/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-10-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 24 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  16. # [00:26] <annevk> Domenic: losing permissions for other things if you decide to enlarge the scope of your app seems pretty bad too
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  22. # [00:34] <annevk> Hixie: tweets are still not working?
  23. # [00:35] <annevk> oh well, nn
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  44. # [01:16] <Domenic> wow so apparently you used to be able to put default attributes in your DTD and when you did createElement("tagname") with that it would actually create an element with .attributes pre-populated???
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  46. # [01:21] <Domenic> and .specified used to be a thing??
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  48. # [01:21] <Domenic> wow the DOM was effed up
  49. # [01:21] <Domenic> (I'm looking through old dom level 1 tests which jsdom still has in its corpus... we're trying to kill the level1/level2/level3 structure and it's causing a bunch of level1 tests to fail.)
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  57. # [01:42] <Hixie> Domenic: "be able to" is maybe the wrong way to put it
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  122. # [04:18] <MikeSmith> Hixie: not that it matters much but I think you flagged https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27149 as a duplicate of the wrong bug
  123. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> ah I see why
  124. # [04:19] <MikeSmith> I'll fix it
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  336. # [09:41] <annevk> Domenic: it seems I had not read the actual proposal, that does seem like an amazing outcome
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  339. # [09:41] <annevk> Domenic: my bad
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  342. # [09:47] <JakeA> annevk: if I make a forced-preflight fetch, but there's no non-basic method or headers, I don't get a preflight?
  343. # [09:48] <annevk> JakeA: you can't make a forced-preflight fetch
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  345. # [09:50] <JakeA> annevk: fair
  346. # [09:51] <annevk> forced preflight only exists for some event listener thing from XMLHttpRequest
  347. # [09:51] <annevk> perhaps we also require it if you pass an actual stream to new Request
  348. # [09:51] <annevk> as that would effectively be the same thing
  349. # [09:51] <JakeA> (someone suggested it as a way to do SW security, not entertaining the idea but wanted to explain fully)
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  351. # [09:52] <annevk> although... request needs to make a copy of that data...
  352. # [09:53] <annevk> JakeA: we might want to investigate at some point if we want a fail-on-redirect option or no-clone option for a request's stream
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  354. # [09:53] <annevk> JakeA: due to redirects and authentication you might end up submitting the request body several times, which doesn't seem very optimal for perf if you're uploading 50GiB of 4K video or some such
  355. # [09:54] <annevk> JakeA: I'm not sure what SW security means
  356. # [09:54] <annevk> JakeA: note that from a specification layer you can make a forced-preflight fetch
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  360. # [10:12] <JakeA> annevk: fail-on-redirect sounds like a good solution there. Or no-buffer, which would prevent cloning and implicit buffering from redirects
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  362. # [10:13] <JakeA> annevk: By SW security I mean the whole path vs header debate
  363. # [10:13] <annevk> Are we still tracking the addition of streams in an issue somewhere? We should mention this there
  364. # [10:13] <annevk> JakeA: ah okay, then a forced-preflight would not work, since this is same-origin
  365. # [10:14] <annevk> JakeA: unless you say the request origin is null, but that would be a super weird way to get hold of a SW
  366. # [10:15] <JakeA> annevk: yeah http://jakearchibald.com/2014/launching-sw-without-breaking-the-web/#comment-1651245375
  367. # [10:16] <annevk> FWIW, I really like the tie it to the origin idea
  368. # [10:16] <annevk> I have liked that since the start, I'm not sure why I didn't push for it. I thought it wasn't in the cards
  369. # [10:17] <JakeA> Tie it to the origin?
  370. # [10:18] <annevk> Use origin instead of scopes
  371. # [10:18] <JakeA> annevk: does that mean I can only have one SW per origin?
  372. # [10:19] <JakeA> I guess it must
  373. # [10:20] <JakeA> Scoping has been really useful for demos on https://jakearchibald.github.io/isserviceworkerready/ and seperate sites like https://jakearchibald.github.io/trained-to-thrill/
  374. # [10:22] <annevk> Yeah, but let actual scoping solve that problem
  375. # [10:22] <annevk> I.e. suborigins
  376. # [10:25] <annevk> It simplifies service workers a lot and puts the complexity of scoping on suborigins, which can provide actual security benefits
  377. # [10:26] <JakeA> Github pages (and googledrive, and localhost) were the sweetener to the https requirement. I don't like things which throw those out (hence my fighting over the path stuff)
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  379. # [10:28] <annevk> They are not thrown out, you can just experiment with a single service worker on them
  380. # [10:29] <annevk> (until suborigins)
  381. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> has some agreement emerged yet on the path thing
  382. # [10:30] <annevk> https://adactio.com/journal/7706 did someone tell adactio about service workers? Since you'll end up duplicating quite a bit of your server code
  383. # [10:30] <annevk> MikeSmith: depends more on https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/445 at this point; Mozilla is not interested in shipping the current API as is
  384. # [10:31] * MikeSmith looks
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  386. # [10:35] <annevk> http://alistafart.com/
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  389. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> "worth making a breaking change for"
  390. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> doesn't seem like anything's strictly a breaking change at this point
  391. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> yet
  392. # [10:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: hence depends, but I'm pretty sure that unless we come to some agreement Firefox will break
  393. # [10:38] <annevk> MikeSmith: we said as much on blink-dev
  394. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> yeah I read that blink-dev thread too
  395. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> including https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msg/blink-dev/QfxPGw0kJW8/mpvlkZR-AxwJ from Eric Seidel
  396. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> "The risk is high that we'll end up needing to support a spec-incompatible implementation."
