/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-10-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 20 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] <boogyman> is anyone else getting a 406 (not accepted) for stylesheet requests to w3c.org ?
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  5. # [00:04] <boogyman> btw, this only occurs with Chrome 38.0.2125.104m on Windows 8
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  45. # [01:45] <MikeSmith> boogyman: sounds like you may have hit the rate limiter
  46. # [01:46] <Hixie> zewt: it's a wildcard for *.spec.whatwg.org
  47. # [01:46] <boogyman> for single requests? interesting.
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  49. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> ah wait no if that were the case you'd be getting 503s
  50. # [01:49] <MikeSmith> what is a 406?
  51. # [01:50] <boogyman> not accepted
  52. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> actually "not acceptable" it seems
  53. # [01:51] <boogyman> So, should I be filing a bug with Chrome? because I was just attempting to load the w3c.org site, not doing anything fancy.
  54. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> which is something different that I guess indicates a problem with the Accept header in the requests your ua is sending
  55. # [01:52] <MikeSmith> boogyman: yah sounds to me like a bug in th UA
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  57. # [01:53] <boogyman> D'oh User-Fail. I had an Accept header extension loaded.
  58. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> ah
  59. # [01:53] <MikeSmith> why
  60. # [01:54] * yhirano_ is now known as yhirano
  61. # [01:54] <boogyman> The addon will send the configs to any request, it appears w3c is actually parsing them. I was testing an API I've been developing
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  87. # [03:23] <MikeSmith> the WebGL working group actually has a chair?
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  120. # [06:50] <jamesr___> i would expect ever khronos working group has a chair
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  125. # [07:09] <MikeSmith> jamesr___: yeah it's just that they don't have any kind of public information page for the group, so I guess nobody except that people in the group actually know who the chair is
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  205. # [11:04] <annevk> zewt: it's a certificate with three name entries, *.spec.whatwg.org, *.whatwg.org, and whatwg.org
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  225. # [12:23] <JakeA> annevk: https://slightlyoff.github.io/ServiceWorker/spec/service_worker/#installation-algorithm 5.5 resolves a promise, 5.7 triggers an event. Would the event trigger before I add a listener in my promise callback?
  226. # [12:24] <JakeA> Trying to work out how promise resolving works in spec land
  227. # [12:25] <annevk> JakeA: the promise's callbacks are run during a microtask, that's guaranteed to happen before a task
  228. # [12:25] <annevk> JakeA: however, encouraging that kind of flow seems counter to the point of promises
  229. # [12:26] <annevk> JakeA: e.g. if I ask for a promise's value at a later stage, you sort of expect the same set of guarantees, but perhaps I'm wrong about this
  230. # [12:29] * Quits: joelcox (~joelcox@unaffiliated/joelcox) (Quit: joelcox)
  231. # [12:29] <JakeA> annevk: yah, it's more interop detail than usecase. Will make a ticket.
  232. # [12:30] <annevk> JakeA: Domenic and I have been thinking of language that would let the event dispatch as part of the first callback of the promise
  233. # [12:30] <annevk> JakeA: as if you had written promise.then(x => obj.dispatchEvent(...)) or some such
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  235. # [12:31] <annevk> JakeA: in the algorithm
  236. # [12:31] <JakeA> annevk: interesting. Although I don't think that's what we want in this case, since it's observable from other windows
  237. # [12:32] <annevk> JakeA: ah yeah, that text is wrong
  238. # [12:32] <annevk> JakeA: you need to list the event loops on which you want to dispatch the event
  239. # [12:33] <annevk> JakeA: otherwise you queue tasks to the event loop of the service worker on objects that don't exist...
  240. # [12:37] <JakeA> annevk: so it would be "for each service worker client using registration, queue a task to fire a simple event named updatefound on all ServiceWorkerRegistration objects"?
  241. # [12:37] <JakeA> (I'm looking at https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/browsers.html#downloading-or-updating-an-application-cache:event-appcache-updateready as a guide
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  243. # [12:39] <annevk> JakeA: that's not specific enough
  244. # [12:39] <JakeA> annevk: is appcache's specific enough?
