/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-10-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 23 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  24. # [00:51] <Hixie> Jasper: i plan to define it such that the answer is "rAF will be the last callback invoked before the frame is laid out and painted"
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  27. # [00:51] <Hixie> Jasper: whether a particular timeout gets done in the current frame or not can't be controlled, it depends on what else is going on
  28. # [00:51] <Jasper> Hixie, right, OK.
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  30. # [00:52] <Jasper> jgraham, I thought that the main loop defined the concept of a frame / redraw period
  31. # [00:52] <Jasper> Admittedly, my use case is insane, but I figured I'd ask.
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  36. # [00:56] <jgraham> Jasper: No, and setTimeout allows the browser to delay as long as it likes for any reason
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  38. # [01:00] <Hixie> yeah, setTimeout just queues a task, there's no guarantee of when it'll be serviced
  39. # [01:00] <Hixie> right now the event loop is veeeery vague about frames. that'll hopefully improve a little when i get to that bug.
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  43. # [01:05] <Hixie> what's the difference between a prototype and a constructor again? I thought I knew, but then I read the spec for GetSuperConstructor() and it seems to say that they're the same.
  44. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> Hixie: An object's prototype is just another object, which is used for lookup when you ask for a property and it doesn't exist on the object.
  45. # [01:07] <TabAtkins> A constructor is a function.
  46. # [01:08] <TabAtkins> Typically, an object's proto is set to the value of the "prototype" property on the constructor function at the time the object is constructed.
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  48. # [01:12] <Hixie> and foo.prototype is not foo's prototype, right? it's just the prototype that'll be used if you new up an object using new as a constructor?
  49. # [01:12] <Hixie> but __proto__ is the prototype? is there an official way of getting to __proto__?
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  52. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Right, or rather, it's not necessarily. ^_^ __proto__ is the prototype, and that's the official way to get it.
  53. # [01:14] <TabAtkins> There's also getPrototypeOf(), I think.
  54. # [01:14] <Hixie> __proto__ seems to be shunned in the spec
  55. # [01:14] <Hixie> though i guess it is there, at least
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  57. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> Using it de-optimizes your object, so you don't want to use it normally.
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  59. # [01:18] <Hixie> so why doesn't this work:
  60. # [01:18] <Hixie> foo = { bar: 3 }
  61. # [01:18] <Hixie> Object.setPrototypeOf(foo, Object.getPrototypeOf(Object.getPrototypeOf(document.body)));
  62. # [01:18] <Hixie> Object.setPrototypeOf(Object.getPrototypeOf(document.body), foo);
  63. # [01:18] <Hixie> document.head.bar
  64. # [01:18] <Hixie> or maybe i should ask, should that work?
  65. # [01:18] <gsnedders> you probably can't mutate the prototype of host objects
  66. # [01:19] <gsnedders> or whatever they're called now
  67. # [01:19] <gsnedders> whether that's a good idea or not is a separate question :)
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  71. # [01:29] <Hixie> is there a way to test if super() is going to throw because the function isn't defined?
  72. # [01:32] <Hixie> oh wait, super only works inside functions defined in class blocks, right
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  134. # [04:48] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins, can srcset handle switching of both size and resolution (2x, 3x) for a single image?
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  146. # [05:36] <TabAtkins> JosephSilber: Yes, you can use multiple <source srcset> elements, one for each media query.
  147. # [05:37] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins, Is that for picture or img?
  148. # [05:37] <JosephSilber> I'm talking about image srcset. No art direction.
  149. # [05:38] <TabAtkins> If you dont' care about art direction, what did you mean by "switching of size"?
  150. # [05:42] <JonathanNeal> Does http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-array.from define how Array.from should handle primatives?
  151. # [05:43] <JonathanNeal> I am having trouble understanding http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-toobject - what happens a Boolean, for instance?
  152. # [05:44] <TabAtkins> JosephSilber: If you mean that you don't know how large the image will be (because its size is a percentage, or uses other units that might not be resolvable to pixels ahead of time), then you use the w unit rather than x; srcset will handle things for you.
  153. # [05:44] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins, Apple *still* doesn't support width based srcset :(
  154. # [05:44] <JosephSilber> Even in iOS8
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  156. # [05:44] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: It returns a Boolean object. That's different from a boolean value, note.
