/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-10-15 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Oct 15 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:21] <Domenic> annevk has always had the brevity bug
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# [01:27] <MikeSmith> if only his bug comments were as unambiguous as his spec text
# [01:31] <Domenic> How do I create new IndexedSizeErrors?
# [01:31] <Domenic> DOMException constructor doesn't seem to take a name param, just a message one
# [01:31] <Domenic> Hmm it's not implemented anywhere anyway -_-
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# [02:47] <MikeSmith> can somebody with dvcs.w3.org mercurial access please try to push a change to a dvcs.w3.org repo right now and see if it works
# [02:47] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: ↑☃
# [02:47] <TabAtkins> Sure, one sec.
# [02:49] <TabAtkins> I get the intermittent 500, but it otherwise seems to work.
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# Session Close: Wed Oct 15 03:39:42 2014
#
# Session Start: Wed Oct 15 03:39:42 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [03:41] * Topic is 'http://www.whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
# [03:41] * Set by annevk!~annevk@207.218.72.65 on Tue Mar 25 11:47:32
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# [05:47] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: ok thanks. not working at all for me, not sure why
# [05:51] <MikeSmith> ah wait pilot error
# [05:51] <MikeSmith> had just not updated my password
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# [06:11] <MikeSmith> anybody know how is there some portable way I can indicate that a particular python script is a python2 script, not a python3 one?
# [06:13] <MikeSmith> since putting "#!/usr/bin/python2" or "#!/usr/bin/env python2" in it isn't going to work in environments where there is no python2 binary/symlink
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# [08:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: but that symlink will be created in environments where there is Python 2, no?
# [08:30] <annevk> What's this brevity bug? :-)
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# [08:31] <MikeSmith> annevk: dunno how it works but I have no /usr/bin/python2 on my OS X machine
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# [08:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: the last bug there I think
# [08:32] <MikeSmith> oh no I guess one of the others
# [08:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12837#c10 I guess
# [08:32] <MikeSmith> > I'm confused as to what you want me to do here. Can you elaborate?
# [08:33] <annevk> Hmm, comment 0 and comment 1 seem pretty elaborate
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# [08:45] <MikeSmith> it seems #!/usr/bin/env python2.7 is probably what I should use
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# [09:16] <annevk> Hixie: are you still getting errors when trying to tweet?
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# [10:25] <mathiasbynens> annevk: to patch Poodlebleed, add `SSLProtocol All -SSLv2 -SSLv3` to your Apache config
# [10:26] <annevk> mathiasbynens: I don't have control over that
# [10:27] <hsivonen> annevk: maybe you could convince dreamhost not to care about IE6 whose admin can't be bothered to check the TLS 1.0 checkbox anymore
# [10:27] <annevk> mathiasbynens: however, with SNI being required, it doesn't seem like connecting over SSLv3 will work
# [10:28] <hsivonen> annevk: that's an even better point to make to dreamhost
# [10:28] <annevk> hsivonen: yeah I guess I could at least ask
# [10:28] <hsivonen> (although I suppose it also means it's not actually a security risk)
# [10:28] <annevk> Yeah, unless they support SNI over SSLv3 but I doubt that's actually possible
# [10:30] <hsivonen> even China isn't orange anymore on this map: https://www.modern.ie/en-us/ie6countdown
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# [10:30] <hsivonen> I wonder why Ireland and Estonia are "unknown" on that map
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# [10:36] <annevk> Interesting how this poses problem for Mozilla's servers as we still want to serve Firefox downloads to IE6
# [10:37] <ondras> dpes the poodle affect you in this particular scenario?
# [10:37] <ondras> *does
# [10:38] <ondras> I mean, who cares about secure cookies when downloading firefox from ie6?
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# [10:44] <annevk> ondras: yeah, the argument is that integrity is not affected, indeed
# [10:45] <annevk> ondras: it's still not ideal of course
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# [10:45] <annevk> hmm, ssllabs.com is down, how convenient
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# [10:46] <hsivonen> ondras: the main problem is that people who look at mozilla.org to mimic the config assuming it's the best practice may not realize that the servers on the path to Firefox download are a special case, because they need to work with legacy browsers that are used to download Firefox
# [10:48] <annevk> I recently learned we have https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Server_Side_TLS though it should really be on MDN
# [10:49] <ondras> hsivonen: okay; perhaps the exception (allowing ssl3) can be added just for the download domain(s) ?
# [10:51] <hsivonen> ondras: see the three levels on the page annevk mentioned above
# [10:52] <ondras> just looking at them
# [10:53] <ondras> well I would just turn sslv3 off, enabled that on download domains and note the real reason in the relevant config file
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# [10:53] <ondras> *noted
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# [10:56] <mathiasbynens> annevk: I use SNI and my server supported SSLv3 (i.e. `openssl s_client -connect mths.be:443 -ssl3` worked until I patched it this morning)
# [10:57] * hsivonen disabled SSLv3 before it was cool
# [10:57] <annevk> mathiasbynens: can you connect like that to whatwg.org or annevankesteren.nl?
# [10:57] <mathiasbynens> the h in hsivonen stands for hipster
# [10:58] <mathiasbynens> annevk: yep, both
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# [11:08] <annevk> mathiasbynens: I wonder how that works then
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# [11:10] <annevk> mathiasbynens: when I run that line for annevankesteren.nl I get a certificate from sni.dreamhost.com
# [11:10] <annevk> mathiasbynens: which is clearly bogus
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# [11:11] <mathiasbynens> same for whatwg.org
# [11:11] <annevk> mathiasbynens: so then it doesn't actually work
# [11:11] <mathiasbynens> well, it should still be disabled, but I appreciate that’s a Dreamhost TODO
# [11:12] <annevk> No disagreement there, but that you cannot use SSLv3 to connect to an SNI domain seems like enough of a safeguard
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# [11:13] <annevk> mathiasbynens: did you disable TLS 1.0 as well?
