/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-11-04 / end

Options:

Previous day, Next day

  1. # Session Start: Tue Nov 04 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:03] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.244.6.8)
  4. # [00:07] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@91.180.155.79) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  5. # [00:08] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@2620:101:80fb:232:18a3:b90d:eae4:952e) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  6. # [00:09] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@2620:101:80fb:224:a10e:48ff:e9ab:ae43)
  7. # [00:13] * Quits: jsx (uid48919@fsf/intern/jsx) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  8. # [00:22] * Quits: scrollback (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-pndqthuqibclofuh) (Remote host closed the connection)
  9. # [00:22] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com)
  10. # [00:24] * Joins: scrollback (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-aprpqauvenwqrcqa)
  11. # [00:29] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: :tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak)
  12. # [00:29] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.244.6.8) (Quit: weinig)
  13. # [00:32] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-147-46-136.range86-147.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  14. # [00:41] * Quits: marcosc (~marcosc@135-23-143-20.cpe.pppoe.ca) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  15. # [00:43] * Quits: mven (~textual@32.97.110.57) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  16. # [00:46] * Quits: thinkxl (~thinkxl@74-95-237-22-Houston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Remote host closed the connection)
  17. # [00:56] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM84948c4c6f80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  18. # [01:02] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  19. # [01:05] * Quits: dshwang (~dshwang@192.55.54.40) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  20. # [01:07] * Joins: dshwang (dshwang@nat/intel/x-xgbhlwhpwbpkeioy)
  21. # [01:08] * Quits: brunoB (~Bruno@18-45-231-201.fibertel.com.ar) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  22. # [01:08] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs78246079.pp.htv.fi)
  23. # [01:09] * Joins: sicking_ (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  24. # [01:09] * Quits: sicking_ (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Client Quit)
  25. # [01:09] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  26. # [01:09] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  27. # [01:14] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Client Quit)
  28. # [01:14] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  29. # [01:18] * Joins: jungkees (uid24208@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-llbqavctmgfwjvfl)
  30. # [01:23] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: "current" and "dated" is great (I realize you already decidedーjust chiming in for moral support)
  31. # [01:23] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@209.49.73.82)
  32. # [01:29] * Joins: tav_ (~tav`@host86-157-22-27.range86-157.btcentralplus.com)
  33. # [01:31] * Quits: tav (~tav`@host86-157-22-27.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  34. # [01:31] * tav_ is now known as tav
  35. # [01:33] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189)
  36. # [01:46] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@209.49.73.82) (Quit: Snuggling with the puppies)
  37. # [01:51] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM84948c4c6f80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  38. # [01:57] * Joins: caitp- (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM84948c4c6f80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  39. # [01:58] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@210.213.57.70)
  40. # [01:59] * Joins: KevinMarks (~yaaic@2607:fb90:2821:4412:f8cd:35a:b48b:7d3d)
  41. # [02:00] * Quits: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM84948c4c6f80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  42. # [02:13] * Quits: eric_carlson (~eric@17.202.43.125) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  43. # [02:13] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@24.6.239.9)
  44. # [02:17] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.139.213)
  45. # [02:21] * Quits: ap (~ap@17.202.44.214)
  46. # [02:24] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs78246079.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  47. # [02:30] * Quits: abinader (sid21713@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ityurvdfhyecfsdf)
  48. # [02:36] * Joins: mven (~textual@72.183.104.138)
  49. # [02:46] * Quits: mko (~mko@50.240.205.146) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  50. # [02:48] * Joins: tripu (~tripu@2001:200:0:8805:b1af:17b2:42ad:eb1d)
  51. # [02:51] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com) (Quit: sicking)
  52. # [02:54] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.139.213) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  53. # [02:54] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.139.213)
  54. # [03:02] * Quits: mven (~textual@72.183.104.138) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  55. # [03:02] * Quits: bnicholson (~bnicholso@2620:101:80fc:224:8517:d573:db3b:4a82) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  56. # [03:03] <jgraham> Currant and Dated would have been a better pun
  57. # [03:03] * Joins: mven (~textual@72.183.104.138)
  58. # [03:07] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  59. # [03:08] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  60. # [03:10] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  61. # [03:12] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  62. # [03:13] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  63. # [03:15] <MikeSmith> jgraham: harhar
  64. # [03:17] * Joins: Goplat (~goplat@reactos/developer/Goplat)
  65. # [03:17] <MikeSmith> I think that pun would be completely lost on most en-US-ers
  66. # [03:18] <erlehmann> USAsians?
  67. # [03:18] <erlehmann> currant is a dried fruit
  68. # [03:19] <erlehmann> date is also fruit!
  69. # [03:19] <terinjokes> isn't fig also a fruit?
  70. # [03:19] * Quits: mven (~textual@72.183.104.138) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
  71. # [03:20] <terinjokes> wikipedia tells me no, it's not a fruit, and then preceeds to talk about the tree's "editable fruit" so…
  72. # [03:21] <erlehmann> fugggg
  73. # [03:21] <roc> is that a <fig contenteditable>?
  74. # [03:21] * Quits: KevinMarks (~yaaic@2607:fb90:2821:4412:f8cd:35a:b48b:7d3d) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  75. # [03:21] <terinjokes> :+1:
  76. # [03:22] <MikeSmith> erlehmann: Thanks I didn't require the explicit explanation myself but I appreciate the consideration
  77. # [03:23] <erlehmann> is currant a mene in here?
  78. # [03:23] <erlehmann> chinese date is fruit!
  79. # [03:23] <erlehmann> fruit is internet mene!
  80. # [03:24] * Joins: KevinMarks (~yaaic@2607:fb90:2816:8e1:b14a:4e7a:9326:9a26)
  81. # [03:24] <terinjokes> as the self-proclaimed jokester in here, can confirm
  82. # [03:25] <MikeSmith> terinjokes: your implication that Wikipedia might have some inconsistencies is shocking
  83. # [03:25] <terinjokes> remember, wikipedia is always correct. reality is just sometimes wrong.
  84. # [03:25] <MikeSmith> I cringe pretty much any time I read any Wikipedia article odd any length
  85. # [03:26] <erlehmann> mene is confirmed then
  86. # [03:26] <MikeSmith> *Of any length
  87. # [03:27] <erlehmann> odd
  88. # [03:27] <erlehmann> fug!
  89. # [03:27] <erlehmann> so what is it about currant mene?
  90. # [03:27] <erlehmann> how come?
  91. # [03:31] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@210.213.57.70) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  92. # [03:34] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I hope you aren't accusing Ms2ger of being American
  93. # [03:38] * Joins: mven (~textual@72.183.104.138)
  94. # [03:39] <terinjokes> anyone know if IE is aware of their evt.defaultPrevented bug and ever plans on fixing it?
  95. # [03:41] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@2620:101:80fb:224:a10e:48ff:e9ab:ae43) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  96. # [03:43] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@210.213.57.70)
  97. # [03:46] * Joins: bnicholson (~bnicholso@24.130.60.241)
  98. # [03:47] * Quits: ambv (~ambv@206.108.217.134) (Quit: sys.exit(0) # app closed)
  99. # [03:50] <terinjokes> (the property is set to `true` immediately after calling "preventDefault", but is reset back to `false` at some point later
  100. # [03:51] <MikeSmith> jgraham: if I ever suggested he were American-ish at all, it'd only be in a completely positive sense; e.g. having a strong suspicion of authority :-)
  101. # [03:56] <jgraham> MikeSmith: That fig-ures
  102. # [03:56] * jgraham gets his coat
  103. # [03:56] <MikeSmith> haha
  104. # [03:58] <erlehmann> > murrican
  105. # [03:58] <erlehmann> > suspicion of authorithy
  106. # [03:58] <erlehmann> you best be joking
  107. # [04:00] * Quits: mven (~textual@72.183.104.138) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
  108. # [04:00] * Joins: mven (~textual@72.183.104.138)
  109. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> erlehmann: I'm from Texas. when it comes to be suspicious of, e.g., the national government, we don't joke
  110. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> actually I take that back. we do joke
  111. # [04:03] * Joins: karlcow_ (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  112. # [04:04] * Quits: markkes (~markkes@62.207.90.201) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  113. # [04:04] <erlehmann> MikeSmith i thought that was just some kind of jurisdiction thing
  114. # [04:05] <erlehmann> “i am not against abortion, i am against federal funding for it” and similar
  115. # [04:05] <erlehmann> but all of this is off topic and i am sleepy
  116. # [04:05] <erlehmann> so i won't elaborate
  117. # [04:05] * Quits: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  118. # [04:05] <erlehmann> back to HTML!
  119. # [04:05] <erlehmann> annevk were there notable replies to your HTTPS post?
  120. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> HTML is completed. I guess you didn't see the news.
