/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-10-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 07 00:00:01 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:01] <tantek> annevk - will do
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  7. # [00:06] <hober> Hixie annevk: how hard would it be to set up an automatic redirect, for individual message urls anyway, to http://www.w3.org/mid/${MESSAGE_ID}
  8. # [00:09] <tantek> and w3c bugzilla is busted for me - logins don't work
  9. # [00:09] <tantek> nor does password reset
  10. # [00:10] <Hixie> hober: sadly, we have zero control over that domain
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  12. # [00:12] <tantek> fine I'm putting it on the whatwg.org wiki then
  13. # [00:12] <tantek> since even whatwg emails are archived at w3c now
  14. # [00:13] <hober> :(
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  17. # [00:15] <tantek> new section: https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/URL#Requests_and_Issues
  18. # [00:15] <tantek> new request: https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/URL#How_to_compare_URLs
  19. # [00:15] <tantek> thanks again annevk
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  24. # [00:21] <Domenic> TabAtkins: was there a nicer way to do long abstracts in Bikeshed than prefixing "Abstract: " before each line? E.g. using indentation?
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  40. # [00:43] <Hixie> tantek: you really should figure out what's up with your bugzilla setup, its been broken for months
  41. # [00:44] <tantek> I suppose I can ping sysreq again about it.
  42. # [00:46] <tantek> I try to avoid W3C's bugzilla, and tracker too.
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  57. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Domenic: As long as lines are blank or start with whitespace, they're assumed to be a continuation of the previous metadata value.
  58. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Domenic: Written in the docs. ^_^
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  70. # [01:37] <aklein> Hixie: you around? got a bit of a puzzling foster parenting situation
  71. # [01:37] <Hixie> sure
  72. # [01:38] <aklein> I'm interested in the parsing of "<body><a><table><a>"
  73. # [01:38] <aklein> what's interesting about it is that the foster-parenting algorithm manages to attach the second <a> to the first <a> even though it's already been "closed"
  74. # [01:39] <Hixie> so <a> is _really_ magical
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  76. # [01:39] <Hixie> even more than most magical elements
  77. # [01:40] <Hixie> does your original question depend on the <a> magic or is that a distraction?
  78. # [01:40] <aklein> I'm not really sure yet
  79. # [01:40] <Hixie> ok
  80. # [01:40] <aklein> well, it's definitely related
  81. # [01:40] <Hixie> actually in this case i think the magic doesn't matter
  82. # [01:40] <Hixie> the short answer is, the first <a> isn't closed
  83. # [01:40] <Hixie> the <table> is in it
  84. # [01:41] <aklein> but we process a fake end tag for it!
  85. # [01:41] <aklein> let me go read the spec, I've been reading Blink code
  86. # [01:41] <Hixie> well, that's the magic i was talking about
  87. # [01:41] <Hixie> the end tag is ignored iirc
  88. # [01:41] <aklein> maybe this is a Blink bug then
  89. # [01:41] <aklein> how is the fake end tag ignored?
  90. # [01:42] <Hixie> well it's not really ignored
  91. # [01:42] <Hixie> it's just that the foster parenting is using the original <a> regardless
  92. # [01:44] <Hixie> you can see this magic in comparing these:
  93. # [01:44] <aklein> even though it's not on the stack of open elements...
  94. # [01:44] <Hixie> <a><table><a></table><i> vs <b><table><b></table><i>
  95. # [01:45] <Hixie> notice how in the first one, the third <a> is a sibling of the first one
  96. # [01:45] <Hixie> whereas in the second one, the third <b> is a child of the first
  97. # [01:46] <aklein> interesting...
  98. # [01:46] <aklein> so as it turns out the fragment I'm really interested in is "<template><a><table><a>"
  99. # [01:49] <aklein> which is causing blink to attach the second <a> to the template contents, rather than to the first <a>
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  103. # [01:54] <aklein> Hixie: hmm, Gecko gets this right, we really may just have a Blink bug here
  104. # [01:54] <aklein> Hixie: sorry for the premature noise
  105. # [01:54] <Hixie> oh no worries, that's what i'm here for :-)
  106. # [01:54] <Hixie> if you decide it's a spec bug let me know
  107. # [01:54] <aklein> sure
  108. # [01:54] <Hixie> i don't guarantee the template stuff is bug free in the spec :-)
  109. # [01:55] <caitp> html parsing is arguably one giant spec bug that can never be fixed
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  111. # [01:55] <aklein> Hixie: I'm going to try re-implementing this bit of logic with what the spec says and I'll see what I get
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  116. # [02:19] <Domenic> aklein: I think Hixie has his own Pascal parser that should give something close to canonical
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  123. # [02:30] <crocket> Is it ok to put two footers in a section of a page?