  245. # [12:40] <annevk> JakeA: for each ServiceWorkerRegistration object you need to figure out its corresponding event loop
  246. # [12:40] <annevk> JakeA: appcache runs in the same event loop as the document
  247. # [12:40] <annevk> JakeA: so unlikely
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  249. # [12:41] <annevk> (although at some point appcache was also made available from workers, so maybe? hmm)
  250. # [12:42] <JakeA> annevk: but appcache's updateready event happens across multiple documents, so different event loops right? Or do all documents share the same event loops in spec land?
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  252. # [12:42] <JakeA> "same event loop" even
  253. # [12:43] <annevk> JakeA: same-origin documents most likely do as doing anything else is likely to be observable
  254. # [12:44] <annevk> JakeA: even cross-origin documents often have to be same event loop
  255. # [12:44] <annevk> JakeA: however, it's not a given that existing text is actually accurate or vetted unfortunately
  256. # [12:44] <annevk> JakeA: since we're still figuring out much of the architecture ourselves, in order to write specs you have to understand what you're writing down
  257. # [12:45] <annevk> JakeA: and be able to verify it's correct
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  259. # [12:45] <annevk> (I haven't always done that, and typically it comes back to bite me hard)
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  261. # [12:52] <annevk> JakeA: it is somewhat amusing that you are using AppCache as an inspiration for the language in the specification after becoming famous for the "appcache is a douchebag" meme
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  263. # [12:53] <JakeA> annevk: :D doesn't mean the spec language is bad
  264. # [12:53] <JakeA> annevk: lots of edge case we've ran into, we've dug into the spec and found "appcache woz here" scrawled in blood
  265. # [12:54] <JakeA> eg, what to do when <object> can be a navigation or subresource depending on the response
  266. # [12:57] <annevk> also <embed>, so shitty
  267. # [12:57] <JakeA> yeeep
  268. # [12:58] <annevk> I wouldn't mind that if you use service workers they become subresource-only contexts
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  270. # [13:01] <JakeA> annevk: I think we went the other way & declared them all navigations (else SVG would fail, right?)
  271. # [13:02] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  272. # [13:03] <annevk> JakeA: I would have picked dominant usage (plugins) over SVG I think
  273. # [13:04] <annevk> JakeA: SVG can use <iframe> and <img>
  274. # [13:05] <JakeA> annevk: ohh, actually I think we bypass SW for <object> because of plugins, until we get a better idea of how to handle security there
  275. # [13:06] <JakeA> annevk: we should spec that until we have a good way to protect against it. Things like cross-domain.xml are scary, since they're per-plugin.
  276. # [13:08] <annevk> JakeA: and <embed> too?
  277. # [13:09] <annevk> JakeA: they have request contexts so you can branch on that
  278. # [13:09] <slightlyoff_> Yes, embed too
  279. # [13:09] * slightlyoff_ is now known as slightlyoff
  280. # [13:10] <annevk> Did Mozilla sign off on this?
  281. # [13:10] * annevk doesn't remember any discussion
  282. # [13:12] <JakeA> annevk: it was an area of "not supported" we were going to have in Chrome, but I'm thinking we should spec it until we find a way to spec it securely
  283. # [13:12] <JakeA> (not even sure how we do that without having per-plugin instructions and whitelist particular plugins)
  284. # [13:13] <annevk> Well there's an open issue on object/embed too
  285. # [13:13] <JakeA> I'll jump on that now
  286. # [13:13] <JakeA> annevk: Ok so, with the event dispatching thing, I'm thinking a Service Worker Client needs a reference to the client's incumbent settings object. Then, when it comes to dispatching updatefound, we can sort clients by identical responsible event loop, get the registration objects from the clients, dispatch events
  287. # [13:13] <annevk> Service Worker Client -> ServiceWorkerRegistration?