  121. # [04:06] <erlehmann> oh, yeah. did someone send the W3C a cake?
  122. # [04:10] * Quits: mven (~textual@72.183.104.138) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
  123. # [04:11] * Joins: mven (~textual@72.183.104.138)
  124. # [04:14] * Quits: karlcow_ (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Quit: :tiuQ tiuq sah woclrak)
  125. # [04:14] * Joins: karlcow (~karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  126. # [04:25] * Quits: newbie79 (~Areks@rs.gridnine.com) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  127. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> erlehmann: donuts
  128. # [04:28] <MikeSmith> Krispy Kreme
  129. # [04:33] <terinjokes> wat… i'll like some krispy kreme
  130. # [04:52] * Joins: eBureau (~Bruno@18-45-231-201.fibertel.com.ar)
  131. # [05:13] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:80fc:232:7e7a:91ff:fe25:a5a3) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-8.1450hg.fc20 [XULRunner 32.0/20140902134853])
  132. # [05:27] * Quits: mven (~textual@72.183.104.138) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  133. # [05:37] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-249.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com)
  134. # [05:48] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com)
  135. # [05:50] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@2001:cb0:b202:232:2677:3ff:fece:dc64) (Remote host closed the connection)
  136. # [05:52] * Quits: psy_ (~psy@103.6.159.172) (Remote host closed the connection)
  137. # [05:54] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-249.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: Snuggling with the puppies)
  138. # [06:11] * Joins: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@103.249.181.147)
  139. # [06:18] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@50-0-248-60.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com)
  140. # [06:28] * Quits: kochi1 (~kochi@2401:fa00:4:1000:b554:ae06:dd2a:1590) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  141. # [06:29] * Quits: kochi (~kochi@2401:fa00:4:1000:b554:ae06:dd2a:1590) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  142. # [06:31] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  143. # [06:38] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  144. # [06:39] <zewt> cool, twitter tab in chrome taking 2gb
  145. # [06:41] * Joins: kochi (~kochi@2401:fa00:4:1000:1cf4:387a:6048:5013)
  146. # [06:41] <MikeSmith> zewt: yeah, you need to leave it open for a bit longer for it to reach 4GB
  147. # [06:41] <zewt> chrome tabs never get that big, so i assume they're all 32bit processes
  148. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> so I just now installed the remote IE thing on my Android phone and it actually works. kinda amazing
  149. # [06:42] * Joins: kochi1 (~kochi@2401:fa00:4:1000:1cf4:387a:6048:5013)
  150. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> zewt: yeah?
  151. # [06:42] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-249.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com)
  152. # [06:42] <MikeSmith> wonder why they do it that way
  153. # [06:43] <zewt> i'd be happy to not be getting daily memory warnings from windows that almost always originate from either firefox or chrome, heh
  154. # [06:43] <zewt> apparently 16 gigs of memory isn't enough these days
  155. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> I seem to do fine with 8GB, even compiling Firefox Nightly and Chromium a few times a week
  156. # [06:44] <zewt> that suggests you're restarting your browsers a few times a week
  157. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> and this is on a 3-year-old macbook
  158. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> nope
  159. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> well yeah
  160. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> of course
  161. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> but not because of crashes
  162. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> just after I recompile
  163. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> so yeah maybe that makes a difference
  164. # [06:45] <zewt> well, restarting browsers has a way of rebooting leakiness
  165. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> sure
  166. # [06:46] <MikeSmith> maybe that suggests a best practice: Don't use off-the-shelf browsers; instead, compile them from the sources several times a week. :)
  167. # [06:46] <zewt> things i don't ever want to do: compile browsers
  168. # [06:47] <zewt> i guess the only possible solution is to find a motherboard that'll handle 64 gigs or something
  169. # [06:47] <MikeSmith> I guess I would notice the compile time/perf costs a lot more if I were actually doing browser development and need to compile often daily
  170. # [06:48] <MikeSmith> zewt: that probably wouldn't cost you much :p
  171. # [06:48] <zewt> probably still need server hardware for that much
  172. # [06:48] <zewt> mostly i just don't want to have to think about memory or micromanage browser memory usage, heh
  173. # [06:49] <MikeSmith> computers suck so much. we really have not right to be patting ourselves on the back
  174. # [06:49] <zewt> which i didn't have to until fairly recently, not sure what changed
  175. # [06:49] <MikeSmith> carelessness happened, apparently
  176. # [06:50] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com)
  177. # [06:51] <MikeSmith> one would think that in the 21st century we'd be far along enough that browser projects would be running some kind of CI automation to check for memory leaks and identify possible causes
  178. # [06:52] <MikeSmith> either that or we could be building things with programming languages that don't cause so much memory leaks and/or that at least don't make them so hard to track donw
  179. # [06:57] * Joins: TuRnaD0 (~Thunderbi@x1-6-e0-46-9a-1e-fe-ca.cpe.webspeed.dk)
  180. # [06:58] * Quits: eBureau (~Bruno@18-45-231-201.fibertel.com.ar) (Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  181. # [07:00] * Joins: psy_ (~psy@103.6.159.172)
  182. # [07:04] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  183. # [07:05] <zewt> probably more to do with not capping the inherent sloppiness of the web
  184. # Session Close: Tue Nov 04 07:10:40 2014
  185. #
  186. # Session Start: Tue Nov 04 07:10:40 2014
  187. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  188. # [07:10] * Disconnected
  189. # [07:11] * Attempting to rejoin channel #whatwg
  190. # [07:11] * Rejoined channel #whatwg
  191. # [07:11] * Topic is 'http://www.whatwg.org/ — logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ & http://logbot.glob.com.au/ — stats: http://gavinsharp.com/irc/whatwg.html — Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!'
  192. # [07:11] * Set by annevk!~annevk@207.218.72.65 on Tue Mar 25 11:47:32
  193. # [07:11] * Joins: tommyliu_ (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189)
  194. # [07:19] * Quits: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@103.249.181.147) (*.net *.split)
  195. # [07:19] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189) (*.net *.split)
  196. # [07:19] * Quits: scrollback (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-aprpqauvenwqrcqa) (*.net *.split)
  197. # [07:19] * Quits: krijnhoetmer (~krijnhoet@ip4da4a84d.direct-adsl.nl) (*.net *.split)
  198. # [07:19] * Quits: zama (~zama@unaffiliated/stryx/x-3871776) (*.net *.split)
  199. # [07:20] * Joins: zama (~zama@unaffiliated/stryx/x-3871776)
  200. # [07:28] * Quits: Goplat (~goplat@reactos/developer/Goplat) (Remote host closed the connection)
  201. # [07:29] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host86-147-46-136.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
  202. # [07:38] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  203. # [07:47] * Quits: TuRnaD0 (~Thunderbi@x1-6-e0-46-9a-1e-fe-ca.cpe.webspeed.dk) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  204. # [07:48] <zcorpan> annevk: web compat was one consideration but not the only one, and i think the url parser was fine as far as web compat goes
  205. # [07:48] <zcorpan> annevk: i only recall idna2008 disallowing some characters that broke tinyarrows
  206. # [07:55] * Quits: tommyliu_ (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189) (Remote host closed the connection)
  207. # [07:57] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@98.234.191.242)
  208. # [07:57] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@98.234.191.242) (Client Quit)
  209. # [08:00] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
  210. # [08:01] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  211. # [08:04] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-147-46-136.range86-147.btcentralplus.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  212. # [08:06] * Joins: dydz (~dydz@76-220-18-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  213. # [08:07] * Quits: halfline (rstrode@nat/redhat/x-kvvqqfkccyfbhzgy) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  214. # [08:07] * Quits: caitp- (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM84948c4c6f80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  215. # [08:07] * Joins: halfline (rstrode@nat/redhat/session)
  216. # [08:08] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@50-0-248-60.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  217. # [08:14] * Quits: dydz (~dydz@76-220-18-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dydz)
  218. # [08:17] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@nata206.ugent.be)
  219. # [08:20] * Joins: caitp (~caitp@CPE48f8b385c01c-CM84948c4c6f80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
  220. # [08:20] * Joins: dydz (~dydz@76-220-18-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net)
  221. # [08:21] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  222. # [08:23] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@61.144.248.40)
  223. # [08:23] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@61.144.248.40) (Remote host closed the connection)
  224. # [08:23] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@61.144.248.40)
  225. # [08:38] * Joins: cbr (~cbr@145.36.150.83.chzhher77.rootnet.ch)
  226. # [08:43] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  227. # [08:49] * Quits: Mso150_z (~ctlM@80.83.238.73) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  228. # [08:49] * Quits: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-249.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) (Quit: Snuggling with the puppies)