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  128. # [02:34] <Domenic> crocket: yes. e.g. https://developers.whatwg.org/sections.html#the-footer-element shows two footers for the whole page; i can assume it also works for a section
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  130. # [02:38] <crocket> Domenic, Is it ok semantically to put two footers in a sectioning content?
  131. # [02:39] <Domenic> crocket: yes
  132. # [02:39] <crocket> Domenic, The link you gave doesn't seem to imply that.
  133. # [02:40] <Domenic> crocket: it does how i read it. The first example, plus the way it always refers to "footers" and "a footer"; not e.g. "the footer"
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  135. # [02:42] <Domenic> Plus more concretely there is no special restriction for footers outside of the restrictions for flow content
  136. # [02:42] <crocket> Domenic, How do two footers change semantics?
  137. # [02:42] <aklein> Hixie: confirmed it's a Blink bug
  138. # [02:42] <crocket> It'd be different semantically than one footer in <article>
  139. # [02:43] <Domenic> Yes … it means the section or article has two footers … that is indeed different than having one footer.
  140. # [02:45] <crocket> Domenic, Is it better to put <section>s in one footer semantically?
  141. # [02:46] <Domenic> They mean different things… two separate footers (neither of which creates a new subsection) versus one footer with two subsections. "better" depends on what you're trying to convey
  142. # [02:47] <crocket> Domenic, What is the meaning of a footer or two?
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  144. # [02:48] <Domenic> Two footers means … two footers. Two separate sets of " information about its section such as who wrote it, links to related documents, copyright data, and the like."
  145. # [02:48] <Domenic> Maybe one is the legal footer and the other is the bibliography footer
  146. # [02:49] <Domenic> I gtg, hope this was helpful…
  147. # [02:49] <crocket> Domenic, Thanks!!!
  148. # [03:01] <aklein> Hixie: Blink's foster parenting seems to be quite a bit out of step with the current spec. I'm curious if you happen to know when the requirement of the table's parentNode being an element went away (a requirement enforced in Blink by http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/blink/trunk/LayoutTests/fast/parser/foster-parent.html)
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  152. # [03:03] <aklein> Gecko seems to enforce that same requirement
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  154. # [03:03] <aklein> so there may be a spec bug here, just not in the template stuff itself but related to it
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  235. # [07:49] <Hixie> aklein: i would imagine it went away when we introduced <template>
  236. # [07:50] <Hixie> aklein: since otherwise foster parenting in <template> would drop nodes left right and center
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  261. # [09:12] <zcorpan> Hixie: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/embedded-content.html#attr-img-srcset says Chrome 40+ but should be Chrome 38+
  262. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm beginning to wonder if we shouldn't just merge all the other validator github repos into the https://github.com/validator/validator repot
  263. # [09:22] * Joins: Mso150 (~ctlM@80.83.239.29)
  264. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: to make things easier for users/contributors, so that they have just one place to submit PRs and issues, rather than 5
  265. # [09:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: and to make maintenance easier, etc.
  266. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: or maybe it would be too disruptive at this point, or just not so necessary really
  267. # [09:28] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, blame caniuse?
  268. # [09:28] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: caniuse has it supported in 38..40
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  279. # [09:59] <zcorpan> can someone come up with a versioning scheme that doesn't suffer from the 10 problem? https://twitter.com/charmoto/status/519252143723667456
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  281. # [09:59] <annevk> euhm, don't expose version numbers as strings?
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  283. # [10:00] <zcorpan> yeah i guess that would help
  284. # [10:01] <annevk> maybe only as a query interface; is() isgt() islt()
  285. # [10:02] <annevk> I wouldn't be surprised if people still managed to mess that up though
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  288. # [10:02] * tantek can't wait for HTML10
  289. # [10:03] <hasather> zcorpan: base 1
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  294. # [10:12] <darobin> tantek: I fully expect that all informative references will be to stable documents by then
  295. # [10:14] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2014Oct/ o_O
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  300. # [10:20] <annevk> karlcow: http://webcompat.com/ doesn't use TLS
  301. # [10:20] <annevk> karlcow: is there a bug on that?
  302. # [10:22] * annevk finds https://github.com/webcompat/webcompat.com/issues/72
  303. # [10:23] <tantek> annevk I thought this was spot on: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2014Oct/0021.html
  304. # [10:23] <zcorpan> annevk: file it on webcompat
  305. # [10:24] <annevk> tantek: yeah that was too bad. Although that Art got that impression is also a sign that something is amiss.
