolip> don't know how to fix it, so I wanted to ask if there's a great reason why things in the top layer don't ignore display:none on their parents?
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  288. # [13:29] <annevk> that would be a first in CSS
  289. # [13:29] <foolip> yeah, I suspected as much
  290. # [13:29] <annevk> and on the face of it seems like it might destroy a bunch of optimizations in the CSS engine
  291. # [13:30] <foolip> and exiting fullscreen would require reacting to changes in computed style
  292. # [13:31] <annevk> i guess at some point we might get a computed style observer thingie that would make that possible
  293. # [13:32] <foolip> wild idea: an extra backdrop which you can't make transparent that ends up below the ::backdrop pseudo elements, so that you can never see anything other than the :fullscreen element and its children?
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  295. # [13:33] <annevk> seems like that is something we want to be able to show though
  296. # [13:34] <foolip> right now you can fullscreen some random element and set it to display:none, and it looks like you've entered fullscreen for documentElement or document.body, it's pretty weird
  297. # [13:35] <foolip> but it also only seems to happen when the site has done something strange (in this case didn't consider that it might be in fullscreen even though it had a fullscreen button)
  298. # [13:37] <foolip> are there use cases for doing that kind of thing, or is it just consequence of keeping things simple?
  299. # [13:38] <annevk> keeping things simple I guess
  300. # [13:38] <annevk> e.g. :root { display:none } is possible too
  301. # [13:40] <foolip> yeah
  302. # [13:40] <foolip> we'll try to get the site fixed and see if the problem keeps coming up
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  304. # [13:41] <foolip> to the bugmail
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  324. # [14:26] <annevk> foolip: :-(
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  327. # [14:27] <annevk> So what remains? Attributes can't have child nodes
  328. # [14:27] <annevk> And they are not nodes, although whether that matters much is up for debate now
  329. # [14:29] <foolip> annevk: yeah, getting rid of the child nodes is the only remaining simplification I'm aware of
  330. # [14:29] <foolip> there's a relevant use counter for that, let me find it
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  332. # [14:30] <foolip> Attr.textContent: http://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/349
  333. # [14:30] <annevk> Attributes not being nodes also simplifies some stuff as other algorithms don't have to deal with the fact of being passed an Attr node
  334. # [14:30] <foolip> so textContent would have to be made an alias at the very leat
  335. # [14:30] <annevk> foolip: we could support that as an alias to .value
  336. # [14:30] <annevk> seems like it
  337. # [14:31] <foolip> not sure how to effectively measure if child nodes themselves are needed
  338. # [14:31] <annevk> does Chrome even support that?
  339. # [14:31] <annevk> that means attr.appendChild(text) is supported
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  341. # [14:31] <foolip> modifying child elements causes the attribute value to be updated last I checked
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  343. # [14:32] <foolip> it's really weird :)
  344. # [14:32] <annevk> oh, some weird hack?
  345. # [14:32] <annevk> hmm
  346. # [14:32] <annevk> and going through childNodes?
  347. # [14:32] <annevk> I guess I can check myself
  348. # [14:33] <foolip> Attr::childrenChanged in Source/core/dom/Attr.cpp
  349. # [14:33] <foolip> not so crazy implementation-wise, but it's a crazy API for changing attributes
  350. # [14:33] <foolip> I guess you knew that
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  352. # [14:35] <foolip> I guess as a start one could measure in Attr::childrenChanged, but getting rid of only that while still keeping the child nodes doesn't seem great
  353. # [14:35] <zcorpan> annevk: did you switch away from anolis?