  229. # [08:56] * Joins: Mso150 (~ctlM@80.83.239.100)
  230. # [09:03] * Joins: markkes (~markkes@62.207.90.201)
  231. # [09:12] * Joins: laurensclaessen (~laurenscl@91.183.84.141)
  232. # [09:19] <annevk> zcorpan: it wasn't, at least not at the point I left
  233. # [09:19] <annevk> erlehmann: not really, some disagreement over whether EV is a scam on Twitter
  234. # [09:19] <annevk> erlehmann: made me find http://www.adambarth.com/papers/2007/jackson-simon-tan-barth.pdf
  235. # [09:30] * Joins: tommyliu_ (~tommyliu@183.37.132.30)
  236. # [09:32] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@61.144.248.40) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  237. # [09:33] * Joins: pfefferle (~pfefferle@p4FDCC32A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  238. # [09:33] * Quits: pfefferle (~pfefferle@p4FDCC32A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Client Quit)
  239. # [09:37] * Joins: Mso150_x (~ctlM@217.118.64.38)
  240. # [09:37] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74)
  241. # [09:39] <erlehmann> wach
  242. # [09:40] * Quits: Mso150 (~ctlM@80.83.239.100) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  243. # [09:42] * Quits: KevinMarks (~yaaic@2607:fb90:2816:8e1:b14a:4e7a:9326:9a26) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  244. # [09:42] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@c-98-210-159-193.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  245. # [09:43] * Joins: ^esc_ (~esc-ape@91.141.1.224.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  246. # [09:44] * Joins: pfefferle (~pfefferle@p4FDCC32A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  247. # [09:45] * Quits: ^esc (~esc-ape@178.165.130.112.wireless.dyn.drei.com) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  248. # [09:46] * Joins: KevinMarks (~yaaic@2607:fb90:2829:7699:ccef:754e:ac59:c6e2)
  249. # [09:53] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@176.12.107.140)
  250. # [09:57] * Joins: Smylers1 (~smylers@94.116.127.1)
  251. # [09:57] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@176.12.107.140) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  252. # [10:02] * Quits: lokling (~quassel@quassel.woboq.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  253. # [10:06] * Quits: Smylers1 (~smylers@94.116.127.1) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  254. # [10:07] * Quits: pfefferle (~pfefferle@p4FDCC32A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: pfefferle)
  255. # [10:08] * Quits: psy_ (~psy@103.6.159.172) (Remote host closed the connection)
  256. # [10:09] * Joins: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130)
  257. # [10:10] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@121-99-87-47.bng1.tvc.orcon.net.nz)
  258. # [10:12] <annevk> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr51/
  259. # [10:13] <annevk> "Unicode Version 8.0 is adding 5 symbol modifier characters that provide for a range of skin tones for human emoji."
  260. # [10:15] <erlehmann> those insensitive clods, i am drawing a monochrome font!
  261. # [10:16] * Joins: pfefferle_ (~pfefferle@p4FDCC32A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  262. # [10:16] <erlehmann> its worse enough that „black“ means „filled“ and „white“ means „not filled“ in unicode. we only have this problem because almost everyone decided to make emoji colorful. :(
  263. # [10:17] * Quits: pfefferle (~pfefferle@213.144.11.130) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  264. # [10:17] * pfefferle_ is now known as pfefferle
  265. # [10:17] <annevk> erlehmann: just place U+FE0E after your emoji to get a text presentation
  266. # [10:18] <annevk> (in a theoretical system)
  267. # [10:18] <erlehmann> annevk i am drawing the symbols
  268. # [10:18] <erlehmann> example http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/pics/icons/unifont-symbols-emoji.png
  269. # [10:18] <annevk> good times
  270. # [10:19] <erlehmann> i have NO IDEA how to draw 5 different skin tones in a monochrome 16×16 pixel grid
  271. # [10:21] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194)
  272. # [10:23] * Quits: dydz (~dydz@76-220-18-65.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net) (Quit: dydz)
  273. # [10:26] * Quits: tommyliu_ (~tommyliu@183.37.132.30) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  274. # [10:26] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.132.30)
  275. # [10:28] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.132.30) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  276. # [10:29] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.132.30)
  277. # [10:31] * Joins: psy_ (~psy@122.172.133.229)
  278. # [10:32] * Quits: Somatt_wrk_ (~somattwrk@130.193.24.135) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  279. # [10:32] * Joins: Somatt_wrk (~somattwrk@130.193.24.135)
  280. # [10:33] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  281. # [10:33] <annevk> erlehmann: they are doing this to spite you
  282. # [10:33] <erlehmann> well, i read the document and i better start doing stippled patches
  283. # [10:35] * Joins: calvaris (~calvaris@fanzine.igalia.com)
  284. # [10:36] * Joins: espadrine_ (~ttyl@LMontsouris-656-01-02-84.w80-12.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  285. # [10:36] * Quits: halfline (rstrode@nat/redhat/session) (Changing host)
  286. # [10:36] * Joins: halfline (rstrode@nat/redhat/x-sprgzbyfajodsppv)
  287. # [10:41] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs78246079.pp.htv.fi)
  288. # [10:41] * Quits: espadrine_ (~ttyl@LMontsouris-656-01-02-84.w80-12.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  289. # [10:42] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-98-210-159-193.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
  290. # [10:44] <zcorpan> erlehmann: nice trollface
  291. # [10:45] <erlehmann> zcorpan unfortunately, my COOL FACE was the only symbol the maintainer did not merge. it did not fit with the style of the other glyphs!
  292. # [10:45] <erlehmann> but i cannot think of a more stereotypical „grinning face with smiling eyes“!
  293. # [10:46] <erlehmann> i found it funny how people can recognize the pictograph for levitating business man
  294. # [10:47] * Quits: sarri (~sari@p50995cae.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  295. # [10:48] * Quits: tripu (~tripu@2001:200:0:8805:b1af:17b2:42ad:eb1d) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  296. # [10:49] * Quits: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-zbajcenzaahcymwi) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  297. # [10:50] * Joins: bodoke (~bodoke__@200.175.53.230.static.gvt.net.br)
  298. # [10:50] * Joins: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-yegdoxcjyzbpdymq)
  299. # [10:52] * Joins: lokling (~quassel@quassel.woboq.com)
  300. # [10:52] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@5.153.233.26)
  301. # [10:54] * Joins: sarri (~sari@p50995cae.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  302. # [10:55] * Joins: espadrine_ (~ttyl@LMontsouris-656-01-02-84.w80-12.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  303. # [10:55] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@24.6.239.9) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  304. # [10:57] <zcorpan> i'm a bit sad that this hasn't been accepted yet https://twitter.com/zcorpan/status/463577369265971200
  305. # [11:01] <darobin> an awesome idea
  306. # [11:02] <Ms2ger> Hey darobin, know what'd be an awesome idea too?
  307. # [11:02] <darobin> yes, I need a nap
  308. # [11:03] <darobin> plus, I've finished all the chocolate that jgraham brought me
  309. # [11:03] <Ms2ger> Or reviewing https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/2985 :)
  310. # [11:03] * darobin looks
  311. # [11:03] <darobin> ooh nice
  312. # [11:04] <darobin> not this second but definitely keeping the tab open
  313. # [11:04] * Joins: Areks (~Areks@95-26-195-186.broadband.corbina.ru)
  314. # [11:06] <Ms2ger> Thanks :)
  315. # [11:07] * Joins: Lachy_ (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
  316. # [11:09] * Quits: Areks (~Areks@95-26-195-186.broadband.corbina.ru) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  317. # [11:16] * Quits: laurensclaessen (~laurenscl@91.183.84.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
  318. # [11:18] * Joins: laurensclaessen (~laurenscl@91.183.84.141)
  319. # [11:23] <zcorpan> erlehmann: my reading suggests you should probably use the fallback support level, i.e. not combine
  320. # [11:23] <erlehmann> yeah
  321. # [11:27] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@nata206.ugent.be) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  322. # [11:28] * Quits: bodoke (~bodoke__@200.175.53.230.static.gvt.net.br) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  323. # [11:43] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@nata206.ugent.be)
  324. # [11:46] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@210.213.57.70) (Quit: จรลี จรลา)
  325. # [11:52] * Quits: lokling (~quassel@quassel.woboq.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  326. # [11:55] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@nata206.ugent.be) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  327. # [11:55] * Joins: lokling (~lokling@quassel.woboq.com)
  328. # [12:01] * Quits: Lachy_ (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  329. # [12:03] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
  330. # [12:05] * Quits: beowulf (~sstewart@host109-154-203-66.range109-154.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: leaving)
  331. # [12:05] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.132.30) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  332. # [12:06] * Joins: beowulf (~sstewart@host109-154-203-66.range109-154.btcentralplus.com)
  333. # [12:07] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@nata206.ugent.be)
  334. # [12:11] * Quits: laurensclaessen (~laurenscl@91.183.84.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
  335. # [12:12] * Joins: laurensclaessen (~laurenscl@91.183.84.141)
  336. # [12:14] * Quits: laurensclaessen (~laurenscl@91.183.84.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
  337. # [12:20] * Joins: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de)
  338. # [12:24] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.132.30)
  339. # [12:40] * Quits: Mso150_x (~ctlM@217.118.64.38) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  340. # [12:43] <karlcow> Pile of poo should have different colors.