# [11:15] <mathiasbynens> annevk: no, should I?
# [11:15] <annevk> mathiasbynens: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Server_Side_TLS#Modern_compatibility
# [11:16] <mathiasbynens> ah, right, my current server hardware is too old to support TLS 1.2 for some reason, will migrate to a better one soon
# [11:19] <annevk> oh
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# [11:26] <hsivonen> I wonder if the EME bugs twirl filed are on his own behalf or on behalf of the TAG
# [11:28] <annevk> That the distinction still matters is sad
# [11:29] <annevk> But a lot of WGs appreciate arguments from authority :-(
# [11:30] <annevk> Maybe that's badly phrased. They seem to prefer reasonable arguments from a recognized authority over the same arguments from an unrecognized authority
# [11:30] <zcorpan_> is it OK that https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24691 is a UA-defined timeout?
# [11:30] <hsivonen> I'm mainly curious if those bugs reflect the thinking of TAG members more broadly
# [11:31] <hsivonen> the bug about presenting the license to the user doesn't make much sense for the use cases driving EME
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# [11:31] <hsivonen> the bug about platform segmentation is pretty much a generic anti-DRM bug
# [11:32] <annevk> hsivonen: I would expect anything outside https://github.com/w3ctag/spec-reviews/blob/master/2014/10/eme.md to be twirl personally
# [11:32] <annevk> zcorpan_: prolly not okay long term, but for now it might be fine
# [11:33] <hsivonen> annevk: OK, looks like the TAG is opposed to the fundamental premise of EME then
# [11:33] <annevk> zcorpan_: I suspect you wouldn't want to kill the SharedWorker before the task where load is dispatched is run in the new environment
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# [11:34] <zcorpan_> annevk: what about if the new document navigates before that?
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# [11:35] <annevk> zcorpan_: keep it alive? until cross-origin of course
# [11:37] <zcorpan_> hmm. then i guess UA-defined is ok
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# [11:41] <hsivonen> so the TAG basically wants standardized royalty-free DRM
# [11:41] <hsivonen> when even the codec the DRM-using services want to use isn't RF (H.264)
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# [11:55] <foolip> hsivonen, annevk, where can I read the latest about TAG vs. EME?
# [11:55] <darobin> hsivonen: while there I'd have thrown in a pony — you never know
# [11:56] <darobin> foolip: some pointers http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2014Oct/0066.html
# [11:56] <hsivonen> foolip: I was reading https://github.com/w3ctag/spec-reviews/blob/master/2014/10/eme.md which annevk pasted
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# [12:03] <wilhelm> I'm wondering how font sizes are most commonly specified on the web (em, px, %). Do any browser vendors have data on that?
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# [12:04] <MikeSmith> w3cmemebot, please process http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-capture/2014Oct/0181.html
# [12:04] <wilhelm> Or a corpus that can be grepped for 'font-size'.
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# [12:10] <zcorpan_> wilhelm: simons-mbp:webdevdata.org-2013-09-01-201332 zcorpan$ find . -type f -print0 | xargs -0 -P 4 -n 40 grep -Eio "font-size\s*:\s*[a-z0-9.%-]+" >> ../font-size.txt
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# [12:11] <wilhelm> Ahh, I didn't know about that corpus. Thank you very much!
# [12:12] <zcorpan_> it doesn't include external css but might be good enough anyway
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# [12:21] <zcorpan_> wilhelm: total font-sizes: 889057. px: 552165. em: 30154. %: 39637. keyword: 120. inherit: 679. unitless: 22
# [12:22] <zcorpan_> wilhelm: rem: 537
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# [12:23] <zcorpan_> wilhelm: pt: 199834
# [12:23] <zcorpan_> wilhelm: (vw|vh|vmin|vmax): 0
# [12:26] <zcorpan_> other units are also ~0
# [12:28] <smaug____> annevk: what is utterly broken?
# [12:28] <smaug____> in D3E/default action
# [12:28] <smaug____> it does explicitly say that click is special
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# [12:30] <annevk> smaug____: the whole isTrusted thing
# [12:31] <smaug____> I'm missing something
# [12:34] <wilhelm> zcorpan_: Wonderful! Thank you.
# [12:34] <zcorpan_> wilhelm: np
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# [12:39] <wilhelm> zcorpan_: Is there any plan to make external styles and scripts part of the corpus, or is that deemed out of scope?
# [12:40] <MikeSmith> in kenji's serviceworker comments what is MVP
# [12:41] <annevk> smaug____: it doesn't actually define anything
# [12:41] <annevk> MikeSmith: minimal viable product
# [12:42] <MikeSmith> annevk: is that some google term or do other browser projects use it?
# [12:43] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: It's a Silicon Valley startup term.
# [12:43] <annevk> MikeSmith: I hadn't seen it in use before, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_product
# [12:45] <darobin> it's not just Valley-talk, it's actually a reasonably useful notion
# [12:50] <wilhelm> zcorpan_: These numbers are remarkably interesting. pt is surprisingly common (22%), and % (4.5%) is more popular than em (3.4%).
