/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-10-16 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 16 00:00:00 2014
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <Hixie> wilhelm: these are local patches i need to make because i'm porting the code to a platform the upstream code isn't intended for
4. # [00:00] * BlaDe^_ is now known as BlaDe^
5. # [00:00] <wilhelm> Oh.
6. # [00:01] <Hixie> wilhelm: but meanwhile i want to contribute a fix to some of the code that isn't platform-specific
7. # [00:01] <MikeSmith> anyway I fully agree that git is not winning any beauty contests as a far as being easy to use, or at least easy to learn
8. # [00:01] <Hixie> in svn, i can do this easily with literally just "svn commit <filename>"
9. # [00:01] <Hixie> it doesn't seem unreasonable to me
10. # [00:01] <Hixie> nor like something that should fail to work with multiple people
11. # [00:01] <TabAtkins> That's definitely "branch and do your patch there, so it doesn't interact with your main history".
12. # [00:02] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.202.45.163)
13. # [00:02] <wilhelm> It comes with the unreasonable part that your repo will be littered with random changes of varying origins. :D
14. # [00:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: you could do that just by working through a UI that immediately makes all your commits in the repo you want to push to
15. # [00:03] <MikeSmith> Hixie: e.g., the github Web UI
16. # [00:03] <MikeSmith> then you're never actually making changes locally, you'd just pull them when you need to build locally or whatever
17. # [00:04] <jgraham> Hixie: There is no such thing as a "local patch". There are commits on local branches, commits on remote branches, branches that have been merged to master, and branches that have not. But it's all commits
18. # [00:04] <Hixie> jgraham: so many things to keep track of
19. # [00:05] <jgraham> Hixie: No, there's just commits
20. # [00:05] <wilhelm> Yes. Changes == commits, with a name and date.
21. # [00:05] <jgraham> Instead of commits + random context-free patch files
22. # [00:06] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Well, you can produce patch files, but their only use is to email to someone else so they can apply it locally and commit it themselves.
23. # [00:06] <Hixie> i'm saying "A,B is simpler than A,B,C,D,E", and you're saying "A,B,C,D,E is simple enough"
24. # [00:06] <jgraham> Yeah, but the point is that git enables repository-centric development, whereas svn prevents it
25. # [00:06] <jgraham> Hixie: No
26. # [00:07] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Sure, but it's only simpler because you're working with a weaker model. You're chafing against a stronger model without yet understanding the *benefits* of the stronger model.
27. # [00:07] <jgraham> I don't think it's actually more complicated
28. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Well, SVN's data model, at it's core, can be seen as a degenerate form of git's data model.
29. # [00:08] <TabAtkins> Once you build over that model, both become complicated in non-subset/superset ways, but still.
30. # [00:08] <jgraham> I think you are neglecting the hidden complexity of svn not supporting many workflows, so having to hack around then with things like patch files
31. # [00:08] <roc> it is more complicated once you start dealing with the index/stash/cache :-)
32. # [00:08] <wilhelm> Change always involves some friction, even between equivalent complexity.
33. # [00:09] <roc> and local tracking of remote branches
34. # [00:09] <jgraham> roc: The staging area is one of several things that git gets right and hg gets wrong
35. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> YES
36. # [00:09] <roc> no
37. # [00:09] <sgalineau> lol
38. # [00:09] <Ms2ger> no
39. # [00:09] <jgraham> Making it explicit and avaliable for all opereations is so much better than having it work magically for add and delete but not being allowed to edit it
40. # [00:09] <TabAtkins> Sigh, mozillians.
41. # [00:09] * sgalineau had no idea IRC source control chatter could be popcorn-worthy
42. # [00:09] * Quits: Sample (~Sample@unaffiliated/sample) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
43. # [00:09] <jgraham> Hence mq
44. # [00:09] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@102.99.136.95.rev.vodafone.pt)
45. # [00:10] <roc> The staging area can be useful, but git forces you to learn it before you can do anything, which is wrong.
46. # [00:10] <Hixie> jgraham: i think you are neglecting the hidden complexity of supporting many workflows
47. # [00:10] <sgalineau> roc: really? I never used it but use git every day
48. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Ehhh, you can go a long while just using `git commit -am` (and remember `git add .` when you add new files) and not care about the staging area.
49. # [00:10] <roc> sgalineau: so you never use "git add" and just use "git commit -a" all the time?
50. # [00:11] <jgraham> roc: Less wrong than having "hg commit" just commit any random changes in your working directory
51. # [00:11] <TabAtkins> I *mostly* use -a.
52. # [00:11] <sgalineau> roc: f, i somehow thought you were talking about stashing. NEVER MIND.
53. # [00:11] <Hixie> "random" changes?
54. # [00:11] * jgraham always uses -p except in certian well-defined circumstances
55. # [00:11] <sgalineau> roc: but otherwise, mostly use -a yes
56. # [00:12] <TabAtkins> jgraham: I mostly work in self-contained units, so I dont' need to partial-add very often. ^_^
57. # [00:12] <Hixie> (btw it doesn't help that the git documentation is worthless)
58. # [00:12] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I do it to be sure I did in fact work in a self-contained unit and to increase the chance that I'll remember something that's missing by reading the patch again
59. # [00:13] <wilhelm> So it's you guys who keep commiting .DS_Store files? :P
60. # [00:13] <jgraham> Hixie: The git documentation is great. It just helps if you already understand git before reading it ;)
61. # [00:13] <roc> TabAtkins: if you're not comfortable blindly adding files with "git add ." (which you probably aren't if you're new to git), then you have to know about the staging area.
62. # [00:13] <roc> because you do "git add foo.c" and then you wonder why "git diff" doesn't show you that file.
63. # [00:13] * Joins: say2joe (~say2joe@rrcs-76-79-68-2.west.biz.rr.com)
64. # [00:13] <TabAtkins> jgraham: Ah, I just diff if I'm not sure, but whatever works for you.
