/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-10-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 08 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:06] <Hixie> caitp: it shouldn't be there
  6. # [00:06] <Hixie> caitp: but we couldn't remove it once we realised that
  7. # [00:06] <Hixie> caitp: because people already used the first and third arguments
  8. # [00:07] <caitp> why shouldn't it?
  9. # [00:07] <Hixie> it's redundant with document.title, which is the better place for this
  10. # [00:08] <caitp> except that setting document.title doesn't affect the history list in any browser
  11. # [00:08] <caitp> so you end up with a huge list of items which all look the same
  12. # [00:08] <caitp> that kind of sucks
  13. # [00:09] <caitp> (eg holding down the back button in chrome)
  14. # [00:09] <caitp> well, I'm wrong, it does in FF nightly
  15. # [00:09] <caitp> but honestly that's probably not a very good behaviour
  16. # [00:10] <caitp> since the title as it appears in history should really be the initial title of the document, to avoid confusion imo
  17. # [00:10] <caitp> (or the initial title of the state)
  18. # [00:11] <caitp> the two things shouldn't be considered redundant even if one of them does end up using the other :p
  19. # [00:12] <caitp> probably too late to fix that now though :(
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  84. # [03:20] <Hixie> well, apparently dsinger and i have no ability to understand each other
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  86. # [03:20] <Hixie> Domenic: your turn, i give up
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  92. # [03:38] <terinjokes> annevk: i assume that `fetch()` just has some internal way starting a fetch and handling a processed response?
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  96. # [03:42] <boogyman> Hixie: is this within one of the email mail lists?
  97. # [03:42] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2014Oct/thread.html
  98. # [03:44] <boogyman> okay, what which thread?
  99. # [03:44] <Hixie> the one i was posting in :-)
  100. # [03:44] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2014Oct/0101.html was the last e-mail 
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  102. # [03:45] <Hixie> i wonder if accusing people of doing what you want to do is some sort of documented logical fallacy debate tactic
  103. # [03:47] <Hixie> a: "i want to do a." b: "please don't do a!" [long argument] a: "i give up! you just want to force people to do a!"
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  105. # [03:57] <JonathanNeal> Hixie: does the parser language conflict with splitting srcset by commas? re: https://github.com/scottjehl/picturefill/issues/322#issuecomment-58293500
  106. # [04:01] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Hixie's not the person to ask, as he's not the maintainer of that part of the spec.
  107. # [04:01] <TabAtkins> But yes, it is in conflict.
  108. # [04:01] <TabAtkins> There can be commas within a url, and as we add function descriptors, they may contain commas.
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  112. # [04:03] <JonathanNeal> Thanks. Who maintains that part of the spec?
  113. # [04:03] * boogyman_ is now known as boogyman
  114. # [04:03] <boogyman> Hixie: the common parent to your discussion is Tim stating quoting you about some sort of patent, is that correct
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  117. # [04:04] <Hixie> JonathanNeal: zcorpan
  118. # [04:04] <Hixie> boogyman: hm?
  119. # [04:05] <boogyman> The text from Hixie. I understand that this is the best which could be obtained as a document to be co-branded by W3C and WhatWG, that after some attempts to negotiate, Hixie refused to have that text removed.
  120. # [04:05] <Hixie> that's referring to the title on the FSA snapshot of the URL spec we published
  121. # [04:06] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Me + zcorpan
  122. # [04:06] <TabAtkins> zcorpan is more of a maintainer, but I can answer questions as I wrote most of the text originally.
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  124. # [04:13] <JonathanNeal> Awesome. Would a parse error result in an error event being fired? https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/embedded-content.html#the-img-element:event-error
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  127. # [04:15] <JonathanNeal> And do errors fire when something happens that “let[s] error be yes”, like when parsing non-negative numbers?
  128. # [04:16] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: As long as it can find one valid candidate, it doesn't throw an error.
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  131. # [04:18] <boogyman> Hixie: is David really arguing over a change to a spec title?
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  133. # [04:21] <JonathanNeal> So, to be clear, no parse error is thrown if one valid candidate if found, otherwise an error event is dispatched on the element?
  134. # [04:21] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Yes.
  135. # [04:27] <JonathanNeal> When you say function descriptors, what do you mean? In responsive images, I know descriptors as the “x” in “1x” or the “w” in “400w”.
  136. # [04:28] <TabAtkins> Yes, those. Like if we add type() or something in the future.
  137. # [04:28] <TabAtkins> Keeping our options open.
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  145. # [05:19] <JonathanNeal> My first attempt at writing my own spec-compliant regex parser for image candidates https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/cd2a5754b88700bdbdbf
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  148. # [05:35] <JonathanNeal> “If an image candidate string contains no descriptors and no space characters after the URL, the following image candidate string, if there is one, must begin with one or more space characters.” Is this before or after the comma?
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  152. # [05:46] <JonathanNeal> I presume before, because a URL may not end with a comma.
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  157. # [06:09] <Hixie> boogyman: i think that he's asking us to publish a new copy of the url spec snapshot, but with a different title.
  158. # [06:09] <Hixie> boogyman: i'm not sure i understand anything else in that thread.
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  162. # [06:14] <boogyman> Hixie: I agree with your first statement. In regards to the second, I believe the thread is attempting for you to question your decision about the name it currently has as possibly tarnishing your reputation. I also find that the thread makes references to being able to refer to a snapshot ("static reference"), and that any phrasing changes whatsoever.
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  164. # [06:16] <boogyman> As an objective third-party, I believe I have an understanding of the motivation of both sides, and to me this is a philosophical difference of opinion. Static never-changing proof vs Fluid will-probably-be-obsolete publication.
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  167. # [06:20] <boogyman> In my experience it's very difficult to create something that is both abstract and definitive in nature, as it is sometimes very difficult to know what we don't know. An example of that would be that at one point in our existence we "knew" that the earth was flat, but we now "know" the earth is round, and in the future, we may "know" some other dimension.