# [12:52] <darobin> that strikes me as weird
# [12:52] <darobin> I mean, there's so much outreach info about using em out there...
# [12:53] <wilhelm> You mean em is surprisingly low?
# [12:53] <darobin> I reckon just looking at HTML is probably skewing the results
# [12:53] <darobin> yes
# [12:53] <annevk> darobin: gives you an idea of the reach of the outreach
# [12:53] <darobin> plus, who the fuck uses pt?
# [12:53] <annevk> darobin: DTP?
# [12:53] <wilhelm> I didn't expect it to be any higher. The only surprise here is pt.
# [12:54] <MikeSmith> MVT Minimum viable team http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_product#Minimum_viable_team I like that notion a lot better
# [12:54] <darobin> annevk: just including frameworks should change those numbers
# [12:54] <darobin> DTP?
# [12:54] <wilhelm> Desktop publishing.
# [12:54] <darobin> oh
# [12:54] <darobin> I'd be surprised it had this much of an impact, really
# [12:55] <darobin> I strongly suspect that relying on HTML only will heavily skew results towards sites that make massive use of the style attribute
# [12:55] <darobin> and those aren't representative
# [12:56] <darobin> it likely skews towards newsletters copied to the Web
# [12:56] <darobin> which are all sorts of wrong
# [12:56] <wilhelm> Indeed. We'll need the external stylesheets to draw clear conclusions.
# [12:57] <wilhelm> Context: I'm writing an article making the case that it doesn't matter what CSS unit you prefer. Use whatever you want.
# [12:59] <jgraham> It's nice to know that the web-dev wirld can still be dtriven to turmoil by subjects as weighty as the optimum choice of units
# [13:01] <wilhelm> Elaborate techniques are developed to appease the CSS unit deities.
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# [13:03] <wilhelm> Resulting in wonderful stylesheets with 1.42857143em line-heights, 0.0625rem borders and 41.66666667% wide columns.
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# [13:05] <darobin> wilhelm: isn't the only traditional consideration interaction with text zoom?
# [13:05] <wilhelm> Yes.
# [13:07] <wilhelm> And then added argument that "if everything is based on ems, your site will magically resize if you enlarge the text".
# [13:07] <darobin> yeah, that doesn't work
# [13:07] <wilhelm> In other words, you've just spent two man-days replicating page zoom.
# [13:07] <darobin> plus, you don't want that for all graphical items
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# [13:08] <darobin> the best approach is a mix of both IMHO
# [13:09] <wilhelm> Rummaging through old discussions, I found this gem: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/1995Dec/0004.html
# [13:09] <wilhelm> There was a magnification property in an early CSS draft.
# [13:09] <wilhelm> Which would scale up everything. Text, images.
# [13:09] <darobin> heh
# [13:09] <darobin> old stuff is golden
# [13:10] <wilhelm> This seems to be the first coherent argument in favour of ems, too: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/1997Nov/0078.html
# [13:10] <darobin> HTML 2 had urn="" as an attribute to links, and HTML 3.0 had md="" to do resource integrity checks :)
# [13:12] <wilhelm> My personal opinion is this: CSS pixels are great. Use them. Text zoom can safely be killed, now that web sites have sensible breakpoints with different styles for different viewport widths.
# [13:12] <darobin> that's an interesting take
# [13:12] <wilhelm> "Small screen" and "400% zoom" are two sides of the same coin.
# [13:12] <darobin> but....
# [13:12] <darobin> "now that web sites have sensible breakpoints with different styles for different viewport widths" *cough*
# [13:13] <darobin> too many still don't
# [13:13] <wilhelm> Don't they? Do anyone actually build web pages today that don't look okay on small screens?
# [13:14] <wilhelm> Legacy sites are a different story, of course.
# [13:15] <darobin> people still do yes
# [13:15] <darobin> hopefully fewer and fewer
# [13:15] <darobin> that said, I guess the people who don't also don't read your advice :)
# [13:15] <wilhelm> Nor the advice to use ems for everything, because accessibility.
# [13:16] <darobin> in fact, I wonder if they read anything
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# [13:17] <jgraham> wilhelm: You don't use the web on a small screen device, I see
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# [13:19] <wilhelm> This is the crux of my argument. Authors didn't care about best practices. So browsers needed to make things work anyway. Hence text zoom is hidden away, in favour of the full page zoom.
# [13:19] <wilhelm> Thanks to shiny new devices, not advocacy, authors care about small screens now. That gives us accessibility for free. Accidently.
# [13:21] <wilhelm> jgraham: I do. And most new content works fine on small screens.
# [13:22] <zcorpan_> wilhelm: how do you know it works fine because the site uses sensible breakpoints vs uses UA sniffing or so?
# [13:23] <wilhelm> zcorpan_: Valid point. My evidence is anecdotal.
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# [13:26] <wilhelm> More research is needed here. But that doesn't change my suggested best practice. (c:
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# [13:31] <wilhelm> I do wonder how we ended up with text zoom instead of magnification. Time to find some ancient browsers.
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# [13:39] <darobin> wilhelm: in a world in which everyone is doing fixed layout, you want text zoom
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# [13:39] <wilhelm> darobin: As in, one stylesheet, assuming a 1024px wide monitor?
# [13:39] <darobin> wilhelm: yes
# [13:39] <darobin> which was the norm until not that very long ago
# [13:39] <darobin> I'm sure quite a few people still do that
# [13:40] <darobin> also: table layouts
# [13:40] <wilhelm> It doesn't work very well in practice, though. Merely increasing the font size without changing the containing blocks tends to break things.
# [13:41] <wilhelm> The authors who don't read best practices isn't going to test for that.
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# [13:45] <wilhelm> You can make it work by making the size of the containing block depend on the font size. But then you've just reimplemented page zoom.
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# [13:46] <darobin> wilhelm: those layouts typically scaled vertically relatively okay; but yes — I'm not defending that as an approach, just pointing out the mechanics that led there
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# [13:52] <MikeSmith> annevk: so the CH-Context: serviceworker thing didn't go in right?
