/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-08-21 / end

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  34. # [01:31] <Domenic> annevk: sorry missed HSTS question. I dunno really anything about HSTS. I think the cert was $15 so.…
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  150. # [08:03] <zcorpan_> should we sync animations in SVG in <img>?
  151. # [08:03] * birtles_ is now known as birtles
  152. # [08:04] <birtles> I think they should have their own separate timelines
  153. # [08:04] <birtles> separate <svg> roots within a single <html> already do
  154. # [08:10] <zcorpan> gif is synced though
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  181. # [09:31] <Ms2ger> Anyone got a spec for Last-Modified header parsing?
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  187. # [09:53] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: i checked some RFC when there was a related wpt PR but it doesn't define parsing
  188. # [09:54] <zcorpan_> also involved Date() parsing :-)
  189. # [09:57] <Ms2ger> Yeah, I saw
  190. # [09:57] <Ms2ger> That's Servo implementing document.lastModified ;)
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  192. # [10:07] <Ms2ger> "W3C Invites Implementations of HTML Canvas 2D Context"
  193. # [10:07] <Ms2ger> Says funny
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  197. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> it means W3C is inviting all the existing implementations of canvas to a party
  198. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> they just left that part out for brevity in the headline
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  200. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> you need to read the full thing
  201. # [10:14] <Ms2ger> I see
  202. # [10:15] <Ms2ger> I think I've got blame for Servo's implementation :)
  203. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> in that case the rule is that your implementation has to buy all the beer for the other implementations
  204. # [10:16] <Ms2ger> :D
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  206. # [10:17] <jgraham> Maybe W3C is talking directly to the servo team with this call to implementations stuff
  207. # [10:17] <jgraham> After all we're the only people a decade behind the state of the art
  208. # [10:18] <jgraham> Perhaps when HTML5 goes to Rec someone will finally decide to implement navigation in servo
  209. # [10:18] <Ms2ger> Yep
  210. # [10:18] <Ms2ger> You :)
  211. # [10:20] <jgraham> Well, at risk of going all "meme" I do sometimes seem tot be the only one around here that gives a shit about document loading ;)
  212. # [10:20] <jgraham> But you really don't want me implementing it :)
  213. # [10:21] <Ms2ger> It's more that you convinced me how much work it'd be :)
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  215. # [10:22] <smaug____> Domenic: will you change the streams spec to some readable form at some point ? ;)
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  217. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> smaug____: Don't worry I heard he's planning on rewriting it in the style of the ES spec
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  221. # [10:59] <smaug____> iik
  222. # [10:59] <smaug____> and isn't it a bit like that already
  223. # [11:02] <jgraham> smaug____: I hope MikeSmith was joking
  224. # [11:03] <jgraham> Although I guess you never know…
  225. # [11:12] <annevk> zcorpan_: SVG in <img> should use the animation frame task
  226. # [11:13] <zcorpan_> annevk: what does that say about the timelines being in sync?
  227. # [11:16] <annevk> zcorpan_: not much I guess, sorry
  228. # [11:18] <annevk> Well this is something new http://www.operasoftware.com/press/releases/mobile/2014-08-21
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  234. # [11:28] <zcorpan_> why does xref have "the blockquote element" as a term rather than "blockquote"?
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  237. # [11:39] <annevk> zcorpan_: feel free to fix things as you see fit
  238. # [11:39] <annevk> zcorpan_: most of the HTML element related references are for the document you are editing I think
  239. # [11:40] <zcorpan_> ok
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  251. # [12:51] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: can you create a bugzilla component "HTML - <script>alert('LOL')</script>" ?
  252. # [12:52] <zcorpan_> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/query.cgi click WHATWG product
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  254. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: http://instagram.com/p/r0eJp3PW7G/
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  256. # [13:07] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: i think it's showOptionInIE() in field.js doing optionNode.innerHTML = aNode.data;
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  258. # [13:19] <JakeA> annevk: is there a collective name for things that can be controlled by a SW?
  259. # [13:20] <JakeA> There's ServiceWorkerClient, but is it defined outside of SW?