  306. # [10:25] <annevk> zcorpan: seems miketaylr already did
  307. # [10:25] <annevk> zcorpan: asked if they could up the priority
  308. # [10:25] <tantek> annevk - plenty of things suboptimal / amiss. Stating someone else's position as mal-intent is counter-productive. That issue was way out of line.
  309. # [10:26] <jamesr__> hmm, some specs expose permission denied as being different from other errors but i think most do not
  310. # [10:26] <tantek> I should point out that OpenStand itself does not follow OpenStand principles.
  311. # [10:26] <annevk> I don't think Art would overstate it without being seriously annoyed already
  312. # [10:26] <annevk> He's very reasonable normally
  313. # [10:27] <annevk> So there's probably more to it
  314. # [10:27] <jamesr__> my inclination would be to not distinguish permission denied by the user from other errors
  315. # [10:27] <tantek> annevk - in my personal experience Art is reasonable in person, but that's not the first time that an online interaction (whether tracker or email) was unreasonable.
  316. # [10:27] <jamesr__> but is there a general principle here?
  317. # [10:27] <annevk> jamesr__: permission denied does not seem like an exceptional case to me
  318. # [10:27] <annevk> jamesr__: but I don't think there's a general principle
  319. # [10:30] <annevk> jamesr__: e.g. I don't think Notification.requestPermission() should reject if the user says no, but there's a long debate on the WHATWG list about what exactly should happen there
  320. # [10:30] <annevk> jamesr__: I think it should reject if you invoke it with "TEST" as argument, since that's clearly wrong
  321. # [10:31] <jamesr__> my question is more about the Notification.permission attribute
  322. # [10:31] <jamesr__> what's the value of the transition from "default" to "denied" to the user? should we expose that the user clicked "no" vs ignored it or did something else?
  323. # [10:32] * tantek closes the w3process thread.
  324. # [10:32] * tantek … window.
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  326. # [10:33] <annevk> jamesr__: if the value is "denied", the application will have no need to offer UI to allow the user to enable it
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  328. # [10:36] <annevk> jamesr__: "denied" might be persisted, or active for the duration of the "session"
  329. # [10:37] <jamesr__> well my actual question was about http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html#position_error_interface
  330. # [10:38] <jamesr__> seems odd to expose the difference between PERMISSION_DENIED and POSITION_UNAVAILABLE
  331. # [10:40] <annevk> UNAVAILABLE seems like you would be able to try again
  332. # [10:41] <annevk> The geolocation API is rather sad looking at this point
  333. # [10:42] <annevk> Hmm, how is matchMedia() a problem for Blink, but watchPosition not?
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  343. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I e-mailed you with background info and more specific details on the idea of merging the ithub validator repos into a single repo that I pinged you about here earlier
  344. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> jgraham: If we do merge the vnu repos I guess it might make sense to move all the tests there too -- that is, out of wpt and into there instead
  345. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I mean just the conformance-checkers/ tests -- which were from the beginning an odd duck instead of wpt. I'd hoped that putting them tehre would encourage more people to contribute to them, but that hasn't happened and isn't likely to going forward either. So I guess it would make sense to just move them
  346. # [11:07] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, wfm
  347. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: ok
  348. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> I wonder if zcorpan has an opinion either way
  349. # [11:08] <zcorpan> wat?
  350. # [11:09] <jgraham> zcorpan: MikeSmith wants your opinions. On anything!
  351. # [11:09] <zcorpan> ah. don't mind moving them
  352. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> k
  353. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> it has the downside of making them seem implementation-specific to vnu -- which they're not of course
  354. # [11:12] <MikeSmith> but the reality there is, nobody has yet created another modern HTML-spec conforming validator engine, and it doesn't seem like anybody's likely to be doing so any time soon
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  356. # [11:14] <jgraham> MikeSmith: If you really cared they could live in their own repo and be pulled in as a submodule, but it probably isn't worth the pain
  357. # [11:14] <jgraham> zcorpan: The version numbering scheme you're looking for is TeX
  358. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> jgraham: we got too many submodules on wpt already :)
  359. # [11:21] <zcorpan> jgraham: TeX -> Tex82 -> TeX 3.0 -> Tex n→π ?
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  361. # [11:26] <karlcow> annevk: not yet. But you found already the issue.
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  363. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> jgraham: if we move the validator tests, would/could you be able to hook critic up to it?
