/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-08-26 / end

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  53. # [00:56] <caitp-> Hixie: it kind of amazes me that I'm saying this, but one of the nice things about the ES specs is the tendency to give blocks in instructions (like loops, or case statements, etc) into nested lists, so it's a bit easier to read and visualize. It would be really nice if that could be done for the html stuff ._.
  54. # [00:57] <caitp-> as it is I usually end up copy/pasting it into a text editor and laying it out like that manually, which is time consuming :>
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  56. # [00:58] <Hixie> html does do that quite a lot
  57. # [00:58] <Hixie> if you have any specific cases that are hard to understand, file a bug
  58. # [00:58] <caitp-> will do
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  61. # [01:10] <gsnedders> erlehmann: I know
  62. # [01:10] * caitp- is now known as caitp
  63. # [01:11] <gsnedders> erlehmann: it's not my server, and nobody's bullied me into fixing it yet, and I've been pretty busy :P
  64. # [01:11] <gsnedders> erlehmann: pull requests welcome!
  65. # [01:11] <erlehmann> gsnedders how could i exploit it?
  66. # [01:11] <gsnedders> erlehmann: mostly it seems like private html files on the server are the risk
  67. # [01:12] <gsnedders> erlehmann: not that likely to be many
  68. # [01:14] <erlehmann> hmm ._.
  69. # [01:14] <gsnedders> erlehmann: still absolutely should be fixed
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  74. # [01:25] <erlehmann> gsnedders just upgrade python.j
  75. # [01:25] <erlehmann> i bet the new urllib has it fixed.
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  90. # [01:36] <gsnedders> erlehmann: I don't want to have to maintain my own version of Python!
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  163. # [06:00] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: www.w3c-test.org:82/html/infrastructure/urls/resolving-urls/query-encoding/
  164. # [06:00] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#resolve-a-url
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  166. # [06:06] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23822
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  271. # [11:36] <annevk> working with foolip is the best <3
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  275. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: Can you remind me of there's a reason were sticking with the old version of jetty we're using for the validator
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  278. # [11:49] <foolip> annevk: I love you dearly too, taking a look at the changes now :)
  279. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I ask because, I think the version were using is not even getting security updates any longer
  280. # [11:49] <foolip> or after lunch, *poof*
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  295. # [12:25] <zcorpan_> i wonder what the state of <legend> is these days
  296. # [12:27] <zcorpan_> looks like display:block doesn't work in blink at least
  297. # [12:28] <zcorpan_> <li><p>The <code>figure</code> element now uses a new element
  298. # [12:28] <zcorpan_> <code>figcaption</code> rather than <code>legend</code> because people
  299. # [12:28] <zcorpan_> want to use HTML long before it reaches W3C Recommendation.</li>
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  301. # [12:38] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: what is expected to ever change with the state of legend?
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  304. # [12:51] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: to be stylable like a normal element
  305. # [12:52] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: at least when not in a fieldset
  306. # [12:53] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: and follow http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#the-fieldset-and-legend-elements when it is
  307. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> Ah ok
  308. # [12:55] <zcorpan_> so it seems we still can't reuse <legend> for a new element
  309. # [12:56] <zcorpan_> and it will probably continue to be P5 because nobody cares about future elements not being able to reuse <legend>
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  345. # [15:01] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: i've updated http://platform.html5.org/history/
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  347. # [15:04] * MikeSmith looks
  348. # [15:05] <MikeSmith> excellemente
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  350. # [15:06] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: nice updates
  351. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> hmm the e.g., http://html5.org/r/1115-1153 stuff doesn't work any more
  352. # [15:07] <zcorpan_> thx. i didn't include new copies of the spec though
  353. # [15:07] <zcorpan_> yeah
  354. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> yeah I don't think we need new copies
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  356. # [15:15] <annevk> MikeSmith: sorry, didn't realize anyone was using those links
  357. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> no worries, not sure we really needed them
  358. # [15:16] <annevk> SimonSapin: any updates on the IPv4 stuff?
  359. # [15:19] * Quits: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@103.249.181.147) (Quit: BigBangUDR)
  360. # [15:19] <SimonSapin> annevk: not really
  361. # [15:20] <annevk> SimonSapin: is Rust attempting to solve this somehow?