# [13:52] <MikeSmith> *, right?
# [13:52] <wilhelm> Yes. Also, until IE7, text zoom was blocked on any page with font size defined in px. There were plenty of good reasons for the best practices back then.
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# [13:52] <annevk> MikeSmith: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/commit/9445ff71ee97be11716c3d93a51e29da2b213678 seems suspicious
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# [13:53] <MikeSmith> yeah that's what I was just looking at
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# [14:00] <wilhelm> I'm really impressed by Microsoft. These old browsers still run on their latest operating system.
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# [14:02] * jgraham assigns wilhelm to review all their pending test submissions
# [14:02] * wilhelm runs away.
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# [14:08] <ato> There are about 5 kloc of WebDriver tests needing review if you have the time.
# [14:09] <MikeSmith> win 18
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# [14:12] <Manishearth> annevk: Any update on the XHR request termination bug I filed?
# [14:13] <annevk> Manishearth: not yet, sorry
# [14:13] <Manishearth> np, just checking that you had gotten pinged ;P
# [14:13] <annevk> Manishearth: are you blocked on it?
# [14:13] <Manishearth> annevk: Not really. mukilan has an unfinished fix for it that he can't push until we figure out how it should actually work
# [14:14] <annevk> Manishearth: okay, will try to get to it today; XHR has a couple of other outstanding bugs that would be good to finally fix
# [14:15] <Manishearth> annevk: thanks! :D
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# [14:21] <wilhelm> Text zoom seems to have been in Internet Explorer since version 1, predating their CSS implementation.
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# [14:24] <wilhelm> cwilso: Can you recall if the CSS 'magnification' property was ever disussed at Microsoft back in 1995? It's in a CSS draft that autumn, and then disappears.
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# [14:37] <annevk> wilhelm: was it renamed to 'zoom'?
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# [14:40] * wilhelm blinks.
# [14:40] <wilhelm> I didn't know about that one. Seems to have been implemented in IE5.5.
# [14:41] <annevk> Manishearth: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27033#c2
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# [14:41] <darobin> wilhelm: the zoom property is essentially used as a workaround for some IE bugs (I forget which, old stuff)
# [14:42] <wilhelm> darobin: Indeed, I see scattered references to it.
# [14:42] <jgraham> That's not really the *point* of it though :)
# [14:42] <darobin> wilhelm: you'll find it used in frameworks and such; possibly reset style sheets
# [14:42] <darobin> anything that basically papers over issues for you
# [14:43] <darobin> jgraham: from a webdev pov it pretty much is :)
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# [14:43] <darobin> ah, yes, makes display: inline-block work right
# [14:43] <Ms2ger> hasLayout, eh
# [14:44] * darobin doesn't even want to know how that was implemented in such a way that this has an impact
# [14:46] <tobie> zoom: 1 actually triggers box layout on IE
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# [14:47] <tobie> for ref: http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html
# [14:48] <zcorpan_> Hixie: why does <script> and <style> say that unknown MIME type parameters in type="" means unsupported? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27057
# [14:48] <darobin> ah, sad sad memories flowing back in :)
# [14:48] <zcorpan_> zoom:1
# [14:49] <zcorpan_> used a bit back in the day :-)
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# [14:49] <wilhelm> So IE did have the basis for a built-in full page zoom by year 2000, but didn't expose any such feature until IE7.
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# [14:50] <tobie> wilhelm: I don't recall that was the problem with IE < 7
# [14:51] <MikeSmith> "being defined by guess-the-spec-text-we-should-have-and-see-what-sticks"
# [14:51] <tobie> wilhelm: wasn't the issue just that IE didn't have proper text zoom when using pixel-based fonts?
# [14:51] <wilhelm> tobie: IE wouldn't resize fonts set in px.
# [14:51] <tobie> right
# [14:52] <wilhelm> Browsers have slowly hidden away the text zoom in favour of the full-page zoom. Opera in 1996, IE i 2006, Firefox in 2007, Safari in 2008.
# [14:52] <wilhelm> I'm trying to wrap my head around the history here. (c:
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# [14:53] <zcorpan_> i think old ie also had a bug with font-size set in em. text zoom would multiply the ems in the ancestor chain, or some such. % worked correctly
# [14:53] <tobie> wilhelm: don't do that to yourself
# [14:53] <zcorpan_> might explain why % is high for font-size
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# [14:54] <wilhelm> zcorpan_: Ah, indeed. IE3 would also treat "3em" as "3px". There were plenty of issues. NS4 had its own stack of them.
# [14:55] <zcorpan_> wilhelm: *that's* before my time
# [14:55] <wilhelm> :D
# [14:55] <darobin> please don't mention NS4
# [14:55] <darobin> I *still* cringe
# [14:55] <zcorpan_> darobin: NS4 NS4 NS4 NS4
# [14:55] <darobin> GAAAAAAH
# [14:56] <darobin> GAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAH
# [14:56] <annevk> NN4?
# [14:56] <darobin> IIRC IE3 would treat 3whatever as 3px
# [14:56] * darobin cries
# [14:56] <wilhelm> I'll make a t-shirt for you by TPAC. With NS4 on it.
# [14:56] * darobin sobs louder and louder
# [14:56] <darobin> you.... you wouldn't joke like that if you'd been there
# [14:57] <wilhelm> I was there. Jokes make it hurt less.
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# [14:57] <darobin> <LAYER>
# [14:59] <wilhelm> tobie: Since I'm back to building web stuff instead of browsers, I encounter large amounts of cargo cult best practices every day. This archeology has a purpose!