  168. # [06:21] <Hixie> boogyman: so, the one thing that i think is an opinion really in my argument is that i prioritise interoperability above all else in this topic.
  169. # [06:22] <Hixie> boogyman: but everything else i'm arguing, i think, is a logical consequence of the facts of the universe plus that priority
  170. # [06:22] <Hixie> boogyman: what i don't understand in the rest of that thread is why people disagree with the conclusions. As in, what part of my logic chain is wrong.
  171. # [06:23] <Hixie> boogyman: or, whether the premises (priorities) are different.
  172. # [06:24] <boogyman> I think the rest of the conversation is fluff, just restating the same argument
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  174. # [06:24] <Hixie> there certainly was a lot of that
  175. # [06:24] <Hixie> but do you understand "their" argument?
  176. # [06:25] <Hixie> and if so, can you explain it to me?
  177. # [06:25] <Hixie> i really don't like not understanding the arguments that people who disagree with me make.
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  179. # [06:27] <boogyman> My understanding is that you want the document to remain fluid and suggest against referencing potentially obsolete sections, whereas "their" argument is that a revision should be permanently reference-able.
  180. # [06:27] <Hixie> that much i understood
  181. # [06:27] <Hixie> it's the "why" i don't get
  182. # [06:28] <boogyman> So version A should always be version A, not version ∀
  183. # [06:28] <caitp-> html5 is a much better brand name than <some 24 letter SHA>
  184. # [06:29] <Hixie> caitp-: we've clearly demonstrated over the past few years that you don't need a snapshot to have that brand name.
  185. # [06:29] <boogyman> Hixie: I think there may be some resentment about the rate at which the revisions occur.
  186. # [06:29] <boogyman> That was never stated explicitly, but that's an underlying tone I perceive.
  187. # [06:30] <caitp-> which is fair
  188. # [06:30] <Hixie> boogyman: that was definitely not one of the topics raised
  189. # [06:30] <caitp-> since the spec is a jumble of things that havent been implemented and things that never will be implemented, it's kind of unfair to authors to treat it as anything canonical
  190. # [06:31] <caitp-> but html5, that's a brand they can trust
  191. # [06:31] <caitp-> (tm)
  192. # [06:36] <boogyman> Hixie: The perception I first had of the title is not one of favoritism toward the bodies named, therefore it has a bad connotation.
  193. # [06:37] <Hixie> boogyman: ?
  194. # [06:38] <Hixie> boogyman: how would you feel about a spec called "HTML: The Living Standard; A technical specification for Web developers" ?
  195. # [06:38] <Hixie> boogyman: does that have bad connotations against web developers?
  196. # [06:38] <boogyman> no
  197. # [06:38] <Hixie> i don't understand the difference
  198. # [06:40] <boogyman> by your own admission the reference to those bodies are expressing your disapproval
  199. # [06:40] <Hixie> no, the disapproval is towards implementors using the spec
  200. # [06:40] <boogyman> Which is the exact perception I had when first viewing the document, before I read the mailing list
  201. # [06:40] <Hixie> not towards the lawyers or officials
  202. # [06:43] <boogyman> "So, please can we have a snapshot that has the same title" <-- request for consistency for consistencies sake
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  205. # [06:44] <boogyman> "Expecting everyone to keep editing constantly because you are editing something they reference is expecting too much." <-- again stating that once something has been "named", for better or worse, that is it's name.
  206. # [06:44] <Hixie> boogyman: my problem with the part of the discussion where that first quote is from is that i tried to explain why there was a reason for the title, and as far as i can tell, that explanation had no impact at all
  207. # [06:45] <caitp-> doesnt it suck when that happens
  208. # [06:45] <Hixie> and that second one, saying that maintaining your spec is too much, floored me
  209. # [06:45] <Hixie> it's literally saying that doing the bare minimum is too much effort.
  210. # [06:46] <caitp-> to be fair, most people can think of a lot of things that would be significantly less effort while still netting them a healthy salary
  211. # [06:49] <boogyman> Hixie: A bit off topic here, but i'm not too thrilled about the notion that WHATWG supports "forks". As an author, I want to know that there is a single contract (spec) that vendors are implementing against, so that one day I may have a unified functional experience. By having multiple specs and/or reference points, confusion creeps in both as a vendor-implementer and a web-author.
  212. # [06:49] * Quits: eto (~eto@unaffiliated/eto) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  213. # [06:49] <Hixie> no kidding
  214. # [06:49] * boogyman is now known as dividinglimits
  215. # [06:49] <Hixie> i've no idea where david got the idea that i or anyone else involved with the whatwg supports forks
  216. # [06:50] <Hixie> i mean, we've been begging and pleading for the w3c to stop forking for literally years now
  217. # [06:50] * dividinglimits is now known as boogyman
  218. # [06:50] <Hixie> we're so against it that when we recently realised that the domparsing.spec.whatwg.org spec was itself effectively an inferior fork of a w3c spec, we made it redirect to the w3c one.
  219. # [06:51] <boogyman> anyway, back on topic, i think the discussion boils down to wanting to maintain a level of consistency
  220. # [06:51] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.186.244) (Remote host closed the connection)
  221. # [06:51] <caitp-> is it fair to authors for them to have to keep track of whether the correct spec lives in w3c or whatwg land
  222. # [06:52] <caitp-> (ignoring that redirects exist)
  223. # [06:52] <caitp-> or even just figuring out which one is "correct" in the first place
  224. # [06:52] <caitp-> if any
  225. # [06:53] * Joins: eto (~eto@unaffiliated/eto)
  226. # [06:54] <Hixie> caitp-: if the w3c would stop forking our work, a simple google search would give you the answer.
  227. # [06:54] <boogyman> caitp-: I think it wouldn't matter if there is only one authoritative source for each resource. My personal opinion is that I don't care if there are multiple organizations working collaboratively as long as the end result is a single experience (even if that means I am redirected to different sites that i recognize as being a spec-authoring entity).