  341. # [12:44] <erlehmann> karlcow you are of genious
  342. # [12:44] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@5ED090B0.cm-7-1c.dynamic.ziggo.nl)
  343. # [12:44] * Quits: lilmonkey` (~colin@5ED090B0.cm-7-1c.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Changing host)
  344. # [12:44] * Joins: lilmonkey` (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven)
  345. # [12:46] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.132.30) (Remote host closed the connection)
  346. # [12:47] * Quits: lilmonkey (~colin@pdpc/supporter/professional/riven) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  347. # [12:49] * Joins: laurensclaessen (~laurenscl@91.183.84.141)
  348. # [12:50] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  349. # [12:57] <roc> we have SVG fonts now. Use gradients.
  350. # [13:00] * Joins: tripu (~tripu@p29026-ipngn8101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
  351. # [13:01] * Ms2ger read "we hate SVG fonts now"
  352. # [13:06] * Quits: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de) (Quit: davidyezsetz)
  353. # [13:10] * Quits: psy_ (~psy@122.172.133.229) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  354. # [13:11] * Joins: psy_ (~psy@122.172.133.229)
  355. # [13:16] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs78246079.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  356. # [13:27] * Joins: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de)
  357. # [13:28] <espadrine_> does the URL standard purposefully ignore IPv4 addresses as hosts?
  358. # [13:28] <espadrine_> context: I was wondering if the 127.1 shorthand was documented anywhere
  359. # [13:34] <espadrine_> by the way, should this work: http://[0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1]
  360. # [13:45] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189)
  361. # [13:45] * Quits: psy_ (~psy@122.172.133.229) (Remote host closed the connection)
  362. # [13:49] * Quits: rcombs (~rcombs@rcombs.me) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
  363. # [13:52] * Joins: rcombs (~rcombs@rcombs.me)
  364. # [13:52] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189) (Remote host closed the connection)
  365. # [13:54] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189)
  366. # [13:57] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.188)
  367. # [14:03] <annevk> espadrine_: it did, but that needs to be changed
  368. # [14:03] <Domenic> Nice, Intent to Implement for Element.prototype.closest
  369. # [14:04] <annevk> espadrine_: yes, that becomes http://[::1]/
  370. # [14:04] * Quits: payman (~payman@ip-200.t2.se.opera.com) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  371. # [14:04] <annevk> Domenic: nice, bz looked into at some point for Firefox, not sure what happened
  372. # [14:05] <annevk> Domenic: perhaps we're afraid of event handlers biting
  373. # [14:05] <Domenic> apparently WebKit has it, so webcompat must not be a big issue
  374. # [14:06] * Joins: psy_ (~psy@103.6.159.172)
  375. # [14:06] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1055533
  376. # [14:06] <annevk> Already landed in Firefox :-)
  377. # [14:06] * Joins: payman (~payman@ip-200.t2.se.opera.com)
  378. # [14:06] <espadrine_> annevk: good! (although for some reason I can't use IPv6 URLs currently, even for localhost)
  379. # [14:07] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-1eiz.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net)
  380. # [14:09] * Joins: tj_vantoll (~Adium@2601:4:5380:2ec:fd53:9b68:3721:2a13)
  381. # [14:11] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaaba-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
  382. # [14:12] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.188) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  383. # [14:19] * Quits: richt (~richt@c83-248-244-196.bredband.comhem.se) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  384. # [14:25] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.179)
  385. # [14:25] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@nata206.ugent.be) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  386. # [14:26] * Quits: tripu (~tripu@p29026-ipngn8101marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) (Quit: Leaving)
  387. # [14:27] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaaba-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  388. # [14:30] * Joins: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@nata206.ugent.be)
  389. # [14:30] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@94.234.170.169)
  390. # [14:31] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  391. # [14:31] * Joins: Lachy__ (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
  392. # [14:32] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.179) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  393. # [14:32] * Joins: richt (~richt@c83-248-244-196.bredband.comhem.se)
  394. # [14:34] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.38)
  395. # [14:35] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@94.234.170.169) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  396. # [14:35] * Quits: Lachy__ (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Client Quit)
  397. # [14:40] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189) (Remote host closed the connection)
  398. # [14:42] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
  399. # [14:46] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs78246079.pp.htv.fi)
  400. # [14:47] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189)
  401. # [14:59] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  402. # [15:04] * Quits: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  403. # [15:16] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@5.153.233.26) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  404. # [15:16] * Joins: mpt (~mpt@canonical/mpt)
  405. # [15:25] * Joins: tommyliu_ (~tommyliu@li568-208.members.linode.com)
  406. # [15:26] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  407. # [15:27] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@li568-208.members.linode.com)
  408. # [15:27] * Quits: tommyliu_ (~tommyliu@li568-208.members.linode.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  409. # [15:28] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@199.71.174.202)
  410. # [15:28] * Joins: mven (~textual@32.97.110.57)
  411. # [15:28] * Joins: tommyliu_ (~tommyliu@23.228.209.28)
  412. # [15:30] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com)
  413. # [15:30] * Joins: tommyli__ (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189)
  414. # [15:32] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@li568-208.members.linode.com) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  415. # [15:34] * Quits: tommyliu_ (~tommyliu@23.228.209.28) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  416. # [15:34] <annevk> Thanks for the reply hsivonen
  417. # [15:34] <annevk> will keep the bug open
  418. # [15:35] * Joins: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  419. # [15:47] * Joins: eBureau (~Bruno@18-45-231-201.fibertel.com.ar)
  420. # [15:50] * Quits: sarri (~sari@p50995cae.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  421. # [15:52] * Joins: sarri (~sari@p50995cae.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  422. # [15:53] * Quits: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de) (Quit: davidyezsetz)
  423. # [15:58] * Joins: Maurice (copyman@unaffiliated/maurice)
  424. # [15:58] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-1eiz.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net) (Quit: จรลี จรลา)
  425. # [15:59] <Domenic> I'm really excited about the possibility of URL getting solid tests + reference implementation that conform line-by-line with the spec. Unsure if peg.js is the right road to that, but it seems like a big win for the spec in general.
  426. # [16:01] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@17.202.49.94)
  427. # [16:09] <annevk> I'm a bit dismayed by Sam only looking at tests and not the original spec
  428. # [16:09] * Quits: Ms2ger (~Ms2ger@nata206.ugent.be) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  429. # [16:09] <annevk> But yeah, hopefully enough iteration will get us someplace nice
  430. # [16:17] <Domenic> Yeah I mean ideally there would be a line-by-line reference implementation of the original spec too
  431. # [16:17] <Domenic> I think you had one at some point but maybe didn't keep it updated?
  432. # [16:17] <annevk> Domenic: https://github.com/Polymer/url
  433. # [16:18] <Domenic> not many algorithm changes since january
  434. # [16:18] <annevk> Domenic: yeah, not sure it's maintained :/
  435. # [16:18] <annevk> Domenic: it's easy enough to pick up again though
  436. # [16:19] <annevk> Domenic: I'm mostly waiting for browsers to pick up the pace again
  437. # [16:19] <Domenic> annevk: yeah fair
  438. # [16:19] <annevk> Someone is landing patches making Firefox match it a bit better
  439. # [16:19] <annevk> E.g. doing percent-decoding for host names
  440. # [16:20] <annevk> But it's hard since everything is a compat hazard
  441. # [16:20] * Quits: calvaris (~calvaris@fanzine.igalia.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  442. # [16:21] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-1eiz.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net)
  443. # [16:21] <Domenic> i mean ideally aligning with some other browser would not be a compat hazard
  444. # [16:22] <Domenic> so if you avoid the cases where no browser aligns with the spec (and ideally fix the spec to align with at least one browser) then the patch should be acceptable
  445. # [16:23] <annevk> I don't think it's that simple. The specification aligns with one browser already as far as I know. However, for things like URL fragments there's a bunch of sniffing going on in JavaScript
  446. # [16:23] <annevk> Presumably for some path and query handling as well
  447. # [16:23] <Domenic> :(
  448. # [16:24] <annevk> And all that sniffing is happening because we haven't had interoperable parsing... It's a nice circle
  449. # [16:26] * Joins: calvaris (~calvaris@fanzine.igalia.com)
  450. # [16:26] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@38.88.11.131)
  451. # [16:26] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@38.88.11.131) (Changing host)
  452. # [16:26] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman)
  453. # [16:28] * Joins: jsx (uid48919@fsf/intern/jsx)
  454. # [16:34] * Quits: eBureau (~Bruno@18-45-231-201.fibertel.com.ar) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  455. # [16:35] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@50-0-248-60.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com)
  456. # [16:36] * Joins: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@101.60.25.193)
  457. # [16:42] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  458. # [16:44] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.38) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  459. # [16:44] <annevk> hsivonen: do you think the Encoding Standard needs to change around gb18030?