65. # [00:13] * Ms2ger still randomly forgets to commit or add stuff
66. # [00:13] <sgalineau> which doc are we talking about? I thought http://git-scm.com/doc was useful
67. # [00:14] * Quits: KevinMarks_ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
68. # [00:14] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@102.99.136.95.rev.vodafone.pt)
69. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> https://marklodato.github.io/visual-git-guide/index-en.html is still a great doc too.
70. # [00:14] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@102.99.136.95.rev.vodafone.pt) (Client Quit)
71. # [00:14] <Hixie> how do you refer to "the last thing i checked out from the upstream repo" in git?
72. # [00:14] <sgalineau> yes. Git Immersion was decent as well
73. # [00:14] <Hixie> assuming HEAD refers to "the last thing i commited locally"
74. # [00:14] <Ms2ger> origin/master?
75. # [00:14] * Quits: Jirka_ (~Jirka@95.85.233.233) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
76. # [00:14] <jgraham> Hixie: origin/master, typically. or @{u}
77. # [00:15] <jgraham> @{u} is the upstream of the current branch
78. # [00:15] <TabAtkins> (Assuming that the upstream branch is called "master" as well, which it usually is.)
79. # [00:15] <Hixie> thanks
80. # [00:15] <Hixie> you'd think this would be documented somewhere on git-checkout got git-branch
81. # [00:15] <roc> the git man pages are terrible
82. # [00:16] <jgraham> (fun quiz question: how do you do the same in mercurial)
83. # [00:16] <wilhelm> Hixie: To me, it sounds like you're still thinking "commits are expensive, and a big deal", and that's where a non-trivial part of the friction comes from.
84. # [00:16] <roc> but that's partly because the git command-line syntax they're documenting is terrible
85. # [00:17] * jgraham is rather sure that the terribleness of the git command line syntax is something that "everyone knows" rather than something that's actually true
86. # [00:17] <Hixie> wilhelm: i'm not thinking anything is expensive except having to type commands
87. # [00:17] <roc> e.g. variously using the terms "index", "stash", "staging area" and "cache" to refer to the same thing
88. # [00:17] <Hixie> wilhelm: if it takes me 10 minutes per command i have to type in, one command is cheaper than 4 commands is cheaper than 12 commands.
89. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> Anything to do with rev-parse is pretty terrible.
90. # [00:18] * Quits: KevinMarks__ (~KevinMark@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
91. # [00:18] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@102.99.136.95.rev.vodafone.pt)
92. # [00:18] <jgraham> Yeah, rev-parse is obviously half-finished
93. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> My 99% command set is `git pull --rebase`, `git push`, `git stash`, `git stash pop`, `git commit -am "foo"`, `git add -p file.txt`
94. # [00:19] <Domenic> also lots of branching
95. # [00:19] <wilhelm> I rarely do anything sufficiently complicated to notice the so-called horrible command-line UI of git.
96. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> I don't branch as often as I should, but yeah.
97. # [00:19] <roc> TabAtkins: no "git rebase -i"?
98. # [00:19] <sgalineau> TabAtkins: no git checkout/git merge?
99. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> roc: I rarely have to go interactive.
100. # [00:19] <roc> no "git add remote ..."?
101. # [00:19] <roc> no
102. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> sgalineau: rebasing > merging. I don't branch very often.
103. # [00:19] <Domenic> ff merges only
104. # [00:20] <roc> "git branch -D all_the_stupid_local_branches_I_have_to_create_to_merge_stuff_in_github"?
105. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> roc: Handled by git cloning automatically. I've had to do that before, but only by copy/pasting from tutorials.
106. # [00:20] <wilhelm> roc: Rarely any of the above.
107. # [00:21] <sgalineau> 10 people in a room, 14 ways to use git
108. # [00:21] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@102.99.136.95.rev.vodafone.pt) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
109. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> Most of my git work is on repos where I push straight to master. ^_^ When I do work on PR-based repos, I branch more.
110. # [00:21] * Joins: satazor (~satazor@102.99.136.95.rev.vodafone.pt)
111. # [00:21] <wilhelm> My repos have half a dozen people in them, the biggest one apparently with 57 feature branches. Perhaps it's time for a spring cleaning.
112. # [00:22] <sgalineau> TabAtkins: I always branch for a bug fix since it might not be done by the time i need to go back to the main branch
113. # [00:22] <sgalineau> for instance
114. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> sgalineau: Yeah, that's what I should do more.
115. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> I get bitten every once in a while due to not doing that, and then having to branch and mess with history after.
116. # [00:24] <roc> that reminds of a classic piece of absurd git syntax: "git checkout -b foo" to create a branch. Because using "git branch" to create a branch containing your current changes would be too obvious.
117. # [00:24] * Joins: KevinMarks_ (~KevinMark@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
118. # [00:24] <sgalineau> roc: +1 I still type git branch foo half the time
119. # [00:25] * Joins: Sample (~Sample@unaffiliated/sample)
120. # [00:25] <roc> I was sort of hoping that my initial dislike of git would dissipate once I learned it properly. I was wrong.
121. # [00:25] <Hixie> http://damowmow.com/playground/git-notes
122. # [00:25] <Hixie> svn commit foo.txt seems to be equivalent to 7 lines of git commands
123. # [00:26] <sgalineau> that's what svn commit does?
124. # [00:26] <Hixie> as far as i can tell, in git terms, yes.
125. # [00:26] <Hixie> in svn terms, it just commits your changes to that file to the repo
126. # [00:27] * Joins: KevinMarks__ (~yaaic@c-67-164-14-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
127. # [00:28] <sgalineau> afaik git commit takes a file name as argument. now confused.
128. # [00:28] <roc> Hixie: I think you can replace those lines with "git add foo.txt # add foo.txt changes to the index" "git commit -m <msg>" "git push"
129. # [00:28] <jgraham> I… can't tell what kind of confused workflow you have to be using to end up with that mess of commands
130. # [00:28] <Hixie> sgalineau: "git commit" doesn't have an equivalent in svn, since svn doesn't have a local repo.