  228. # [06:54] <Hixie> caitp-: as it is, a google search won't even tell you which of the sometimes dozens of forks the w3c has for any particular spec is the appropriate one
  229. # [06:54] <caitp-> actually even if you google for whatwg specs specifically, I usually ahve to include some very specific keywords in order to find what i'm looking for :(
  230. # [06:54] <caitp-> otherwise i mostly find old mailing list posts
  231. # [06:54] <caitp-> w3c is a lot more searchable
  232. # [06:55] <Hixie> boogyman: so basically, you're saying it's a difference in priorities?
  233. # [06:55] <Hixie> boogyman: if it is, i wish they'd just say what their priorities were so we could establish that
  234. # [06:55] <Hixie> caitp-: yeah, sadly the whatwg doesn't yet have enough authority in google rankings :-(
  235. # [06:55] <caitp-> :-(
  236. # [06:56] <boogyman> Hixie: maybe that's a frank question you can pose to David.
  237. # [06:56] <boogyman> or whomever is the contact
  238. # [06:57] <caitp-> anyways i'm not taking sides, just saying the whole thing is pretty frustrating for people who arent paying moderately close attention to it
  239. # [06:57] <Hixie> boogyman: whenever i do, i get told that obviously interoperability is the highest priority, and it's implied that even asking that question is offensive.
  240. # [06:58] <Hixie> caitp-: it's at least as frustrating for those of us who are paying close attention, let me assure you
  241. # [06:58] <boogyman> So would it make more sense for a third party to pose the question?
  242. # [06:59] <Hixie> boogyman: i have no idea
  243. # [07:00] <caitp-> well, paying close enough attention to sort through all the bugmail and mailing lists and keep track of everything would certainly be frustrating, hardly even feasible
  244. # [07:00] * Joins: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@103.249.181.147)
  245. # [07:02] <boogyman> I have no problem asking for clarification as to whom is the authoritative source for x,y,z, as eventually authors will be required to develop against only one, and as cait stated the longer the wait, the more frustration builds.
  246. # [07:02] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  247. # [07:03] * Joins: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se)
  248. # [07:03] <Hixie> boogyman: who would you ask? i'm sure the w3c would think they were the canonical source of info for HTML, just like i'd say the html.spec.whatwg.org spec is
  249. # [07:03] * Quits: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@103.249.181.147) (Client Quit)
  250. # [07:04] <caitp-> you'd ask the people implementing tiny pieces of the individual x, y or z
  251. # [07:05] <caitp-> because they're the ones deciding which one (and which parts of which one) are canonical
  252. # [07:05] <caitp-> which essentially means that none of them are really canonical in their entirety
  253. # [07:06] <caitp-> (which is frustrating for people)
  254. # [07:06] <boogyman> Hixie: As long as there isn't any overlap, I have no probably with whatwg being the authoritative source for a,b,y, and w3c d...,x,z or whatever the breakdown. But do not have multiple spec writers claiming canonical source of any single piece
  255. # [07:07] <Hixie> caitp-: yeah, that's why we update the whatwg specs to match implementations as pretty much job #1 :-)
  256. # [07:07] <Hixie> boogyman: how do you stop it?
  257. # [07:07] * Quits: jensnockert (~jensnocke@s83-179-51-171.cust.tele2.se) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  258. # [07:08] <Hixie> boogyman: i mean, i'm entirely in agreement in principle, i just don't know how to stop it happening
  259. # [07:08] <boogyman> By both sides embracing the needs of the audience, over the needs of the business.
  260. # [07:08] <Hixie> let's take html, since that's the one i edit.
  261. # [07:08] <Hixie> there's two ways we can solve the problem that i can see:
  262. # [07:09] <boogyman> Pride will most likely come into play when those conversations happen.
  263. # [07:09] <Hixie> either i stop editing, or they stop copying and editing.
  264. # [07:09] <caitp-> in the w3c's case, the member companies are probably not a negligible percentage of their business, and losing influence would mean losing members
  265. # [07:09] <Hixie> now i could stop editing, but that would leave only their inferior version as the canonical version, and that seems objectively bad
  266. # [07:09] <caitp-> I have no idea if there is any other revenue model there
  267. # [07:09] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-166-140.hsi11.unitymediagroup.de) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  268. # [07:09] <Hixie> (i mean, they're literally months behind in fixing their spec, compared to the fixes i've put in the html spec)
  269. # [07:10] <boogyman> "their inferior version" <-- by what metric?
  270. # [07:10] <Hixie> number of bugs
  271. # [07:10] <Hixie> they started with my text, then i fixed a bunch of things and they haven't fixed them.
  272. # [07:10] * Joins: CssNoob (~CssnooB@120.28.215.6)
  273. # [07:10] <Hixie> (my text and zcorpan's now.)
  274. # [07:11] <boogyman> stale != infererior
  275. # [07:11] * Quits: Goplat (~goplat@reactos/developer/Goplat) (Remote host closed the connection)
  276. # [07:11] <Hixie> in what sense can a spec less match reality, have more bugs, be more stale, and yet not be inferior?
  277. # [07:12] <boogyman> But, on a new track, i think it bears investigating why "they started with my text", instead of just referencing yours?
  278. # [07:12] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-166-140.hsi11.unitymediagroup.de)
  279. # [07:12] <Hixie> because it's the HTML spec and if the W3C doesn't publish the spec for the flagship markup language of the Web, they feel their credibility is at risk?
  280. # [07:12] <boogyman> what need went unfulfilled that they thought it would be better to fork
  281. # [07:12] <Hixie> that's my guess
  282. # [07:13] <Hixie> i don't know why they copy the other specs
  283. # [07:13] <caitp-> maybe they'll start publishing markdown
  284. # [07:13] <boogyman> So my question would be, what is the likelihood of you ghost writing for w3c?
  285. # [07:14] <Hixie> i think their processes are actively harming the web.
  286. # [07:14] <Hixie> we tried me being the editor of their fork for a few years
  287. # [07:14] <Hixie> i quit in disgust
  288. # [07:14] <Hixie> (and because it was becoming intractable, their version kept getting further and further away from sane)
  289. # [07:14] <boogyman> So, there is resentment there. okay.