  460. # [16:44] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa26-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
  461. # [16:44] * Quits: BigBangUDR (~Thunderbi@101.60.25.193) (Quit: BigBangUDR)
  462. # [16:45] <annevk> hsivonen: I know Gecko still keeps a distinction
  463. # [16:45] * Joins: thinkxl (~thinkxl@2602:30a:c05b:5999:e4bb:a8b9:3c54:7853)
  464. # [16:46] * Joins: josemanuel (~josemanue@17.Red-88-26-151.staticIP.rima-tde.net)
  465. # [16:51] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  466. # [16:55] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  467. # [17:03] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman) (Quit: Leaving.)
  468. # [17:04] * Joins: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de)
  469. # [17:05] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa26-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  470. # [17:05] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.38)
  471. # [17:08] * Quits: laurensclaessen (~laurenscl@91.183.84.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
  472. # [17:10] * Quits: calvaris (~calvaris@fanzine.igalia.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  473. # [17:10] * Joins: estellevw (~estellevw@173-228-112-249.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com)
  474. # [17:11] * Joins: zdobersek (~zan@tsn85-159-237-4.dyn.nltelcom.net)
  475. # [17:13] * Joins: scrollback (scrollback@conference/jsconf/x-jcpfxevctcvfopvl)
  476. # [17:13] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@94.234.170.38) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  477. # [17:13] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa26-74736162.cust.telenor.se)
  478. # [17:14] * Joins: laurensclaessen (~laurenscl@91.183.84.141)
  479. # [17:16] * Joins: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  480. # [17:16] * Quits: davidyezsetz (~davidyezs@mail1.powerflasher.de) (Quit: davidyezsetz)
  481. # [17:16] * Joins: calvaris (~calvaris@fanzine.igalia.com)
  482. # [17:19] <SimonSapin> espadrine_: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26431
  483. # [17:20] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@c-5eeaaa26-74736162.cust.telenor.se) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  484. # [17:20] <espadrine_> SimonSapin: thanks!
  485. # [17:20] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.139.213) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  486. # [17:20] * Joins: erlehmann_ (~erlehmann@82.113.99.215)
  487. # [17:23] * erlehmann_ is now known as erlehmann
  488. # [17:27] * Joins: proberts_ (~proberts@lon-tc-fw1.lon1.future.net.uk)
  489. # [17:32] * Joins: Lachy__ (~Lachy@tmo-097-167.customers.d1-online.com)
  490. # [17:33] <caitp> would you say that shift-click navigation has a pretty consistent behaviour across user agents?
  491. # [17:33] * Joins: jwalden (~waldo@2620:101:80fc:224:7e7a:91ff:fe25:a5a3)
  492. # [17:33] <annevk> navigation doesn't, so...
  493. # [17:34] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  494. # [17:34] <caitp> particularly the "navigate in a new frame" behaviour
  495. # [17:40] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
  496. # [17:40] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  497. # [17:41] * Quits: zdobersek (~zan@tsn85-159-237-4.dyn.nltelcom.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  498. # [17:42] * Joins: tj_vantoll1 (~Adium@c-98-250-130-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
  499. # [17:43] * Quits: tj_vantoll1 (~Adium@c-98-250-130-237.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
  500. # [17:45] * Quits: tj_vantoll (~Adium@2601:4:5380:2ec:fd53:9b68:3721:2a13) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  501. # [17:48] * Joins: thinkxl_ (~thinkxl@74-95-237-22-Houston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  502. # [17:51] * Quits: thinkxl (~thinkxl@2602:30a:c05b:5999:e4bb:a8b9:3c54:7853) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  503. # [17:53] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@38.88.11.131)
  504. # [17:53] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@38.88.11.131) (Changing host)
  505. # [17:53] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman)
  506. # [17:53] * Quits: Lachy__ (~Lachy@tmo-097-167.customers.d1-online.com) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  507. # [17:53] * thinkxl_ is now known as thinkxl
  508. # [17:53] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2)
  509. # [17:54] * Joins: _ritchie_ (~andrewr@207.41.188.222)
  510. # [17:55] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Quit: Bye)
  511. # [17:56] * Joins: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com)
  512. # [17:58] * Quits: laurensclaessen (~laurenscl@91.183.84.141)
  513. # [17:58] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@c-98-210-159-193.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  514. # [18:00] * Quits: mven (~textual@32.97.110.57) (Remote host closed the connection)
  515. # [18:03] * Joins: mko (~mko@50.240.205.146)
  516. # [18:04] <erlehmann> caitp why the question about shift-click?
  517. # [18:05] <erlehmann> also i navigate using the keyboard (hands hurt if too much touchpad)
  518. # [18:05] <erlehmann> f → follow
  519. # [18:05] <erlehmann> d → follow in new buffer
  520. # [18:05] <erlehmann> some sites hijack text input and make it impossible to navigate away from them
  521. # [18:06] <erlehmann> but my keyboard does have dedicated back and forward keys (thinkpad)
  522. # [18:06] <caitp> if enough browsers want to open shift-clicked links in a new frame, then angularjs should not do any processing on such clicks --- i'm just trying to figure out how big of a problem it is to just abort processing of clicks if shift is pressed
  523. # [18:08] * Joins: thinkxl_ (~thinkxl@2602:30a:c05b:5999:7d42:c291:df0e:6e75)
  524. # [18:08] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  525. # [18:09] * Quits: thinkxl (~thinkxl@74-95-237-22-Houston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  526. # [18:09] <erlehmann> caitp i can test
  527. # [18:10] <erlehmann> caitp how does angular react with keyboard navigation in general?
  528. # [18:10] * Quits: espadrine_ (~ttyl@LMontsouris-656-01-02-84.w80-12.abo.wanadoo.fr) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  529. # [18:11] <erlehmann> caitp chromium opens a new tab on strg+click and a new window on shift+click
  530. # [18:11] <caitp> https://github.com/angular/angular.js/blob/master/src/ng/location.js#L775-L817 like this --- if it thinks it needs to, it will rewrite the url and prevent default
  531. # [18:11] <caitp> but if you're trying to open a link in a new frame, you probably don't want that
  532. # [18:12] <erlehmann> conkeror does nothing on both shift+click and strg+click, but it is a keyboard-focussed non-mainstream browser
  533. # [18:13] <erlehmann> elinks follows links on strg+click, but not on shift+click
  534. # [18:13] <erlehmann> äh
  535. # [18:13] <erlehmann> i have a german keyboard
  536. # [18:13] <erlehmann> strg → ctrl
  537. # [18:13] <erlehmann> links2 follows on both, without opening new tabs or windows
  538. # [18:15] <caitp> supported browsers are basically relatively modern versions of the big 5, so there isn't too much of a worry about those
  539. # [18:15] <erlehmann> netsurf displays a download dialog on shift-click, interesting. ctrl-click makes a new window.
  540. # [18:16] <erlehmann> caitp i wish i had something that describes the tradeoff of compatibility and accessability on one side and developer time on the other side as well as the related “better fast than correct”
  541. # [18:16] <erlehmann> do you know one?
  542. # [18:16] <caitp> unfortunately I don't :(
  543. # [18:17] <erlehmann> iceweasel (unbranded firefox) opens a new window on shift-click and a new tab on ctrl-click.