  362. # [15:22] * Quits: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de) (Quit: davidyezsetz)
  363. # [15:22] <SimonSapin> annevk: when you open a socket with a string for the host Rust’s standard library parses IPv4 and IPv6 addresses, and for things that it considers neither uses the system’s thing for resolving names, which in turn also attempts to parse IPv4 and IPv6 addresses but depending on the system may or may not support exotic v4 formats
  364. # [15:23] <annevk> good times
  365. # [15:23] <SimonSapin> I looked into various POSIX APIs, it seems hard to force a DNS query and bypass the address parsing
  366. # [15:24] <SimonSapin> unless you’re willing to implement DNS yourself, I guess
  367. # [15:24] <foolip> annevk: not sure if I stumbled onto a bigger problem in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26673
  368. # [15:25] <annevk> foolip: not really sure how to solve it yet
  369. # [15:25] <annevk> SimonSapin: sigh
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  372. # [15:27] <foolip> annevk: I think the bigger risk is getting some detached documents with non-empty fullscreen elements stacks, more than spurious fullscreenchange
  373. # [15:27] <SimonSapin> annevk: in any case, I don’t know what’s the right thing to do. There’s a couple of 6 years-old Mozilla bugs about this where people disagree with each other
  374. # [15:28] <annevk> SimonSapin: pointers?
  375. # [15:28] <SimonSapin> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues/1104#issuecomment-48917917
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  377. # [15:30] <erlehmann> annevk fug, why you break links :(
  378. # [15:30] <erlehmann> ._.
  379. # [15:30] <erlehmann> i certainly used one revision link in a blog post
  380. # [15:31] <erlehmann> i don't remember which one
  381. # [15:31] <erlehmann> i should make a private wayback machine
  382. # [15:31] <erlehmann> link rot is becoming too much
  383. # [15:31] <annevk> erlehmann: I need some context
  384. # [15:31] <erlehmann> <MikeSmith> hmm the e.g., http://html5.org/r/1115-1153 stuff doesn't work any more
  385. # [15:32] <erlehmann> <annevk> MikeSmith: sorry, didn't realize anyone was using those links
  386. # [15:32] <erlehmann> maybe
  387. # [15:32] <annevk> erlehmann: ah, right
  388. # [15:32] <erlehmann> annevk i assumed you broke it.
  389. # [15:32] <erlehmann> was it someone else?
  390. # [15:32] <erlehmann> i need to fight link rot. hmm.
  391. # [15:32] <foolip> erlehmann: you don't need a private one, there's "Save Page Now" on http://archive.org/web/
  392. # [15:32] <annevk> erlehmann: all that broke was a sequence of revisions as the tool no longer supports that
  393. # [15:33] <erlehmann> annevk so links to revisions still work?
  394. # [15:33] <annevk> erlehmann: yes
  395. # [15:33] <erlehmann> i think i linked to revisions.
  396. # [15:33] <erlehmann> i am relieved
  397. # [15:33] <annevk> erlehmann: e.g. http://html5.org/r/1115
  398. # [15:33] <erlehmann> ☺
  399. # [15:33] <foolip> linking to a range of revisions doesn't seem useful unless Hixie happened to work on exactly one thing for a long time
  400. # [15:33] <annevk> erlehmann: the hyphen thing was a special feature, not really recommended
  401. # [15:34] <erlehmann> it conflated items into a collection
  402. # [15:34] <erlehmann> interesting
  403. # [15:34] <annevk> foolip: yup
  404. # [15:34] <erlehmann> does any one of you have a plain text blogging system and can link me to it? i want to add multimedia to http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net and have no idea about file structure
  405. # [15:35] <zewt> .plan? heh
  406. # [15:35] <erlehmann> s/plain text/filesystem backed/g
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  409. # [15:36] <erlehmann> zewt i use single level git repositories with html files in it. hipster news 2 generates feed and overview.
  410. # [15:37] <zewt> grr, now firefox is randomly (Not Responding) and i can't tell why
  411. # [15:37] <annevk> foolip: so for fullscreen.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-document-exitfullscreen you basically want that during the iteration to dispatch the events we check if the situation with regards to the amount of elements on the fullscreen element stack has changed?
  412. # [15:38] <annevk> foolip: and if it has changed, we fully exit fullscreen?