131. # [00:28] <wilhelm> You forget the part where you accidently nuke your uncommited changes in your svn repo.
132. # [00:28] <sgalineau> Hixie: ah, yes, duh
133. # [00:29] * Quits: satazor (~satazor@102.99.136.95.rev.vodafone.pt)
134. # [00:29] <sgalineau> Hixie: still, roc's alternative sounds like what I'd expect
135. # [00:29] <jgraham> roc: So¸ as best I can tell the problem is that Hixie has already committed the changes and now wants to undo those commits and push some different commits to upstream
136. # [00:29] <sgalineau> Hixie: I don't get why it needs to create the foo branch and ditch it
137. # [00:29] <jgraham> I don't know *why* he thinks he wants to do this
138. # [00:30] <MikeSmith> jgraham: I know I'm preaching to the choir but mq is just such a horrible hack, and so painful to use. It makes any of the git hassles in comparison look like .. not hassles. I say that after having used it by choice for some significant time. And yeah it's not a required thing but it seems to be worflow you inevitably end up with in practice in a lot of mercurial scenarios.
139. # [00:30] <Hixie> roc: that assumes your branch doesn't have other changes on it
140. # [00:30] <roc> Hixie: no it doesn't.
141. # [00:30] <Hixie> jgraham: i explained why earlier.
142. # [00:30] <sgalineau> Hixie: those changes aren't lost...
143. # [00:31] <MikeSmith> anyway, I'm trying to decide whether in this conversation to give more of my votes to Hixie's "why would things go wrong" or sgalineau "had no idea IRC source control chatter could be popcorn-worthy"
144. # [00:31] <TabAtkins> roc: You *do* create a branch with `git branch`. But `git checkout` is how you *switch* branches.
145. # [00:31] <Hixie> roc: then i don't understand it
146. # [00:31] <roc> Hixie: it assumes you haven't already done a "git commit".
147. # [00:31] <sgalineau> sounds like that's the problem
148. # [00:31] <roc> basically when you map svn into git, you would only ever do a "git commit" just before a "git push"
149. # [00:31] <wilhelm> This conversation feels a lot like RDMBS<->NoSQL arguments. One side ensures predictable, consistent data. The other is "easier".
150. # [00:31] <Hixie> roc: what's the difference between "that assumes your branch doesn't have other changes on it" and "that assumes you haven't already done a "git commit"" ?
151. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> Hixie: If you're *actually* using git as svg (no local commits), then `svn commit foo.txt` is just `git add foo.txt; git commit; git push`
152. # [00:32] <roc> right
153. # [00:32] <Hixie> i'm not trying to use git as svn
154. # [00:32] <Hixie> i'm trying to use git as git, as everyone always says i should
155. # [00:32] <Hixie> :-)
156. # [00:32] <TabAtkins> You're doing *half* SVN, in which case your request doesn't make a lot of sense within the data model.
157. # [00:32] <roc> yeah
158. # [00:32] * sgalineau shudders at half SVN
159. # [00:32] <roc> you can't use git like svn half the time and some other way half the time, in the same repo.
160. # [00:32] <Hixie> (is there some way to figure out what remote branch git push will use by default?)
161. # [00:33] <TabAtkins> But you can do it by copying the file into a buffer, branching from origin/master, pasting the buffer contents into the file you want, then commiting it and pushing.
162. # [00:33] <Hixie> roc: i'm not trying to
163. # [00:34] <MikeSmith> Hixie: "git remote" with no args I think
164. # [00:34] <Hixie> wtf. I'm in dir a/b/c and I do "git diff origin/master" and it tells me that I have a change in d/e/f. I cd d, do the same thing, no changes.
165. # [00:35] <Hixie> MikeSmith: that just says "origin"
166. # [00:35] <Hixie> which i don't think is a branch?
167. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Saying "I want to push a file" is indeed using half SVN. "files" aren't meaningful units in the git data model.
168. # [00:35] <Hixie> TabAtkins: that's not half-svn. it's half-filesystem maybe.
169. # [00:35] <TabAtkins> Which svn is closer too, yes.
170. # [00:35] <Hixie> TabAtkins: the reality is i have one file with changes in it and i need to commit it.
171. # [00:36] <Hixie> TabAtkins: that's just the situation, it's not an attempt to fit it to any model.
172. # [00:36] <TabAtkins> And the answer that we've continually told you is "branch and put the changes there".
173. # [00:36] <Hixie> right, which is seven commands
174. # [00:36] <Hixie> instead of hte one in svn
175. # [00:36] <Hixie> that's all i'm saying :-)
176. # [00:36] <Ms2ger> The branch-commit-merge model doesn't make much sense if you're the only one editing
177. # [00:36] <roc> TabAtkins: I pretty much always use "git checkout" to create branches, because it handles the two cases I care about and "git branch" doesn't. Namely: "create and switch to a branch where I can commit the changes I have already made to the working area" and "make a local branch tracking this remote branch and check it out so I can rebase and test it before merging"
178. # [00:37] <jgraham> Finding out the upstream of the current branch is slightly hard. git remote -v does it, or git rev-parse --abbrev-ref @{u}
179. # [00:37] <MikeSmith> Hixie: no I was wrong. I tried adnd I see "git remote" shows a list of all remotes
180. # [00:37] <jgraham> s/remote/branch/
181. # [00:37] <MikeSmith> yeah
182. # [00:37] <Domenic> FWIW I really find having a visual and manipulable representation of the tree to help me. E.g. https://www.dropbox.com/s/yxo8syn97lcvani/Streams%20git.png?dl=0
183. # [00:37] <TabAtkins> roc: Right, you usually want to combine branch creation and checkout. No disagreement ehre.