  544. # [18:17] <erlehmann> exactly the opposite of chromium (unbranded chrome)
  545. # [18:17] <erlehmann> i would let alt and strg alone
  546. # [18:17] <erlehmann> they are already used by access keys after all
  547. # [18:17] <caitp> on mac, in chromium, I get menu with ctrl+click, new tab with meta+click, and new window with shift+click
  548. # [18:18] <erlehmann> and lots of people use the modifiers
  549. # [18:18] <erlehmann> yeah, it is platform specific
  550. # [18:18] <erlehmann> i think any modifier should stop click capture
  551. # [18:18] <erlehmann> or rather, this should not be measured in clicks
  552. # [18:18] <erlehmann> i cannot copy from google homepage the links anymore
  553. # [18:18] <erlehmann> because they apparently get rewritten on click or something
  554. # [18:18] <caitp> it's why it's really too bad we don't have more information from UI Events, I really liked my idea for event "roles" to indicate what the user agent thinks you're trying to do
  555. # [18:18] <erlehmann> so if i never „click“, i get google tracking garbage
  556. # [18:19] <erlehmann> i think less information would be the way to go here
  557. # [18:19] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  558. # [18:19] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194)
  559. # [18:19] <erlehmann> write your scripts interface-agnostic
  560. # [18:19] <erlehmann> i write my css interface-agnostic as well
  561. # [18:19] <erlehmann> no click events and so on
  562. # [18:19] <erlehmann> progressive enhancement instead of graceful degradation
  563. # [18:19] <erlehmann> (stopping click procssing in corner cases is degradation)
  564. # [18:20] <caitp> I think something like `if (event.role !== "navigate") return;` is a lot more interface-agnostic than worrying about different combinations of special keys
  565. # [18:20] <caitp> or which button is clicked
  566. # [18:21] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-1eiz.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  567. # [18:21] <erlehmann> yeah, but you are advocating adding complexity to handle problems
  568. # [18:21] <erlehmann> i am advocating removing complexity
  569. # [18:21] <caitp> I'm not sure anyone has figured out how to really make UI "simple"
  570. # [18:21] <erlehmann> i think different
  571. # [18:22] <erlehmann> for example, i follow the rule that every state has to have a url.
  572. # [18:23] <erlehmann> every state i could care about. no exceptions.
  573. # [18:23] <erlehmann> this means i purposefully ignore stuff that i would not cram into the url
  574. # [18:23] <erlehmann> no tracking
  575. # [18:23] <erlehmann> and no scroll position dependent events or whatever
  576. # [18:23] <erlehmann> it makes life vastly easier and the result easier to reason about
  577. # [18:24] <erlehmann> but of course many people i know ask „but how do i do infinite scrolling then“ or similar stuff
  578. # [18:24] <erlehmann> and i say “you don't. it breaks user expectations about finite documents and scrollbars.”
  579. # [18:24] <erlehmann> i think the key to successful UI is restricting common developers, not giving them more power.
  580. # [18:24] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74) (Remote host closed the connection)
  581. # [18:25] <caitp> yeah, so this is the "documents are not applications" line of thinking, and it makes sense, but I work on an application framework, not a document framework, and at some point someone decided that the web is a great platform for applications
  582. # [18:25] <erlehmann> see podcasts and feed readers. because the format is so limited, they had quite a competition.
  583. # [18:25] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74)
  584. # [18:25] <erlehmann> caitp you can have applications. it is only that you need to manage state very carefully.
  585. # [18:26] <erlehmann> i think that if you manage to avoid hidden state, you manage to avoid LOTS of user frustration
  586. # [18:26] <caitp> it's not even a case of hidden state though, it literally is just a URL
  587. # [18:26] <erlehmann> on a related note, avoid state explosion.
  588. # [18:27] * Joins: eBureau (~Bruno@18-45-231-201.fibertel.com.ar)
  589. # [18:27] <caitp> it's just that for older browsers it's necessary to rewrite the URL, and then you've got this whole virtual URL ugly thing, and there's a need to avoid doing the wrong thing if you aren't supposed to actually navigate
  590. # [18:27] <erlehmann> the url for a long time (before „we break your back button with impunity“ crap) set user interactions
  591. # [18:27] <erlehmann> caitp i have written about that topic http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/posts/hidden-state.xml
  592. # [18:27] <caitp> oh yes, I sympathize
  593. # [18:27] <caitp> history api helps a lot with this, although it's still broken in a lot of cases
  594. # [18:27] <erlehmann> i also recommend the writings of olia lialina
  595. # [18:28] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@81.143.60.194) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  596. # [18:29] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@78.109.80.74) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  597. # [18:30] <erlehmann> caitp almost all of the harder problems i see on the web, regardless if with wep apps or web pages or whatever, are about state and state transitions. users cannot always articulate it, but i think berners-lee really hit home with URLs.
  598. # [18:30] <erlehmann> if web apps are the applications, the url bar is the command line of the web
  599. # [18:31] <erlehmann> and if your web app carefully manages its state, that means you can go to every state with the command line
  600. # [18:31] <erlehmann> something that is impossible in most, if not all, other systems
  601. # [18:31] * Quits: cbr (~cbr@145.36.150.83.chzhher77.rootnet.ch) (Quit: cbr)
  602. # [18:32] <erlehmann> whenever you break that expectation, you are in for a world of hurt. like a guy i know who had a special cookie-re-issuing function on hitting the back button after some action that should have been a POST (but was a GET with a cookie issued)
  603. # [18:32] <caitp> sure, but the URL isn't the only way of inputting commands into this system --- user interaction also is
  604. # [18:33] <caitp> so if you ahve a user interaction which sometimes wants to change the state, and sometimes wants to open a new browsing context with its own state, you have to know which one to do
  605. # [18:33] <caitp> that user action is a click
  606. # [18:34] * thinkxl_ is now known as thinkxl
  607. # [18:34] <erlehmann> if you have a click system
  608. # [18:34] <erlehmann> or a touch
  609. # [18:34] * Joins: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-1eiz.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net)
  610. # [18:34] <erlehmann> if you have a touch system
  611. # [18:34] <erlehmann> or a back button or a f or the enter button or whatever
  612. # [18:35] <erlehmann> a programmer that is sure xe will never get RSI is probably either arrogant or genetically superior
  613. # [18:36] <erlehmann> (i use keyboard browsing because of hands)
  614. # [18:36] <caitp> yeah, click isn't always available, this is true
  615. # [18:38] <erlehmann> the focus on click reminds me of pre-mobile days
  616. # [18:39] <erlehmann> where when one was saying “you should not rely on clicking as user interaction, do not use hover states etc.” people would respond “are you using a text browser? get with the times”
  617. # [18:40] <erlehmann> you were saying “big five” and i suspect you mean firefox, chrome, safari, ie and one other that i don't know. but don't forget that opera was a common browser once too!
  618. # [18:40] <boogyman> erlehmann: and you can say, not everyone in the world can see or hear.
  619. # [18:40] <erlehmann> so compatibility is really hampered by that stuff
  620. # [18:40] * Quits: pfefferle (~pfefferle@p4FDCC32A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  621. # [18:40] <erlehmann> boogyman yes, which is why i focus on progressive enhancement and not graceful degradation.
  622. # [18:40] <boogyman> also, there are many times where your users are not even people.
  623. # [18:41] <erlehmann> yes, which is why i focus on proper semantics and outlines.
  624. # [18:41] * Joins: abinader (sid21713@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tkismrdiyskkrsfy)
  625. # [18:41] <erlehmann> and test everything with curl. if that is too complicated, my interface is shit.
  626. # [18:42] <erlehmann> a friend of mine made something that could literally not tested with curl, because his “REST API” made each call consist of two calls, the first to grab the session
  627. # [18:42] <erlehmann> needless to say, he was the only user of his API
  628. # [18:43] <caitp> that doesn't sound very restful
  629. # [18:44] <boogyman> In my opinion that's okay if the identifier for that session is part of the authentication/authorization mechanism.
  630. # [18:45] <erlehmann> i have never seen a use case where something involving sessions could not be done without sessions, except for hiding the state of the system from the user.
  631. # [18:45] <erlehmann> like tracking cookies.
  632. # [18:45] * Joins: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  633. # [18:45] * Joins: ap (~ap@17.202.44.214)
  634. # [18:45] <boogyman> erlehmann: access control
  635. # [18:46] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@50-0-248-60.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  636. # [18:47] <erlehmann> boogyman RESTful access control does not need sessions. just send credentials on every request. in before “it is in secure” – yes, not using transport encryption is insecure.
  637. # [18:47] <erlehmann> i think stateless systems vs. stateful systems have the same problem as functional programming vs. imperative programming. one is vastly easier to grasp for many and works well enough for 80% of the use cases.
  638. # [18:48] <boogyman> but, there are many HTTP based API's that claim to adhere to RESTful principles, when really, they are just HTTP based.
  639. # [18:49] <erlehmann> indeed
  640. # [18:50] <Domenic> annevk: in the course of writing this email I've mostly convinced myself that overloading body to allow a function is the least-bad option.
  641. # [18:53] <erlehmann> what
  642. # [18:53] <erlehmann> Domenic explain
  643. # [18:56] <annevk> heh
  644. # [18:58] <erlehmann> boogyman richardson maturity model
  645. # [18:58] <erlehmann> boogyman read http://martinfowler.com/articles/richardsonMaturityModel.html
  646. # [18:59] <boogyman> erlehmann: ?
  647. # [19:00] <erlehmann> boogyman it is a good overview regarding levels of RESTfulness
  648. # [19:00] <boogyman> okay. I'll keep that in my mind when I'm referring others.