  364. # [11:30] <karlcow> zcorpan: for versioning without the 10 issue. Ⅰ Ⅱ Ⅲ Ⅳ Ⅴ Ⅵ Ⅶ Ⅷ Ⅸ Ⅹ
  365. # [11:30] <karlcow> romans had thought about everything
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  367. # [11:32] <karlcow> though I guess people would start making mistakes with ⅩⅩ
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  372. # [11:38] <zcorpan> maybe if you use ascii to represent roman numbers it would force people to support variable number of chars
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  385. # [11:59] * smaug____ assumes there isn't still any consensus about throwing from methods which return a Promise
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  394. # [12:27] <annevk> smaug____: there is, they reject
  395. # [12:28] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Yeah, I can hook up critic
  396. # [12:28] <jgraham> annevk: Seems more like "consensus amongst the people who agree" :)
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  398. # [12:29] <annevk> jgraham: Hixie changed the spec
  399. # [12:32] <jgraham> OK
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  401. # [12:38] <smaug____> annevk: ?
  402. # [12:39] <smaug____> invalid params sure throw in bindings level
  403. # [12:39] <annevk> smaug____: no they don't
  404. # [12:39] <smaug____> whaat?
  405. # [12:40] <annevk> RTFS?
  406. # [12:40] <smaug____> Say I have some Promise<foo> addNode(Node foo); and call addNode(window);
  407. # [12:41] <Ms2ger> smaug____, that rejects the promise
  408. # [12:41] <smaug____> the exception would be reported using a Promise?
  409. # [12:41] <smaug____> that is crazy
  410. # [12:41] <smaug____> totally crazy
  411. # [12:41] <Ms2ger> smaug____, Hixie has been fighting that for months
  412. # [12:41] <Ms2ger> smaug____, but the people who agree agree this is best
  413. # [12:42] <smaug____> the the param validation depends on whether the method returns a Promise or not?
  414. # [12:42] <smaug____> that would be horrible inconsistency
  415. # [12:42] <Ms2ger> Correct
  416. # [12:43] <smaug____> this Promise nonsense is going too far ;)
  417. # [12:52] <smaug____> totally crazy
  418. # [12:53] * smaug____ should stay away from APIs using Promises
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  429. # [13:01] <smaug____> soo crazy
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  431. # [13:02] <smaug____> now code may end up doing random stuff after calling some method, since the basic param validation related error is reported asynchronously
  432. # [13:03] <smaug____> such basic error should be caught as early as possible, to prevent anything else to happen
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  445. # [13:49] <zcorpan> Hixie: opera mobile and blackberry browser are not in the caniuse boxes.
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  454. # [14:05] <jgraham> zcorpan: Hixie said he limited to 12 by marketshare. Not sure why if there are only 14
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  466. # [14:28] <MikeSmith> jgraham: what were you saying about PFWG earlier? something about consensus?
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  468. # [14:28] <annevk> darobin: https://github.com/jan-ivar/mediacapture-main/commit/9e472bd2fa7894d89af6fe3c6a5340d5a90a36a5
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  470. # [14:32] <zcorpan> mathiasbynens: https://mathiasbynens.be/notes/html5-details-jquery doesn't have a green lock
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  472. # [14:34] <annevk> Hmm, different browsers using different security indicators is not great
  473. # [14:35] <erlehmann> i bet you only have to have a lock icon as a favicon or something
  474. # [14:36] <erlehmann> http://www.troyhunt.com/2011/07/padlock-icon-must-die.html
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  477. # [14:43] <zcorpan> erlehmann: browsers don't put the favicon in the address bar these days, do they?
  478. # [14:43] <erlehmann> zcorpan i bet you can have the lock anywhere :D
  479. # [14:44] <erlehmann> and i don't know, let me check
  480. # [14:44] <erlehmann> i use conkeror
  481. # [14:44] <zcorpan> wonder if there's a lock in unicode. a green lock would be nice for a subdomain
  482. # [14:45] <erlehmann> fortunately i happen to be an expert on the topic
  483. # [14:45] <caitp> "It’s easy – if you want to provide assurance regarding TLS, direct users to inspect the certificate in the browser."
  484. # [14:45] <caitp> > things that your grandma will not do
  485. # [14:45] <zcorpan> U+1F512
  486. # [14:46] <erlehmann> zcorpan look lower left http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/pics/icons/unifont-symbols-emoji.png
  487. # [14:47] <erlehmann> 🔒 displays fine here
  488. # [14:47] <erlehmann> thanks to GNU unifont! :D
  489. # [14:48] <erlehmann> i hope my trollface gets merged :3
  490. # [14:48] <zcorpan> seems it gets punycoded in the address bar
  491. # [14:49] <erlehmann> yeah, otherwise homoglyph attacks would be easy
  492. # [14:50] <annevk> I don't really agree with that post that you have to inspect the certificate
  493. # [14:50] <zcorpan> but you could put it path or query
  494. # [14:50] <zcorpan> http://example.org/🔒
  495. # [14:51] <erlehmann> is shown percent encoded here
  496. # [14:51] <erlehmann> good!