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  263. # [13:37] <annevk> JakeA: clients was the idea I thought
  264. # [13:37] <annevk> JakeA: SW needs to define all this terminology
  265. # [13:37] <annevk> JakeA: and clients are global objects
  266. # [13:37] <annevk> JakeA: which is why I think a DedicatedWorker ought to be controlled
  267. # [13:38] <annevk> So far the spec does a pretty poor job of outlining the underlying model
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  269. # [13:48] <JakeA> gotcha. Will make a ticket
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  271. # [13:53] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/query.cgi
  272. # [13:54] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: it was innerHTML which doesn't run script :-(
  273. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> ah
  274. # [13:54] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: showOptionInIE() in field.js doing optionNode.innerHTML = aNode.data;
  275. # [13:56] <JakeA> annevk: Opened https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/423 to decide whether DedicatedWorkers are a client
  276. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: ah ok I see now you said that earlier
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  279. # [14:10] <annevk> JakeA: we should also make sure that everything is backed by some concept
  280. # [14:10] <annevk> JakeA: e.g. how Request objects are backed by the request concept
  281. # [14:13] <JakeA> annevk: not familiar with this pattern, where's the request concept?
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  286. # [14:21] <annevk> JakeA: http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-request
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  290. # [14:26] <annevk> foolip: let me know when I start blocking you
  291. # [14:26] <annevk> foolip: working on some other things, but I can make time
  292. # [14:28] <JakeA> annevk: basically a description of the underlying properties/flags?
  293. # [14:29] <annevk> JakeA: it's basically a definition of how the system works, and the API reflects parts of the system
  294. # [14:30] <annevk> JakeA: e.g. fetch() itself is not much, most of the actual meat is in #concept-fetch
  295. # [14:30] <JakeA> gotcha
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  313. # [15:10] <annevk> why are registerContentHandler and registerProtocolHandler not on caniuse?
  314. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> foolip: has anybody implemented datacue?
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  328. # [16:05] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2014/08/registerprotocolhandler anyone have pointers to more about this?
  329. # [16:05] <annevk> I'm planning on filing some bugs on Gecko to see if we can make some improvements to make it more attractive
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  331. # [16:05] <annevk> Or should we just forget about it altogether? I'm a bit on the fence
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  334. # [16:20] <MikeSmith> annevk: I think it's worth investing some work in UI ideas. I've always liked registerProtocolHandler since whenever I first found out about in 2006 is whatever. I've think others do too (even if we don't hear from them so much)
  335. # [16:25] <MikeSmith> (like as in, think it's a pretty useful feature to have in the platform)
  336. # [16:43] <gsnedders> odinho: me + some not entirely clear group of people are going to Mustard at 6:30; I guess you won't want food, but feel free to drop by later if you want to get a drink if you're free.
  337. # [16:44] <jgraham> gsnedders: Your friends are translucent?
  338. # [16:44] <gsnedders> jgraham: shut up you
  339. # [16:45] <annevk> gsnedders: in Oslo?
  340. # [16:45] * annevk misses Nøgne Ø
  341. # [16:46] <annevk> (also friends :p)
  342. # [16:46] <jgraham> Also beer prices?
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  344. # [16:47] <gsnedders> annevk: yeah
  345. # [16:47] <gsnedders> jgraham: don't mention the cost :'(
  346. # [16:47] <annevk> jgraham: well, Zürich ain't much better
  347. # [16:47] <annevk> although it is a bit, I guess
  348. # [16:47] <Domenic> irccloud uses registerProtocolHandler I think? It works pretty well, although I don't find too many irc:// links on the web to click on.
  349. # [16:47] <gsnedders> annevk: well yeah, you just seem to like spending time in expensive places
  350. # [16:48] <odinho> gsnedders: oh, nice! 18.30 you say.
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  352. # [16:52] <gsnedders> odinho: yeah
  353. # [16:53] <richt> annevk: Always wondered if the process of registering new protocol handlers could be permissionless and browsers could instead provide a picker UI when registered protocol types are invoked...