  157. # [05:44] <TabAtkins> JosephSilber: Yeah, they haven't finished things out yet. :/
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  159. # [05:45] <JosephSilber> Does anyone remember when the iPhone launched, and it had the most advanced mobile browser?
  160. # [05:45] <JosephSilber> What a joke that is now.
  161. # [05:45] <JosephSilber> They don't even do validation :/
  162. # [05:45] <JosephSilber> How long has that been around for...?
  163. # [05:45] <JonathanNeal> I see, so it’s like `Object(true)`. No keys, but somehow still true.
  164. # [05:46] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Boolean(false) is truthy. ^_^
  165. # [05:46] <TabAtkins> (All objects are truthy.)
  166. # [05:46] <JonathanNeal> Fun!
  167. # [05:46] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it's great.
  168. # [05:49] <JosephSilber> Why doesn't srcset support infinite sizes, with a server-side script rendering whatever size the client needs?
  169. # [05:50] <TabAtkins> JosephSilber: Client Hints is an effort to work on that.
  170. # [05:50] <TabAtkins> Which will work nicely with srcset.
  171. # [05:51] <JosephSilber> TabAtkins, I'm saying that I want the client to decide, not the server.
  172. # [05:51] <JosephSilber> Let the client tell the server what size it wants.
  173. # [05:51] <TabAtkins> The server can do whatever it wants. All we can do is tell it what the resolution/etc is, which is what Client Hints does.
  174. # [05:52] <JosephSilber> The server shouldn't care about dpr, network speed or whatever else
  175. # [05:52] <JosephSilber> srcset is built so that the browser can take into account everything it know to and pick the correct image.
  176. # [05:52] <JosephSilber> Why not let it pick from an infinite pool?
  177. # [05:53] <TabAtkins> That's literally what I'm saying.
  178. # [05:53] <JosephSilber> Client Hints would have the server do a reimplementation of srcset's algorithms, of which many factors can't even be sent to the server.
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  180. # [05:54] <JosephSilber> What I'm saying is: "Hello, I'm a server. I have an image that is 3000px x 4000px. Tell me which size you want."
  181. # [05:54] <TabAtkins> That's what you end up with, yes.
  182. # [05:55] <JosephSilber> "I don't care about your dpr. I don't care about your network speed. I don't care about your viewport size. I don't care about your element size. Just give me dimensions."
  183. # [05:55] <JosephSilber> Then I misread this: https://github.com/igrigorik/http-client-hints
  184. # [05:55] <JosephSilber> I don't see anything in there that would support this.
  185. # [05:58] <TabAtkins> client hints can certainly vary what it gives in the rw and dpr values to match exactly what it wants.
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  188. # [06:03] <JonathanNeal> Am I to assume that Array.from is enumerable or not enumerable when it does not specify?
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  190. # [06:06] <TabAtkins> The method? built-ins generally aren't enumerable.
  191. # [06:06] <TabAtkins> If it doesnt' actaully specify, it's a spec bug, but I'll bet it does, just in a confusing and indirect way.
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  193. # [06:11] <caitp-> test262 seems to assert certain properties for functions of builtins that don't seem to be specified anywhere
  194. # [06:11] <caitp-> well, maybe it does say "function properties of builtin types don't have prototypes" somewhere, but I haven't found it :c
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  197. # [06:17] <JonathanNeal> Last question. When Array.from converts length to a number, and the length is Infinity, should it throw an error? I don’t see something to throw that. Instead, it looks like it passes it along before it gets capped by min(length, 253-1).
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  199. # [06:18] <JonathanNeal> e.g. If number is +0, −0, +∞, or −∞, return number … Return min(len, 253-1)
  200. # [06:18] <JonathanNeal> Sorry for the formatting change on 2(little 53).
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  206. # [06:53] <Domenic> caitp-: JonathanNeal: the spec says things about built-in functions having no prototype, and built-in methods being nonenumerable
  207. # [06:54] <Domenic> JonathanNeal: doesn't Array.from use ToLength? I thought that capped Infinity.
  208. # [06:54] <caitp-> it does
  209. # [06:55] <JonathanNeal> When does ToLength cap Infinity?
  210. # [06:55] <caitp-> it caps at 2^53-1 iirc
  211. # [06:56] <Domenic> step 5, Return min(len, 253-1).