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  365. # [14:53] <zcorpan> maybe we need an Exif5 spec
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  369. # [15:02] <annevk> zcorpan: no
  370. # [15:03] <annevk> TabAtkins: I started updating DOM again btw
  371. # [15:03] <zcorpan> annevk: ok
  372. # [15:03] <annevk> TabAtkins: since you never pinged back on switch to Bikeshed
  373. # [15:05] <annevk> zcorpan: I do plan on switching to what TabAtkins made as it seems better maintained
  374. # [15:05] <annevk> zcorpan: I have not made the time however and I think there's a few things it does differently at the moment that make switching harder
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  386. # [15:38] <annevk> foolip: I think I'll try to leave out some of the *NS methods as they just don't seem used and do actually make things more complicated
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  391. # [15:48] <foolip> annevk: they do? which ones?
  392. # [15:48] <annevk> foolip: setAttributeNodeNS, getAttributeNodeNS, but I guess we could leave those too
  393. # [15:48] <annevk> foolip: createAttributeNodeNS
  394. # [15:49] <annevk> euh, createAttributeNS()
  395. # [15:50] <foolip> I have no love for any of those, but what complexity do they add on top of the non-namespaced variants?
  396. # [15:52] <annevk> yeah you're right
  397. # [15:52] <annevk> :-( :-(
  398. # [15:53] <foolip> there aren't enough sad faces to throw at Attr
  399. # [15:53] <foolip> do you know who came up with this API to begin with?
  400. # [15:54] <foolip> or is it hidden in a teleconf from 1995?
  401. # [15:58] <annevk> the Java guys involved in designing the DOM
  402. # [15:58] <annevk> and then they added all the complexity for XML in a nonsensical manner
  403. # [15:58] <annevk> so crazy
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  410. # [16:05] <foolip> web platform is best platform
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  424. # [16:31] <TabAtkins> annevk: Oh right, sorry. I'd stopped while we worked out the header/footer situation with Domenic for Streams, and never got back to it.
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  427. # [16:37] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Re: not staying logged in, use an incognito window?
  428. # [16:38] <TabAtkins> smaug____: (You have to stay logged in for *some* period of time just to use multiple pages at once, so you're just asking for the ability to auto-logout after a much shorter period than normal.)
  429. # [16:38] <smaug____> TabAtkins: right, private browsing mode should work
  430. # [16:39] <smaug____> I'm asking for a mode where I would be logged out automatically after closing top level Google (not search) tabs
  431. # [16:39] <smaug____> well, even search
  432. # [16:40] <smaug____> because search just doesn't need the account information for anything
  433. # [16:40] <smaug____> (except for targeted ads, which are super annoying )
  434. # [16:41] <TabAtkins> I don't see how that's possible, actually. Pages can't maintain state like that.
  435. # [16:41] <TabAtkins> Without something like storing all state on the server and doing heartbeat pings.
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  439. # [16:44] <annevk> Isn't that sessionStorage?
  440. # [16:45] <jgraham> Or you could use a shared worker
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  446. # [16:54] <annevk> foolip: you still want to fix bugs in Chrome I think
  447. # [16:55] <annevk> foolip: e.g. what it does for var x = document.createAttribute("test:test");w(x.localName) is pretty weird
  448. # [16:55] <annevk> foolip: Chrome doesn't throw for document.createAttributeNS("test:test") which is somewhat odd too
  449. # [16:59] <Domenic> The great Attr retreat of 2014 :(
  450. # [17:01] <annevk> Domenic: haven't given up completely yet, but yeah, we're adding back some complexity to the spec
  451. # [17:01] <Domenic> Yeah, was just a sad set of emails to wake up to
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  455. # [17:09] <TabAtkins> annevk: Hmm, sessionStorage doesn't apply across domains.
  456. # [17:10] <TabAtkins> (Also, it's a variant of localStorage, which we don't like.)
  457. # [17:11] <TabAtkins> Using a Shared Worker is possible. A lot of complexity for something solved by "use an incognito window", though.
  458. # [17:11] <boogyman> TabAtkins: sub domains i could see, but i think there would have security issues if data-storage occurs across domains.
  459. # [17:15] <TabAtkins> I meant subdomains too.