184. # [00:37] <jgraham> s/-v/-vv/
185. # [00:37] <Hixie> -v and -vv don't give me a branch name as far as i can tell
186. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Domenic: github provides a visual tree view.
187. # [00:38] <Hixie> git rev-parse --abbrev-ref @{u} works
188. # [00:38] <jgraham> Hixie: git branch -vv?
189. # [00:38] <Hixie> oh, i missed that edit
190. # [00:38] <Domenic> TabAtkins: sure but the whole point is to get a view of local vs. remote, and see the local tree evolve as you do things to it, before deciding what to push upstream
191. # [00:38] <Hixie> jgraham: thanks
192. # [00:38] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
193. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> I guess you work with more complicated things than me. ^_^
194. # [00:39] <roc> "git checkout" makes sense for the latter case, since I am actually checking something out. "git checkout" for the first case never actually checks out anything, so it's stupid.
195. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> roc: It checks out the new branch. I don't understand your confusion.
196. # [00:39] <roc> it doesn't modify the working area.
197. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> It so happens that the index is the same in the new and old branch, but your branch pointer is different (so your commits will hit a different area).
198. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> Yeah? Working area changes are never affected by a checkout, unless the histories are different in the files that have been edited.
199. # [00:40] * Joins: espadrine_ (~ttyl@AMontsouris-158-1-21-43.w92-128.abo.wanadoo.fr)
200. # [00:41] <TabAtkins> (In which case it wants you to commit or stash or what-have-you, so you can the existing mechanisms to handle possible conflicts.)
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202. # [00:42] <roc> "git checkout -b foo" never modifies the working area, it just manipulates branches. It should therefore be a "git branch" command.
203. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> roc: `git checkout` *never* messes with changes you've made in your working area.
204. # [00:43] <roc> not true
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206. # [00:44] <roc> "git checkout foo.c" replaces the working area's copy of foo.c with the index copy
207. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> Oh, sorry, yeah, a checkout of a *file* does that. A checkout of a branch doesn't.
208. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> checkout is overloaded a bit.
209. # [00:44] <roc> I think I win
210. # [00:44] * Ms2ger gives roc a medal
211. # [00:44] <TabAtkins> ...no? Not unless you think `git checkout foo` (to a branch named foo) should *also* be changed to a `git branch` command.
212. # [00:45] * Quits: scor (~scor@drupal.org/user/52142/view) (Quit: scor)
213. # [00:45] <roc> no
214. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Then I don't understand at all.
215. # [00:45] <roc> "git checkout foo" modifies the working area; it leaves your changes intact but rebases them to branch "foo"
216. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Because `git checkout -b foo` is precisely `git branch foo; git checkout foo`
217. # [00:45] <TabAtkins> Yes.
218. # [00:45] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@33.234-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) (Quit: nn)
219. # [00:46] <TabAtkins> And so does git checkout -b, it's just that the (non-modified) parts of the working areas are identical, because the new and old branch point to the same commit.
220. # [00:47] <roc> I think "git branch foo" should check out the branch. It's hardly useful as is.
221. # [00:47] <TabAtkins> Again, checkout -b is *solely* a concatentation of a branch and a checkout command, for convenience. Whether that belongs under the aegis of `branch` or `checkout` seems relatively arbitrary, but neither is "wrong", because it's *literally* those two commands.
222. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> I wouldn't disagree there, to be honest. `checkout` has overloaded meanings, and branch creation is rare enough that needing a flag to say "create branch foo" would be fine.
223. # [00:48] <roc> "git checkout" could just go away, or be reduced to the "check out a file" function.
224. # [00:48] * Quits: mven (~textual@32.97.110.57) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
225. # [00:48] <TabAtkins> But then we're talking about moving syntax around, not judging an existing piece of syntax based on other existing syntax. ^_^
226. # [00:49] <roc> it's part of the overcomplexity of git.
227. # [00:49] <roc> overloaded commands, and commands with the wrong names.
228. # [00:50] <roc> a new git user wants to create a branch for some changes they've made; they read the "git branch" man page but that's not enough. It could be enough.
229. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> All right, but that's the story of every successful technology, and I don't think anything is immune to getting things wrong in its history.
230. # [00:51] <Hixie> i don't think git is old enough to use that excuse yet
231. # [00:51] <TabAtkins> It's 9 years old!
232. # [00:51] <roc> Mercurial is much better designed (as of now; until recently it lacked important features).
233. # [00:52] <jgraham> It still lacks important features!
234. # [00:52] <jgraham> (see my pop quiz above)
235. # [00:52] <Hixie> 9 years old is not enough to be able to claim that basic suckage is just the result of being successful
236. # [00:52] <TabAtkins> And I disagree about better designed, but I'd be willing to chalk that up to Blub for the sake of getting back to work. ^_^
237. # [00:53] <roc> I think because at the beginning they focused on making simple things simple whereas git jumped straight to the Linus use-cases which committed them to a lot of ill-thought-out syntax early.
238. # [00:53] <roc> yeah
239. # [00:53] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Any age is enough when you get a popularity blow-up. It crystallizes decisions that should really have more thought put into them.
240. # [00:53] <roc> lunchtime
241. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> Ahhhhh, the more features someone used of Bert's preprocessor, the more of a pain-in-the-ass it is to convert to Bikeshed.
242. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> (I assume the same is true of Bikeshed to anything else, of course.)
243. # [00:54] <TabAtkins> But nobody actually *used* Bert's features, except Bert and jdaggett. :(
244. # [00:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: in other news while it's on my mind, I want say, I think we lost the fight a long time ago on discouraging use of meta@http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible" and making it a conformance error. See, e.g., bootstrap docs saying, 'To be sure you're using the latest rendering mode for IE, we strongly recommend including [meta@http-equiv="X-UA-Compatible"]' and we've lost on making it a useful conformance error. And now the validator reporting it as such is jus
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246. # [00:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie: so should I file a bug or what
247. # [00:57] <Hixie> MikeSmith: :-(
248. # [00:57] <MikeSmith> yeah it sucks
249. # [00:57] <Hixie> MikeSmith: so what are we saying, it should be part of the boilerplate like the doctype?