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  289. # [13:14] <JakeA> annevk: client already has an associated registration
  290. # [13:14] <JakeA> https://slightlyoff.github.io/ServiceWorker/spec/service_worker/#service-worker-client-concept
  291. # [13:15] <annevk> Ah yeah, I still think we should include dedicated workers there too
  292. # [13:16] <annevk> JakeA: how about we make service worker client match request's client and make it an extension of the environment settings object instead?
  293. # [13:16] <annevk> JakeA: that way a) you have access to the event loop (stored on that object) and b) we actually get some consistency
  294. # [13:18] <JakeA> annevk: yeah that makes sense, I hadn't realised client had 'forked' between the two specs
  295. # [13:19] <annevk> I don't think there's even a reason to call it "service worker client"
  296. # [13:19] <annevk> We can just define an extension to the "environment settings object"
  297. # [13:19] <JakeA> annevk: so what gets its own "environment settings object"?
  298. # [13:20] <annevk> JakeA: workers, and document/window
  299. # [13:21] <JakeA> annevk: we've had this discussion before, but I can't remember the reasons, why can't we treat dedicated workers as a subresource?
  300. # [13:22] <annevk> JakeA: CSP doesn't treat it as a subresource, from the perspective of Referer it's not a subresource
  301. # [13:22] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, that settles it really. Cool.
  302. # [13:24] <JakeA> although CSS isn't a subresource in terms of Referer either
  303. # [13:25] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, but is for CSP
  304. # [13:25] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, consistency with CSP is good
  305. # [13:25] <annevk> JakeA: CSS is a bit weird I guess; I wonder how HTML Imports handle Referer
  306. # [13:26] <annevk> Although I like how CSS handles Referer, it makes a lot of sense and has less leakage
  307. # [13:27] <JakeA> annevk: I'm sure font foundries would prefer the referrer to be the page
  308. # [13:27] <slightlyoff> CSP can change if the pun is too weak
  309. # [13:29] <annevk> I think handling this at the level of JS globals makes an awful lot of sense, irrespective of CSP
  310. # [13:31] <annevk> Otherwise effectively what you're saying is that a DedicatedWorker cannot initiate its own Fetch instance, it has to negotiate it through a Document/Window
  311. # [13:31] <annevk> That seems odd to me
  312. # [13:32] <annevk> And expensive as they're all different event loops that now have to coordinate
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  319. # [13:52] <slightlyoff> That's always going to be true. Accommodating multi-process browsers demands it
  320. # [13:52] <slightlyoff> We're not going to sync tics for spec convenience
  321. # [13:52] <slightlyoff> (sorry)
  322. # [13:53] <annevk> Yes, I'm saying you're doing the opposite here
  323. # [13:53] <slightlyoff> I see
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  333. # [14:26] <JakeA> annevk: can I get to a windows visibility/focus state from a request client? (client -> document -> hidden/hasFocus)
  334. # [14:27] <annevk> JakeA: if the environment settings object's global object is a Window object you can inspect that object's associated Document
  335. # [14:27] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  336. # [14:28] <JakeA> annevk: I guess "A responsible document" is null for workers?
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  338. # [14:28] <annevk> JakeA: (theoretically such cross-process interactions of properties would require queuing a task of sorts)
  339. # [14:28] <annevk> JakeA: it's not, which is why I adviced the above
  340. # [14:28] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, our ServiceWorkerClient is a snapshot and getting these snapshots is always async
  341. # [14:29] <JakeA> annevk: so, what is the "responsible document" of an "environment settings object" of a worker?
  342. # [14:30] <annevk> JakeA: I have to go for about an hour and a half, after that I'm ready to help with this refactoring
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  344. # [14:30] <annevk> JakeA: it's the first document that created the worker I think; I think we should probably drop that concept and just store the desired state directly on the settings object
  345. # [14:30] <JakeA> annevk: no worries, going through emails, but might start before you get back
  346. # [14:30] <annevk> please do start :-)
  347. # [14:33] <Ms2ger> Hrm, Fx claims mixed content on html.s.w.o
  348. # [14:33] <Ms2ger> Anyone checked what that's about?
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  383. # [15:48] <smaug____> USVString is the new name for ScalarValueString ?
  384. # [15:48] * caitp- is now known as caitp
  385. # [15:49] <OneLove> greetings!