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  465. # [17:26] <annevk> There's issues with "subdomains" too: https://publicsuffix.org/
  466. # [17:26] <annevk> Which is why we tie things to origins
  467. # [17:26] <annevk> new things, anyway
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  471. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> oh joy http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2014Aug/0063.html
  472. # [17:38] <MikeSmith> ーHTML either misuses or fails to appropriately use the well-defined vocabulary terms of URIs used in all other Web-related standards, including the recent updates of RDF [4] and HTTP [5], and the newly published CoAP [6]. Where I would expect to see terms like "URI Reference" and "IRI", I see only "URL", which in the strictest sense would be incompatible with RDF's IRIs.
  473. # [17:39] <Domenic> Hehehehehe
  474. # [17:41] <TabAtkins> And then talk about "some legacy pages" being broken in favor of RDF-based apps, as if the numbers were within even a few powers-of-ten of each other.
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  480. # [17:51] <Domenic> https://twitter.com/mikeal/status/501391405714268161
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  501. # [18:28] <annevk> MikeSmith: I wonder when they notice we dropped DTDs
  502. # [18:28] <annevk> Domenic: that's how we implement ES6 at Mozilla it seems
  503. # [18:28] <annevk> (Although we wouldn't call HTML HTML5)
  504. # [18:29] <Domenic> Yeah, it's not the most informed tweet, but its heart is in the right place.
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  506. # [18:31] <annevk> Whenever I make nice cleanup to DOM it's somewhat upsetting all my hard work is just going to be copypasted to /TR/dom/. So far there's been no benefit from this fork...
  507. # [18:31] <annevk> Arguably TR/encoding/ had some benefit, although not sure whether it was worth the cost, probably not
  508. # [18:33] <annevk> Hixie_: dfn.js seems to sometimes overwrite dfnReturnLink with a link to the chapter
  509. # [18:35] <Hixie_> file a bug, i'm off tools work until i get the script stuff done
  510. # [18:35] <Hixie_> (i figured i'd spent enough time without progress for a while!)
  511. # [18:36] <Hixie_> that semantic-web e-mail is awesome
  512. # [18:36] <Hixie_> "though I'm not aware of any such documents"
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  515. # [18:39] <zenparsing> can/should we try to get these in the 420 branch?
  516. # [18:39] <zenparsing> uh - oops
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  528. # [18:57] <Domenic> What does /TR/encoding give?
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  533. # [19:02] <annevk> Domenic: got some review from people who otherwise might not have cared
  534. # [19:02] <annevk> Domenic: if I'm being optimistic
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  537. # [19:04] <SamB> annevk: did they add bugs to /TR/dom/ ?
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  541. # [19:06] <annevk> mostly confusion, perhaps some subsetting, not sure
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  557. # [19:36] <Hixie_> huh
  558. # [19:36] <Hixie_> ES6 module loader doesn't support incremental loading, either
  559. # [19:36] <Hixie_> which means it won't work for HTML imports
  560. # [19:38] <annevk> Ah yeah, just a promise...
  561. # [19:38] <annevk> That is kind of sad
  562. # [19:40] <Hixie_> i suppose I can make 'fetch' return straight away for html imports
  563. # [19:40] <Hixie_> but i can't incrementally add dependencies then
  564. # [19:41] <annevk> Hixie_: is any browser vendor interested in reconciling all these systems btw?
  565. # [19:41] <annevk> Hixie_: I haven't seen many emails from implementers in these threads :/
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  567. # [19:42] <Hixie_> are there are browser vendors interested in implementing two separate dependency systems?
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  570. # [19:46] <Hixie_> actually i guess it's ok
  571. # [19:46] <Hixie_> it doesn't need to return straight away
  572. # [19:46] <Hixie_> it can just create it incrementally in "fetch"
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  574. # [19:47] <Hixie_> "translate" would and "instantiate" would be no-ops
  575. # [19:47] <Hixie_> this assumes we can add dependencies on the fly, of course
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  598. # [20:18] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: CSS doesn't parse incrementally, right?