250. # [00:57] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: a SAX API that throws a fatal parse error when it hits content that needs buffering?
251. # [00:57] <Hixie> MikeSmith: what does IE do if you don't include it?
252. # [00:58] <wilhelm> Hixie: On poorly configured systems the user may not have control over, go into IE8 mode and break everything.
253. # [00:58] <gsnedders> Hixie: depends on configuration, whether the site is in the internet or intranet zone…
254. # [00:58] <gsnedders> Hixie: by default internet zone is latest, intranet zone was originally IE7 mode but I think that's changed?
255. # [00:59] <wilhelm> gsnedders: "Intranet" is fuzzy, in that case.
256. # [00:59] <Hixie> jesus wept
257. # [00:59] <gsnedders> I don't remember how Windows defines "Intranet"!
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259. # [00:59] <gsnedders> I'm just using the term it does! :P
260. # [00:59] <MikeSmith> Hixie: not sure what IE does but in practice all the boilerplate from boostrap etc include it, and best-practice/how-to guides all say to include it. So I guess that means we're really stuck with it now
261. # [00:59] <Hixie> fantastic
262. # [00:59] <Hixie> yeah, file a bug
263. # [00:59] <Hixie> i guess we require it? :-P
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265. # [01:00] <Hixie> with IE=edge ?
266. # [01:00] <MikeSmith> Hixie: meta viewport is another we're stuck with but at least that's valid now
267. # [01:00] <Hixie> we should clearly require that one too, with width=device-width or whatever it is
268. # [01:00] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah
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270. # [01:00] <MikeSmith> anyway I'll file a bug
271. # [01:01] <MikeSmith> and lord have mercy on me
272. # [01:01] <wilhelm> gsnedders: I removed that line from a publicly available customer site recently. Worked fine everywhere I tested. Bam, it broke on all their internal machines in some horrible Citrix environment.
273. # [01:01] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: yes, a SAX API that throws a fatal parse error when it hits content that needs buffering?
274. # [01:01] <MikeSmith> 07:57 Hixie: MikeSmith: what does IE do if you don't include it?
275. # [01:01] <MikeSmith> oofs
276. # [01:01] <gsnedders> wilhelm: that's why you shouldn't have customers
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278. # [01:02] <gsnedders> wilhelm: (on the other hand I like income)
279. # [01:02] <wilhelm> But.. they pay our salaries.
280. # [01:02] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: ideally with an option for buffered non-streaming parsing for those that want to opt-in to that
281. # [01:03] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: people are starting to more seriously try and build on top of html5lib
282. # [01:03] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: and to be clear, not a fatal parse error for the document, but just fatal for that part of the tree
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284. # [01:03] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: that sounds horrible to implement :(
285. # [01:03] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: If you know what I mean. That's how Henri's parser handles it
286. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: well, Henri did it. So we have an existence proof
287. # [01:04] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: is that even a conforming option per spec? I thought the options were stop parsing or continue per spec?
288. # [01:04] <MikeSmith> dunno
289. # [01:04] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: well, I'm not questioning plausiblity, just niceness :)
290. # [01:04] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: what makes a streaming parser better, though? ability to cope with larger docs?
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292. # [01:06] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: at least for henri's implementation it emits a messaging saying basically "I'm giving up on checking this part of the tree. [There may be errors in it but I'm not able to report them because that would require non-streaming parsing, which I'm not set to do right now.]"
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294. # [01:06] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: performance
295. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> and the ability to hook it into a pipeline and check things in parallel
296. # [01:07] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: which are the non-streaming cases? AAA, foster parenting? AAA seems to be hard to mark the right part of the tree, off-hand
297. # [01:07] <MikeSmith> can run multiple checks in parallel fed from the same parse events
298. # [01:08] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: yeah AAA and foster parenting
299. # [01:08] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: and I don't know how Henri handled it but I think it does mark the right part of the tree
300. # [01:09] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: It's Henri's code, I don't doubt it does. :)
301. # [01:09] <MikeSmith> heh
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303. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> anyway, the model of being able to use multiple SAX contenthandlers in parallel is really powerful for implementing a checker, and just makes a lot of things much easier/doable
304. # [01:11] <gsnedders> well you should always be able to implement something that multiplies events
305. # [01:11] <gsnedders> given a normal singular SAX handler
306. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> yeah I just mean the benefit of SAX, of exposing a SAX API
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308. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> but more generally exposing any kind of parse-event API at all is a win for this kind of use case (checkers)
309. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> and in practice, "exposing any kind of parse-event API" pretty much just means SAX
310. # [01:15] <MikeSmith> *means just use SAX, because it's sane and nobody has come up with anything that's radically better
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389. # [05:44] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: > people are starting to more seriously try and build on top of html5lib
390. # [05:45] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: yeah that's when you have to start caring about some things more
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444. # [09:34] <annevk> Someone from Microsoft filing bugs on Chrome
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446. # [09:36] <ondras> <
447. # [09:36] <ondras> oops.
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451. # [09:50] <annevk> I too find Git hard
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453. # [09:50] <annevk> But GitHub's client makes it somewhat straightforward
454. # [09:50] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: well I'm not sure I care enough to implement all this stuff myself, just nice to have some idea of what we should have :P
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470. # [10:42] <ato> annevk: I tried using the Mac client but /it/ was confusing to me.
471. # [10:42] <ato> It's good that there are many choices though.
472. # [10:42] <annevk> ato: works fine here and they keep updating it too
473. # [10:45] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: huh? i thought v.nu stopped parsing for non-streamable errors. do you have an example where it doesn't?
474. # [10:47] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: AAA and foster parenting both give fatal errors for me
475. # [10:49] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: are you thinking of "Element foo not allowed as child of element body in this context. (Suppressing further errors from this subtree.)" ?