  354. # [16:54] <gsnedders> do any mobile platforms support registerProtocolHandler at an OS level?
  355. # [16:54] <gsnedders> well I presume Fx OS does, but anything else?
  356. # [16:55] <annevk> richt: Firefox has both
  357. # [16:55] <annevk> richt: with a checkbox to select a default
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  359. # [17:01] <foolip> annevk: I still have some non-spec issues to work out, but the sooner the spec changes are made the sooner I can find the next round of bugs :)
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  361. # [17:02] <foolip> MikeSmith: WebKit has it actually
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  363. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> foolip: ok
  364. # [17:03] <MikeSmith> wonder what's blocking it from landing in blink. I seem to remember there being a patch
  365. # [17:04] <foolip> don't know if it's enabled though
  366. # [17:04] <MikeSmith> ok
  367. # [17:04] <foolip> MikeSmith: the intent to implement never went anywhere
  368. # [17:04] <MikeSmith> I see
  369. # [17:05] <MikeSmith> as far as gecko, there's not even a bug open for datacue as far as I can see
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  371. # [17:09] <richt> annevk: oh cool.
  372. # [17:10] <richt> annevk: has opt-out instead of opt-in been considered before? the browser says '[domain] has registered to open all [type] links?' with the option to 'Undo' that.
  373. # [17:10] <richt> + a picker UI on invocation of course.
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  376. # [17:13] <caitp> one day, the wikipedia article for the world wide web is going to have an opening paragraph like "the world wide web is a vast collection of dialog boxes asking you to opt into or out of specific features, where the wrong selection will make your experience a complete waste of time"
  377. # [17:13] <caitp> and nobody will be able to read it before opting into or out of thousands of different features
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  379. # [17:16] <jgraham> Much like the android article today, you mean?
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  384. # [17:26] <JakeA> Domenic: just noticed https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/battery/Overview.html#widl-Navigator-getBattery-Promise-BatteryManager
  385. # [17:26] <JakeA> Domenic: that should be a getter rather than a method right? It returns the same object each time
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  387. # [17:32] <caitp> for the brief period before `await` is supported, all of these asynchronous apis are going to be really fun for people to deal with
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  391. # [17:33] <JakeA> yeeep
  392. # [17:33] <JakeA> await should be fast-tracked IMO
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  394. # [17:34] <Domenic> JakeA: I think the motivation for being a method was that it will likely have side effects, e.g. a permission prompt or booting up the battery-tracking mechanism or similar.
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  397. # [17:36] <JakeA> Domenic: I don't think it requires permission, but fair point on the tracking mechanism
  398. # [17:37] <Domenic> JakeA: yeah, I guess not. The model in https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/battery/Overview.html#security-and-privacy-considerations is more that the browser will give the website bogus data if it doesn't trust the website.
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  403. # [17:43] <Ms2ger> Is there any spec for file:// sniffing?
  404. # [17:44] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: sniffing what? MIME?
  405. # [17:44] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  406. # [17:45] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: do they not use OS level stuff? isn't xdg-mime used on Linux, at least?
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  408. # [17:46] <Ms2ger> Well, I don't know, that's why I ask :)
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  410. # [17:46] <Ms2ger> Manishearth, ^
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  413. # [17:49] <Manishearth> Ms2ger: should we be doing that then? Shouldn't be hard to write bindings for xdg-mime, but then we need to get it done on OSX too
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  419. # [17:57] <annevk> richt: I don't think it has, but that seems wrong to reuse that infobar for opt out
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  426. # [18:09] <Ms2ger> Heh
  427. # [18:10] <Ms2ger> Running Aryeh's IDL-extraction code on HTML yields
  428. # [18:10] <Ms2ger> interface TextTrackCueReady for first implementationsLatest Internet Explorer beta: unknownLatest Firefox trunk nightly build: unknownLatest WebKit
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  469. # [19:18] <JakeA> annevk: Any idea what Mozilla's opinion on the quota API is? We need something for cache
  470. # [19:21] <annevk> JakeA: I don't really like the concept of quotas for storage
  471. # [19:22] <annevk> JakeA: not sure if we have a general opinion, there's not enough research done I think to really show what works well
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  475. # [19:25] <JakeA> annevk: is there an alternate proposal?