  599. # [20:18] <Hixie_> at least, not visibly
  600. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> Right.
  601. # [20:18] <Hixie_> k
  602. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> Well...
  603. # [20:18] <Hixie_> uh oh
  604. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> Actually, not sure. Some impls *might* start applying rules as they come off the wire.
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  606. # [20:18] <Hixie_> wait, applying rules incrementally?
  607. # [20:19] <Hixie_> i just meant parsing exposed to the dom
  608. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> Oh, no, definitely not. Stylesheet is all or nothing.
  609. # [20:19] <Hixie_> applying rules incrementally seems rather ungood
  610. # [20:19] <Hixie_> ok good
  611. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> Hixie_: Merging all the thread responses together really did make it impossible to follow.
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  613. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> That's fine to do when you're responding to a collection of independent months-old things, but not when you're replying to your own threads that are currently active.
  614. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> Totally breaks threading. :/
  615. # [20:21] <Hixie_> yeah, seems that way
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  617. # [20:22] <Hixie_> the list seems to the throttling me though
  618. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> Weird.
  619. # [20:22] <Hixie_> there's at least two e-mails i've sent that haven't made it to the list
  620. # [20:23] <Domenic> +1 to TabAtkins's feedback on not breaking threading
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  626. # [20:32] <Hixie_> and now i'm not receiving jjb's responses either
  627. # [20:32] <Hixie_> i see them on http://esdiscuss.org/1
  628. # [20:32] <Hixie_> waah, the list software doesn't like me!
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  637. # [20:40] <Hixie_> So.....
  638. # [20:40] <Hixie_> Domenic: promise question
  639. # [20:41] <Hixie_> Domenic: say you have promises #1 through #5, and you want to wait for all of them to be done before continuing
  640. # [20:41] <Hixie_> Domenic: you can just make a new promise that's the "all" of those five promises, right?
  641. # [20:41] <Domenic> Hixie_: yes exactly
  642. # [20:41] <Hixie_> Domenic: ok. Now what if you later discover that actually #3 isn't needed, so you just want to depend on #1, #2, #4, and #5. Also, you need to add #6. How do you update the promise?
  643. # [20:42] <Domenic> Yeah, at that point you have to write your own combinator
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  645. # [20:42] <Domenic> Notably, if 1,2,3,4,5 all came back, you can't add #6
  646. # [20:42] <Domenic> since once a promise has settled it no longer changes state
  647. # [20:42] <Hixie_> sure, if it's already resolved then whatever
  648. # [20:43] <Hixie_> so here's my problem
  649. # [20:43] <Hixie_> i already have this All promise. the ES6 module loader makes it for me.
  650. # [20:43] <Hixie_> I need to dynamically modify it later.
  651. # [20:43] <caitp> modify it?
  652. # [20:44] <Domenic> One way I can think of is making #3 a "proxy" promise. So that if you determine you need #3 after all, you resolve the proxy with #3. But if you don't want it, you resolve it with undefined or something.
  653. # [20:45] <Domenic> Not sure about adding latter...
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  656. # [20:46] <Hixie_> i can't control #3 either, that's also created by the ES6 module loader
  657. # [20:46] <Hixie_> and it's a real promise, it might be hte "#6" of another "all" promise, or whatever
  658. # [20:47] <Hixie_> e.g. if someone tweaks the dependencies so that A depends on D instead of C, and B depends on C instead of D.
  659. # [20:47] <caitp> i'm confused by what is meant by wanting to modify the promise ._>
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  662. # [20:50] <Hixie_> caitp: i just explained it abve?