  497. # [14:52] <zcorpan> not in opera/firefox/chrome
  498. # [14:53] <annevk> erlehmann: no disagreement though that this is hard for users
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  500. # [14:54] <annevk> erlehmann: security UI needs to get better
  501. # [14:55] <annevk> zcorpan: might be worth filing a bug on that
  502. # [14:55] <zcorpan> annevk: yeah
  503. # [14:55] <annevk> I wonder if we should perhaps also color the chrome in addition to displaying a lock.
  504. # [14:56] <caitp> > accessibility issues
  505. # [14:56] <caitp> > people writing addons to circumvent it anyways
  506. # [14:56] <annevk> caitp: those issues apply to the icon-based solution we have today as well
  507. # [14:56] <caitp> well, yes
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  509. # [14:57] <annevk> I'd imagine VoiceOver or some such would read out the address bar as "Secure www.example.org"
  510. # [14:57] <caitp> something that isn't too intrusive into the UI, but is noticeable enough to alert non tech-savvy users
  511. # [14:58] <erlehmann> users can and will do whatever they want
  512. # [14:58] <caitp> the thing is that you don't want to encourage people to shoot themselves in the foot
  513. # [14:59] <caitp> intrusive UI has that effect, because people will prioritize not having their eyes damaged over being safe from things they don't understand
  514. # [14:59] <erlehmann> indeeds
  515. # [14:59] <erlehmann> but the https cert warning is intrusive UI designed to let you be safe if you don't know
  516. # [15:00] <erlehmann> i hope notifications do not become a thing
  517. # [15:00] <erlehmann> otherwise the web is set up for the bubble apocalypse of windows xp days
  518. # [15:00] <erlehmann> where every application was thinking it has so important things to say!
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  521. # [15:03] <caitp> aren't notifications already a thing? ios and android never seem to shut up with those :p
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  523. # [15:03] <annevk> erlehmann: they're opt-in so if you don't like them you just ignore the request
  524. # [15:05] <erlehmann> annevk each and every opt-in solution can and will be abused. i can imagine “enable notifications to see this site” or even “enable media device access to see this site” to be as abusive as “enable javascript to see this static text so we can track you reliably”
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  526. # [15:05] <erlehmann> i bet someone will do this
  527. # [15:06] <darobin> annevk: you want [mixed-content]
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  529. # [15:06] <darobin> annevk: it depends on specref
  530. # [15:06] <erlehmann> caitp i mean web notifications. and yes, i hate those. the gnu/linux notify infrastructure though is surprisingly good.
  531. # [15:06] <darobin> annevk: if you open up any ReSpec document, in the top right menu there's a search option. If you search for "mixed content" you'll see all the available references in specref
  532. # [15:06] <zcorpan> "like us on facebook to see this site"
  533. # [15:07] <erlehmann> zcorpan exactly
  534. # [15:07] <mathiasbynens> zcorpan: thanks; fixed
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  537. # [15:07] <erlehmann> btw, annevk, i do not think it is always possible to be notified when a notification closes. if i am not mistaken, on linux notifications are usually fire-and-forget.
  538. # [15:07] <caitp> well web notifications have already shipped, so I mean
  539. # [15:07] <erlehmann> on gnu/linux desktop systems at least
  540. # [15:08] <erlehmann> caitp yeah, so i just hope they do not become popular
  541. # [15:08] <caitp> facebook and twitter aren't using them yet so most people are probably okay for now :p
  542. # [15:08] <erlehmann> it is certainly possible for useful features that are widely supported to not be popular at all.
  543. # [15:08] <annevk> darobin: okay, left a comment there with that, thanks
  544. # [15:09] <erlehmann> like, a web dev i know had a startup but was amazed when i showed him you don't have to scrollTo some element but can use fragments :D
  545. # [15:09] <erlehmann> s/had/has/
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  547. # [15:10] <mathiasbynens> as for browser security UI, I might be biased but I really like the way Opera does it
  548. # [15:10] <mathiasbynens> HTTPS with mixed content gets same UI as HTTP
  549. # [15:10] <erlehmann> how does opera
  550. # [15:10] <erlehmann> notify-send(1) gives me an urgency level (low, normal, critical), an expiration timer, an icon and a category.
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  554. # [15:14] <annevk> mathiasbynens: so I have Opera Next 12.15 and when I search for updates it tells me I have the latest copy
  555. # [15:15] <mathiasbynens> annevk: i know ಠ_ಠ it confuses users daily. there’s an open bug on it
  556. # [15:15] <annevk> mathiasbynens: is there a dev channel I should get instead?