  290. # [07:15] <Hixie> resentment implies an emotional component that really isn't relevant here
  291. # [07:15] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@17.202.43.222) (Quit: rniwa)
  292. # [07:15] <caitp-> relevance and presence are different
  293. # [07:15] <caitp-> case in point
  294. # [07:16] <Hixie> i mean that it was a much more reasoned decision on my part than an emotional one
  295. # [07:16] <Hixie> personally i have no problem with the w3c existing despite what i view as their flaws
  296. # [07:16] <Hixie> i mean, i think the ietf has many of the same flaws and a bucket load of their own, but i don't have a problem with them because they're not forking our work all the time.
  297. # [07:17] <caitp-> no offense, but you do sound sort of passive aggressive a lot WRT the w3c
  298. # [07:17] <boogyman> yet, you are attempting to take the authoritative source of HTML with you.
  299. # [07:18] <Hixie> caitp-: yeah, i would imagine so. they keep copying my work and messing it up, that aspect of it is very frustrating. combined with the things i think are flawed in their approach to standards, it's easy for me to express indirect hostility.
  300. # [07:19] <caitp-> not judging =)
  301. # [07:19] <Hixie> boogyman: ok there's several premises in that statement i disagree with
  302. # [07:19] <Hixie> boogyman: first, i wouldn't actually care if they wrote their own HTML spec and we wrote ours and we could let the market decide which was "authoritative", or rather, which was better
  303. # [07:19] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  304. # [07:20] <Hixie> boogyman: second, specs imho can't be authoritative. that phrasing imho implies that there's a source of power from specs, and there isn't.
  305. # [07:20] <Hixie> boogyman: (this is one of my pet peeves; a lot of standards people think that writing specs gives them some sort of power over implementors. it doesn't.)
  306. # [07:20] <Hixie> boogyman: third, "take with" implies that the authority was with the w3c first.
  307. # [07:21] <Hixie> boogyman: in practice, the w3c ceded that authority around 2000, when they announced HTML was dead
  308. # [07:22] <boogyman> in favor of xhtml?
  309. # [07:22] <Hixie> boogyman: we took over the job of writing HTML in 2003, 2004 or so. Around 2007 they asked if we would mind them also working on it. A few years later I quit from that gig because it was a huge disaster as mentioned earlier.
  310. # [07:22] <Hixie> boogyman: but ever since 2004, the WHATWG has been maintaining HTML.
  311. # [07:22] <Hixie> boogyman: so I think if one were to see "authority" here, which I don't, that one would find it hard to argue that we're "taking it with" us away from some place it has been before.
  312. # [07:23] <Hixie> boogyman: i dunno. xml. something like that. i forget what the big plan was at the time. it never came to pass, anyway.
  313. # [07:23] <caitp-> xml is still pretty successful
  314. # [07:23] <caitp-> but thats another story
  315. # [07:23] <Hixie> not as a replacement for html
  316. # [07:24] <caitp-> yes, xhtml is nasty
  317. # [07:26] <boogyman> 1) that takes time, and as we have already seen with the earlier browser ES wars, that doesn't bode well for the web. 2) I think specs are a source of power, but I do agree that spec-maintainers should not feel a sense of entitlement. 3) It was originally with the w3c, so yes, it was taken away (but it sounds like your argument here is that something "abandoned" cannot be taken).
  318. # [07:27] <Hixie> well i agree that if they did their own spec it wouldn't be good. but it wouldn't be as bad as forking the whatwg work, because in reality theirs would suck so nobody would doubt which should be followed :-)
  319. # [07:27] <Hixie> the problem is essentially that they are using our work to let theirs seem to have authority, in a weird way
  320. # [07:28] <boogyman> So getting back on topic of using HTML as an example, that may be a very touchy subject given the history of the language and its core importance to the web
  321. # [07:28] <Hixie> for 3, i agree with your wording.
  322. # [07:28] <caitp-> lots of things in the whatwg's html suck too, like the entire parsing section
  323. # [07:28] <Hixie> but i mean, we "took it with us" 10 years ago now
  324. # [07:28] <Hixie> at this point we just have it :-P
  325. # [07:28] <caitp-> things being bad don't seem to stop people from following them if they've been doing so for years already :(
  326. # [07:28] <Hixie> caitp-: we're using different metrics for "bad"
  327. # [07:29] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-166-140.hsi11.unitymediagroup.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  328. # [07:29] <Hixie> caitp-: i agree that html parsign itself sucks. however, the spec of html parsing is great since it so accurately represents what an implementation has to do to implement the (sucky) technology.
  329. # [07:29] <Hixie> caitp-: but e.g. compare the HTML4 parsing rules to the WHATWG HTML parsing rules
  330. # [07:29] <Hixie> caitp-: the HTML4 ones are an inferior spec.
  331. # [07:30] <Hixie> (albeit arguably a better technology)
  332. # [07:30] <boogyman> less-than-ideal
  333. # [07:30] * Joins: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-166-140.hsi11.unitymediagroup.de)
  334. # [07:30] <Hixie> boogyman: "may be a very touchy subject" is the understatement of the night :-)
  335. # [07:31] <Hixie> boogyman: but that does explain why "well you should just get together and decide which one is going to do it" is not realistic
  336. # [07:31] <boogyman> so to me, that's really the crux of the issue,and really is that way for all standards. all sides agree that there should be a single definition, just as long as that definition is theirs.
  337. # [07:31] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@61.144.248.40)
  338. # [07:32] <boogyman> example: blog-framework X
  339. # [07:32] * Quits: mven (~textual@72.183.104.138) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  340. # [07:33] <boogyman> Hixie: when the organizations put the needs of the audience over their own perceptions the decision because significantly more realistic.
  341. # [07:33] <Hixie> boogyman: i think it's a continuum of goodness. A single great spec would be ideal. Multiple competing independent specs is not great. A single spec that's then forked into multiple (in the W3C's case, dozens of) conflicting stale versions is worst.