# [15:00] <tobie> wilhelm: do you actually mean you're DOGFOODING WEB TECH!??!!?
# [15:01] <jgraham> Well not really
# [15:01] <jgraham> It's only dogfood if you're also involved in building it
# [15:01] <jgraham> Otherwise it's just eating someone else's crap
# [15:02] <wilhelm> Hey, web development today is fantastic.
# [15:02] <zcorpan_> pop quiz: how many tags were there in "HTML Tags"?
# [15:02] <zcorpan_> (the thing from 1991)
# [15:05] <wilhelm> "Few".
# [15:05] <zcorpan_> i want a number :-)
# [15:07] <darobin> mmmm
# [15:07] <darobin> 12?
# [15:07] <darobin> (complete guess)
# [15:07] <jgraham> zcorpan_: As far as I can tell from reading it "infinity"
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# [15:08] <jgraham> Although it's a bit vauge
# [15:08] <zcorpan_> jgraham: not counting NOT CURRENTLY USED things. also reading it is cheating
# [15:08] * wilhelm cheated.
# [15:08] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Oh, well if you're going to introduce arbitary rules :)
# [15:09] <zcorpan_> correct is 21
# [15:09] <darobin> it's refreshing to see that the second is "Not good SGML" already
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# [15:10] <tobie> jgraham: I'm reassured. I thought someone was actively dogfooding this, thus refuting my claim that no one ever does.
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# [15:10] <jgraham> The second is actually marked "obsolete"
# [15:10] <zcorpan_> this was a question on a teambuilding at opera. iirc i was off by 1 by trying to remember and count the tags :-)
# [15:10] <jgraham> I'm not sure if that qualifies under zcorpan_'s underspecified rules of entry
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# [15:10] <wilhelm> 21, plus some crazy <hp1> tags? What were those?
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# [15:11] <jgraham> So I count 20
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# [15:12] <darobin> wilhelm: the ancestors of <b>, <i>, etc
# [15:12] <jgraham> Did I miscount or are obsolete tags included, but not currently used tags aren't?
# [15:12] <darobin> wilhelm: see http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/Future.html
# [15:12] <zcorpan_> i included nextid when counting
# [15:12] <jgraham> (I think it's more interesting that there are, depending on how you read it, an infinite number)
# [15:13] <darobin> <HP19879879>this matters</>
# [15:14] <annevk> Does each event loop have a networking task source?
# [15:14] <wilhelm> Aw, the "Bad HTML" chapter is such a nice peek into the future.
# [15:14] <annevk> It's still not clear to me how exactly those things interact
# [15:14] <annevk> Anyone?
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# [15:17] <zcorpan_> annevk: an event loop is either owned by a browsing context or a worker, and both of those can queue thing on the networking task source. afaict
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# [15:18] <annevk> zcorpan_: wouldn't I have an event loop and then queue a task on its networking task source?
# [15:19] <zcorpan_> annevk: i don't really follow the question
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# [15:20] <annevk> zcorpan_: say Fetch is passed in an event loop to queue tasks on, Fetch wants these tasks to belong to the networking task source obviously, how does it come together?
# [15:20] <cwilso> Wilhelm: no, magnification was not seriously discussed in Microsoft IE in 1995. (I was the only one working on CSS in '95). Zoom was the first MS adventure in that direction, as darobin said.
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# [15:21] <MikeSmith> "Can you please stop trying to guess spec text and explain what behavior you're after and why?"
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# [15:22] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, context?
# [15:22] <zcorpan_> annevk: i still don't follow :-(
# [15:22] <MikeSmith> not a thing you'd expect to be having to say to a spec writer
# [15:22] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: looking back at https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/356
# [15:23] <MikeSmith> comment https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/356#issuecomment-48703488 from bz
# [15:23] <wilhelm> cwilso: Thanks!
# [15:24] <wilhelm> cwilso: Was there any particular rationale behind the "don't resize fonts set in px" bug/feature back then?
# [15:24] <annevk> zcorpan_: as you said, an event loop belongs to a document or worker environment
# [15:24] <annevk> zcorpan_: Fetch belongs to neither
# [15:24] <annevk> zcorpan_: so Fetch is passed an event loop it can queue tasks on
# [15:24] <zcorpan_> annevk: ah. ok.
# [15:25] <annevk> zcorpan_: perhaps "queue a task to X on Y's event loop using the networking task source"
# [15:25] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: "Uh.. no. URLs of documents are immutable (modulo document.open). Performing a navigation creates a new document!" etc
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# [15:26] <annevk> MikeSmith: I thought that changed with pushState()
# [15:26] <annevk> MikeSmith: hmm
# [15:26] <zcorpan_> annevk: and then we have ping="" that needs to outlive the browsing context
# [15:26] <zcorpan_> along with sendBeacon and maybe <img>
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# [15:28] <zcorpan_> annevk: but yeah if you have a reference to the right browsing context or worker just use its event loop
# [15:28] <annevk> zcorpan_: the question was what language to use
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# [15:29] <annevk> zcorpan_: not entirely clear how sendBeacon and ping="" would work I guess
# [15:30] <annevk> zcorpan_: perhaps in that case no tasks will be queued
# [15:30] <annevk> zcorpan_: and for all other cases we rely on the document to terminate existing fetches
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# [15:33] <zcorpan_> annevk: <img> shouldn't be terminated, at least not when it's created in onunload/onbeforeunload or so. iirc
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# [15:34] <zcorpan_> poor man's sendBeacon
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# [15:37] <mathiasbynens> “With SSLv3 on its way out the door, we need to stop calling it SSL and start saying TLS #poodle” – https://twitter.com/webtonull/status/522379727840223232
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# [15:41] <annevk> mathiasbynens: already started doing that \o/
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# [15:53] <darobin> I'd never noticed that HTML 4.01 had shipped on Christmas Eve
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# [16:04] <annevk> Ooh, Chromium has shipped the Encoding API
# [16:04] <annevk> nice
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# [16:17] <zcorpan_> Hixie: caniuse now uses whatwg urls for html stuff (but not workers/websockets i think)
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# [16:31] <mathiasbynens> holy shit, facebook.com disabled SSLv3
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# [16:32] * mathiasbynens wonders what their IE6 stats looked like until now
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# [16:48] <annevk> mathiasbynens: there's no indication they enable/disable SSLv3 conditionally? Or redirect IE6 users?