  663. # [20:50] <Hixie_> caitp: see where i said "So....." and the next four lines from me
  664. # [20:50] <caitp> sounds like something like the "some" approach vs all
  665. # [20:50] <caitp> but not exactly
  666. # [20:50] <Domenic> Yeah, I mean, I don't think this is really an issue where promises can give you what you want inherently; you need the spec patched to allow you to do a custom combinator instead of all()
  667. # [20:51] <Hixie_> yeah, that was my assumption
  668. # [20:51] <Hixie_> pity
  669. # [20:55] <caitp> complicated flow control has always kind of sucked with that particular abstraction, but it's doable
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  671. # [20:58] <caitp> but, for what it's worth, you don't really need the promise spec patched in order to implement that or talk about it in a whatwg spec
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  675. # [21:01] <Hixie_> caitp: not the promise spec, the module loader spec
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  679. # [21:02] <caitp> if the module loader as written isn't really implementable because they're too specific about how it needs to work, that sounds like a bug in harmony :> but otherwise it sounds like an implementation detail that could be solved any number of ways
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  682. # [21:03] <Hixie_> it's implementable fine, the problem is i want to support use cases it doesn't handle
  683. # [21:03] <Hixie_> like dynamically changing the dependencies
  684. # [21:03] <zenparsing> right - it assumes that the dependency graph is static
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  689. # [21:10] <zenparsing> the linkage graph is static, to be more precise
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  694. # [21:23] <caitp> how would you much such a graph dynamic though? is what I'm failing to see
  695. # [21:24] <caitp> even using the import/load methods of Reflect.Loader, wouldn't evaluation of the scripts be deferred until each static module is loaded?
  696. # [21:24] <caitp> s/much/make/
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  701. # [21:38] <Hixie_> zenparsing: we're probably gonna need to fix that
  702. # [21:38] <Hixie_> caitp: see es-discuss
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  704. # [21:41] <zenparsing> Hixie_ in a ideal world, might it make more sense to have the host (HTML) define a dependency system and let the embedded scripting language hook into that? instead of the other way round?
  705. # [21:42] <Hixie_> in an ideal world, HTML and the scripting language would be one coherent thing and we'd have one dependency system
  706. # [21:42] <Hixie_> but in a world where we have design barriers, i don't think it's particularly important which side hooks into which
  707. # [21:43] <Hixie_> so long as the implementors don't have to implement two :-)
  708. # [21:47] <caitp> so your issue is that you want the context which uses html imports to be aware of when the imported html's script modules are loaded, and have a way to access the loaded modules?
  709. # [21:49] <zenparsing> Hixie_ does the ES side consider this unification important (yet)?
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  718. # [21:55] * Topic is 'http://www.whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
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  753. # [22:22] <Hixie_> annevk: you around?
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  756. # [22:23] <boogyman> caitp: maybe an override to the default "index.<some extension"
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  761. # [22:27] * Joins: Sleepyvic (~Ludovic@pub160-137.mobius.fr)
  762. # [22:27] <Sleepyvic> Hi !
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  766. # [22:30] <Sleepyvic> anyone here ?
  767. # [22:30] <boogyman> no
  768. # [22:31] <Sleepyvic> ok I'm new to irc, i'm testing it
  769. # [22:31] <Sleepyvic> :)
  770. # [22:31] <boogyman> welcome
  771. # [22:31] * Joins: tj_vantoll1 (~Adium@2601:4:5380:2ec:b077:89b2:e58a:dbe2)
  772. # [22:31] <Sleepyvic> thanks
  773. # [22:31] <Hixie_> there's some people here
  774. # [22:32] <Sleepyvic> what's going on here on this channel ?
  775. # [22:32] <Hixie_> right now, not much!
  776. # [22:32] <Hixie_> but generally we chat about web standards that we're implementing or speccing
  777. # [22:32] <Hixie_> or testing
  778. # [22:32] <Hixie_> or reviewing
  779. # [22:32] <Sleepyvic> ok I found this channel on a tutorial on how to use irc
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  782. # [22:33] <Sleepyvic> but i'm not into whatever you're saying
  783. # [22:33] <Sleepyvic> sounds like chinese to me :)
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  785. # [22:33] <Hixie_> :-)
  786. # [22:33] <Hixie_> what tutorial?