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  399. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> anyway, I can see it's some exceptionally difficult problems to sort out
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  402. # [10:43] <annevk> It's not easy to deploy complex new technology quickly
  403. # [10:44] <annevk> And I doubt anyone would label this as quick
  404. # [10:44] <annevk> E.g. when I said 18 months ago or so this would take at least a year I was laughed at
  405. # [10:45] <boogyman> it will take another 6-10 yrs to become mainstream too.
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  407. # [10:55] <JakeA> annevk: If scope is always the whole origin, github is no longer a viable place to host independant serviceworker projects
  408. # [10:55] <JakeA> localhost becomes awkward
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  412. # [11:05] <JakeA> annevk: adactio's seem me speak about ServiceWorker at least twice
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  415. # [11:07] <JakeA> m.lanyrd.com works offline but also with server rendering. It follows a fairly simple model of urls with data objects & templates. The templating system is mustache so works in obj-C for the ios app, java for android, js for clientside, python for service side
  416. # [11:07] <JakeA> of course, each mustache implementation had its own quirks
  417. # [11:07] <JakeA> so it was a bit of a ballache
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  419. # [11:09] <JakeA> If I were developing twitter.com in 5 years, I'd probably make the logged-in timeline view entirely client-side. You only get there 2nd visit, so ServiceWorker can give you better performance than server-rendering
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  421. # [11:09] <JakeA> For individual tweets, server rendering may still have a benefit for first load
  422. # [11:09] <JakeA> Same for the logged-out root
  423. # [11:10] <JakeA> Progressive enhancement in terms of connectivity is more valuable than PE in terms of JavaScript
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  435. # [11:46] <JakeA> sicking: thanks for the detailed post on the generality thing
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  456. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> JakeA: fwiw I've read at lot of the SW issue discussions and I think you're doing a stellar job of representing the web-developer concerns/priorities and of trying to find solutions that'll work. Getting this stuff right is obviously pretty important.
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  491. # [12:05] <JakeA> MikeSmith: oh thanks! I guess I haven't been devrel long enough to forget what it's like to be a developer. Give it 6 months.
  492. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> heh
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  508. # [12:31] <annevk> JakeA: yeah, the end game is more about perf
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  510. # [12:31] <annevk> JakeA: I can see how it's a bit disconcerting though that the client side is no longer HTML and some JavaScript sprinkled on top
  511. # [12:33] <JakeA> annevk: I do think that one of the benefits of SW is "ajaxing" a page change is no longer a huge performance benefit
  512. # [12:33] <JakeA> especially if we get some way to transition between navigations
  513. # [12:34] <JakeA> because "ajax" navigations are a pain in the hole to get right
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  515. # [12:36] <annevk> I just realized there's some issues now we figured out that dedicated workers are not clients
  516. # [12:37] <annevk> Fetch uses client for other things, such as CSP and Referer
  517. # [12:37] <annevk> Referer we could probably solve, but not CSP
  518. # [12:37] <annevk> Ugh :-(
  519. # [12:38] <JakeA> Is it easier to find a way to postMessage into dedicated workers from outside the document?
  520. # [12:38] <annevk> I don't know
  521. # [12:39] <annevk> The problem is that if a dedicated worker does a Fetch, SW wants to see the environment settings object from a document, whereas Fetch also needs the environment settings object from the dedicated worker
  522. # [12:43] <JakeA> If ServiceWorker can postMessage to a document's dedicated worker, then I'm happy for SW to see the dedicated worker as the request client (or some kind of proxy to it)
  523. # [12:45] <annevk> JakeA: I will email the relevant people
  524. # [12:45] <annevk> At least, if I can write out a decent enough problem statement
  525. # [12:46] <JakeA> annevk: we could even make postMessage to those fail, but I'm nervous of .client & getAll() getting wildly different APIs depending on client type
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  529. # [12:48] <annevk> JakeA: either we should just expose them as a document (but with a different Referer and CSP policy...) or we should expose them as a worker without a channel and perhaps a pointer to the associated document?
  530. # [12:48] <annevk> JakeA: all of these require some amount of refactoring
  531. # [12:49] <annevk> JakeA: so I'll write up the known facts so everyone can think about them
  532. # [12:53] <MikeSmith> annevk: data:text/html;charset=utf-8,<!DOCTYPE%20html>%0A<style>%0A%20body%2C%20html%20%7B%20ma…<span>Qual%20Match%2037<%2Fspan>%20<span>Friday%2014%3A21<%2Fspan>%0A<%2Fdiv> is not a valid URL per spec, right? Because "<" and ">" are not URL code points.
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  544. # [13:17] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah
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  546. # [13:18] <annevk> MikeSmith: I only changed a few things relative to RFC 3987 (likely mistakes), but have not changed conformance relative to RFC 3986 I think
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  548. # [13:18] <annevk> MikeSmith: we could at some point, though we should probably be careful
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  553. # [13:24] <MikeSmith> annevk: Ok, thanks
  554. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> I guess I need to file a bug against the source of the HTML spec, since Hixie's using that URL on the source
  555. # [13:27] <MikeSmith> also, data URL kitchen generates URLs with raw "<" and ">"
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  558. # [13:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, I know the current set of restrictions is somewhat annoying
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  560. # [13:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: we could have a distinct conformance class for URLs in HTML attribute values
  561. # [13:34] <annevk> MikeSmith: but I don't really want to get into that before we actually have conforming URL parsers
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  569. # [13:40] <MikeSmith> annevk: yup
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  578. # [14:00] <rubys> For discussion purposes: http://intertwingly.net/projects/pegurl/url.html
  579. # [14:02] <annevk> rubys: I thought the productions were for non-normative purposes?
  580. # [14:03] <rubys> When we last talked, I hadn't decided. I'm now proposing that they be normative.