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  419. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> foolip: liking to a range of revisions is probably also useful if you're trying to document what things changed during a certain period of time -- which is exactly what http://platform.html5.org/history/ is for. But I guess that's a corner case that not many other people would want to do
  420. # [16:02] <MikeSmith> regardless, I think we could reconstruct it with links to the github html-mirror change history instead
  421. # [16:03] <MikeSmith> if we really wanted to
  422. # [16:04] <MikeSmith> (that is, construct alternative links to replace the ones we had in http://platform.html5.org/history/ to the html5.org generated changelogs that we removed after they broke)
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  424. # [16:08] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: might be more useful to have individual links to commits instead of month or year-long range of commits
  425. # [16:09] <wanderview> JakeA: do you have a sense of how close we are to updating the spec language for the expected Cache/CacheStorage changes?
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  427. # [16:11] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah that would definitely be a lot more useful
  428. # [16:12] <JakeA> wanderview: We're unblocked on streams stuff, just need to get consensus on the API. I'm getting a talk together for jsconf so that's got my focus. I'll see if slightlyoff is free to take over dragging that to consensus for the next couple of weeks.
  429. # [16:12] <JakeA> Don't want to hold up the process, it's been held up enough
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  431. # [16:13] <wanderview> JakeA: ah, ok... thanks for the update... I think I will implement mostly whats currently spec'd with an eye towards the expected changes then
  432. # [16:14] <JakeA> wanderview: I don't expect the querying stuff to change, just .add vs .addAll, .delete vs .deleteAll
  433. # [16:14] <wanderview> I guess i thought there was more consensus on the rest of the spec changes, but I probably skimmed some bits in the thread
  434. # [16:15] <wanderview> JakeA: great, thanks... good luck with the jsconf talk!
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  452. # [16:53] <annevk> JakeA: wanderview: I thought we had consensus on the API?
  453. # [16:53] <annevk> JakeA: wanderview: short method names directly on Response/Request, plus a bodyUsed property
  454. # [16:53] <JakeA> annevk: Talking about the cache API
  455. # [16:54] <annevk> JakeA: wanderview: I guess my plan was to make that change today, might have to wait a bit
  456. # [16:54] <wanderview> annevk: I think JakeA was saying other cache API questions beyond the streams issue
  457. # [16:54] <JakeA> annevk: I'm happy with the Request/Response stuff
  458. # [16:54] <annevk> ok, that's what I get for only reading part of your exchange
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  471. # [17:13] <JakeA> wanderview: What's the story around debugging serviceworker in Firefox?
  472. # [17:14] <wanderview> JakeA: currently not great as far as I know... I believe work is in progress to allow debugging workers at all :-\
  473. # [17:14] <wanderview> let me see if I can find the bug number
  474. # [17:14] <wanderview> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1003097
  475. # [17:15] <wanderview> JakeA: and here is our bug to support ServiceWorkers in devtools: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=943220
  476. # [17:16] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  477. # [17:17] <wanderview> JakeA: asking what the plans/timeline for that work is... we definitely want to support it
  478. # [17:18] <JakeA> wanderview: Cool! Making sure I represent the state-of-things correctly in this jsconf talk. Is there any way to get console logs out of a SW in the interim?
  479. # [17:18] <wanderview> JakeA: console.log is supported in gecko workers, yes
  480. # [17:18] <JakeA> wanderview: Where is it exposed?
  481. # [17:19] <wanderview> JakeA: uh... I think self... let me check
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  486. # [17:23] <smaug____> JakeA: type console.log(123) to the first textarea. http://mozilla.pettay.fi/workerconsole/
  487. # [17:23] <smaug____> the code will be executed in a worker
  488. # [17:23] <smaug____> and log goes to browser console
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  490. # [17:24] <smaug____> (ctrl+shift+k)
  491. # [17:24] <smaug____> s/browser/web/
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  494. # [17:25] <wanderview> smaug____: thanks! I was trying to verify in my mochitest, but I guess we suppress console.log there
  495. # [17:26] * wanderview bookmarks smaug's workerconsole...
  496. # [17:26] <JakeA> Wonder if that works for serviceworker (since they don't have an owner window)
  497. # [17:26] <smaug____> ah, no idea
  498. # [17:26] * smaug____ knows next to nothing about service workers
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  501. # [17:27] <smaug____> hmm, Blink has odd console object
  502. # [17:27] <smaug____> [object WorkerConsole]
  503. # [17:28] <wanderview> JakeA: hmm, thats a good point... I was actually assuming it would work since SW's extend workers
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  505. # [17:30] <wanderview> JakeA: yea, baku confirms that console.log() won't work from a SW because of the missing window... sorry for my confusion
  506. # [17:31] <annevk> wanderview: want to file a bug on that?