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477. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_: yeah maybe I was. not sure what i was thinking because I've actually not gotten more than a couple hours sleep in the last 24
478. # [10:52] * MikeSmith reads his own scrollback
479. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: yeah as zcorpan_ points out, what I said was wrong
480. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> for the cases that require non-streaming parsing the validator emits one error and then exits
481. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> "Can't recover from previous error" or something like
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483. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> I guess I was conflating with the "Suppressing further errors from this subtree" case that zcorpan_ cites
484. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> and maybe also thinking about my testrunner code where they're not fatal errors for teh testrunner, where I'm feeding it multiple documents and checking for expected failures
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508. # [12:04] <hsivonen> I'm still posting to www-tag more often than I post to the whatwg list. :-(
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517. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> w3cmemebot, process previous line
518. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> Yeah
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520. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> there's someone wrong on the Internet^w^wwww-tag
521. # [12:25] <hsivonen> SimonSapin: you asked earlier if the platform needs an XML parser for purposes other than SVG and XSLT. There's also XHTML (tiny but exists), DOMParser and XHR
522. # [12:25] <SimonSapin> hsivonen: ok, thanks
523. # [12:25] <zcorpan_> annevk: hmm. maybe you need to run those from a local webserver or so. https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12837
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528. # [12:38] <annevk> zcorpan_: put them on simon.html5.org?
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531. # [12:42] <annevk> matijs: on DNSSEC: https://twitter.com/twitjeb/status/519058750297366528
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533. # [12:51] <zcorpan_> annevk: https://simon.html5.org/dump/unload-baseline.html https://simon.html5.org/dump/unload-xhr.html -- but.... now the xhr one also survives in gecko :-/
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539. # [13:13] <annevk> zcorpan_: yeah it does
540. # [13:13] <annevk> zcorpan_: so what does that mean?
541. # [13:14] <annevk> zcorpan_: in Chrome it's reparsed for both
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543. # [13:15] <zcorpan_> annevk: when navigating back to a document, either it's reparsed so that <script> execute again (among other things), or it's cached so timeouts e.g. pending timeouts continue
544. # [13:15] <zcorpan_> annevk: i think chrome/webkit might always reparse
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553. # [13:51] <annevk> zcorpan_: thanks for those btw
554. # [13:54] <zcorpan_> annevk: welcome. i'm not sure why i see different result now though.
555. # [13:54] <annevk> we might have made changes due to hitting compat issues
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557. # [13:54] <annevk> the whole history / navigate stuff cannot really be relied upon :-(
558. # [13:54] <annevk> defining life cycles is hard
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568. # [14:29] <zcorpan_> annevk: i get an error event on the xhr when navigating away https://simon.html5.org/dump/unload-xhr.html
569. # [14:31] <annevk> hmm
570. # [14:32] <annevk> i would have expected nothing
571. # [14:32] <annevk> sigh, this is hard
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575. # [14:52] <rubys> SimonSapin: ping?
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591. # [15:26] <annevk> rubys: did you figure out why you're getting different results in IE?
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594. # [15:31] <rubys> annevk: which results?
595. # [15:31] <annevk> rubys: e.g. pathname not starting with a /
596. # [15:32] <rubys> annevk: a google search indicates that lots of people are seeing this, and that IE is out of spec.
597. # [15:32] <annevk> rubys: e.g. <a href=http://0xc0.168.0.1></a><script>w(document.querySelector("a").pathname)</script> gives / for me
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599. # [15:33] <annevk> rubys: in IE10
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601. # [15:33] <annevk> rubys: using Live DOM Viewer
602. # [15:34] * rubys checking my doctype
603. # [15:35] <annevk> (adding <!doctype html> doesn't change anything)
604. # [15:36] <rubys> here is my script: http://intertwingly.net/stories/2014/10/05/urltest
605. # [15:36] <annevk> "In IE10 Standards mode, the host and pathname DOM properties no longer return unexpected results."
606. # [15:36] <annevk> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ieinternals/archive/2012/03/01/ie10-beta-consumer-preview-minor-changes-changelist.aspx
607. # [15:36] <rubys> any idea why my script wouldn't be treated in standards mode?
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611. # [15:39] <rubys> annevk: I'm running IE11, but I would hope that MS wouldn't have reverted that.
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613. # [15:39] <annevk> rubys: I think the results might differ if you create the element through script
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615. # [15:40] <annevk> <!doctype html><script>a = document.createElement("a");a.setAttribute("href","http://0xc0.168.0.1"); w(a.pathname)</script>
616. # [15:40] <annevk> gives "" in the log
617. # [15:40] <annevk> (I also tried setting .href, same result)
618. # [15:41] <rubys> annevk: yuk
619. # [15:41] <annevk> agreed
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621. # [15:43] <annevk> And you're testing in IE11?
622. # [15:43] <annevk> Wow, they're bad at fixing bugs, perhaps because Eric left the company
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624. # [15:44] <annevk> Or maybe they fixed it but then decided they could not ship it due to compat
625. # [15:44] <rubys> annevk: I'm testing using a VM from here: https://www.modern.ie/en-us/virtualization-tools#downloads
626. # [15:44] <rubys> IE11 / Win8.1
627. # [15:46] <rubys> annevk: other things I have done recently: I've added Rust and Node.js to my results: http://intertwingly.net/stories/2014/10/16/urltest-results/
628. # [15:46] <annevk> cool
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630. # [15:47] <rubys> annevk, SimonSapin: I would appreciate somebody giving http://intertwingly.net/stories/2014/10/16/urltest.rs a glance to see if I got it right, or if it could be done better.
631. # [15:47] <rubys> After all, I didn't know Rust as of two days ago.