  476. # [19:26] <annevk> I think there's a proposal from Alex about telling apps when they need to free up space
  477. # [19:26] <annevk> not concrete
  478. # [19:26] <annevk> But something like that was my idea was, if users use an application a lot, we try to keep the space it uses in tact
  479. # [19:27] <annevk> if the app is not often used and not marked in some way (e.g. bookmarked) we'd trash it
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  481. # [19:28] <JakeA> Worried about something like tripit, that gets infrequent use but it's very important that it retains info
  482. # [19:28] <JakeA> I guess something like add-to-homescreen would be a signal there
  483. # [19:28] <annevk> yeah things like that
  484. # [19:28] <annevk> or use of the password manager or whatever
  485. # [19:29] <annevk> asking users about storage seems like a really dumb idea to me
  486. # [19:30] <JakeA> hmm, but telling developers "yeah we might dump all the data you told the user you'd make-work-offline, depends on heuristics"
  487. # [19:31] <JakeA> doesn't build trust in the web as a platform
  488. # [19:31] <JakeA> "If you want the data stored reliably, build a native app" etc etc
  489. # [19:31] <annevk> PhistucK guy o_O
  490. # [19:33] <annevk> JakeA: well, Alex' proposal was to ask applications to free up data
  491. # [19:33] <annevk> JakeA: and note that we're talking about filling up the entire disk here
  492. # [19:33] <annevk> JakeA: native apps have that problem too
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  494. # [19:34] <annevk> JakeA: just typically there's enough storage space, not sure why that'd be less true here for the things users care about
  495. # [19:35] <smaug____> JakeA: btw, "take" is used some times to indicate a resource isn't available for other stuff
  496. # [19:36] <JakeA> annevk: I suppose the OS could ask the user to prioritise what I want to keep. If I got into space issues, I wouldn't want the browser to dump the 4gb of movies I wanted to watch on plane, rather than the combined 4gb of dumb games that I didn't even know were that large
  497. # [19:36] <smaug____> so perhaps takeAsJSON or such
  498. # [19:36] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, the OS/browser could ask the user the moment you run into the problem
  499. # [19:37] <annevk> JakeA: prolly listing the largest origins at the top
  500. # [19:37] <JakeA> smaug____: doesn't feel streamy, but it is shorter, which I like. The amount of fingerskin I lose over querySelectorAll…
  501. # [19:37] <annevk> then the user can make an educated decision
  502. # [19:37] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, that makes sense
  503. # [19:37] <annevk> the user can't really make an educated decision about bytes
  504. # [19:38] <annevk> that's from the old days, like how large you want to make a certain partition
  505. # [19:38] <annevk> brr
  506. # [19:38] <smaug____> consume doesn't sounds streamy to me ;)
  507. # [19:38] <smaug____> consume sounds like going to shopping something useless
  508. # [19:39] <JakeA> annevk: in the Chrome impl I think it talks in terms of "small" … "very large amount of space" to the user when it comes to permission. The wording can be judged by bytes & space available
  509. # [19:39] <caitp-> probably an apt analogy really
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  512. # [19:39] <JakeA> annevk: but I'm happy to go with the "just take the space" approach
  513. # [19:40] * caitp- is now known as caitp
  514. # [19:41] <JakeA> smaug____: If I heard "I'm consuming", I would assume eating/drinking first. Is that a British thing?
  515. # [19:41] <caitp> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer
  516. # [19:42] * smaug____ is not a native English speaker and has been horrified about climate change recently, so 'consume' has certainly some negative associations to him
  517. # [19:42] <smaug____> JakeA: btw, 'take' has been used elsewhere in the platform, http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-mutationobserver-takerecords
  518. # [19:42] * annevk only cares about "body"
  519. # [19:42] <smaug____> not sure about consume
  520. # [19:42] <annevk> takeBodyAsJSON()
  521. # [19:42] <annevk> wfm
  522. # [19:42] <annevk> isBodyTaken
  523. # [19:43] <JakeA> caitp: consumer means shopping to me. But not the verb "consume".