  581. # [14:03] <annevk> rubys: I'm not a fan
  582. # [14:04] <annevk> This also heavily regresses my IDNA work
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  585. # [14:07] <annevk> rubys: also, username/password together is userinfo; userinfo + host + port is authority
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  587. # [14:07] <annevk> rubys: at least if you follow the original RFCs
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  591. # [14:08] <rubys> that can be fixed
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  596. # [14:13] <annevk> Alright, first, sorry for being being negative. Thanks for the work. Second, I'm willing to consider this after this evolved a bit to address the obvious mistakes.
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  598. # [14:15] <rubys> Please do enumerate the mistakes. I can iterate quickly.
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  600. # [14:16] <annevk> rubys: ipv6 needs to be inline
  601. # [14:16] <annevk> rubys: IDNA as mentioned
  602. # [14:16] <annevk> rubys: URL concat needs to be defined
  603. # [14:16] <annevk> rubys: it needs to be clearer about normative requirements
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  606. # [14:17] <annevk> rubys: it would help if there was a distinction between properties and variables
  607. # [14:18] <annevk> rubys: e.g. "scheme is set to file" is ambiguous
  608. # [14:18] <annevk> rubys: also, apart from formatting you probably want "Set scheme to file", unless it somehow magically happens
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  611. # [14:19] <annevk> rubys: "In the case of a relative-url, the value object to be returned is initialized to the value returned by relative-url, and then modified as follows:" does not make much sense without a description of base URLs
  612. # [14:20] <annevk> rubys: username and password also have their stuff percent-encoded
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  614. # [14:22] <annevk> rubys: hopefully this helps
  615. # [14:23] <rubys> it does; and this might be easier on a mailing list, but first: this was not meant to be complete, but as a catalist for exactly this type of discussion.
  616. # [14:23] <rubys> I only have questions on 3 of your first 4 points.
  617. # [14:23] <rubys> 1) why does ipv6 need to be inline?
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  619. # [14:24] <rubys> 2) can you expand on your IDNA comment? What tests would this fail?
  620. # [14:24] <rubys> 3) what in my mocked up spec should be non-normative?
  621. # [14:24] <annevk> rubys: the parser should be self-contained
  622. # [14:25] <annevk> rubys: I don't really want to elaborate on IDNA, IDNA is much harder than Punycode, the references in URL should make that clear enough
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  624. # [14:26] <annevk> rubys: e.g. you have "Replace all Fullwidth unicode characters (in the range of U+FF01 to U+FF5E with their non-fullwidth equivalents." but normalization is much more complicated
  625. # [14:26] <annevk> rubys: you can't write a spec for URLs based on just 250 tests
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  629. # [14:27] <rubys> I agree that the parser should be self-contained. I believe it is.
  630. # [14:27] <rubys> And I agree that this spec needs to be reconciled with, and defer to, the Encoding Living Standard. (and it even says so).
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  633. # [14:30] <annevk> IDNA != Encoding Standard
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  635. # [14:30] <annevk> I don't see how IPv6 as currently defined is self-contained
  636. # [14:31] <annevk> As for 3) you lack requirements in the form of "must"
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  639. # [14:35] <annevk> rubys: query lacks encoding override stuff
  640. # [14:36] <rubys> one thing that would be helpful is more tests.
  641. # [14:37] <JakeA> annevk: Jonas' Alt 2 proposal (https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/445#issuecomment-60362736) does that work for you? Perhaps even allowing scope to be set to null or an empty sequence to opt out of fetch. I could pursue that with Alex and our implementors.
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  649. # [14:53] <MikeSmith> rubys: the lack of defined parse errors in this draft of your proposed approach make its hard for me to evaluate for my use case (URL conformance checking)
  650. # [14:53] <rubys> MikeSmith: ack.
  651. # [14:54] <rubys> Just curious, any reason why a URL conformance checker couldn't be in JavaScript?
  652. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> it could be sure
  653. # [14:55] <MikeSmith> rubys: but for my purposes I also need something that works for the command line, for one thing
  654. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> outside of a browser
  655. # [14:56] <rubys> node.js?
  656. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> for http://validator.github.io/validator/
  657. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> vnu.jar and the other apps that integrate with that
  658. # [14:57] <MikeSmith> e.g., https://github.com/cvrebert/lmvtfy/ and https://github.com/jzaefferer/grunt-html
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  661. # [14:59] <MikeSmith> and also really, a checker that integrates into the vnu backend in the same way as other checkers (as a SAX ContentHandler, basically)
  662. # [14:59] <rubys> MikeSmith: so a Java implementation would be preferred?
  663. # [15:04] <annevk> JakeA: haven't had time to review yet
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  665. # [15:05] <JakeA> annevk: no worries. I need to get back on talk writing now & the weekend, but let me know & I'll help how I can
  666. # [15:08] <MikeSmith> rubys: yeah, for my purposes a Java implementation would be preferred. Though it's possible to make a Java implementation from a JS implementation, using Rhino. I'm doing that already (in a very limited way) in the vnu code, with TabAtkins' JS CSS tokenizer.
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  668. # [15:09] <rubys> Given that I'm making my JS implementation from a grammar and a Ruby implementation, generating a Java implementation too wouldn't be difficult.
  669. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> rubys: to be clear, the code for the URL (error-reporting) parser itself doesn't have to be a ContentHandler. I can wrap a ContentHandler for vnu around pretty much anything
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  671. # [15:10] <rubys> Java, at least, has sane classes. JavaScript has a bunch of building blocks that can be used to build class like structures.