  212. # [06:56] <Domenic> min(Infinity, 2^53 - 1) is 2^53 - 1
  213. # [06:56] <JonathanNeal> Yea, so it won’t throw.
  214. # [06:56] <Domenic> so yeah it shouldn't throw
  215. # [06:56] <JonathanNeal> It will cap, am I understanding that right?
  216. # [06:56] <Domenic> indeed
  217. # [06:56] <caitp-> it won't go higher
  218. # [06:57] <JonathanNeal> There’s really no way to pass an invalid length, then.
  219. # [06:57] <caitp-> yeah isn't it great?
  220. # [06:58] <Domenic> not true
  221. # [06:58] <Domenic> you could pass { valueOf() { throw new Error("boo!"); } }
  222. # [06:58] <caitp-> not sure that's a compelling useful thing to do though =)
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  224. # [06:59] <Domenic> built-in defaults defined in https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-ecmascript-standard-built-in-objects
  225. # [06:59] <Domenic> (hmm that "ECMAScript" prefix seems redundant on the section heading)
  226. # [06:59] <JonathanNeal> Domenic: okay, in 99% of the cases other than explicitly telling the thing to throw, it will not.
  227. # [07:00] <Domenic> I mean, yes, it generally avoids throwing.
  228. # [07:00] <Domenic> Just like +x generally avoids throwing
  229. # [07:00] <Domenic> or parseInt
  230. # [07:04] <JonathanNeal> Thanks, Domenic.
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  232. # [07:05] <JonathanNeal> “generally” made me laugh out loud.
  233. # [07:09] <caitp-> there are cases where @@toStringTag will cause things to throw, and i worry how that will affect dev tools :( but I guess there's nothing you can do about it
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  240. # [07:32] <JonathanNeal> Ugh, index in array fails when array[index] = undefined in IE6-8.
  241. # [07:35] <caitp-> fails?
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  244. # [07:39] <JonathanNeal> index in array returns false
  245. # [07:39] <JonathanNeal> when that index has a value of undefined
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  247. # [07:43] <JonathanNeal> Likewise, for (index in array) will skip indexes/keys with a value of undefined.
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  249. # [07:44] <JonathanNeal> In short, 0 in [undefined] is false
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  251. # [07:48] <JonathanNeal> Reading all about the fun here https://github.com/es-shims/es5-shim/issues/190
  252. # [07:50] <caitp-> that's interesting
  253. # [07:57] <JonathanNeal> Yea, that’s a pretty major flaw.
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  255. # [08:04] <caitp-> well it won't be long before people stop caring about ie8
  256. # [08:04] <caitp-> one imagines
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  259. # [08:07] <JonathanNeal> Yes, huzzah, the end times are near, ie8, they always are.
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  315. # [09:13] <annevk_> Domenic: arv: your call: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26178
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  389. # [12:24] <smaug____> oh, lowercase fetch
  390. # [12:24] <smaug____> annevk: what was the reason to go with fetch() and not with some less-likely-to-be-used-in-web-pages name?
  391. # [12:25] <annevk> smaug____: I don't recall
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  393. # [12:31] <smaug____> it is super annoying that we need to think about existing pages when exposing new APIs
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  395. # [12:37] <annevk> try to stay positive :-)
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  429. # [13:49] <annevk> JakeA_: https://slightlyoff.github.io/ServiceWorker/spec/service_worker/#register-algorithm are "Get Registration" and "Get Newest Worker" supposed to run synchronously?
  430. # [13:50] <annevk> JakeA_: is it clear that if 7.2.2.2 returns 7.4/5 are no longer run?
  431. # [13:53] <JakeA_> annevk: hmm, step 7 onwards should be async
  432. # [13:54] <annevk> JakeA_: filed an issue
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  434. # [13:54] <annevk> That Google managed to implement something speaks volumes of how closely the specification has been read...
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  436. # [13:55] <JakeA> annevk: yeah, 7.2.2.3 should be "abort these steps"
  437. # [13:55] <JakeA> annevk: I'm pretty sure those steps used to be async, I think they've changed
  438. # [13:56] <annevk> JakeA: if you make t hem asynchronous, be sure to return the promise on time...