632. # [15:47] <annevk> I haven't written any Rust yet so I'll let SimonSapin do that
633. # [15:48] <rubys> I also attempted a manual three-way merge of the urltestdata from rust-url and web-platform-tests
634. # [15:48] <rubys> https://github.com/servo/rust-url/pull/39 and https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1293
635. # [15:50] <annevk> For the spec there's these projects on the todo: 1) Rewrite parsing in a more functional style 2) Introduce IPv4 parsing 3) Investigate if we can allow non-browser schemes make use of "relative url" parsing facilities in a generic way
636. # [15:52] <rubys> since rust-url seems to be a motivating factor for #1, I'm looking into rust-url.
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638. # [15:53] <rubys> If I can wrap my head around it, I may try to help with #1
639. # [15:55] <annevk> Yeah, SimonSapin proving it could be done just as efficient with a clearer style is the main factor for that one
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648. # [16:21] <annevk> rubys: I can reproduce my IE10 results in IE11
649. # [16:21] <rubys> so <a> works, document.createElement doesn't?
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655. # [16:39] <annevk> yup
656. # [16:40] <annevk> I don't want to know what their code looks like
657. # [16:40] <rubys> luckily you can't :-)
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659. # [16:41] <Domenic> rubys: what do the colours mean now? Can you include a legend on the page?
660. # [16:42] <rubys> I'll add a legend. Meanwhile, here is what the colors mean: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2014/10/02/WHATWG-URL-vs-IETF-URI#c1412684307
661. # [16:42] <rubys> ... where 'testdata' is substituted for 'whatwg'
662. # [16:43] <rubys> I got pushback when I called testdata 'whatwg'. I got pushback when I called anything not testdata 'whatwg'. So I gave up :-)
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664. # [16:46] <annevk> rubys: ericlaw suggests a workaround, appendChild() the element and then check its pathname
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666. # [16:47] <rubys> Or, I can simply change the test to use an <a> element.
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669. # [16:56] <Domenic> rubys: what does the "notes" field contain? I'm guessing, the environments which fail to match?
670. # [16:57] <rubys> if you click through, you will see one or more issues with that user agent
671. # [16:57] <rubys> so essentially, yes
672. # [16:58] <Domenic> cool. will be interesting to see the results with IE fixed
673. # [16:59] <rubys> I'll run that in a few minutes
674. # [17:00] <annevk> rubys: "addressable" is what was formerly IETF?
675. # [17:00] <rubys> annevk: yes.
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679. # [17:03] <annevk> rubys: any reason why we include Opera Presto?
680. # [17:04] <annevk> s/we/you/
681. # [17:04] <rubys> zcorpan felt it should be included. http://intertwingly.net/blog/2014/10/02/WHATWG-URL-vs-IETF-URI#c1412536749 http://intertwingly.net/blog/2014/10/02/WHATWG-URL-vs-IETF-URI#c1412583899
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683. # [17:07] <Domenic> addressable is just a Ruby library right?
684. # [17:08] <rubys> yes, but it is one that I have confidence that it attempts to faithfully implement the IETF RFCs.
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689. # [17:12] <rubys> IE results updated, generating new results
690. # [17:14] <rubys> annevk: any reason why resolving a URL against a base couldn't be factored out in the URL standard? In other words, define what parsing a URL means,and define what resolving a URL against a base means?
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692. # [17:15] <rubys> annevk, Domenic: new results uploaded. Changes in IE results, table header, and new legend at the bottom of the index page.
693. # [17:17] <annevk> rubys: that would have a pretty major impact on what a URL was
694. # [17:17] <annevk> is*
695. # [17:18] <annevk> rubys: I also haven't found that any browser actually does that
696. # [17:18] <rubys> annevk: can you give an example where it would be difficult to do and/or operationally it would produce different results?
697. # [17:19] <annevk> rubys: well e.g. new URL("/test") would no longer throw, presumably?
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699. # [17:19] <rubys> presumably. Do any browsers expose URL?
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701. # [17:20] <Domenic> all of them do by this point. except IE maybe
702. # [17:21] <Domenic> Still so many IE failures :(
703. # [17:23] <annevk> rubys: I get .protocol to work in IE only for an element that was already in the document
704. # [17:24] <annevk> rubys: so many bugs there :-(
705. # [17:25] <annevk> rubys: at least Firefox/Chrome/Safari support new URL()
706. # [17:25] <annevk> rubys: also Opera, not sure about Presto
707. # [17:25] <rubys> annevk: I presume that you have whatever access you need to do @ericlaw suggested, i.e. "Please file a bug on Connect?"
708. # [17:25] <annevk> Yeah I guess I can do that again...
709. # [17:28] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
710. # [17:31] <Domenic> https://github.com/whatwg/fetch/issues/11 is interesting
711. # [17:31] <Domenic> -1 on ES5 syntax of course
712. # [17:31] <Domenic> unsure on whether early examples make sense
713. # [17:31] <Domenic> given that the spec is only in a small part about developer-facing API
714. # [17:32] <annevk> https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedbackdetail/view/1002884/protocol-attribute-does-not-always-work
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716. # [17:33] <annevk> Hmm I thought I had issues disabled
717. # [17:33] <Domenic> yeah that was surprising as well
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726. # [17:47] <annevk> rubys: note that new URL() not dealing with it does not necessarily preclude us from structuring the specification in that way, though there might be other pitfalls given that implementations have no such thing
727. # [17:48] <rubys> My thoughts are that it might be simpler to spec that way; but it will take actually trying to determine if there are any pitfalls.
728. # [17:50] <rubys> my line of thinking: I was reading rust-url, and was wondering what it would look like in ABNF. Then I realized that I don't know how to describe parsing two inputs in ABNF. Also, many libraries aren't structured this way.
729. # [17:52] <annevk> If you exclude the most widely deployed libraries?
730. # [17:54] <rubys> annevk: no question new URL() behavior shouldn't change. The question is whether a cleaner and simpler spec could be structured differently.