  557. # [15:15] <mathiasbynens> annevk: linux? yeah
  558. # [15:15] <erlehmann> only lower-class operating systems do not have functional package management
  559. # [15:16] <mathiasbynens> annevk: http://www.opera.com/developer
  560. # [15:16] <mathiasbynens> (http://, i know, there’s a bug on that too)
  561. # [15:16] <annevk> better fix it
  562. # [15:17] <annevk> filed a couple on Mozilla too to force TLS
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  564. # [15:18] <annevk> mathiasbynens: Opera is inconsistent; for EV it shows a trailing slash, when there's no EV (TLS or no TLS does not matter) it shows no trailing slash;
  565. # [15:19] <annevk> mathiasbynens: good that it hides https:// though
  566. # [15:19] <mathiasbynens> ah, there’s a setting to override that and show the scheme anyway, which I have enabled
  567. # [15:20] <mathiasbynens> annevk: example host with no EV?
  568. # [15:20] <annevk> mathiasbynens: html5.org
  569. # [15:20] <annevk> ooh
  570. # [15:20] <annevk> I clicked the twitter link on the start page
  571. # [15:21] <annevk> which goes to /?partner=opera
  572. # [15:21] <annevk> and then Opera hides the ?partner=opera bit
  573. # [15:21] <annevk> but forgets about the /
  574. # [15:21] <mathiasbynens> heh
  575. # [15:21] <annevk> which would otherwise be hidden
  576. # [15:21] <annevk> sneaky
  577. # [15:21] <annevk> and arguably buggy
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  579. # [15:23] <annevk> I think I still like Safari on iOS8 the best, although I haven't seen it on an iPad
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  600. # [15:57] <Manishearth> Hixie: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/forms.html#dom-fs-target
  601. # [15:57] <Manishearth> should that^ say "limited only to allowed values"?
  602. # [15:57] <Manishearth> also, whatwg down
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  605. # [15:58] <zcorpan> Manishearth: no, a browsing context name can be anything
  606. # [15:58] <zcorpan> not down for me
  607. # [15:59] <Manishearth> zcorpan: okay, thanks
  608. # [15:59] <Manishearth> zcorpan: A valid browsing context name is any string with at least one character that does not start with a U+005F LOW LINE character.
  609. # [15:59] <Manishearth> if we include keywords, that adds _blank, _self, _parent, or _top.
  610. # [16:00] <Manishearth> apparently it just reflects in Gecko though
  611. # [16:02] <jgraham> hsivonen: Making compat decisions based on Presto is at least a little bit suspect :p
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  619. # [16:20] <erlehmann> _
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  629. # [16:33] <Manishearth> zcorpan: "The action and formaction content attributes, if specified, must have a value that is a valid non-empty URL potentially surrounded by spaces."
  630. # [16:34] <Manishearth> what happens if I specify an invalidURL?
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  632. # [16:34] <zcorpan> Manishearth: what you quoted is author requirement
  633. # [16:35] <Ms2ger> Manishearth, doesn't apply to you
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  635. # [16:35] <Manishearth> Ms2ger: as in?
  636. # [16:35] <Manishearth> ah
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  638. # [16:38] <Manishearth> Ms2ger: Gecko seems to behave differently from this spec
  639. # [16:39] <Manishearth> form.action="foo"; form.action
  640. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> Possible
  641. # [16:39] <Manishearth> will return baseurl/foo
  642. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> Sounds correct
  643. # [16:39] <Manishearth> whereas the spec says that it should just reflect the content attribute
  644. # [16:39] <Manishearth> (which is "foo")
  645. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> Well, see
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  647. # [16:39] <Ms2ger> "reflect" means a lot of things
  648. # [16:39] <Manishearth> bah
  649. # [16:39] <Manishearth> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/infrastructure.html#reflect
  650. # [16:40] <Ms2ger> Annoyingly, reflecting URLs is the only case where UA requirements depend on author requirements
  651. # [16:40] <Ms2ger> (AFAIK)
  652. # [16:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: what do you mean?
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  654. # [16:52] <Ms2ger> annevk, https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/infrastructure.html#reflect says something along the lines of "If there is an authoring requirement that the attribute contains a URL, resolve etc"
  655. # [16:53] <annevk> I see. We should have IDL extensions for reflection imo
  656. # [16:53] <Ms2ger> Dunno about that
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  733. # [18:44] <Hixie> zcorpan: 34-37 were only limited support
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  738. # [18:45] <Hixie> zcorpan: it's limited to 12 browsers by usage share. I thought there were only 11 though. There's 14?
  739. # [18:45] <Hixie> zcorpan: are the two with minimal usage share worth mentioning?