  672. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> yeah
  673. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> rubys: basically the only interface I need exposed is something I can use to create a URL object, and to get back any messages reported from the code that creates that object
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  675. # [15:12] <rubys> MikeSmith: doable
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  679. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> rubys: cool
  680. # [15:15] <MikeSmith> rubys: if you want to peruse the existing vnu code which handles this, see https://github.com/validator/validator/blob/master/syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/src/org/whattf/datatype/IriRef.java#L126
  681. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> and https://github.com/validator/validator/blob/master/syntax/relaxng/datatype/java/src/org/whattf/datatype/IriRef.java#L173
  682. # [15:16] <annevk> rubys: I think the problem MikeSmith initially raised is that you dropped the "parse error" bits from the original specification
  683. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> this is using Sebastian Mola's galimatias
  684. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> rubys: yeah, what annevk said
  685. # [15:16] <annevk> rubys: making it impossible to tell whether e.g. "<" occurring at some point is at fault or not
  686. # [15:17] <annevk> rubys: it's important to preserve that
  687. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> with the "parse error" bit you can't create an error-reporting parser
  688. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> *without
  689. # [15:17] <rubys> annevk, MikeSmith: I even said so, right at the top. This is totally in the spirit of "release early and often". I know I can do parse errors, so I focused on what I didn't know.
  690. # [15:17] <MikeSmith> sure, makes sense
  691. # [15:18] <rubys> ... and in the process, I found even more that I didn't know.
  692. # [15:18] <rubys> meanwhile, I'm going to add more notes to the doc as to things that have yet to be done based on this input.
  693. # [15:19] <MikeSmith> rubys: incidentially looking back at that vnu code, I see I'm just catching the GalimatiasParseException that galimatias throws for parse errors, and essentially just passing that on to the vnu error-handling/reporting code
  694. # [15:19] <boogy> rubys: prototype inheritance is drastically different from classical inheritance.
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  696. # [15:20] <rubys> boogy: I was on TC39 for many years; nearly became the editor of that spec.
  697. # [15:20] <MikeSmith> rubys: also incidentally if you want some early implementor feedback on your proposed approach, Sebastian Mola would be a good one to ask
  698. # [15:20] <MikeSmith> rubys: https://github.com/smola/galimatias and https://github.com/smola
  699. # [15:22] <rubys> one of the first things I can do is add smola's implementation to http://intertwingly.net/stories/2014/10/16/urltest-results/
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  711. # [15:42] <rubys> http://intertwingly.net/projects/pegurl/url.html#todos
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  725. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> rubys: ah yeah that would be great
  726. # [16:07] <MikeSmith> rubys: I believe galimatias conforms to the spec on all the existing tests that are in the wpt repo
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  742. # [16:37] <annevk> JakeA: can't things also break if someone has caches = ... or some such?
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  744. # [16:37] <annevk> JakeA: assigning to something that returns a collection
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  747. # [16:38] <JakeA> annevk: if someone did caches = "blah" wouldn't window.caches simply be "blah"?
  748. # [16:38] <annevk> JakeA: e.g. navigator = "test";w(navigator) returns Navigator
  749. # [16:38] <JakeA> ohh
  750. # [16:39] <JakeA> If there a way to make it overwritable?
  751. # [16:39] <JakeA> Is*
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  754. # [16:41] <JakeA> I guess just don't make it [Unforgeable]
  755. # [16:43] <JakeA> Oh, we'd need to make it explicity [Replaceable]
  756. # [16:43] <JakeA> explicitly*
  757. # [16:43] <JakeA> Is there a problem doing that?
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  759. # [16:45] <annevk> JakeA: ah yeah, that should probably work
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  762. # [16:50] <JakeA> annevk: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/535
  763. # [16:51] <annevk> ta
  764. # [16:57] <wanderview> is caches on window spec'd yet?
  765. # [16:58] <JakeA> wanderview: no :( will bump that issue
  766. # [16:58] <wanderview> JakeA: just curious if that will be in SW spec or somewhere else... since window is non-worker
  767. # [16:59] <wanderview> kind of like how fetch was moved out to a separate spec
  768. # [17:00] <JakeA> wanderview: ideally caches should be a separate spec
  769. # [17:01] <wanderview> JakeA: random other question that came up over here... should scriptCache be per-origin or unique for each SW script?
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  771. # [17:02] <JakeA> ugh
  772. # [17:03] <JakeA> wanderview: how much do you like scriptCache? I dislike it
  773. # [17:03] <JakeA> ohhh, wait, I can get rid of it on security grounds!
  774. # [17:04] * JakeA kisses security
  775. # [17:05] <wanderview> JakeA: thats fine with me... but behind the scenes it should then be a separate cache per SW script URL?
  776. # [17:05] <wanderview> or... should separate SW scripts within the same origin share or not share a single cache?
  777. # [17:06] * wanderview begins to understand the origin vs scope issue better.
  778. # [17:07] <JakeA> wanderview: each SW version gets its own cache for itself and importScripts, but this cache doesn't show up in script access (eg caches.keys())
  779. # [17:07] <annevk> JakeA: Fetch could host a Cache API section...
  780. # [17:07] <annevk> not that farfetched
  781. # [17:07] <wanderview> JakeA: got it... I'll open an issue to clarify that in the spec
  782. # [17:07] <JakeA> wanderview: I'll do it
  783. # [17:07] <JakeA> already started
  784. # [17:07] <wanderview> JakeA: even better :-) thanks!
  785. # [17:08] <JakeA> annevk: I'm not against this moving to fetch. Would be good to get a 2nd opinion on that before moving it though.
  786. # [17:09] <annevk> JakeA: happy to work on that together, but no rush
  787. # [17:11] <wanderview> JakeA: sorry, one last question... did we drop the Cache constructor thing? its not in the spec and I don't see an issue for it
  788. # [17:12] <wanderview> I think maybe it got burried in the mega "review cache api" issue
  789. # [17:13] <JakeA> annevk: in Aus next week, but then my talk commitments are over aside from MCing which doesn't need much prep. Hopefully I'll get some training wheels through this response client merging. Then yeah, will help move caches over.