731. # [17:55] <annevk> No I meant that browser implementations have those operations not decoupled either
732. # [17:57] <annevk> But it's worth figuring out I suppose. A handful of people have asked for that and there might be some cases where you want to parse a URL without a base URL. (We want to be certain on that might before doing this, obviously.)
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735. # [17:58] <Domenic> Doesn't it make more sense to just make parsing "without a base URL" a special case of parsing with a base URL?
736. # [17:58] <Domenic> e.g. parsing "without a base URL" = parsing with base URL "about:blank"
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739. # [17:59] <rubys> Domenic: see above. "Then I realized that I don't know how to describe parsing two inputs in ABNF."
740. # [17:59] <Domenic> why is that important
741. # [17:59] <Domenic> seems conceptually less simple and clean
742. # [18:00] <rubys> Breaking a hard problem into two smaller problems is less simple and less clean?
743. # [18:00] <Domenic> creating two separate problems instead of making one a special case of the other, yeah
744. # [18:02] <annevk> Domenic: rubys is suggesting that parsing "/foo" would result in some kind of construct that the specification currently does not acknowledge
745. # [18:03] <annevk> Domenic: the specification does indeed default to something akin to about:blank at the moment, return failure for "/foo" as input
746. # [18:03] <annevk> returning*
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766. # [18:41] <Domenic> annevk: yeah, seems very much like two problems, as now you have to create a whole new set of data structures to represent not-really-URLs like "/foo"
767. # [18:42] <rubys> Is "scheme" exposed by browsers, or only "protocol"?
768. # [18:43] <rubys> looking at the Rust implementation, it has an intermediate representation for relative URLs.
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873. # [22:42] <annevk> http://www.apple.com/ipad-air-2/wireless/ This new Apple SIM card thing seems interesting. Seems they finally found enough support to do the thing they have wanted to do since the beginning, although more modestly still. Can't wait for SIM cards to finally die in a fire.
874. # [22:43] <annevk> (I wanted to link directly to the SIM card bit, but although there's many data and class attributes there, no id attribute to be found.)
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876. # [22:45] <Domenic> that is nice
877. # [22:48] <Domenic> would like feedback on spec-writing matters: https://github.com/whatwg/streams/pull/233
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880. # [22:51] <tantek> annevk: http://www.apple.com/ipad-air-2/wireless/##Apple%20SIM
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883. # [22:52] <annevk> tantek: how does that work?
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885. # [22:53] <tantek> annevk: http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention
886. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> It doesnt' work, he's just using a fragmention scheme that could maybe work in the future.
887. # [22:53] <Domenic> it doesn't seem to actually work
888. # [22:53] <tantek> e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention##Chrome%20extension works
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890. # [22:54] <tantek> works with polyfill just fine TabAtkins Domenic
891. # [22:54] <Domenic> sure but you implied that the link you actually sent worked
892. # [22:55] <tantek> Domenic: not at all, merely answering the use-case of "I wanted to link directly to the SIM card bit" - which I did
893. # [22:55] <tantek> and if your browser supports it (e.g. via an extension), then that apple.com link even "works"
894. # [22:56] <tantek> hence why I linked specifically to the Chrome extension
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898. # [22:58] <annevk> Domenic: gave some feedback, not sure if it helps
899. # [22:59] <Domenic> annevk: heh, yeah, not sure either. thanks though.
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902. # [23:02] <annevk> Domenic: looking closer, it seems your current approach avoids duplication
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905. # [23:03] <Domenic> annevk: I don't think so though. Because I only ever call each method once in the spec. It avoids branching in favor of polymorphism I guess.
906. # [23:04] <annevk> Domenic: the behavior of %DefaultReadableStreamStrategy% would not be duplicated if you branch?
907. # [23:04] <Domenic> annevk: right it would just be inlined
908. # [23:04] <annevk> Domenic: I'd prolly do that then
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911. # [23:05] <annevk> Domenic: but if it's not observable and both are sufficiently clear, it's really up to you
912. # [23:05] <Domenic> annevk: yeah I am leaning toward inlining.
913. # [23:06] <Domenic> (updated the post with links to the places where it's assigned and used)
914. # [23:06] <Domenic> annevk: but yeah I think it is subjective which is why I am asking around
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916. # [23:11] <annevk> Domenic: I appreciate the attention to detail, I hope in due course we come up with some rules to align other specifications with
917. # [23:11] <Domenic> annevk: that's the hope ^_^
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927. # [23:23] <Domenic> TabAtkins: I am trying to port over the self-link styling to the WHATWG style sheet. Do you remember where font-size: 83% comes from?
928. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> It looked okay.
929. # [23:24] <Domenic> figured
930. # [23:24] <TabAtkins> Also, it's 5/6
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940. # [23:42] <foolip> TabAtkins: are any of *.spec.whatwg.org using bikeshed?
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942. # [23:43] <Domenic> foolip: https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/ !
943. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> Just streams so far, I think.
944. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> But more of w3 than I thought is using it now.
945. # [23:46] <foolip> cool, Streams looks very WHATWGy, like the rest
946. # [23:46] <foolip> I also like the logo :)
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948. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> Yeah, style has nothing to do with Bikeshed, you can provide whatever boilerplate and styling you want.
949. # [23:46] <Domenic> Speaking of which, refresh the page to check out the sweet new link anchors next to every header and <dfn>
950. # [23:46] <foolip> context: I'm not so happy with ReSpec for the WebVTT spec
951. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> And since Domenic set up all the boilerplates and PR'd them into Bikeshed, anyone else wanting WHATWG style can use them too. ^_^
952. # [23:47] <foolip> I've had to fix a phantomjs crash to make it actually work for automatic updates :/
953. # [23:47] <Domenic> TabAtkins: how I remember it, I pretty much just flailed around ineptly until you ended up doing the work for me :P
954. # [23:47] <foolip> Domenic: oh yeah, I love those anchors :)
955. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> Eh, close enough.
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967. # Session Close: Fri Oct 17 00:00:00 2014

The end :)