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  743. # [18:47] <zcorpan> Hixie: right so it should say 38, not 40
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  745. # [18:47] <zcorpan> Hixie: video also says 40
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  749. # [18:49] <zcorpan> Hixie: maybe top 12 is OK
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  757. # [18:55] <annevk> WebRTC WG :-(
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  759. # [18:55] <annevk> Also o_O
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  761. # [18:58] <Hixie> zcorpan: ?
  762. # [18:59] <Hixie> zcorpan: oh
  763. # [18:59] <Hixie> hm
  764. # [18:59] <Hixie> odd
  765. # [18:59] <Hixie> oh
  766. # [18:59] <Hixie> hey can you file a bug on it to remind me to look at it after this meeting?
  767. # [18:59] <Hixie> i can reply to w3process e-mails but actually coding requires me to concentrate
  768. # [19:02] <annevk> Hixie: you have meetings?
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  774. # [19:06] <Hixie> annevk: it happens
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  790. # [19:49] <zcorpan> Hixie: reminder
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  829. # [20:37] <miketaylr> annevk: zcorpan: added HTTPS/TLS to webcompat.com
  830. # [20:37] <miketaylr> thx for the gentle reminder
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  859. # [21:07] <annevk> miketaylr: cool, also HSTS?
  860. # [21:08] <miketaylr> annevk: yes, minus includeSubdomains
  861. # [21:08] <miketaylr> (for now)
  862. # [21:08] <annevk> miketaylr: I could get you a wildcard certificate (or one with several alternative names
  863. # [21:09] <annevk> miketaylr: from StartSSL
  864. # [21:09] <miketaylr> that would be sweet
  865. # [21:09] <miketaylr> i used the free one from StartSSL
  866. # [21:09] <annevk> miketaylr: just need to forward hostmaster@ email to me and then we need to figure out how to exchange a key
  867. # [21:09] <miketaylr> k, traveling tomorrow for a conf but will try to do that on Thurs
  868. # [21:09] <miketaylr> thx annevk
  869. # [21:09] <annevk> miketaylr: having said that, if you have several domains yourself it might be better if you do it or get Mozilla IT to manage it
  870. # [21:10] <annevk> miketaylr: otherwise in two years time we'll have to this dance again and not forget about it
  871. # [21:10] <miketaylr> annevk: yeah... or the other option is for me to just buy it and expense it
  872. # [21:11] <miketaylr> and then in theory transfer it to moz within 2 years
  873. # [21:11] <miketaylr> cost isn't really an issue
  874. # [21:12] <miketaylr> should probably just do that.
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  881. # [21:27] <iamstef> Hey All
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  883. # [21:28] <iamstef> loading WebWorker via CORS seems to be a pain point currently, is this a spec or implementors concern?
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  885. # [21:29] <aklein> Hixie: g'afternoon, just saw your answer from last night about foster parenting into DocumentFragments.
  886. # [21:30] <aklein> Hixie: both Blink and Gecko, despite supporting template parsing, won't foster parent into non-template DocumentFragments. I wonder if this needs to be captured in the spec
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  889. # [21:30] <iamstef> seems like a spec thing
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  891. # [21:32] <Domenic> annevk: Hixie: see iamstef's question. An interesting intersection of Fetch and HTML.
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  903. # [21:43] <Hixie> aklein: oh the template document fragments are considered special? that's odd
  904. # [21:43] <Hixie> i wonder if the spec says that
  905. # [21:43] <Hixie> it might
  906. # [21:44] <Hixie> iamstef, Domenic: i thought i had a bug tracking the idea of cross-origin workers
  907. # [21:45] <Hixie> iamstef, Domenic: but i can't find it. maybe it was just e-mail.
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  909. # [21:45] <iamstef> Hixie: i was surprised when i realized CORs wasn’t an option
  910. # [21:45] <Domenic> Hixie: iamstef found it. It's hard-coded to same-origin with no CORS provisions in the spec. Seems like it should just use Fetch in some way.
  911. # [21:46] <Domenic> s/found it/found the answer to his question/
  912. # [21:46] <Hixie> the idea is that if you fetch cross-origin, it should instantiate a worker in that origin
  913. # [21:46] <Hixie> but it's not specced
  914. # [21:46] <Domenic> hmm
  915. # [21:46] <Hixie> i thought there was an open bug on that
  916. # [21:46] <Hixie> but can't find it
  917. # [21:46] <Domenic> why not just treat it as if they had XHRed the code from the other origin and then instantiated with a data URL
  918. # [21:46] <iamstef> Domenic: i could see desire for both
  919. # [21:47] <iamstef> especially when you are using a WW to handle/maintain data flow with something.