  342. # [07:33] <Hixie> boogyman: both the w3c and the whatwg think (or at least claim) that them continuing to publish their specs is in the intersts of the audienc.
  343. # [07:34] <boogyman> and I believe that how "the audience" is defined is flawed.
  344. # [07:34] <Hixie> boogyman: for example, we think that living standards, open development, a single person to bear the blame for decisions, etc, is key to writing quality specifications which in turn is key to getting interoperability.
  345. # [07:35] * Joins: smoekstak (796670b1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.102.112.177)
  346. # [07:35] <Hixie> whereas the w3c think that consensus, regular expensive meetings, telecons, multilevel process documents, etc, is key to writing specifications that [have some criteria they are optimising for, not sure what] which in turn is key to [whatever it is they think is important, not sure what]
  347. # [07:36] * Quits: smoekstak (796670b1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.102.112.177) (Client Quit)
  348. # [07:36] <Hixie> ("the audience" in our case is users, authors, and implementors, in that order)
  349. # [07:39] <boogyman> so those definitions seem to feed competing business models which in turn is causing the different views on the topic.
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  352. # [07:40] <Hixie> boogyman: that's my impression too, though i really really wish i could fill in those square brackets with non-cynical, true answers for the w3c side
  353. # [07:40] <Hixie> boogyman: however, i can't ever get a straight answer
  354. # [07:40] <Hixie> boogyman: (cf, the thread that started this discussion)
  355. # [07:40] <boogyman> straight meaning unbiased?
  356. # [07:42] <Hixie> meaning one that stands up to the slightest objective analysis
  357. # [07:42] <Hixie> as opposed to "well obviously our top priority is getting interoperable browsers", say
  358. # [07:42] * Quits: yacks (~yacks@103.6.159.172) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  359. # [07:42] <Hixie> or "we want to make sure our RECs represent what's implemented"
  360. # [07:43] <Hixie> both of which are trivially demonstrably false, since they do things that work against both of these all the time
  361. # [07:43] <Hixie> e.g. the HTML spec is being published with text inside it saying that it's wrong.
  362. # [07:43] <Hixie> literally.
  363. # [07:43] <Hixie> so they know that the html spec isn't what's implemented.
  364. # [07:43] <Hixie> yet they are publishing it anyway.
  365. # [07:43] <Hixie> or the way that they just didn't test entire huge sections of the HTML spec
  366. # [07:44] <Hixie> yet said "yup, we've proved interop, we're good to go"
  367. # [07:44] <boogyman> so, how about putting pride aside, and making that specification as best it can be.
  368. # [07:44] <Hixie> that's what i try to do for the whatwg spec
  369. # [07:44] <boogyman> and thats a comment to both sides.
  370. # [07:44] <Hixie> but again, it's trivially demonstrable that that's not what they're trying to do, since if it was, they'd have made sure they copied all my fixes promptly, and wouldn't publish something that doesn't have the fixes.
  371. # [07:45] <boogyman> If the quotes you state are not just lip service, have a call to action against those ideals.
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  374. # [07:45] <Hixie> years ago i did try, many times
  375. # [07:45] <Hixie> i've lost the will to fix the w3c at this point
  376. # [07:45] <boogyman> you dont need to fix the organization, fix this one draft.
  377. # [07:46] <boogyman> draft/spec
  378. # [07:46] <Hixie> i tried that too for several years
  379. # [07:46] <Hixie> at one point i was told point blank to make the spec say something that was literally self-contradictory
  380. # [07:47] <Hixie> and when i pointed out the problem i was told to just do it anyway
  381. # [07:47] <Hixie> (i refused)
  382. # [07:47] <Hixie> (they did it fo me)
  383. # [07:47] <Hixie> (i quit not long after)
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  386. # [07:50] <boogyman> Hixie: that means you were not the editor.
  387. # [07:51] <Hixie> i guess so
  388. # [07:51] * Joins: jernoble|laptop (~jernoble@162.217.73.171)
  389. # [07:51] <Hixie> but it's the best i could do
  390. # [07:51] <Hixie> so...
  391. # [07:52] * Joins: psy_ (~psy@103.6.159.172)
  392. # [07:52] <Hixie> i really should go to bed, anyway
  393. # [07:52] <Hixie> thanks for trying to help me understand it
  394. # [07:53] <boogyman> yeah, it's nearly 2a here, so its definitely long after my bed time
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  407. # [08:29] <annevk> terinjokes: what do you mean?
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  409. # [08:38] <annevk> hsivonen: seems DreamHost upgrade helped a bit: https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=annevankesteren.nl
  410. # [08:39] <annevk> Hopefully Hixie's server is updated soon as well
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  445. # [09:49] <annevk> http://xkcd.com/1431/ nice mismatch between state and population
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  473. # [10:34] <tobie> annevk: wouldn't it make sense to have a requestPermissions API that grouped permission requests and allowed the UA to present them grouped together to the user when that was appropriate?
  474. # [10:35] <annevk> tobie: is it ever?
  475. # [10:35] <annevk> I mean, that proposal is very old and came back again recently, but nobody has shown promising UI
  476. # [10:35] <annevk> In fact, I haven't seen evidence that refutes http://robert.ocallahan.org/2011/06/permissions-for-web-applications_30.html yet
  477. # [10:36] <tobie> annevk: certainly not suggesting upfront permissioning
  478. # [10:36] <annevk> Shit, StartSSL did have a SHA-256 intermediate certificate, just hosted elsewhere https://www.startssl.com/certs/class2/sha2/pem/
  479. # [10:37] <tobie> annevk: but e.g. want to access various sensors to do a particular task
  480. # [10:38] <tobie> annevk: for example, temperature + geolocation
  481. # [10:39] <tobie> annevk: I mean the fact that there's a thread discussing how to make the current API more friendly to use with Promise.all seems there's a need/want for that.
  482. # [10:40] <annevk> I'll have to see the application TabAtkins has written that needs this first tobie
  483. # [10:40] <tobie> annevk: might as well enable the UA to do some smart UI in such cases.