  386. # [15:49] <OneLove> Is there an API for determining CPU clock speed of the host from the browser?
  387. # [15:52] <jgraham> No
  388. # [15:52] <jgraham> And there likely won't be
  389. # [15:52] <jgraham> What's the use case
  390. # [15:52] <jgraham> ?
  391. # [15:53] <OneLove> developing html5 games
  392. # [15:53] <OneLove> and screen size / resolution is not a great gage of what the client is capable of
  393. # [15:54] <jgraham> Nor is clock speed
  394. # [15:54] <OneLove> youre probably right
  395. # [15:55] <jgraham> Processors can have vastly different performance at the same clock, machines can have multiple CPUs with different speeds, users can be running other tasks in the background that use up CPU time, power saving measures can affect things
  396. # [15:55] <jgraham> etc.
  397. # [15:55] <OneLove> its very true
  398. # [15:55] <jgraham> The best solution to this is probably to adaptively adjust the settings to preserve a desired framerate, or something
  399. # [15:55] <OneLove> how would you get a rough estimate of client perf?
  400. # [15:56] <JakeA> I think it would help to know the current frame rate and maximum frame rate
  401. # [15:56] <jgraham> Which isn't too easy
  402. # [15:56] <JakeA> requestAnimationFrame should provide that kind of data
  403. # [15:56] <JakeA> I don't think max frame rate (basically refresh rate) is exposed at the moment
  404. # [15:57] <jgraham> Yeah, that seems reasonable
  405. # [15:57] <jgraham> Working out actual framerate doesn't obviously need any platform changes
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  407. # [15:58] <JakeA> true
  408. # [15:59] <OneLove> yes i should be able to get what i need from requestanimationframe and window.performance
  409. # [15:59] <OneLove> thanks for the input ;)
  410. # [16:00] <JakeA> OneLove: you may be interested in https://github.com/w3c/smoothness
  411. # [16:00] <JakeA> (just a proposal at the moment)
  412. # [16:02] <OneLove> thats a nice name for an api
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  415. # [16:07] <annevk> smaug____: yes
  416. # [16:07] <annevk> Ms2ger: open the console and check?
  417. # [16:09] <Ms2ger> Hrm
  418. # [16:09] <Ms2ger> Now it's no longer mixed content
  419. # [16:09] * Ms2ger is confused
  420. # [16:12] <annevk> Ms2ger: perhaps one of the scripts is conditionally loading something
  421. # [16:15] <gsnedders> It's pretty sad that the University of Glasgow senate feels a need to send out an email pointing out "custom writing sites" still constitute plagerism.
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  426. # [16:24] <JakeA> annevk: ServiceWorkerClient is a snapshot of state, are you happy with Client working the same?
  427. # [16:25] <annevk> JakeA: there's an open issue on this
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  429. # [16:26] <annevk> JakeA: I feel like we should take some steps back, there's a difference between an underlying concept (request's client) and an actual object
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  432. # [16:26] <annevk> JakeA: 1) what SW describes as "service worker client" can be the same as (request's client), an environment settings object
  433. # [16:27] <JakeA> annevk: you mean, as a first pass keep ServiceWorkerClient the API, but use the concept from fetch?