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# [16:53] <cwilso> wilhelm: Yes. We didn't want to zoom all sizes - because remember, most screens were 72-96dpi at the time - so resizing an image by 13% would be ugly (we also couldn't afford interpolation at the time). And once you set a font size in px, you were probably aligning it carefully with other elements on the page - also set in px.
# [16:54] <cwilso> wilhelm: In retrospect, not the best choice. But even in 2004, during IE7, I had a serious argument about how zooming should work with the developer.
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# [16:55] <wilhelm> cwilso: This is very interesting. What were the positions in the argument?
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# [17:07] <mathiasbynens> annevk: how would you disable SSLv3 conditionally? I’m testing this with a raw `nmap` command
# [17:07] <mathiasbynens> annevk: also tested in IE6 and all you get is an IE error page
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# [17:12] <wilhelm> mathiasbynens: I'm hoping TLS will be the last nail in the coffin for the most ancient browsers. We recently blocked out all users of IE on XP on a major project. In my own locale, the last holdouts are the hospitals.
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# [17:15] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: Which reminds me, validator.w3.org doesn't like our TLS version either. validator.nu seems fine.
# [17:15] <wilhelm> MikeSmith: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=https%3A%2F%2Fsnl.no
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# [17:27] <Domenic> zcorpan: nice on the caniuse
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# [17:33] <annevk> mathiasbynens: not sure, depends on what's in the TLS handshake I guess, haven't really looked into that
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# [17:45] <MikeSmith> wilhelm: use http://validator.w3.org/nu/ instead of http://validator.w3.org/
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# [18:06] <cwilso> wilhelm: Essentially, I was arguing zooming should work like it does today in Chrome - it zooms all sizes, but the viewport's apparent size decreases.
# [18:06] <cwilso> wilhelm: the developer was arguing for a "layout zoom" - where you keep the layout static, and you always get scrollbars.
# [18:08] <wilhelm> cwilso: Yes, indeed. Coupled with some good media queries, I believe that gives the optimal experience today.
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# [18:11] <wilhelm> Works the same way in IE11 now, at least.
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# [18:13] <wilhelm> cwilso: Was the new (IE7) zoom thought of as a replacement of the old text size controls, or something in addition to them?
# [18:14] <cwilso> wilhelm: yeah, I eventually won the argument (in IE8, maybe). It was originally in addition to them. We finally got rid of the size changes, I think.
# [18:17] <wilhelm> cwilso: Thanks again for your answers! I'm trying to understand the history of font sizes in browsers, and this has been very helpful.
# [18:17] <cwilso> wilhem: np.
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# [18:40] <Hixie> zcorpan: so that ;e4x=1 doesn't get run
# [18:40] <Hixie> zcorpan: neat, did you send them a patch?
# [18:41] <zcorpan> Hixie: yes
# [18:42] <Hixie> neat
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# [18:49] <zcorpan> Hixie: unknown params get run for http content-type anyway. and gecko that does something with params and has supported e4x ignores params in script type
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# [18:50] <Hixie> <script> ignores http content-type entirely
# [18:50] <Hixie> anyway, if you have a test showing the spec is buggy, file a bug :-)
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# [18:51] <annevk> <script> doesn't ignore with the header that enforces MIME types
# [18:52] <annevk> that header is gaining traction
# [18:52] <annevk> unfortunately named as it is
# [18:52] <Hixie> oh well i don't spec that at all, so...
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# [18:52] <Hixie> (nobody's been able to explain to me what it does)
# [18:57] <annevk> https://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/ makes an attempt
# [18:57] <annevk> not sure if accurate
# [18:58] <Ms2ger> I wonder if WorkerGlobalScope.clearInterval's argument needs to be optional
# [18:58] <zcorpan> Hixie: this area is inconsistent in browsers and I'd like to make it more consistent. i haven't found anything that parses params but doesn't ignore unknown params
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# [19:00] <annevk> zcorpan: can't we move to an enum for <script type>?
# [19:01] <annevk> in fact, I thought it was an enum
# [19:01] <annevk> Oh god, I should stop running ssllabs.com on banks
# [19:02] <annevk> That's just depressing
# [19:02] <Domenic> hahaha
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# [19:32] <Hixie> zcorpan: yeah. we should probably rework that anyway to add type=module or whatever ends up happening for ES6
# [19:32] <Hixie> though now that modules are out of ES6 (?) i'm not sure what the state of that is
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# [19:34] <annevk> Domenic: you could var ex = new DOMException; ex.name = ...; throw ex
# [19:34] <annevk> Hixie: modules are in, loader is out, I think
# [19:34] <Hixie> what's a module without a loader?
# [19:35] <annevk> I just read the summary of changes, haven't actually looked in detail
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# [19:38] <zcorpan> annevk: what about canPlayType?
# [19:38] <annevk> zcorpan: I don't think all "MIME type" situations need identical solutions
# [19:39] <annevk> zcorpan: that is, either full MIME type parse, or enum, is my current thinking, with a slight preference to the latter whenever possible
# [19:39] <zcorpan> annevk: don't disagree
# [19:40] <annevk> https://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/ is making an attempt at specifying full MIME type parse, but have not reviewed it
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# [20:02] <Domenic> annevk: nope, .name is a getter
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# [20:27] <Hixie> good news everyone!