  649. # [19:05] <erlehmann> caitp maybe one could manage application state easier with checking querySelectorAll, :target and :focus
  650. # [19:05] <erlehmann> leverage the browser state machine!
  651. # [19:05] * Quits: josemanuel (~josemanue@17.Red-88-26-151.staticIP.rima-tde.net) (Quit: Saliendo)
  652. # [19:07] * Joins: espadrine_ (~ttyl@AMontsouris-158-1-88-42.w90-2.abo.wanadoo.fr)
  653. # [19:09] * Quits: emerson (~emerson@unaffiliated/emerson) (Quit: Reconnecting)
  654. # [19:09] * Joins: emerson (~emerson@emersonveenstra.net)
  655. # [19:10] * emerson is now known as Guest11379
  656. # [19:15] * Quits: _ritchie_ (~andrewr@207.41.188.222) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  657. # [19:15] * Quits: bnicholson (~bnicholso@24.130.60.241) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  658. # [19:16] * Joins: _ritchie_ (~andrewr@207.41.188.212)
  659. # [19:16] * Joins: gavinc (~gavin@98b8-be09-bb8e-9855-030d-4002-3420-2062.6rd.ip6.sonic.net)
  660. # [19:19] * Quits: proberts_ (~proberts@lon-tc-fw1.lon1.future.net.uk) (Quit: proberts_)
  661. # [19:23] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  662. # [19:36] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@2a01:e34:ed05:d180:540f:79d7:b38f:297c)
  663. # [19:38] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@2a01:e34:ed05:d180:540f:79d7:b38f:297c) (Remote host closed the connection)
  664. # [19:38] * Joins: dbaron (~dbaron@2620:101:80fb:224:a10e:48ff:e9ab:ae43)
  665. # [19:42] * Joins: bnicholson (~bnicholso@2620:101:80fc:224:7e7a:91ff:fe25:a5c6)
  666. # [19:51] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman) (Quit: Leaving.)
  667. # [19:53] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@38.88.11.131)
  668. # [19:53] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@38.88.11.131) (Changing host)
  669. # [19:53] * Joins: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman)
  670. # [20:04] <annevk> From the stuff I work on, the Encoding Standard seems to approach stability the fastest, while I would have expected it to take a very long time...
  671. # [20:04] <annevk> Getting to the point of only a few outstanding issues
  672. # [20:05] <Hixie> am i right that all Function objects you create in JS (i.e. those that aren't weird things we provide in the web api) have a [[Construct]] ?
  673. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Yeah.
  674. # [20:06] <Hixie> k, thanks
  675. # [20:07] <Hixie> is it also always true that, assuming you haven't fiddled with it, if F.prototype == O, O.constructor == F?
  676. # [20:08] <caitp> no
  677. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> Multiple functions can share a prototype.
  678. # [20:09] * Joins: woebtz (~woebtz@cpe-172-250-93-102.socal.res.rr.com)
  679. # [20:13] <Hixie> so what does O.constructor return?
  680. # [20:14] <caitp> if B extends A, `new B`'s constructor is B, but if you walk up the prototype chain, you'll run into an object whose constructor is A
  681. # [20:14] <Hixie> by "constructor" you mean "value of the constructor property"?
  682. # [20:14] <caitp> yes
  683. # [20:19] <Hixie> class { constructor () { a() } foo() { b() } } returns a Function that calls a() with a .prototype that has one member 'foo' that is a function that calls b(), and one member constructor that points to the Function that calls a()?
  684. # [20:20] <Hixie> so i can do the same with var q = { foo: function foo() { b() } }; var f = function() { a() }; f.prototype = q; q.constructor = f; ?
  685. # [20:20] <Hixie> are those distinguishable in any way?
  686. # [20:23] <caitp> well, they would be slightly different, but they'd basically behave the same
  687. # [20:23] <Hixie> how would they be different?
  688. # [20:24] <caitp> q would be missing a constructor property, for one
  689. # [20:24] * Joins: mven (~textual@32.97.110.57)
  690. # [20:24] <Hixie> "q.constructor = f;" doesn't work?
  691. # [20:24] <caitp> oh, I must have missed that
  692. # [20:24] <Hixie> k
  693. # [20:24] <caitp> it does work, but is still slightly different, since assignment will set up the property descriptor differently
  694. # [20:25] <caitp> observable difference but you'd have to be pretty nitpicky to observe it
  695. # [20:28] <Hixie> i should use defineProperty instead of assignment?
  696. # [20:29] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.245.26.215)
  697. # [20:29] <caitp> it would be a data property which is not enumerable, is writable and configurable
  698. # [20:30] <caitp> actually, it looks like there are cases in the spec where it's not writable/configurable
  699. # [20:31] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.245.26.215) (Client Quit)
  700. # [20:31] <Hixie> how about: var q = { foo: function foo() { b() } }; var f = function() { a() }; Object.setPrototypeOf(f, q); Object.defineProperty(q, 'constructor', { value: f, writable:true,enumerable:false,configurable:true });
  701. # [20:31] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
  702. # [20:31] <Hixie> is that distinguishable?
  703. # [20:32] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  704. # [20:32] <hsivonen> annevk: no idea about the actual needs re gbk
  705. # [20:33] <caitp> setPrototypeOf will change __proto__ or the internal prototype, not `prototype`
  706. # [20:33] <annevk> hsivonen: okay, since Firefox has this split decoder / encoder setup and the spec doesn't and there's no open bug... I guess I should file a bug to at least track it
  707. # [20:33] <annevk> hsivonen: against the spec that is
  708. # [20:33] <hsivonen> annevk: makes sense
  709. # [20:35] <Hixie> caitp: oh right
  710. # [20:35] * Quits: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  711. # [20:36] * Joins: jacobolus (~jacobolus@70-36-196-50.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com)
  712. # [20:36] <Hixie> how about: var q = { foo: function foo() { b() } }; var f = function() { a() }; Object.defineProperty(f, 'property', { value: q, writable:false,enumerable:false,configurable:false }); Object.defineProperty(q, 'constructor', { value: f, writable:true,enumerable:false,configurable:true }); ?
  713. # [20:36] <Hixie> (and why on earth do those properties have different settings)
  714. # [20:38] * Joins: shepazu (~shepazu@108-70-132-46.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net)
  715. # [20:39] <annevk> hsivonen: it seems we should still have a Firefox bug on making them use the same table so we can save memory
  716. # [20:39] <annevk> hsivonen: I can file that too if you agree
  717. # [20:40] * Quits: calvaris (~calvaris@fanzine.igalia.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  718. # [20:42] <Hixie> can you tell in a constructor if you were called with "new" or not?
  719. # [20:43] <caitp> Hixie: sort of
  720. # [20:44] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
  721. # [20:44] <caitp> the way people usually use is `function Constructor() { 'use strict'; if (!this) { /* function was just called normally */ }`
  722. # [20:45] <caitp> or `if (!(this instanceof Constructor)) return new Constructor(...)` --- but those methods are fallible
  723. # [20:46] * Quits: tommyli__ (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189) (Remote host closed the connection)
  724. # [20:47] <Hixie> huh, there really isn't a way, it looks like
  725. # [20:47] <Hixie> that's odd
  726. # [20:47] <caitp> each engine has their internal ways of figuring out, but none exposed publicly
  727. # [20:49] <annevk> hsivonen: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=711101 removing IBM encodings is fixed, no?
  728. # [20:51] * Joins: thinkxl_ (~thinkxl@74-95-237-22-Houston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
  729. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it's always possible to trick the "was I called with new?" tests by passing things in via .call(). There's no language-provided way to tell.
  730. # [20:52] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@17.202.49.94) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  731. # [20:52] <TabAtkins> I usually use caitp's second test.
  732. # [20:52] * Joins: darobin (~darobin@2a01:e34:ed05:d180:6939:904f:ffb7:1a33)
  733. # [20:53] * Quits: thinkxl (~thinkxl@2602:30a:c05b:5999:7d42:c291:df0e:6e75) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  734. # [20:55] <caitp> https://esdiscuss.org/topic/new-instantiation-design-alternatives I think there were some ideas tossed around about providing a way to know here
  735. # [20:55] <caitp> but I can't remember, and it was a long thread
  736. # [20:56] * Quits: darobin (~darobin@2a01:e34:ed05:d180:6939:904f:ffb7:1a33) (Remote host closed the connection)
  737. # [20:56] * Joins: rubys (~rubys@cpe-098-027-051-253.nc.res.rr.com)
  738. # [20:57] <Hixie> if it can be faked, there's not much point checking at all, except for like an assert() or something
  739. # [20:57] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@17.245.31.127)
  740. # [20:58] * Joins: Mso150 (~ctlM@80.83.239.82)
  741. # [21:00] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Main use-case for checking is to allow the function to be called with or without "new".