  484. # [10:40] <tobie> annevk: my use case abive isn't enough?
  485. # [10:40] <annevk> Not particularly persuaded by the Promise.all() approach to permission APIs, sounds a lot like Java applets
  486. # [10:41] <annevk> tobie: how would the UI look for temp + geo?
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  488. # [10:41] <Manishearth> Hixie: around?
  489. # [10:41] <annevk> tobie: do you imagine browsers have the resources to come up with something reasonable there anytime soon?
  490. # [10:41] <annevk> I'm very skeptical
  491. # [10:44] <annevk> Manishearth: he's asleep
  492. # [10:45] <Manishearth> got that :0
  493. # [10:45] <Manishearth> * :)
  494. # [10:46] <Manishearth> annevk: does this test look correct to you?
  495. # [10:46] <Manishearth> https://github.com/servo/servo/blob/2238d81b530d40c164df59569fb4d11914ad5c99/src/test/html/content/test_script_src_attribute.html
  496. # [10:46] <Manishearth> Gecko seems to resolve it with a base URL
  497. # [10:48] <tobie> annevk: that's quite possible, but we won't know unless we enable it. :)
  498. # [10:49] <annevk> Manishearth: looks wrong
  499. # [10:49] <Manishearth> annevk: thanks
  500. # [10:49] <annevk> Manishearth: see HTML's reflect definition
  501. # [10:50] <Manishearth> annevk: that's what I'm looking at :)
  502. # [10:50] <tobie> annevk: UI could be a set of checkboxes with a general explanation (in order to tag pictures, example.com requests access to the following APIs: [ ] camera [ ] geolocation
  503. # [10:51] <annevk> tobie: we can't allow text from the site into decision UI, that enables spoofing
  504. # [10:52] <tobie> annevk: well the same without the first 5 words, then. :)
  505. # [10:52] <tobie> annevk: really, no text explanation? Other platforms seem to allow those.
  506. # [10:53] <annevk> tobie: other platforms have vetted apps
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  508. # [10:54] <annevk> I don't really see the point unless there's UI people involved
  509. # [10:54] <annevk> It's always developers that propose these shortcuts
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  511. # [10:55] <tobie> annevk: yeah, because they care about non-shitty UX
  512. # [10:56] <annevk> It's not clear that what you proposed is non-shitty or shitty.
  513. # [10:56] <tobie> annevk: My point is that providing this API does not force vendors to do anything more UI-wise than what they would if those permissions were requested serially, BUT enables vendors that want to do something there to do so.
  514. # [10:57] <annevk> Do we have evidence that vendors want this and will invest UI resources? And can we get those UI resources to help out with the API?
  515. # [10:57] <annevk> And do we have evidence that it in turn will help users or would it actually make things too complicated?
  516. # [10:58] <tobie> annevk: I think we're talking past each other.
  517. # [10:58] <annevk> Adding more API surface is not zero cost so we need to have evidence there's going to be a benefit.
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  519. # [11:02] <tobie> agreed, but the cost of this API is very small (as it can be simply implemented as a wrapper around promise.all), so the benefits it needs to bring can also be very small (it enable vendors to experiment with grouping permission requests to the user, and turn in on if there's an end-user benefit. If not, it's just a nice convenience method).
  520. # [11:03] <tobie> annevk: this grouping is still successfully used at Facebook, btw. Both fior upfront permissions, and permissions required following a user action.
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  523. # [11:06] <annevk> If the cost is small we can do it quickly when we have some UI guidance
  524. # [11:06] <annevk> The cost is small is very poor justification btw. Lots of features have small cost, but if we were to add them all, we would never do the things that matter.
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  526. # [11:07] <annevk> You basically don't want to avoid making that argument
  527. # [11:07] <annevk> oops
  528. # [11:07] <annevk> s/don't// :-)
  529. # [11:08] <annevk> Hixie: we should actually have used https://www.startssl.com/certs/class2/sha2/pem/sub.class2.server.sha2.ca.pem as intermediate certificate; I can understand if you don't want to change it. Though you should be aware there's advocacy that our intermediate certificate is bad: https://shaaaaaaaaaaaaa.com/
  530. # [11:08] <tobie> annevk: if we delay enabling the API, apps which would have automatically benefited from this UI enhancements won't, which itself lowers the incentive for vendors to actually do something about it.
  531. # [11:09] <annevk> What UI enhancements
  532. # [11:10] <annevk> That's an unknown. It's not even clear we want apps to ask for all the things at once.
  533. # [11:10] <tobie> annevk: that's a strawman. I've explained already that's not what I'm suggesting.
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  536. # [11:12] <annevk> I recommend following https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#Is_there_a_process_for_adding_new_features_to_a_specification.3F
  537. # [11:13] <annevk> Or talking to mounir as he wants the same thing
  538. # [11:13] <tobie> annevk: You can't on one hand accept a change with the sole justification that it enables using Promise.all and on the other hand claim grouping permission is useless.
  539. # [11:13] <annevk> I don't want that change to enable Promise.all()
  540. # [11:13] <annevk> I want it for async/await
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  542. # [11:14] <annevk> I don't know whether grouping is useless or useful. I have been interested in finding out since forever and thus far I've been unable to get UX people involved.
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  544. # [11:15] <annevk> Getting their attention is hard. (See e.g. how long it took before Web Forms 2.0 went anywhere and it's still not great.)
  545. # [11:15] <tobie> OK, well, that's the only argument you bring up in the first email on that topic (not yours, admittedly, but beverloo's)
  546. # [11:16] <tobie> annevk: those are reasonable arguments. I'll talk to mounir.
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  557. # [11:54] <annevk> DreamHost solved quite a few TLS issues with their upgrade. Waiting for whatwg.org to also be upgraded and then I'll update my post.
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  560. # [12:13] <annevk> Can someone explain to me why https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=spec.whatwg.org scores higher on Key Exchange compared to https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=annevankesteren.nl
  561. # [12:15] <annevk> Perhaps the "BEAST attack" bit?