  507. # [17:31] <annevk> wanderview: no debugging would be a major pita
  508. # [17:31] <wanderview> annevk: baku is doing that now
  509. # [17:31] <wanderview> I agree
  510. # [17:31] <annevk> yay
  511. # [17:31] <JakeA> wanderview: No worries! Is there any way to get those logs in the meantime, even if they go down to the command line?
  512. # [17:33] <Ms2ger> dump()?
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  514. # [17:33] <Ms2ger> Probably not
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  517. # [17:35] <wanderview> JakeA: can I get back to you tomorrow? I feel like we need to get our plan straight on this... when is your talk?
  518. # [17:36] <JakeA> wanderview: in two week, so no major rush. Want to get as many demos working in Firefox as possible though
  519. # [17:36] <zewt> could you proxy through a shared worker as a workaround?
  520. # [17:37] <wanderview> JakeA: ok, thanks!
  521. # [17:39] <JakeA> zewt: I think shared workers have the same issue. Could send stuff back to the page via a message port, I think that's landing soon in Firefox
  522. # [17:39] <zewt> right, you'd have to open the shared worker from a real document to receive them
  523. # [17:39] <JakeA> wanderview: will update https://jakearchibald.github.io/isserviceworkerready/ in time for the talk too
  524. # [17:42] <wanderview> JakeA: thanks... we have an internal meeting tomorrow morning... going to discuss it there
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  526. # [17:45] <JakeA> zewt: good idea
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  528. # [17:49] <zewt> i'd think that "service workers" would just be a type of shared worker, so you could connect to them like any shared worker
  529. # [17:50] <zewt> like a shared worker url that the browser also knows how to start up on its own
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  547. # [18:14] <dvorapa> Hello! Is there anybody, who could I speak to?
  548. # [18:15] <dvorapa> Could I ask about my new meta extension?
  549. # [18:15] <Ms2ger> You can
  550. # [18:17] <dvorapa> I want to propose meta extension with keyword `version`
  551. # [18:17] <dvorapa> Specification: https://github.com/dvorapa/meta-version
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  554. # [18:21] <annevk> dvorapa: if you're asking for a wiki account I need your desired username and email
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  556. # [18:21] <dvorapa> Okay,username: dvorapa
  557. # [18:21] <dvorapa> email: dvorapa@seznam.cz
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  559. # [18:22] <annevk> dvorapa: "A randomly generated password for Dvorapa has been sent to dvorapa@seznam.cz. It can be changed on the change password page upon logging in."
  560. # [18:24] <dvorapa> annevk: Thank you.
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  600. # [19:40] <Domenic> marcosc_: why does everyone want these separate WakeLock objects... why do we need to be more programmer-footgun-protective than native platforms are.
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  603. # [19:41] <jgraham> People have different expectations from browsing to a website vs running a native app?
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  605. # [19:42] <Domenic> this isn't even on that level
  606. # [19:42] <Domenic> it's "what if multiple pieces of code within the same website want a wake lock"
  607. # [19:42] <Domenic> in native apps they all coordinate to share a per-app lock; if different parts of the code need to coordinate, then they write code to do so
  608. # [19:43] <Domenic> whereas sicking and others think it's important that different parts of the code each get their own lock
  609. # [19:45] <sicking> Domenic: i don't feel strongly. But the editors claim that they care about that use case, but the proposed API doesn't support it
  610. # [19:45] <Domenic> oh, did not realize...
  611. # [19:47] <sicking> but it does seem like unless we specify a standard for how to do this coordination, then the JS world will have to come up with their own standard for it. And not just one standard per library, but rather one "the" standard
  612. # [19:47] <sicking> mmmm..
  613. # [19:48] <sicking> maybe it could work for everyone to do their own solution, if that solution is based on callbacks to the embedder
  614. # [19:48] <sicking> either way, it's a relatively small difference in API complexity
  615. # [19:49] <sicking> either "screen wakelock" is a property on the document, or you can instantiate it using "new"
  616. # [19:50] <sicking> in both solutions the actual API on the lock will be the same
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  621. # [19:57] <Hixie> can someone work out what Axel means in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26669 and add a clarifying comment on the bug?