  787. # [22:34] <Sleepyvic> http://kernelmeltdown.org/blog/how-to-set-up-irc-using-hexchat-beginners-walkthrough/
  788. # [22:34] <Sleepyvic> and
  789. # [22:34] <Sleepyvic> http://code.tutsplus.com/tutorials/irc-is-back-heres-your-starter-guide--net-31369
  790. # [22:35] <caitp> oh man, you found an exciting channel
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  795. # [22:36] <Sleepyvic> really how exciting is it ?
  796. # [22:36] <boogyman> Sleepyvic: feel free to sit around here if you wish, but you can also type /msg alis help list and follow the instructions there to help find other channels.
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  801. # [22:37] <Sleepyvic> No i'm gonna look for another channel
  802. # [22:37] <Sleepyvic> take care guys
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  805. # [22:38] <caitp> oh man, you guys almost caught a fresh one
  806. # [22:38] <caitp> so close.
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  808. # [22:39] <boogyman> (s)he'll get caught in the interwebs. It is all seeing after all.
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  810. # [22:40] <TabAtkins> I just submitted a comment on the second article suggesting that #whatwg be taken off the list of "awesome channels for web developers".
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  812. # [22:45] <caitp> where else are they gonna hang out? the web development community is so tiny
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  814. # [22:47] <boogyman> caitp: not according to the numerous one-offs of channels (and thats just on freenode).
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  816. # [22:47] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: oh? i thought it was pretty good that we'd get exposed to web devs
  817. # [22:47] <wanderview> :
  818. # [22:48] <wanderview> oops
  819. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> It was in a list of channels where it's appropriate to ask "how do I web?" questions, of which this is not one.
  820. # [22:48] <caitp> I emit a lot of sarcasm, boogyman, it takes practice to notice it thoguh
  821. # [22:48] <caitp> also a lot of typos.
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  826. # [23:00] <annevk> Hixie_: anything important?
  827. # [23:00] <charl> exit
  828. # [23:00] <charl> bah sorry, wrong window :)
  829. # [23:00] <TabAtkins> And typo!
  830. # [23:00] <Hixie_> annevk: just curious about the new fetch apis
  831. # [23:00] <Hixie_> annevk: nothing urgen
  832. # [23:00] <Hixie_> t
  833. # [23:01] <annevk> Hixie_: anything unclear in the draft?
  834. # [23:01] <annevk> Hixie_: I haven't tried figuring out the <img>.request thing yet, there's an open bug now, but there seem to be some tricky bits since both HTML attributes and some object would control request state, which is always icky (see e.g. .style)
  835. # [23:02] <Hixie_> annevk: My first question was going to be: what's with the Request() constructor taking both a Request and a RequestInit
  836. # [23:02] <Hixie_> annevk: yeah, that's the source of my interest.
  837. # [23:02] <Hixie_> annevk: mostly I'm curious about whether you're going to be exposing dependency tree info and priority info for HTTP2
  838. # [23:02] <Hixie_> annevk: (both of those are mutable during the request, iirc)
  839. # [23:03] <annevk> Hixie_: the idea behind passing in a request is for service workers
  840. # [23:03] <Hixie_> annevk: (so not just at init time)
  841. # [23:03] <annevk> Hixie_: e.g. you have fetchEvent.request and then you pass that to fetch() or a cache.add(); you would then use RequestInit to modify some stuff if any
  842. # [23:03] <Hixie_> annevk: ah, ok
  843. # [23:04] <annevk> Hixie_: my idea for things mutable during the fetch was to have methods on Request that invoke some cross-process action
  844. # [23:04] <Hixie_> annevk: so why does the other form of "new Request()" take a URL and a dict? why not the URL in the dict?