  562. # [12:16] <annevk> It seems that regressed
  563. # [12:16] <annevk> (spec.whatwg.org is still on older DreamHost software)
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  568. # [12:27] <jgraham> annevk: Is it known that the wiki is mixed content?
  569. # [12:27] <annevk> jgraham: it is for pages cached before we transitioned
  570. # [12:27] <annevk> jgraham: if someone has access to the server they could fix that
  571. # [12:29] <annevk> jgraham: made a meaningless edit to Why not conneg to fix it for that email
  572. # [12:29] <jgraham> OK
  573. # [12:29] <annevk> Hixie: GPHemsley: what's the status on fixing the wiki's cache issues?
  574. # [12:29] <jgraham> Having no one with access to the server seems more than a little prblematic :)
  575. # [12:29] <annevk> Hixie: GPHemsley: can I get access to the wiki perhaps?
  576. # [12:30] <annevk> jgraham: no disagreement there
  577. # [12:30] <GPHemsley> annevk: We're having strange problems getting me access.
  578. # [12:30] <GPHemsley> The password has been reset, but I still can't get in
  579. # [12:30] <GPHemsley> annevk: Believe, we're trying :)
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  581. # [12:38] <annevk> GPHemsley: hopefully soon it'll work
  582. # [12:38] <annevk> GPHemsley: password reset can take up to 10min, but then it should really start working
  583. # [12:38] <GPHemsley> annevk: Yeah, I would very much like to take care of this issue.
  584. # [12:38] <GPHemsley> annevk: It's been days. Something else is wrong.
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  587. # [12:38] <GPHemsley> annevk: Hixie thinks my computer is broken somehow.
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  678. # [13:41] <annevk> I reported the BEAST attack regression to DreamHost btw
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  680. # [13:45] <jgraham> Isn't this becase RC4 is good for BEAST but bad otherwise?
  681. # [13:46] <jgraham> https://community.qualys.com/blogs/securitylabs/2013/03/19/rc4-in-tls-is-broken-now-what for example
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  683. # [13:49] <annevk> So without RC4 you cannot defend against BEAST?
  684. # [13:49] <jgraham> I know very little about this
  685. # [13:49] <jgraham> Based on that blog it sounds like client side defences might be good enough
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  687. # [13:51] <annevk> Hmm, will read up on it later I suppose
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  695. # [14:19] <zcorpan> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26952 isn't this "by design" (i.e. how shadow dom was supposed to work)?
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  698. # [14:23] <JakeA> TabAtkins: I remember a page that collated 'weird' bits of CSS, such as "why isn't opacity a %?" - do you remember the url?
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  707. # [14:53] <jgraham> zcorpan: TBH that example looks pretty sad. The story we were all told is that we were going to be able to write <video> and get a custom behaviour, not that we could write <video-player> and add some <source> elements and hope to get the same magic as <video>
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  711. # [14:54] <zcorpan> jgraham: right
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  715. # [14:58] <zcorpan> <video-player src="..."> also doesn't work, right?
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  719. # [15:10] <astearns_> JakeA: are you thinking of https://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/mistakes ? (it doesn't mention opacity)
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  752. # [15:50] <annevk> What is the task scheduler spec?
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  760. # [16:01] <JakeA> astearns_: that's it, thanks! I guess I was thinking of "and the alpha value should have used the same format"
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  786. # [16:31] <annevk> JakeA: beverloo: Notifications service worker API is now more or less done. I only need to define cleanup and actually dispatching the events in the service worker
  787. # [16:31] <annevk> It seems jungkees has defined a hook for that now, so hopefully that's sufficient
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  798. # [17:00] <JakeA> Excellent! Will review the API when I get the chance, I was a bit worried about `new Notification` being a gotcha inside a serviceworker, but need to look closer
  799. # [17:00] <JakeA> annevk: also, not at Fronteers?
  800. # [17:01] <annevk> JakeA: no unfortunately not
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  802. # [17:01] <annevk> Yeah if that remains a worry I guess we should discuss it again on the WHATWG list
  803. # [17:01] <annevk> Putting a method on ServiceWorkerRegistration seemed sensible since all other service worker APIs are defined there too
  804. # [17:02] <JakeA> I'm on MC duty Thursday/Friday. Writing the material now, but I think I actually have some not-taken time come Monday
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  858. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> JakeA: I remember that question somewhere as well. Maybe ask fantasai?
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  864. # [18:59] <Hixie> annevk, GPHemsley: yeah i don't understand what's up with GPHemsley's system. he can't log in, but with the same pasword it works for me. maybe have him send you the password and you can try.
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  880. # [19:45] <annevk> GPHemsley: you up for that?
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  882. # [19:53] <annevk> Domenic: so I want to upgrade a legacy API. Notification.requestPermission(callback). I want to fire the callback from the .then() of the promise I return. The reason for that is that it means the callback is fired at a predictable time relative to the promise's callbacks (just before).
  883. # [19:53] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  884. # [19:53] <annevk> Domenic: perhaps I should give up on that, but it seems rather neat. Otherwise there could be some time between the promise and callback.
  885. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> annevk: fire the callback in the promise, but return the chained promise from the method?
  886. # [19:54] <TabAtkins> I don't think that allows things to fire between, if you set them up at the same time.
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  888. # [19:54] <annevk> TabAtkins: I was just going to return the original promise
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  890. # [19:55] <TabAtkins> Hmm, that works too, since the callbacks are fired in registration order.
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  894. # [19:59] <smaug____> TabAtkins: not sure I see your point. There was one feedback in to one API it doing something..
  895. # [19:59] <smaug____> was that case even about param type validation or something else?
  896. # [19:59] <annevk> But if I queue a task and resolve the promise from that task I'd get the same, pretty much
  897. # [20:00] <smaug____> s/in to/to/
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  899. # [20:00] <annevk> Except there could be other microtasks in between maybe...
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  901. # [20:00] <TabAtkins> smaug____: You'd have to ask the person that posted that case.