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  627. # [20:12] <Domenic> not "the" standard, just, if you want to use libraries that use wakelocks, they have to communicate that somehow
  628. # [20:13] <Hixie> anyone have a better term for "media source object" that has neither the words "media source", "media stream", "file", "media resource", "media data", or "blob" in it?
  629. # [20:14] <Hixie> (meaning something that is either a MediaSource, MediaStream, File, or Blob)
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  632. # [20:14] <Hixie> maybe "media provider object"
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  634. # [20:16] <SamB__> too bad interfaces aren't a thing
  635. # [20:16] <Hixie> even if it was an interface it'd still need a name :-)
  636. # [20:16] <SamB__> or I guess those don't actually all implement the same interface anyway
  637. # [20:17] <jgraham> Hixie: I guess he's saying something like <form autofocus="foo"><input id="foo"> would have been a better model
  638. # [20:17] <jgraham> But that's a guess
  639. # [20:18] <SamB__> jgraham: certainly less questions about how to resolve conflicts than with autofocus=yes on individual elements
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  641. # [20:19] <jgraham> SamB__: Arguably an equivalent number of questions <form autofocus=foo><input id=foo><input id=foo>
  642. # [20:20] <Hixie> not to mention <form autofocus=foo></form><form autofocus=bar></form><input id=foo><input id=bar>
  643. # [20:20] <Hixie> jgraham: thanks. commented on the bug.
  644. # [20:20] <SamB__> jgraham: That question is nothing new, though
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  646. # [20:21] <SamB__> Hixie: hmm, okay, that's a better example ;-)
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  650. # [20:26] <Hixie> ("not to mention" is such a dumb phrase)
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  652. # [20:29] <tantek> not to mention "to be honest"
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  657. # [20:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the reason to use an old version of Jetty is that I haven't had the time to update Jetty
  658. # [20:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: we should keep updating Jetty
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  660. # [20:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: fortunately, the security bugs *usually* don't affect the way we use Jetty
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  666. # [20:54] <Hixie> tantek: "to be honest" is slightly better in that it implies that one might have tried to conceal or sugar coat the statement but has decided not to
  667. # [20:55] <tantek> Hixie, good point. I often hear "not to mention" abbreviated these days in speech as "Sooooo… " preceding a statement.
  668. # [20:55] <Hixie> heh
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  674. # [20:56] <SamB__> I guess "not to mention" only makes sense when followed by one or more classes of things that you aren't listing individually
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  730. # [23:51] <JonathanNeal> Hey https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!msg/blink-dev/07v_yMErc_A/WcyKGN1A2y0J
  731. # [23:51] <JonathanNeal> Nice!
  732. # [23:52] <caitp> eh, wouldn't get your hopes up
  733. # [23:53] <caitp> the two replies so far seem pretty conservative about adding it to the platform as a native feature, and probably not even blink-in-js. But, it would be fun to work on, so here's hopin :3
  734. # [23:55] <jsbell> caitp: If you're thinking blink-in-js, then start with a polyfill.
  735. # [23:55] <JonathanNeal> blink in js?
  736. # [23:55] <jsbell> JonathanNeal: Implementing bits of blink in JS.
  737. # [23:56] <caitp> it might come to that, but the features I've implemented so far have been smaller in C++ than the mix of C++ boilerplate + private scripts
  738. # [23:56] <jsbell> e.g. lets say we didn't have 'window.atob()'; take a polyfill, ship it with the browser, but with appropriate security sprinkles.
  739. # [23:57] <JonathanNeal> oh you mean like a browser extension?
  740. # [23:58] <jsbell> JonathanNeal: "like" as in: same security concerns for JS code needing to run in what we call isolated worlds. But from a browser user's perspective it's a feature that ships with the browser and happens to be implemented in C++ rather than JS
  741. # [23:58] <jsbell> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XvZdAF29Fgn19GCjDhHhlsECJAfOR49tpUFWrbtQAwU/edit#slide=id.g3840fe06e_00
  742. # [23:59] <caitp> I think, if we do end up getting it to support custom data and custom sort predicates, then a Blink-in-JS implementation is essentially impossible :(
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  744. # [23:59] <caitp> because of those security concerns
  745. # Session Close: Wed Aug 27 00:00:00 2014

The end :)