  439. # [13:56] <annevk> JakeA: and be sure to check the registration stuff in a non-racy way
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  563. # [17:57] <JakeA> annevk: right, drag me kicking and screaming into understanding this url issue. I need the URL for assigning a serviceworker registration on navigation. I also need a snapshot of it when we provide request.client, or the BrowsingContent instances from clients.getAll(). I don't understand why the active document changing will break things, or why a url entry
  564. # [17:57] <JakeA> on the environment settings concept wouldn't have exactly the same issues
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  567. # [17:59] <annevk> The relationship between Window objects and documents, ignoring corner cases, is 1:1
  568. # [17:59] <annevk> The relationship between browsing contexts and documents, is 1:N
  569. # [18:00] <annevk> The current document in a browsing context is the active document
  570. # [18:00] <annevk> What a service worker has a relationship with is a Window object/document
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  572. # [18:01] <annevk> So what we want to return is a document's url, and not a document's browsing context's active document's url
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  576. # [18:02] <annevk> JakeA: ah, and an environment settings object is 1:1:1 with a Window object and document
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  579. # [18:04] <annevk> JakeA: and you can't use an environment settings object's responsible document since it would not return a worker's url
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  582. # [18:10] <JakeA> annevk: if an environment settings object is 1:1:1 with a Window & document, what's the problem with getting a url from a client's global's location? (considering a request client is an environment settings object)
  583. # [18:10] <smaug____> "ignoring corner cases"
  584. # [18:10] <JakeA> Ahh ok
  585. # [18:10] <smaug____> document.write isn't that faraway in a corner
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  587. # [18:11] <JakeA> The url doesn't change in that case though, does it?
  588. # [18:11] <smaug____> document doesn't change with document.write, but Window changes
  589. # [18:12] <annevk> JakeA: a Location object observes document's browsing context's active document's url for various silly legacy reasons that I don't know
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  591. # [18:12] <smaug____> (the other corner case is reusing Window object for another Document after the initial about:blank)
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  594. # [18:15] <JakeA> smaug____: I thought for a minute you were suggesting the global got reused too. What's the practical impact of window reuse between about:blank and next url?
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  596. # [18:16] <annevk> JakeA: that your reference to the object is still valid
  597. # [18:17] <smaug____> JakeA: you do window.open() and can set event listener to the window object even before the document has been loaded
  598. # [18:17] <annevk> JakeA: it means you can synchronously access an <iframe>'s Window from script while it's navigating to the page you actually requested
  599. # [18:17] <JakeA> I seeeeeee
  600. # [18:17] <JakeA> The web's complicated isn't it?
  601. # [18:17] <annevk> about:blank is really complicated
  602. # [18:18] <annevk> the web is okay in comparison :p
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  610. # [18:30] <JakeA> annevk: So if the env settings obj concept gets a "document url", which document would that be defined as?
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  612. # [18:31] <annevk> JakeA: the URL that caused it to be created, I would imagine
  613. # [18:33] <JakeA> annevk: that means request.client.url wouldn't reflect changes made by pushState… *ponders on if that's a good or bad thing*
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  616. # [18:35] <annevk> JakeA: perhaps for document-based environments there should be currentURL as well?
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  618. # [18:37] <annevk> JakeA: or perhaps for document-based environments it should return the document's url
  619. # [18:37] <annevk> JakeA: either way, definitely not the active document
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  623. # [18:44] <JakeA> annevk: if I got a push message, I wouldn't show a notification if a relevant tab was focused & visible. For this case, pushState matters, I want the "location bar" url. For clients.takeControl(), if we go by post-pushState url, you get a weird edge-case where documents that were originally loaded out-of-scope could become controlled, so creationURL feels
  624. # [18:44] <JakeA> less hacky. Yeah, we need both, and should expose both.
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  633. # [19:05] <JakeA> annevk: does this make sense https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27146 ?
  634. # [19:06] <annevk> JakeA: sounds good
  635. # [19:06] <annevk> JakeA: I think Mike West also wants these hooks
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  637. # [19:07] <JakeA> annevk: cheers & thanks for persevering. If I continue to not get it, feel free to declare me not fit for spec writing :D
  638. # [19:08] <Ms2ger> JakeA, eh, we'll take anybody :)
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  640. # [19:11] <JakeA> "Web Better Than Native Spec 1.0" Algorithms: 1. Be better than native. 2. Abort these steps.