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  791. # [17:18] <JakeA> wanderview: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/473#issuecomment-60401602
  792. # [17:18] <wanderview> thanks
  793. # [17:18] <JakeA> wanderview: appreciate how much you're soldiering through the cache implementation with pretty much only the ts & bare bones spec to go by
  794. # [17:19] <wanderview> np, thanks for fielding all my questions :-)
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  796. # [17:19] <JakeA> trying to remember where we got to with new Cache
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  799. # [17:22] <wanderview> JakeA: seems the conclusion was to add it: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/372#issuecomment-50937980
  800. # [17:22] <wanderview> but that issue turned more towards the fetch data cloning, etc
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  802. # [17:23] <JakeA> wanderview: creating a new issue to track it now
  803. # [17:23] <wanderview> thanks again
  804. # [17:23] <wanderview> well.. sort of... since I didn't really want the constructor :-)
  805. # [17:23] <JakeA> I'm not really into it either
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  807. # [17:24] <darobin> highly recommended: https://soundcloud.com/daniemon/back-to-cr-one-more-time
  808. # [17:26] <annevk> darobin: that's great
  809. # [17:26] <annevk> darobin: he also made a few with Bruce while still at Opera, so much fun
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  811. # [17:26] <darobin> annevk: yes, he's a genius
  812. # [17:27] <darobin> I hope he brings back Dr Stanley Dards
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  814. # [17:27] <annevk> darobin: so did Tim turn down HTML5?
  815. # [17:27] <darobin> annevk: you'd have to ask him :)
  816. # [17:28] <annevk> darobin: or is this not the entertaining note to go with the press release
  817. # [17:28] <darobin> this is completely unrelated
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  819. # [17:28] <JakeA> wanderview: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/536
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  821. # [17:32] <annevk> JakeA: how is alt #2 different from alt #1 if we make scope optional?
  822. # [17:32] <annevk> JakeA: isn't that the difference?
  823. # [17:32] <annevk> JakeA: personally I'd much rather make them origin-bound
  824. # [17:34] <JakeA> annevk: it's opt-in vs opt-out, and how close it is to the current API makes it easier for me to sell internally (less impact on our intent to ship)
  825. # [17:35] <JakeA> annevk: I really think we need to keep scopes for all the reasons Jonas pointed out, plus github pages & similar host-per-user systems
  826. # [17:35] <JakeA> origin-per-user I mean
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  828. # [17:37] <annevk> JakeA: I think those can be solved later by suborigins
  829. # [17:37] <JakeA> annevk: We could keep tweaking the root of this API for years and not actually deliver anything to developers and ultimately users. I don't think the separation of fetch is a big benefit vs getting us on the path to features native is kicking our arse with
  830. # [17:37] <annevk> JakeA: understood about opt-out now, makes sense to have that
  831. # [17:38] <JakeA> annevk: where should I read about suborigins?
  832. # [17:38] <annevk> JakeA: http://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/per-page-suborigins
  833. # [17:39] <annevk> JakeA: chromium.org could use TLS
  834. # [17:39] <JakeA> Chromium? Are they a new standards group?
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  836. # [17:39] * JakeA runs away laughing
  837. # [17:39] <JakeA> Will read, cheers
  838. # [17:39] <JakeA> There's no excuse for a Google property not using TLS
  839. # [17:39] <annevk> JakeA: hmm, seems chromium.org just needs a 80->443 redirect and HSTS
  840. # [17:40] <JakeA> even less excuse then
  841. # [17:40] <JakeA> lemmie chase that
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  843. # [17:41] <wanderview> so suborigins are basically an extra scoping http header
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  849. # [17:50] <annevk> wanderview: they allow you to create an actual security boundary for some set of resources
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  851. # [17:52] <annevk> wanderview: so yes, scoping with security guarantees rather than scoping without any
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  863. # [18:02] <caitp> how can you keep reading those tweets and not feel sick to your stomach tab, jeeze
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  883. # [18:45] <gsnedders> caitp: I'm managing by crying REAL MAN TEARS®.
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  886. # [18:54] <caitp> (・_・ヾ)???
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  910. # [19:55] <Hixie> MikeSmith: thanks
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  915. # [20:09] <Hixie> seems to be some issue with the mailing list
  916. # [20:09] <Hixie> i've sent in a support request
  917. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> caitp: You referring to me?
  918. # [20:12] <TabAtkins> (My name being a noun makes it confusing when you don't capitalize it.)
  919. # [20:13] <caitp> yeah, although I forget which retweet the comment was about
  920. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> (The alternative, that you have a stomach tab, or think that other people do, is just confusing.)
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  922. # [20:13] <caitp> something about jerks trying to harm survivors of domestic assault
  923. # [20:13] <TabAtkins> Possibly the AVFM people using another charity's trademark?
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  925. # [20:14] <caitp> charming stories like that, can only read so much of it before you feel sick =p
  926. # [20:14] <TabAtkins> I, like, gsnedders use REAL MAN TEARS to cope.
  927. # [20:15] <caitp> whatever that is it must be working
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  929. # [20:15] <TabAtkins> It's like crying, but manlier.
  930. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27161
  931. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> caitp: Also, I only follow awesome people, so when I see something horrible, it's filtered to be just the important stuff, rather than a deluge. Other people can do the curating for me.
  932. # [20:21] <caitp> you should forward the question to people who are actively watching the GG hashtag then :z all of the cherrypicked stuff from it seems pretty horrible
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  935. # [20:21] <gsnedders> caitp: I occasionally look at the hashtag; it's a pretty representative sample that goes out so it's not much worse
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  937. # [20:25] <boogy> is there a way to load a module via a string or a buffer?