# [20:27] <Hixie> HTML5 is done.
# [20:27] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/blog/2014/10/application-foundations-for-the-open-web-platform/
# [20:27] <Hixie> guess i can mark the 223 open bugs as WORKSFORME
# [20:28] <Hixie> and i guess i should revert all the changes i made in the last few months that the w3c hasn't picked up yet
# [20:28] <Sample> sweet. it's HTML6 from here on out
# [20:28] <Sample> =P
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# [20:29] <boogyman> now, lets just get the marketers to stop using the reference
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# [20:31] <Domenic> if a spec has a version number you know it's not serious
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# [20:31] <terinjokes> Domenic: this is why the Sticker Constructor Spec has a draft number: https://github.com/terinjokes/StickerConstructorSpec/releases/tag/draft-0 ;)
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# [20:36] <wilhelm> Hixie: Congratulations! How did you manage to finish it 8 years ahead of schedule?
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# [20:48] <Sample> "My starting point for this discussion is that, now that HTML5 is done ..." that is quite the statement
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# [20:52] <annevk> Hixie: BufferSource is defined in IDL
# [20:52] <Domenic> ... or do you mean SourceBuffer ...
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# [21:18] <Domenic> I still want some kind of fuzzy-matching search within multipage html
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# [21:38] <MikeSmith> 4:24am JST
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# [22:38] <boogyman> darobin: stylesheets intended for print media would use pt.
# [22:38] <terinjokes> are psuedo elements at the root and on * the same?
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# [22:48] <gsnedders> hsivonen, MikeSmith: what does a parser need API-wise to be used as a the basis of a conformance checker?
# [22:48] <Ms2ger> boogyman, ha. haha.
# [22:49] <boogyman> ?
# [22:49] <gsnedders> BTW, what's the typical viewing distance of printed media?
# [22:49] <gsnedders> boogyman: you do know how pt is defined in CSS?
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# [22:50] <boogyman> I'm sure I did at one point.
# [22:50] <gsnedders> Oh, apparently it does allow the physical units to match up with physical measurements still
# [22:50] <gsnedders> and recommends that for print and other high-resolution devices
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# [23:01] <TabAtkins> terinjokes: No. Pseudo-elements on root are, well, pseudo-elements on root. On *, they're on all elements.
# [23:02] <TabAtkins> Did you mean the difference between `::before` and `*::before`? Those are indeed the same.
# [23:02] <TabAtkins> boogyman: pt and px have a fixed ratio, so it doesn't matter what you use.
# [23:05] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: a conformance checker basically just needs the parser to, well, expose the parsed document
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# [23:07] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: beyond that, for use with a conformance checker, it should be an error-reporting parser that does actually report anything that the spec defines as a "parse error"
# [23:07] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: as Henri's parser does
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# [23:09] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: as far as the nature of the API, it doesn't matter what kind of API it is except it ideally should be a streaming API that doesn't require constructing a representation of the entire document and keeping it in memory
# [23:10] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: e.g., a SAX API, as the vnu code uses
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# [23:13] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: so, concretely, if you're working on implementing a document parser I recommend you have it provide a SAX API or some whatever other kind of API that exposes the actual parse events/tokens
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# [23:24] <terinjokes> TabAtkins: that's what I meant, yes
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# [23:42] <Hixie> say i have changes to lots of files in my local copy of some remote git repo
# [23:42] <Hixie> i want to do the equivalent of "svn up; svn commit foo.txt"
# [23:43] <Hixie> am i right that there's just no way to do this anywhere near as easily in git?
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# [23:43] <terinjokes> Hixie: best I can think of is using git-stash
# [23:43] <wilhelm> Unless you have conflicts: git pull; git commit foo.txt
# [23:44] <wilhelm> If you expect conflicts, yes, git stash. Then you can resolve those later.
# [23:44] <Hixie> stash won't work as far as i can tell because i've already commited all the changes locally
# [23:44] <TabAtkins> Oh, then just pull and rebase.
# [23:44] <TabAtkins> git pull --rebase
# [23:45] <Hixie> it's the push part i'm having trouble with
# [23:45] <TabAtkins> That pulls in all the foreign history, and moves your commits to *after* all the foreign commits.
# [23:45] <TabAtkins> Then you can push, because your repo will then be consistent and mergeable.
# [23:46] <Hixie> if i push then i'll push all the changes
# [23:46] <Hixie> i only want to push the changes to foo.txt
# [23:46] <TabAtkins> Oh! Never done that before.
# [23:46] <TabAtkins> Pretty sure that's a lot more complex, because your history is a bunch of changes to all the files.
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# [23:46] <TabAtkins> You'd need to do some history rewriting, I think.
# [23:47] <Hixie> i hate git so much
# [23:47] <TabAtkins> Stop trying to use subversion in git?
# [23:47] <jgraham> What? If you committed all the changes why would you expect it to be easy to create a state that you didn't commit?
# [23:47] <Hixie> it's trivial in subversion
# [23:47] <jgraham> If that's true it seems fundamentally broken
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# [23:47] <TabAtkins> jgraham: subversion doesn't actually have local history, so there's nothing to rewrite.