  742. # [21:00] * Quits: sicking (~sicking@c-98-210-159-193.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: sicking)
  743. # [21:00] <Hixie> why would you want that?
  744. # [21:01] <caitp> which is the case for some builtins
  745. # [21:01] <TabAtkins> ...so you can call it without "new"?
  746. # [21:01] <caitp> new String() and String() do different things
  747. # [21:01] <Hixie> that seems like a very confusing API
  748. # [21:01] <TabAtkins> One's a constructor, one's a converter.
  749. # [21:01] <caitp> lots of bad decisions were made with JS, but most of them were made when I was less than 4 feet tall
  750. # [21:02] <TabAtkins> Also, sometimes to allow you to construct an object without "new".
  751. # [21:02] <caitp> so, it was bound to happen
  752. # [21:02] <TabAtkins> Like if you have a very simple object that's going to get constructed a lot, the extra noise of "new " can get distracting.
  753. # [21:04] <TabAtkins> For example, my bignum class at https://github.com/tabatkins/bignum would be much harder to use if you had to say "new Z(5).add(new Z(6))" all the time.
  754. # [21:04] <TabAtkins> It's bad enough that you have to do "Z(5).add(Z(6))", because we dont' have operator overloading yet.
  755. # [21:04] <Hixie> supporting both seems like a very confusing API to me, but i guess opinions may vary :-)
  756. # [21:05] <TabAtkins> Disallowing "new" for a constructor would be super-confusing as a consistency break.
  757. # [21:06] <TabAtkins> Not to mention feeling really perverse.
  758. # [21:06] <annevk> I thought new-style would require it to allow subclassing, but I guess that might be changed
  759. # [21:07] <annevk> Bignums should just be part of the language
  760. # [21:07] * thinkxl_ is now known as thinkxl
  761. # [21:08] <TabAtkins> annevk: Well, yes, of course they should be. That's not the point of my example. ^_^
  762. # [21:08] * Quits: boogyman (~boogyman@pdpc/supporter/professional/boogyman) (Quit: Leaving.)
  763. # [21:17] * Joins: Mso150_l (~ctlM@80.83.239.95)
  764. # [21:19] * Quits: Mso150 (~ctlM@80.83.239.82) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  765. # [21:21] * Joins: Mso150_l_m (~ctlM@217.118.64.43)
  766. # [21:22] * Quits: Mso150_l (~ctlM@80.83.239.95) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  767. # [21:25] * Quits: Mso150_l_m (~ctlM@217.118.64.43) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  768. # [21:29] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
  769. # [21:32] * Quits: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141) (Remote host closed the connection)
  770. # [21:32] * Joins: hasather (~hasather@80.91.33.141)
  771. # [21:35] * Joins: Mso150 (~ctlM@80.83.239.26)
  772. # [21:37] * Quits: markkes (~markkes@62.207.90.201) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  773. # [21:40] * Quits: Mso150 (~ctlM@80.83.239.26) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  774. # [21:45] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@17.245.31.127) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  775. # [21:48] * Quits: roc (~chatzilla@121-99-87-47.bng1.tvc.orcon.net.nz) (Remote host closed the connection)
  776. # [21:53] * Joins: Mso150 (~ctlM@80.83.239.26)
  777. # [21:54] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  778. # [21:59] * Joins: eric_carlson (~ericc@17.202.49.94)
  779. # [22:00] <Hixie> anyone know how custom elements work? i'm trying to figure out how/whether browsers are supposed to avoid huge bloat from every custom element having its own copy of style
  780. # [22:01] * Guest11379 is now known as emerson
  781. # [22:01] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  782. # [22:01] * emerson is now known as Guest78560
  783. # [22:02] <annevk> Hixie: Domenic prolly does
  784. # [22:02] * Quits: Guest78560 (~emerson@emersonveenstra.net) (Changing host)
  785. # [22:02] * Joins: Guest78560 (~emerson@unaffiliated/emerson)
  786. # [22:02] <Hixie> he's probably at blinkon
  787. # [22:02] * Guest78560 is now known as emerson
  788. # [22:03] * Quits: jsx (uid48919@fsf/intern/jsx) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  789. # [22:03] <annevk> Hixie: bz maybe
  790. # [22:04] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  791. # [22:04] * Quits: Mso150 (~ctlM@80.83.239.26) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
  792. # [22:04] * Joins: Mso150 (~ctlM@80.83.238.4)
  793. # [22:05] * Quits: woebtz (~woebtz@cpe-172-250-93-102.socal.res.rr.com)
  794. # [22:05] * Quits: thinkxl (~thinkxl@74-95-237-22-Houston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: (null))
  795. # [22:06] * Joins: woebtz (~woebtz@cpe-172-250-93-102.socal.res.rr.com)
  796. # [22:07] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no)
  797. # [22:08] <caitp> what do you mean by "own copy of style"?
  798. # [22:08] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  799. # [22:09] * Quits: rubys (~rubys@cpe-098-027-051-253.nc.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  800. # [22:09] * Joins: thinkxl (~thinkxl@2602:30a:c05b:5999:dc64:b3ec:c405:3dc)
  801. # [22:11] <Hixie> i mean its own <style> element, which has to be individually parsed, turned into internal style objects, etc
  802. # [22:11] * Joins: markkes (~markkes@62.207.90.201)
  803. # [22:12] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.245.26.57)
  804. # [22:14] * Quits: woebtz (~woebtz@cpe-172-250-93-102.socal.res.rr.com)
  805. # [22:14] * Joins: ambv (~ambv@206.108.217.134)
  806. # [22:15] * Quits: ambv (~ambv@206.108.217.134) (Client Quit)
  807. # [22:15] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
  808. # [22:15] * Joins: ambv (~ambv@206.108.217.134)
  809. # [22:17] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  810. # [22:20] <caitp> well there's a concept of rare data for a lot of these constructs, so you would have to have a pretty complicated setup to really see it get bad, hopefully
  811. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> There's deduping involved.
  812. # [22:24] <TabAtkins> (I don't know details.)
  813. # [22:27] <caitp> in core/dom/shadow you have ShadowRootRareData which owns a StyleSheetList pointer which may or may not be allocated, raredata itself may or may not be allocated, an element's CSSStyleDeclaration may or may not be allocated, different CSS properties may or may not be allocated, etc etc etc.
  814. # [22:27] <caitp> trading complexity for memory cost
  815. # [22:29] <caitp> but i'll repeat tab, I don't know the details in these cases --- I think on average the cost is probably pretty minimal
  816. # [22:30] * Joins: roc (~chatzilla@203.192.141.163)
  817. # [22:30] <Hixie> apparently the style element's textContent is hashed and looked up somehow so that the style work is all shared
  818. # [22:30] <Hixie> at least in chrome
  819. # [22:30] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  820. # [22:33] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.245.26.57) (Quit: weinig)
  821. # [22:43] * Quits: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-yegdoxcjyzbpdymq) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  822. # [22:43] * Joins: jochen__ (jochen@nat/google/x-kyjpdheqtcbbjptm)
  823. # [22:59] * Joins: Smylers (~smylers@host86-147-46-136.range86-147.btcentralplus.com)
  824. # [23:02] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@82.113.99.215) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  825. # [23:03] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  826. # [23:05] * Joins: hasather_ (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no)
  827. # [23:09] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  828. # [23:09] * Quits: eBureau (~Bruno@18-45-231-201.fibertel.com.ar) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  829. # [23:15] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@89.204.137.132)
  830. # [23:15] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189)
  831. # [23:17] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189) (Remote host closed the connection)
  832. # [23:21] * Quits: plutoniix (~plutoniix@node-1eiz.pool-101-108.dynamic.totbb.net) (Quit: จรลี จรลา)
  833. # [23:21] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.245.26.57)
  834. # [23:27] * Quits: Maurice (copyman@unaffiliated/maurice)
  835. # [23:33] * Quits: eric_carlson (~ericc@17.202.49.94) (Quit: eric_carlson)
  836. # [23:46] * Quits: smaug____ (~chatzilla@cs78246079.pp.htv.fi) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  837. # [23:51] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189)
  838. # [23:52] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189) (Remote host closed the connection)
  839. # [23:53] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189)
  840. # [23:55] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189) (Remote host closed the connection)
  841. # [23:56] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189)
  842. # [23:56] * Quits: Smylers (~smylers@host86-147-46-136.range86-147.btcentralplus.com) (Quit: Leaving.)
  843. # [23:58] * Quits: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189) (Remote host closed the connection)
  844. # [23:59] * Joins: tommyliu (~tommyliu@183.37.185.189)
  845. # Session Close: Wed Nov 05 00:00:00 2014

Previous day, Next day