  938. # [20:25] <caitp> sounds like an es-discuss question ^_^
  939. # [20:25] <caitp> seems like it would have the same issues as new Function(...) or eval() though
  940. # [20:26] <caitp> so maybe it hasn't been considered
  941. # [20:26] <gsnedders> can you not just use eval?
  942. # [20:26] <boogy> is the a channel or a mailing list?
  943. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> boogy: mailling list.
  944. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> es-discuss@mozilla.org
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  946. # [20:27] <boogy> Thanks. I'll refer the op in another channel where to find more info.
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  949. # [20:28] * MikeSmith tries to imagine what an es-discuss IRC channel would be like
  950. # [20:28] <caitp> less quiet than #v8, slightly noisier version of #jslang?
  951. # [20:31] <Domenic> "slightly"
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  953. # [20:36] <Hixie> MikeSmith: boo :-P should i reassign that to anne? :-)
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  971. # [20:59] <wanderview> JakeA: I see Cache.add() and Cache.addAll() resolve with undefined... is that correct?
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  987. # [21:31] <estellevw> If I have a concern with the spec - notably the value of the range input type’s value attribute when multiple is set not being backward compatible, what is the best way to address that?
  988. # [21:31] <estellevw> The value attribute, if specified, must have a value that is a pair of valid floating-point numbers separated by a single U+002C COMMA character (,).
  989. # [21:31] <estellevw> that makes an invalid value for all browsers supporting range, but not the multiple attribute
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  991. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but you need a totally different fallback if you don't support multiple.
  992. # [21:32] <estellevw> old browsers not support range should be ok: value=“2,4” is valid for text input type
  993. # [21:32] <TabAtkins> You can feature-test tat.
  994. # [21:32] <estellevw> are we expecting all developers to feature test multiple attribute before using it?
  995. # [21:33] <TabAtkins> No, but if they don't, it wont' work. There's no good automatic fallback.
  996. # [21:33] * xiinotulp is now known as plutoniix
  997. # [21:33] <estellevw> yes. exactly, that’s why I wanted to raise a concern
  998. # [21:35] <TabAtkins> I don't mean "there isn't currently good automatic fallback". I mean "there's no way to do good automatic fallback".
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  1000. # [21:35] <estellevw> agreed
  1001. # [21:35] <estellevw> should the dual values be placed in separate attributes?
  1002. # [21:35] <estellevw> that doesn’t sound like a good solution,
  1003. # [21:36] <estellevw> but not having range value fail seems important
  1004. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> It doesn't matter, because it won't fallback properly. A single-value range input is *not* a fallback for a multi-value range input.
  1005. # [21:36] <TabAtkins> You need to test it and use two range inputs or something, or just use a multi-range input and not worry about older browsers.
  1006. # [21:37] <estellevw> obviously y’all have already thought this thru thoroughly.
  1007. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> Unsure if sarcastic or serious.
  1008. # [21:37] <estellevw> no, totally not
  1009. # [21:37] * TabAtkins is having to say that too often these days. ^_^
  1010. # [21:37] <estellevw> basically, yall have already thought of my concerns
  1011. # [21:37] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk. Well, someone did.
  1012. # [21:37] <estellevw> so i’ll go back to my life as usual ;)
  1013. # [21:38] <TabAtkins> I just reasoned backwards on the spot. ^_^
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  1016. # [21:38] <smaug____> hmm, multiple range
  1017. # [21:38] <smaug____> sounds like a bug
  1018. # [21:39] <TabAtkins> smaug____: What do you mean?
  1019. # [21:39] <smaug____> what is the use case
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  1021. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> Specifying a value that ranges from A to B.
  1022. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> Like, say, a work shift.
  1023. # [21:40] <smaug____> and why limit to two values if there is a use case
  1024. # [21:40] <TabAtkins> What's the use-case for more than two?
  1025. # [21:40] <smaug____> ah, that kind of multiple
  1026. # [21:40] <estellevw> smaug____: not sure how much thought went into not having a fallback, and where/when the discussing took place. But TabAtkins makes sense (always), but not having a native fallback is a concern
  1027. # [21:40] <smaug____> does any browser support range + multiple ?
  1028. # [21:40] <estellevw> nope
  1029. # [21:40] <estellevw> none
  1030. # [21:40] <estellevw> tested 2 weeks ago
  1031. # [21:41] <estellevw> though created my own tests, not official tests
  1032. # [21:42] <smaug____> TabAtkins: range contain more than just start and end points, it could have width (or would it be height ) in 2d coordinate space
  1033. # [21:42] <smaug____> s/contain/could contain/
  1034. # [21:42] <TabAtkins> smaug____: That's more than a linear range input can represent.
  1035. # [21:43] <smaug____> multiple is already very different to non-multiple
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  1037. # [21:43] * smaug____ wonders why multiple was added
  1038. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> Because lots of people asked for ti.
  1039. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> (including me)
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  1041. # [21:43] <estellevw> likely because everyone more than one thumb
  1042. # [21:43] <smaug____> multiple sounds like something a script library could do
  1043. # [21:43] <TabAtkins> (I used jQuery for a two-thumb input on several previous projects.)
  1044. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> smaug____: *All* of the inputs sound like something a script library could do.
  1045. # [21:44] <smaug____> not all
  1046. # [21:44] <smaug____> <input type="text"> is good :)
  1047. # [21:44] <TabAtkins> The new ones, at least. ^_^
  1048. # [21:44] <smaug____> yup
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  1050. # [21:45] <wanderview> JakeA: nevermind... I think I buy add/addAll resolving to undefined
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  1073. # [22:21] <JonathanNeal> Where might I find information regarding the Window constructor?
  1074. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: Don't think there is one.
  1075. # [22:22] <TabAtkins> (Which means it'll throw when you call it.)
  1076. # [22:23] <JonathanNeal> Is constructor the wrong word to use? I mean it in the same vain as HTMLDocument and HTMLElement.