  641. # [19:11] <jgraham> JakeA: You're right, that's a terrible spec
  642. # [19:11] <jgraham> Step 2 should be "Goto 1"
  643. # [19:12] <JakeA> Probably should be… ahh beat me to it
  644. # [19:12] <JakeA> Or 2. Be even more better
  645. # [19:13] <jgraham> Well, glad we solved that one
  646. # [19:13] <jgraham> Someone make a press release
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  663. # [19:41] <Domenic> JakeA: not sure how you managed to pull this off https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/468#issuecomment-60276779 but kudos
  664. # [19:41] <JakeA> Domenic: there's nothing I won't do to save https://jakearchibald.github.io/trained-to-thrill/
  665. # [19:41] <JakeA> actually I'll need to change the script location
  666. # [19:42] <Domenic> hahahaha
  667. # [19:42] <JakeA> but that's easy vs getting Github to change headers
  668. # [19:42] <Domenic> yes exactly
  669. # [19:42] <Domenic> i was/am really worried about any solution that prevents creating SW sites on GitHub pages
  670. # [19:43] <JakeA> Yeah, GitHub pages were the sweetener to the https restriction
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  672. # [19:47] <JakeA> annevk: so, what's the protocol now, shall I edit the serviceworker spec assuming those url things are on the env settings object? Are there annotation patterns for this stuff?
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  681. # [20:04] <annevk> JakeA: seems reasonable
  682. # [20:05] <annevk> JakeA: annotate as monkey patch
  683. # [20:06] <JakeA> Ta
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  702. # [20:35] <annevk> So glad Hixie pioneered this space several years ago
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  709. # [20:48] <JonathanNeal> Domenic: thanks again for the help with Array.from.
  710. # [20:50] <caitp> array.from is pretty neat
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  712. # [20:53] <Domenic> I am not a fan
  713. # [20:54] <Domenic> [...arrayLike] wins for me
  714. # [20:54] <caitp> well it would be more fun to implement
  715. # [20:55] <caitp> but there are things I like about not turning the language into some more ubiquitous version of python
  716. # [20:55] <caitp> python is hard to read
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  723. # [21:05] <JonathanNeal> caitp: and we learned about more issues with IE8. Yay for no distinguishment between dense and sparse arrays.
  724. # [21:06] <caitp> you gotta figure sparse arrays are probably not very common for most use cases though
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  726. # [21:08] <caitp> its one of the reasons why people often use for loops instead of forEach --- because forEach will care about sparse-ness and skip properties that aren't in the collection, which is significantly more expensive than just invoking the callback with an undefined value
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  730. # [21:11] <JonathanNeal> What was the reason it was called .forEach instead of .each?
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  734. # [21:13] <Hixie> annevk: which space was i pioneering? :-)
  735. # [21:13] <annevk> Hixie: minting new global objects and defining their infrastructure
  736. # [21:14] <Hixie> oh man
  737. # [21:14] <Hixie> i wouldn't say pioneering
  738. # [21:14] <Hixie> more like i fell into a sewer
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  740. # [21:18] <annevk> Now I want to play Mario
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  754. # [22:05] <Domenic> annevk: given https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/445#issuecomment-60297625 I at least would take up slightlyoff on the idea of reopening the event listeners issue :). that's the worst part to me.
  755. # [22:06] <Domenic> i think i would prefer fetch not being a special snowflake---the argument there doesn't hold IMO, since having a fetch hook doesn't mean anything about your offline capabilities---but that battle doesn't seem worth fighting
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  757. # [22:08] <Hixie> nooo, zcorpan broke the build
  758. # [22:08] <Domenic> there's a guarantee that setTimeout(f, x) and setTimeout(g, x) runs f then g in any order, right? Hixie?
  759. # [22:08] <Domenic> er
  760. # [22:08] <Hixie> zcorpan: <var>image request</span>
  761. # [22:08] <Domenic> in that order
  762. # [22:08] <Hixie> Domenic: i believe so, but i'd have to check the spec to be sure
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  764. # [22:09] <Domenic> another benefit of html.spec.whatwg.org subdomain---googling "setTimeout site:html.spec.whatwg.org"
  765. # [22:09] <Domenic> ah yep "Wait until any invocations of this algorithm that had the same method context, that started before this one, and whose timeout is equal to or less than this one's, have completed."
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The end :)