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  905. # [20:03] <smaug____> maybe he reads @whatwg
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  908. # [20:08] <Domenic> annevk: that seems reasonable to me
  909. # [20:08] <Domenic> annevk: I think we hashed this out in that promises-guide bug thread and I pretty much ended up agreeing with you just haven't gotten around to updating the document yet.
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  925. # [20:36] <boogyman> Question to you fine folk. I am building a Cache interface, containing a Remove(key<String>) @return boolean signature. If I an implementor attempts to evict an item from the cache and it is successful (1) what is the return value? (2) what about if the eviction fails? (3) what about if the item is not currently being persisted?
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  929. # [20:41] <annevk> Domenic: so yeah, the next question would be what kind of shorthand phrase to use
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  936. # [20:59] <terinjokes> annevk: i was trying to understand the Fetch Standard
  937. # [21:00] <terinjokes> and wasn't sure how to an implementation was supposed to go from calling fetch() to actually fetching and handling a response
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  954. # [21:24] <Domenic> annevk: I'd do "Let p be a new promise ... in parallel: do stuff, resolve p with undefined ... upon fulfillment of p, fire an event ... return p
  955. # [21:24] <Domenic> boogyman: true; exception; false
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  973. # [21:57] <Domenic> MediaError is so sad -_-
  974. # [21:57] <Domenic> HTMLMediaElement.prototype.error could have been a string property containing "aborted"; "network"; "decode"; "srcnotsupported"
  975. # [21:58] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  976. # [21:58] <Domenic> instead it is an instance of a class MediaError whose only property is a numeric code which is either 1, 2, 3, or 4
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  984. # [22:20] <JonathanNeal> Is there something coming to future DOM JS that returns events as a promise or an observable?
  985. # [22:21] <caitp> returns events?
  986. # [22:22] <JonathanNeal> keyups = window.watchEvents('keyup'); keyups.then(function (event) {}) or keyups.forEach(function (event) {})
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  988. # [22:24] <runeh> JonathanNeal: a promise must always yield the same value, so that wouldn't work
  989. # [22:25] <JonathanNeal> runeh: true, so i'm probably thinking something more like observables in rxjs
  990. # [22:25] <caitp> it could work for a "listen once" kind of thing
  991. # [22:25] <jsbell> JonathanNeal: tabatkins had a neat idea http://www.xanthir.com/b4PV0 but I don't think it went anywhere
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  995. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> Yeah, steam got swallowed by binary streams, and we haven't come back around to object streams yet.
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  997. # [22:27] <Domenic> Jafar on TC39 basically wants to standardize RxJS
  998. # [22:30] <tobie> Domenic: I wish there were TAG-vetted (or similar) design guidelines available. Would avoid issues such as MediaError.
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  1000. # [22:30] <Ms2ger> Ha
  1001. # [22:33] <annevk> terinjokes: what is unclear?
  1002. # [22:33] <annevk> terinjokes: are you reading https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#fetch-method and following the links?
  1003. # [22:34] <terinjokes> yes
  1004. # [22:34] <JonathanNeal> Would this be a correct usage of this hypothetical EventStreams? https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/bf784b92fe277e084783
  1005. # [22:34] <annevk> Domenic: mkay
  1006. # [22:35] <Domenic> JonathanNeal: in my ideal world I think instead of adapter methods from DOM event patterns you'd have `document.on.keydown.map(...)` or similar
  1007. # [22:35] <terinjokes> annevk: reading it again makes it a bit more clear
  1008. # [22:35] <Domenic> maybe take the chance to camelcase while we're at it? `document.on.keyDown.map(...)`
  1009. # [22:35] <terinjokes> i guess i missed a line last night (i was a bit sleepy)
  1010. # [22:37] <Domenic> JonathanNeal: TabAtkins: EventStream.listen necessarily makes it a DOM API instead of an ES API, is I guess my dislike.
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  1012. # [22:37] <Domenic> I'd rather have EventTarget.toEventStream(document, 'add') I guess. (Or toObservable, or whatever.)
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  1015. # [22:39] <annevk> terinjokes: if anything is unclear let me know
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  1017. # [22:39] <annevk> terinjokes: I should add some examples as someone asked for
  1018. # [22:39] <annevk> so many bugs in standards
  1019. # [22:39] <terinjokes> annevk: i started working on a impl last night
  1020. # [22:39] <annevk> good times
  1021. # [22:39] <terinjokes> to understand it a bit more
  1022. # [22:40] <terinjokes> which is where i hit the unclear (to me, at the time) spot
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  1029. # [22:45] <annevk> terinjokes: the basic deal is that it invokes an even lower-level concept named "fetch" which at some point queues a task that yields a response which is returned by the promise
  1030. # [22:46] <annevk> terinjokes: meanwhile chunks keep getting pushed to that response's underlying body, which happens to be some type of stream
  1031. # [22:46] <terinjokes> i assumed something similar
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  1035. # [23:03] <annevk> tobie: or you know, WebRTC API in general
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  1042. # [23:19] <Domenic> annevk: MediaError is HTML
  1043. # [23:20] <Domenic> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/embedded-content.html#mediaerror
  1044. # [23:20] <Domenic> (Still lovin the html.spec.whatwg.org URLs, can't believe we didn't do that sooner.)
  1045. # [23:20] <Hixie> :-)
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  1047. # [23:25] <TabAtkins> Domenic: The precise shape of the "turn events into an object stream" api doesn't really matter.
  1048. # [23:25] <Domenic> TabAtkins: ya. BTW I also like that you have a ReactiveValue.
  1049. # [23:25] <Domenic> TabAtkins: have you seen https://github.com/kriskowal/gtor/ ? it is fun reading
  1050. # [23:26] <TabAtkins> Nope!
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  1062. # [23:56] <JonathanNeal> This EventStream thing seems pretty neat, but it’s also a little weird to think of a forEach asynchronously firing multiple times.
  1063. # [23:58] <Domenic> the alternative is Hungarian-style `asyncForEach`
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  1068. # Session Close: Thu Oct 09 00:00:00 2014

The end :)