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  1078. # [22:23] <TabAtkins> Yeah, you're using it right. There just isn't one.
  1079. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> Windows are only constructed by the UA.
  1080. # [22:24] <Ms2ger> JonathanNeal, interface object
  1081. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> That's an IDL-ism.
  1082. # [22:24] <Ms2ger> JonathanNeal, you would find that in WebIDL and HTML
  1083. # [22:24] <JonathanNeal> There most definitely is a “Window” interface object. I’m just looking for it in a spec of some sort.
  1084. # [22:24] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, is there a reason you're being unhelpful?
  1085. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: I totally misunderstood what he was asking for until just now, that's why. ^_^
  1086. # [22:25] <Ms2ger> I see
  1087. # [22:25] <TabAtkins> The constructor doesn't exist, but the corresponding object does.
  1088. # [22:25] <Ms2ger> Dunno what you mean by constructor, then
  1089. # [22:25] <JonathanNeal> Yes, they’re rather strange in that I treat their prototypes like I would the constructor’s prototype for other objects.
  1090. # [22:26] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: An actual function that constructs the object.
  1091. # [22:27] <JonathanNeal> Ms2ger: would this be the spec for the Window interface object? http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/#ImplicitThis
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  1093. # [22:27] <Ms2ger> JonathanNeal, oh dear
  1094. # [22:27] <Ms2ger> JonathanNeal, https://heycam.github.io/webidl/
  1095. # [22:27] <JonathanNeal> Ms2ger: I don’t mind looking like a fool, if in the end I learn.
  1096. # [22:28] <JonathanNeal> Ms2ger: as in https://heycam.github.io/webidl/#ImplicitThis ?
  1097. # [22:28] <Ms2ger> Depends on what you're looking for, exactly
  1098. # [22:30] <JonathanNeal> Something that defines Window.prototype as extending all window objects.
  1099. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> That's from the definition of a prototype, no?
  1100. # [22:30] <JonathanNeal> Right, so the thing that clarifies that Window targets all window objects.
  1101. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> Probably the IDL in the HTML spec for the Window object.
  1102. # [22:31] <JonathanNeal> It is their “interface object”.
  1103. # [22:31] <Ms2ger> Searching for [[Prototype]] says https://heycam.github.io/webidl/#es-platform-objects
  1104. # [22:31] <TabAtkins> Is there some reason you need this information?
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  1106. # [22:33] <JonathanNeal> Yes, I’m working with a team that did not have an understanding of Window and likewise Window.prototype, so they were swapping out Window.prototype with window. I was explaining that (I hope this is right) Window.prototype should mean iframes inherit from Window.prototype.
  1107. # [22:33] <JonathanNeal> And they replied "is there a good resource that explains the difference between Window and window” … and I paused because I did not know of one, and MDN did not have that sort of thing like they did for HTMLDocument, etc.
  1108. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> The difference is between instance and class.
  1109. # [22:34] <TabAtkins> The "window" object is an instance of the Window class, which has Window.prototype as its prototype.
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  1111. # [22:35] <caitp> can you actually extend Window.prototype in a meaningful way? like, does window.open-created windows inherit from the original window's prototype?
  1112. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> (Iframes, with their own JS environment, will use a *different* Window class than the outer page, so anything you add to the outer page's Window.prototype won't show up in iframes.
  1113. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> caitp: Dunno!
  1114. # [22:35] <TabAtkins> I'm not sure how window.open()-created windows work, but if they have a fresh JS environment, then they won't.
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  1116. # [22:35] <Ms2ger> They do
  1117. # [22:35] <caitp> well in chrome, apparently not
  1118. # [22:36] <caitp> yeah there you go
  1119. # [22:36] <Ms2ger> window.open() returns a Window, which is a global object
  1120. # [22:37] <TabAtkins> From the new window's global? Or the original? both of you were ambiguous in which part of my phrasing you were responding to.
  1121. # [22:37] <Ms2ger> Eh?
  1122. # [22:37] <caitp> i'm just saying I don't think extending Window's prototype is really useful in any context, as far as I'm aware
  1123. # [22:37] <Ms2ger> s/returns a/returns a new/
  1124. # [22:38] <TabAtkins> "if they ahve a fresh JS environment" or "they they won't [inherit from the original window's prototype]"
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  1126. # [22:39] <Ms2ger> If you call window.open(), you create a new Window object/global/compartment/realm/JS environment, whatever you want to call it
  1127. # [22:39] <JonathanNeal> Right you are, neither iframe or window.open’s window inherited from Window.prototype.
  1128. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> Those are different! A Window is an object in a JS environment.
  1129. # [22:39] <JonathanNeal> At least, not in Chrome.
  1130. # [22:39] <TabAtkins> Also happens to be the global for that environment.
  1131. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> Global object and JS environment (as you appear to be using it) are 1:1
  1132. # [22:40] <JonathanNeal> caitp: my initial test would confirm that extending Window.prototype is rather useless, which is not at all what I expected.
  1133. # [22:40] <Ms2ger> So as a mathematician, I just take the quotient over the equivalence, and treat them as equal :)
  1134. # [22:41] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Yeah, it's probably valid to talk about it like you are, but if people are already confused about instances vs classes and the like, being as explicit as possible about environments and where certain classes come from is probably good.
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  1136. # [22:42] <smaug____> JonathanNeal: extending Window.prototype can be rather useless also because of its special behavior http://heycam.github.io/webidl/#Global
  1137. # [22:42] <Ms2ger> smaug____, useless for overriding, not so much for adding
  1138. # [22:42] <smaug____> (and I note that better to not test webidl behavior in Chrome ;) )
  1139. # [22:42] <smaug____> Ms2ger: indeed
  1140. # [22:43] <TabAtkins> smaug____: Yes, good point. Chrome has been violating WebIDL for a long time regarding whether properties of built-ins are on the prototype or the instances.