# [23:48] <jgraham> TabAtkins: Right, so the difference here is "I committed the changes"
# [23:48] <jgraham> Which you can't do in subversion
# [23:48] <Hixie> "broken" or "easy", whichever you prefer, the point is i can do it easily in subversion and not in git :-P
# [23:48] <TabAtkins> Pushing to a remote repo is the moral equivalent of sending a bunch of patch files.
# [23:48] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
# [23:48] <Hixie> "svn up" is also easier in svn, since it doesn't require you to move your changes out of the way, it just updates you
# [23:48] <Hixie> the only reason i would need to commit or stash in git is to be able to pull
# [23:48] <Hixie> which is so weird
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# [23:49] <jgraham> That just isn't true
# [23:49] <wilhelm> So in svn, you'd leave the uncommited files scattered about in this scenario?
# [23:49] <wilhelm> What would happen with upstream changes to those files?
# [23:49] <Hixie> they get merged in
# [23:49] <TabAtkins> Hixie just got really used to subversions data model (or relative lack of it), and is still having a lot of trouble adapting to Git being more restrictive (and hasn't yet learned all the *good* things that come from that).
# [23:50] <wilhelm> Now, _that_ is broken. :D
# [23:50] <jgraham> Yeah, that sounds terrifying
# [23:50] <Hixie> why is that terrifying
# [23:50] <Hixie> it's perfect
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# [23:50] <jgraham> Modifying your local files under you without a commit to roll back to if things go wrong?
# [23:50] <wilhelm> So that would put you in a completely unknown state you can't recover from?
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# [23:51] <Hixie> why would things go wrong
# [23:51] <wilhelm> Because upstream changes were silly, and now they're in your file.
# [23:51] <jgraham> Umm, because merges are complicated
# [23:51] <Hixie> obviously if there's a conflict it won't merge them, just like with git if you rebase
# [23:51] <wilhelm> Which you can't throw away, because you'd lose your work.
# [23:51] <TabAtkins> From what I can tell, Hixie, your preferred model can be (terribly) grafted to Git if you just never commit, and always stash before pulling (and stash pop after).
# [23:51] <TabAtkins> And then only commit individual files immediately before you want to push them.
# [23:52] <Hixie> yeah seems that way
# [23:52] <jgraham> Yeah you can do that
# [23:52] <jgraham> But it will make children cry
# [23:52] <wilhelm> Yes. Sounds very wrong. But doable.
# [23:52] <TabAtkins> It should be obvious why this is terrible to those who use Git properly. ^_^
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# [23:52] <Hixie> in any case...
# [23:53] <Hixie> if i have three commits that are entirely unrelated
# [23:53] <Hixie> and i want to commit a specific one
# [23:53] <Hixie> how do i bring that specific one to the point where i can commit it?
# [23:53] <Hixie> git rebase something?
# [23:53] <TabAtkins> Go back to the last master commit. Branch. Cherry-pick the one commit you want.
# [23:53] <wilhelm> You want to _push_ a specific one? All commits are commits. There is no difference between your local repo and the remote.
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# [23:54] <TabAtkins> Then push that branch.
# [23:54] <Hixie> wilhelm: er right, push, not commit
# [23:54] <jgraham> Yeah, I'm with wilhelm; your requirements don't make sense as written
# [23:54] <jgraham> Ok
# [23:54] <Hixie> "commit" is the word sensible people use for what you kids call "push"
# [23:54] <TabAtkins> You push history in git, not commits
# [23:54] <wilhelm> Old people these days!
# [23:54] <Hixie> "save" is the word for locally commiting
# [23:55] <Hixie> :-P
# [23:55] <wilhelm> So. Broken.
# [23:55] <TabAtkins> Nah, just translation difficulties.
# [23:55] <Hixie> i can't believe i have to create a branch just to push a damn file
# [23:55] <Hixie> that's so absurd
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# [23:55] <TabAtkins> Hixie learned Subperanto as a child, the rest of us are native Gitish speakers.
# [23:55] <wilhelm> Taking a step back, why do you need to cherrypick like this?
# [23:55] <wilhelm> What's the use case? :P
# [23:55] <MikeSmith> Hixie: branches are super-cheap in git
# [23:56] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Again, you're chafing under the different data model, and suffering from a bad case of Blub Syndrome.
# [23:56] <Hixie> MikeSmith: branches are super expensive cognitively for me
# [23:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: branches are the normal idiomatic best-practice way everybody does work in git
# [23:56] <TabAtkins> Branch is just a pointer in git. ^_^
# [23:56] <Hixie> MikeSmith: since now i have to keep track of the working copy state, the commited state in each branch, and the remote state
# [23:56] <TabAtkins> It's a pointer to some particular commit in the tree.
# [23:56] <Hixie> MikeSmith: instead of just the local state and the remote state, as in svn
# [23:56] <TabAtkins> If you commit regularly like you should in Git, you don't keep track of working copy state.
# [23:57] <TabAtkins> You commit before switching.
# [23:57] <sgalineau> trying to use one source control system as if it were another guarantees some form of a bad time
# [23:57] <Hixie> wilhelm: i have some changes i need to make locally to use the code, but i want to contribute a patch that is unrelated to those changes
# [23:57] <wilhelm> No. The state is apparent from your commits. So every time you "save", that state has a name.
# [23:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie: that might be because you're cognitively/concpetually thinking of branches in the svn/cvs conceptual model
# [23:57] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Oh, for that, you probably just want to branch from the last foreign commit, and then manually copy your changes over.
# [23:57] <MikeSmith> Hixie: ah yeah still I get your point yeah
# [23:57] <TabAtkins> Then commit and push those changes.
# [23:58] <TabAtkins> After it's accepted, you can kill the branch and rebase your main branch on it.
# [23:59] <MikeSmith> Hixie: one thing is, your workflow works really well if you're not collaborating with anybody else. but it seems like it falls apart completely the minute you add one other collaborator
# [23:59] <wilhelm> Either that, or those files shouldn't be in version control like that. That problem arises every time someone puts a configuration file with actual configuration in it into version control, at least.
# [23:59] * wilhelm has purged database passwords from repos a few times too many.
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# Session Close: Thu Oct 16 00:00:00 2014

The end :)