  434. # [16:27] <JakeA> ok
  435. # [16:27] <annevk> JakeA: 2) ServiceWorkerClient as object, building on top of some environment settings object, seems reasonable, however, as I pointed out elsewhere the mismatch with workers means we should probably call this BrowsingContext or some such
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  437. # [16:28] <annevk> JakeA: since "Worker" and "SharedWorker" are objects representing an external environment settings object already, there's no need to introduce ServiceWorkerClient for them I think
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  439. # [16:29] <annevk> JakeA: now whether BrowsingContext contains snapshotted state or has a method that returns a promise that gives you its state, seems like a distinct question
  440. # [16:29] <annevk> JakeA: though if we go with snapshotted state we need to define timing of course
  441. # [16:31] <JakeA> annevk: I thought snapshotting was agreed upon
  442. # [16:31] <annevk> JakeA: there's an open issue where a Googler suggests something else
  443. # [16:32] <JakeA> annevk: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/500 (reading now)
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  445. # [16:39] <annevk> JakeA: see also https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/511 and https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/512
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  456. # [17:26] <Domenic> JakeA: +1 environments = development vs. production. You seem to have edited that out though :P
  457. # [17:26] <JakeA> Domenic: I'M BEING SILENCED (nah, I moved it to https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/512)
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  491. # [18:22] <annevk> JakeA: we could probably also reuse the term Window in SW to mean "external Window"
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  493. # [18:23] <annevk> JakeA: would have to check with Hixie if it's better as BrowsingContext or Window, not sure if they have a 1:1 relationship
  494. # [18:23] <JakeA> annevk: either works for me
  495. # [18:24] <annevk> JakeA: reading the HTML spec Window seems like a safer choice
  496. # [18:24] <JakeA> annevk: the only bit of incompatibility I see so far is with associating clients with SW registrations. They currently sit on service worker clients. Can we add that to the env settings object? Or should that go on the document?
  497. # [18:25] <annevk> JakeA: one browsing context can have a whole sequence of documents/windows due to history and such
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  501. # [18:27] <annevk> JakeA: SWR can come from an environment settings object, yes
  502. # [18:27] * xiinotulp is now known as plutoniix
  503. # [18:27] <JakeA> cool
  504. # [18:27] <annevk> JakeA: you can't put it on document because then workers wouldn't have access to it
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  506. # [18:28] <JakeA> of course, oops
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  508. # [18:29] <Domenic> Hmm the favicons aren't showing up in Chrome or Firefox for either Streams or DOM
  509. # [18:29] <Domenic> is the problem SVG?
  510. # [18:29] <annevk> Domenic: yes
  511. # [18:29] <Domenic> :(
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  514. # [18:29] <annevk> https://annevankesteren.nl/2011/02/browser-spitting
  515. # [18:29] <Domenic> should we switch to png?
  516. # [18:30] * annevk anticipated that question
  517. # [18:30] <Domenic> lol
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  531. # [19:03] <smaug____> which spec defines template element
  532. # [19:03] <smaug____> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/templates/index.html is missing content
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  535. # [19:03] <smaug____> ah, html spec
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  548. # [19:31] <annevk> Hixie: http://noncombatant.org/2014/10/12/brainstorming-security-for-the-internet-of-things/ discusses the issue about CAs and local devices
  549. # [19:31] <annevk> Hixie: looks like public-webappsec@w3.org might also look into it (there's a handful of emails)
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  568. # [19:58] <TALNET> Hi
  569. # [19:59] <TALNET> New to here.
  570. # [19:59] <TALNET> Interesting web technology and community.
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  572. # [20:02] <TabAtkins> ...shame if anything were to HAPPEN to it
  573. # [20:02] * Ms2ger gives TabAtkins some fishes to swim with
  574. # [20:03] <TALNET> :D
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  639. # [22:13] <Sample> Just saw this for the first time and thought of you guys http://xkcd.com/927/
  640. # [22:14] <Sample> I'm sure half of you already have that printed on your wall at the moment =P
  641. # [22:14] <Ms2ger> Printing? What's that? :)
  642. # [22:15] <annevk> I should reference it from https://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/ perhaps
  643. # [22:15] <annevk> Hadn't noticed it called out encodings specifically before
  644. # [22:15] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: isn't that that thing that Opera was created for?
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  675. # [23:22] <Domenic> where's code search but for gecko?
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  678. # [23:23] <Ms2ger> Domenic, https://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/
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  680. # [23:26] <caitp> dxr has a cool ui though
  681. # [23:27] <Domenic> i was going to say, i thought there was a fancier one
  682. # [23:28] <Ms2ger> dxr.mozilla.org?
  683. # [23:28] <Domenic> yepyep
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  685. # [23:35] <Ms2ger> Weird stuff surfaces sometimes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-math/2014Oct/0006.html
  686. # [23:37] <TabAtkins> ...huh
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The end :)