  1141. # [22:43] <JonathanNeal> smaug____: what a disappointment. That’s a pretty useless class, all right.
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  1144. # [22:43] <Ms2ger> Yay web compat
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  1148. # [22:45] <caitp> to be fair, the bindings generation stuff is all python so it's really intimidating for anyone to try and fix it
  1149. # [22:45] <JonathanNeal> Does this mean that using HTMLDocument is also fairly useless?
  1150. # [22:46] <caitp> not necessarily
  1151. # [22:46] <caitp> not sure if DocumentImplementation#createDocument would work
  1152. # [22:46] <smaug____> if you create several HTMLDocument object in the same scope, they share the prototype
  1153. # [22:46] <TabAtkins> caitp: Nothing to do with programming difficulty in Blink; it's a perf issue.
  1154. # [22:47] <TabAtkins> JonathanNeal: HTMLDocuments aren't associated with fresh environments. They're just like any other normal object.
  1155. # [22:47] <caitp> Tab I was just taking another opportunity to troll python fans :p
  1156. # [22:47] <caitp> don't take it seriously lopl
  1157. # [22:47] <caitp> it's friday, oy
  1158. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> caitp: Ah, I thought you just had a mistaken impression of what was causing the issue.
  1159. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> (Friday is a time for sober reflection and formal dress, not trolling, SIR/MADAM/OTHER.)
  1160. # [22:48] <caitp> sober reflection can wait until after the weekend =)
  1161. # [22:48] <TabAtkins> Weekend is for drunk reflection.
  1162. # [22:49] <JonathanNeal> caitp: when would I be creating a document? Fragments don’t inherit from HTMLDocument either.
  1163. # [22:50] <caitp> DocumentImplementation can do it
  1164. # [22:50] <Ms2ger> document.implementation.createHTMLDocument()
  1165. # [22:50] <JonathanNeal> When would someone need that?
  1166. # [22:51] <caitp> er
  1167. # [22:51] <caitp> apparently i'm getting the name of the interface wrong
  1168. # [22:51] <JonathanNeal> Well, what a crazy thing to learn, Window and HTMLDocument are rather useless in most usecases.
  1169. # [22:52] <JonathanNeal> For example, there is no benefit to polyfilling Window.prototype.matchMedia versus window.matchMedia.
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  1171. # [22:53] * Ms2ger never liked polyfills anyway
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  1173. # [22:56] <caitp> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7738046/what-for-to-use-document-implementation-createhtmldocument there are some use-cases there if you're interested, I've only ever found it useful for testing though
  1174. # [23:01] <JonathanNeal> thanks, caitp.
  1175. # [23:01] <JonathanNeal> I need to hang my head low for a while. I had pretty much written things to get old IE to treat Window/HTMLDocument like I expected, but I think I should undo them now because it’s not how it’s supposed to work.
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  1182. # [23:05] <Domenic> annevk: thoughts on making DOMTokenList constructable? I'd like to write a Blink patch soon-ish but want to get your blessing first.
  1183. # [23:05] <Domenic> And preferably Boris's too
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  1187. # [23:08] <JonathanNeal> Domenic: what would you use it for?
  1188. # [23:09] <Domenic> JonathanNeal: creating custom elements that expose tokenized attributes
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  1191. # [23:11] <JonathanNeal> function TokenList() {} TokenList.prototype = DOMTokenList.prototype ?
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  1193. # [23:13] <JonathanNeal> Or you could even overwrite the DOMTokenList contructor, I suppose. I had to do something similar with https://github.com/Financial-Times/polyfill-service/blob/master/polyfills/Window.prototype.DOMTokenList/polyfill.js and https://github.com/Financial-Times/polyfill-service/blob/master/polyfills/Element.prototype.classList/polyfill.js
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  1198. # [23:20] <JonathanNeal> I can’t believe I misunderstood Window/HTMLDocument. Thanks so much for the info, caitp, Ms2ger, TabAtkins.
  1199. # [23:20] <TabAtkins> np
  1200. # [23:21] <Ms2ger> Np
  1201. # [23:22] <JonathanNeal> On the upside, polyfills will be a lot easier to manage, and I can drop all the Window/HTMLDocument.prototype stuff from the folders.
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  1216. # [23:40] <TabAtkins> Hmm, I'm reading WebIDL back and forth, and I can't see how to define the iteration order for a setlike interface. IDL requires that a setlike does *not* have an explicit iterable declaration, but only the iterable declaration actually asks for prose on ordering.
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  1220. # [23:41] <Domenic> i think the idea might be it's always insertion order, like ES sets?
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  1222. # [23:43] <TabAtkins> Yeah, but I have some custom ordering. It's insertion order for the ones you insert yourself, but the UA-added ones are in document order, before the other ones.
  1223. # [23:44] <TabAtkins> (Exposing precise UA resolution order isn't really something I want to do - too racy.)
  1224. # [23:45] <Domenic> TabAtkins: my guess is that kind of thing wasn't anticipated, so I'd just specify the ordering in the prose anyway?
  1225. # [23:45] <TabAtkins> Yeah, that's what I'm doing right now.
  1226. # [23:45] <Domenic> JonathanNeal: I was excited about that idea for a second but when you try that you get "TypeError: 'add' called on an object that does not implement interface DOMTokenList."
  1227. # [23:45] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
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  1232. # [23:50] <JonathanNeal> What?! Oh, what a bummer. It gets all special?
  1233. # [23:51] <JonathanNeal> Well, you can take the DOMTokenlist polyfill. That implements to spec, down to method.name and method.length
  1234. # Session Close: Sat Oct 25 00:00:00 2014

The end :)