  524. # [19:43] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: vh and vw are relative to the page box in paged media.
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  526. # [19:44] <JakeA> annevk: I prefer take to consume.
  527. # [19:44] <annevk> JakeA: reply to WHATWG list?
  528. # [19:44] <annevk> nobody else seems to care so far today
  529. # [19:44] <annevk> at least not about that thread
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  531. # [19:45] <caitp> whichever word you go with, you're going to have people who get it, and people who just scratch their heads and wonder how the heck anyone ever came up with a name like that
  532. # [19:46] <annevk> well they can look it up in the archives
  533. # [19:46] <smaug____> and blame me
  534. # [19:46] <smaug____> which is fine
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  536. # [19:48] <annevk> smaug____: hard to attack a dragon
  537. # [19:49] <annevk> JakeA: I'll reply
  538. # [19:49] <JakeA> annevk: Just sent
  539. # [19:49] <annevk> ah k
  540. # [19:50] <annevk> thanks
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  555. # [20:25] <Domenic> smaug____: ya streams spec is going to become more readable later. Algorithms are still going to specified in ES style, but they will be surrounded with enough useful padding and text. https://whatwg.github.io/streams/ is the skeleton for that
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  560. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Out of curiosity, would it be possible to just write the algos in JS, with the appropriate wordsmithing to ensure you have the initial versions of built-ins/etc?
  561. # [20:33] <Domenic> TabAtkins: well, sorta. I use a lot of internal slots, and a few promise "macros".
  562. # [20:34] <Domenic> Also, some common algorithms get factored out into common abstract operations, and saying that those operations are "JS functions" has unwanted implications.
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  573. # [21:37] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: okay, that's what I thought, which makes the caniuse note wrong
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  575. # [21:42] <annevk> JakeA: for your TLS efforts you might want to read up on https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26332#c50 and earlier/later comments
  576. # [21:44] <annevk> JakeA: Netflix is not really willing to entertain TLS for content delivery it seems
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  580. # [21:55] <Hixie_> annevk: what're the use cases for the getBodyAsX methods?
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  582. # [21:57] <annevk> Hixie_: to get access to the body of a response or request
  583. # [21:57] <annevk> Hixie_: e.g. what we have xhr.response for
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  587. # [22:02] <Hixie_> annevk: isn't xhr.response enough?
  588. # [22:02] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: what do you think of a feature like <div needs="foo bar"> <script id=foo src=...></script> <link rel=stylesheet id=bar href=...>, where the <div> doesn't render until the dependencies are met?
  589. # [22:03] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: maybe with :ready and :loaded pseudos?
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  596. # [22:18] <annevk> Hixie: oh well, it's also if a service worker gets a request, that it can ready the form data
  597. # [22:18] <Hixie> ready the form data?
  598. # [22:19] <Hixie> why would the service worker be sending back form data
  599. # [22:20] <caitp> why not
  600. # [22:20] <Hixie> i don't understand
  601. # [22:21] <caitp> I make a FormData and create some task which passes it to the service worker, who later ships it off at some scheduled time
  602. # [22:21] <caitp> why not
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  604. # [22:24] <caitp> maybe the form data is the contents of an email that I wrote, but can't send right now because I'm in a train underground, and the service worker will try to get rid of it when it can 〜(￣▽￣)〜
  605. # [22:24] <Hixie> i don't understand the relevance of what you're saying to what annevk and i are talking about
  606. # [22:24] <caitp> it's impossible to have total relevance because there's context missing
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  608. # [22:25] <caitp> but based on the words you're using, there is a relevance
  609. # [22:25] <Hixie> oh well if we're just free-associating...
  610. # [22:25] * Hixie wonders if maybe anne meant "read" instead of "ready"
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  612. # [22:26] <caitp> no no, we aren't replacing words or meanings, we're using the words and meanings as they're presented, but without your context
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  614. # [22:30] <annevk> Hixie: document has <form>, service workers wants to know what the user filled in
  615. # [22:31] <annevk> Hixie: oh yeah, read
  616. # [22:31] <annevk> my bad
  617. # [22:31] <Hixie> annevk: ok, i get the use case for service worker seeing the body of the request
  618. # [22:31] <Hixie> annevk: is the response case just redundant with xhr?