  920. # [21:47] <iamstef> where it would be lovely if it was origined to the origin it came from
  921. # [21:48] <iamstef> so i think ^^ sounds goo for scriptURL
  922. # [21:48] <iamstef> building a WW from a blob resulting in same origin also makes sense?
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  937. # [22:08] <Hixie> Domenic: the idea is to make it possible to have remote services, essentially
  938. # [22:08] <Domenic> Hixie: yeah makes a lot of sense
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  949. # [22:32] <caitp> This function belongs to HUMANITY not to Google !!!!
  950. # [22:33] <Hixie> oh ffs, bugzilla changd to require a token during LOGIN?!
  951. # [22:33] <boogyman> Hixie: probably temporary while the zero-day is fixed
  952. # [22:36] <aklein> Hixie: I haven't looked at the Gecko code to see how they get special-cased there. in the Blink parser it's really hacky (and thus was the source of my <template><a><table><a> bug)
  953. # [22:37] <jamesr__> HUMANITY must be a blocking operation
  954. # [22:37] <Hixie> aklein: sounds like a good reason not to have the limitation
  955. # [22:37] <Hixie> boogyman: zero-day?
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  957. # [22:38] <boogyman> https://krebsonsecurity.com/2014/10/bugzilla-zero-day-exposes-zero-day-bugs/
  958. # [22:38] <Hixie> <input type="hidden" name="Bugzilla_login_token"
  959. # [22:38] <Hixie> value="">
  960. # [22:38] <Hixie> wtf
  961. # [22:38] <jamesr__> can't scrape it any more?
  962. # [22:39] <boogyman> essentially anyone could sign up with an "origin server" domain address and be privy to critical security bugs.
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  964. # [22:39] <Hixie> i don't understand what token it wants
  965. # [22:39] <Hixie> boogyman: ah, yeah, i see
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  967. # [22:40] <Hixie> i don't understand how to log in any more
  968. # [22:40] <Hixie> sigh
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  971. # [22:41] <boogyman> You should file a bug in … oh wait. Anyone here from Mozilla?
  972. # [22:42] <boogyman> Hopefully it's temporary while they implement a domain owner check.
  973. # [22:42] <caitp> there are mozillers in here
  974. # [22:43] <Hixie> i mean i can log in fine myself
  975. # [22:43] <Hixie> hm
  976. # [22:43] <Hixie> actually
  977. # [22:43] <Hixie> let me check that i can...
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  979. # [22:44] <Hixie> yeah i can
  980. # [22:44] <Hixie> so wtf
  981. # [22:45] <Hixie> omg, i wonder if some accounts are given a higher level of security or something
  982. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> Per that article, Mozilla does not attach security-bug credentials to domains, but it does expose *some* private bugs based on domain.
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  984. # [22:50] <smaug____> based on domain?
  985. # [22:50] <TabAtkins> Domain of the email on the account.
  986. # [22:50] <smaug____> ah, sort of, mozilla.com
  987. # [22:51] <TabAtkins> YTeah
  988. # [22:51] <smaug____> hmm
  989. # [22:51] <smaug____> I doubt it is really that way
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  991. # [22:53] <jgraham> http://blog.gerv.net/2014/10/new-class-of-vulnerability-in-perl-web-applications/
  992. # [22:53] <smaug____> oh, it is
  993. # [22:53] <smaug____> that is surprising
  994. # [22:53] <Hixie> when my script tries to log in, it gets "Untrusted Authentication Request"
  995. # [22:54] <smaug____> since I think moco addresses have been used for non-employee cases too
  996. # [22:54] <smaug____> oh well
  997. # [22:54] <jgraham> Well also there are lots of employees using non-moco addresses
  998. # [22:54] <jgraham> In bugzilla
  999. # [22:55] <smaug____> indeed
  1000. # [22:55] <smaug____> which is why it feels a bit odd if the email address itself would give some permissions
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  1002. # [22:56] <smaug____> I guess I could create a dummy account using moco address and test
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  1013. # [23:20] <annevk> miketaylr: also gives you TLS for your other domains more easily
  1014. # [23:21] <annevk> miketaylr: if you have a phone bill and some ID documents it's really quite easy, otherwise it goes through a letter and takes a little longer, still not a big deal though
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  1019. # [23:34] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/html5/2014/10/url-ref.html o_O
  1020. # [23:35] <annevk> There's a lot of mistakes there
  1021. # [23:35] <annevk> But, also, bed > 386
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  1028. # [23:58] <caitp> is there a reason why nobody seems to implement the title parameter of history.pushState() yet?
  1029. # [23:58] <caitp> or rather, why everybody ignores it*
  1030. # [23:59] <caitp> sort of puzzling :>
  1031. # Session Close: Wed Oct 08 00:00:00 2014

The end :)