  845. # [23:05] <annevk> Hixie_: a URL is required, everything else is optional
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  847. # [23:05] <annevk> (well everything else can have sensible defaults)
  848. # [23:05] <Hixie_> aah
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  850. # [23:05] <Hixie_> so anyway, you're thinking we'd expose a .request object?
  851. # [23:06] <Hixie_> and that would have like img.request.changePriority(25) ?
  852. # [23:06] <annevk> at a high-level, yes, at a low-level I'm not sure how it'll work yet
  853. # [23:06] <Hixie_> i don't know enough about HTTP2's dependency stuff to have useful comments on that
  854. # [23:06] <annevk> yeah, something like that
  855. # [23:06] <annevk> for priorities anyway
  856. # [23:06] <Hixie_> k
  857. # [23:06] <annevk> and queryPriority() or something I guess with promises
  858. # [23:07] <Hixie_> so the UA is the one who would create that Request
  859. # [23:07] <annevk> yeah, the spec for the <img> element would set it up
  860. # [23:07] <Hixie_> so logically, we could have src="" and src-request-init="{ priority: 25; ... }"
  861. # [23:07] <Hixie_> and whenever you would create the Request, you'd actually pass that in
  862. # [23:07] <annevk> yeah
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  864. # [23:07] <Hixie_> no race, which is nice
  865. # [23:07] <Hixie_> well, there's a race
  866. # [23:07] <Hixie_> but there's a well-defined time at which it is used
  867. # [23:07] <Hixie_> so interop should be ok
  868. # [23:08] <annevk> yeah, as long as we define the task and such
  869. # [23:08] <Hixie_> and then after that the attribute would be pointless
  870. # [23:08] <annevk> that might be good yes
  871. # [23:08] <Hixie_> do you know the bug# or have a search keyword i can find the bug with?
  872. # [23:08] <annevk> I was wondering what to do if someone modified Request, that was the tricky bit
  873. # [23:08] <annevk> or accessed .request and then set a crossorigin attribute
  874. # [23:08] <Hixie_> well presumably once the request is in flight it's mostly immutable, no?
  875. # [23:09] <annevk> Hixie_: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26533
  876. # [23:09] <Hixie_> other than, like, the priority or whatever HTTP2 lets you chagne
  877. # [23:09] <annevk> Hixie_: currently Request is mostly immutable actually
  878. # [23:09] <Hixie_> lgtm
  879. # [23:09] <annevk> Hixie_: so yeah, depending on the specifics of the HTML side it might all work out fine
  880. # [23:10] <annevk> Hixie_: there were some requests to make it more mutable before the fetch happens so you could modify things in the service worker more easily
  881. # [23:10] <annevk> Hixie_: but there's already various modes for at least the Headers object so we can always shield things off
  882. # [23:10] <Hixie_> oh creating the request doesn't triger it?
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  884. # [23:10] <annevk> Hixie_: no
  885. # [23:10] <Hixie_> ah ok
  886. # [23:10] <Hixie_> how do you actually trigger it?
  887. # [23:10] <annevk> you pass a Request to fetch()
  888. # [23:10] <annevk> which returns a promise for a Response
  889. # [23:10] <Hixie_> should we be creating the Request object earlier then? for <img> and co?
  890. # [23:11] <annevk> well yeah, that's the open question
  891. # [23:11] <annevk> but then you get into the problem of .request vs setting crossorigin
  892. # [23:11] <Hixie_> seems to me like it'd be saner to only do it once you do the fetch
  893. # [23:11] <annevk> I hadn't figured out a good story there
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  898. # [23:15] <Hixie_> ok, commented on the bug
  899. # [23:17] <annevk> cool, ttyl
  900. # [23:19] <Hixie_> later
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  911. # [23:48] <bholley> Hixie_: yt?
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  925. # Session Close: Tue Aug 19 00:00:01 2014

The end :)