  619. # [22:32] <annevk> yeah I suppose, although you can have responses for <img href=crossorigin> although obviously reading those is not going to work
  620. # [22:32] <annevk> well
  621. # [22:32] <annevk> you might get a response out of a cache
  622. # [22:33] <annevk> and then read it for templating purposes
  623. # [22:33] <annevk> so I guess they really need it even if we only had XHR, and then fetch() is really nice glue to have as well, and covers the <img href=crossorigin> case
  624. # [22:39] <annevk> Domenic: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/372#issuecomment-52922105 reply by email doesn't really work it seems
  625. # [22:39] <Domenic> annevk: thanks... usually I just have to clean up everything after my comment, but this time I tried interleaving :(
  626. # [22:39] <Domenic> I think it depends on there being a "sent from my iPhone" or something.
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  632. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I think the idea is intriguing, and might help with some of the FOUC issues that Web Components have.
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  634. # [22:54] <Hixie> TabAtkins: k. i think i'm gonna shelve it for v2 for now, but keep it in mind when you read my upcoming epic
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  636. # [22:55] <Hixie> TabAtkins: as it is written with that expansion path in mind
  637. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> Sure.
  638. # [22:57] <Hixie> Domenic: if i have an array of promises, and want a promise that's done when all of them are done, what's the magic word?
  639. # [22:57] <Hixie> i want, like, new Promise(promiseArray).then(function () { ... })
  640. # [22:57] <Domenic> Hixie: Promise.all (PromiseAll in spec language) will work, assuming that if any of them fail you want the new promise to fail
  641. # [22:58] <Hixie> Promise.all(promiseArray).then(function () { ... }) ?
  642. # [22:58] <Domenic> yep.
  643. # [22:58] <Hixie> k
  644. # [22:58] <Domenic> you can get even get an array of results
  645. # [22:58] <Hixie> don't care about results
  646. # [22:58] <Hixie> :-)
  647. # [22:58] <Hixie> the result is success/fail
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  651. # [22:58] <Domenic> horse_#whatwg
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  655. # [22:59] <caitp> that's not what you were saying the other day, I thought you were saying you just wanted the all promise to succeed, but without the rejected intermediate one
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  657. # [22:59] <caitp> succeed/be fulfilled
  658. # [23:00] <Hixie> this may come as a surprise, but sometimes i want different things
  659. # [23:00] <Hixie> for example in the morning i want breakfast, but at night, dinner!
  660. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> I don't understand. With pizza on a bagel, you can have pizza anytime. Why would you want anything different based on time of day?
  661. # [23:04] <Domenic> ^ that
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  665. # [23:09] <caitp> heh, I don't keep up with all of the different promise needs of different people, that would be too much! so when I see you talking about flow control concerns with Promise.all twice in the same week, my general assumption is that you're still talking about the same thing and thus want the same outcome
  666. # [23:10] <caitp> so yeah it's a bit surprising, if I had the ability to keep track of everyones issues simultaneously it would be easier ;)
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  684. # [23:47] <Hixie> hmm, i wonder how exciting it will be to set document.currentScript correctly for modules
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  686. # [23:50] <Domenic> modules aren't scripts, so no need? :)
  687. # [23:51] <Hixie> it'd be unfortunate if you couldn't do:
  688. # [23:51] <Hixie> <div>
  689. # [23:51] <Hixie> <script type=module>
  690. # [23:51] <Hixie> import "myrelevantmodule";
  691. # [23:51] <Hixie> document.currentScript.parentNode.className = 'ready';
  692. # [23:51] <Hixie> </script>
  693. # [23:51] <Hixie> ...and so on
  694. # [23:51] <Domenic> i really don't think that'd be unfortunate.
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  700. # Session Close: Fri Aug 22 00:00:00 2014

The end :)