/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-11-06 / end

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# Session Start: Thu Nov 06 00:00:00 2014
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [01:17] <TabAtkins> Can someone point me at a spec using ReSpec? Wanna verify something before I copy it.
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# [02:05] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/default/webdriver-spec.html is one
# [02:06] <TabAtkins> Cool, thanks.
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# [02:11] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: that's using an outdated version. Dunno if it matters for what you need, but I think https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/default/media-source/media-source-respec.html is using something newer
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# [09:44] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/3063 https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/3076 https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/3077
# [09:45] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, did I see that event.ports pr before, or was that another one?
# [09:46] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: dunno? haven't seen any other pr touching that file
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# [10:08] <annevk> http://www.dreamhoststatus.com/2014/11/04/upgrading-187-shared-web-hosting-servers-to-ubuntu-12-04-precise-november-8th-8pm-2am-pst/ Hopefully WHATWG is on one of those
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# [10:35] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: thank you
# [10:35] <Ms2ger> Np
# [10:36] <Ms2ger> And thank you :)
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# [14:49] <annevk> While trying to create a new mapping table I run into this rather obscure bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1094804
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# [14:56] <frivoal> *.whatwg.org is in my firefox's force TLS list. Not sure how it got there, but if this is something that is pushed remotely, this is a problem as lists.whathwg.org is not served over https
# [14:56] <Ms2ger> Indeed
# [14:57] <Ms2ger> The archives are available at lists.w3.org
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# [14:59] <frivoal> Yep, found them. But I was signing up for the mailing list, and trying to confirm by visiting the link (rather than replying to the mail), and that can only be done on lists.whatwg.org (afaik)
# [15:00] <Ms2ger> I've heard that you can email somewhere
# [15:00] <Ms2ger> It sucks, but it's apparently impossible to make dreamhost serve that over https
# [15:01] <frivoal> found how I got the header (maybe that's obvious, but it wasn't to me). go to http://whatwg.org, get a 301 to https://whatwg.org which has the following http header
# [15:01] <frivoal> Strict-Transport-Security:max-age=31556900; includesubdomains; preload
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# [15:02] <frivoal> if we can't actually serve all domains on https, maybe this header shouldn't be served
# [15:02] <Ms2ger> Already been considered and rejected, sorry :)
# [15:02] <frivoal> :)
# [15:03] <frivoal> oh well, I am signed up now, so I'm fine, but this is pretty noob hostile
# [15:04] <Ms2ger> I don't disagree
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# [15:06] <frivoal> Even if dreamhost can't serve mailman over https, it would be good to get them to serve something there.
# [15:06] <annevk> frivoal: it's either that header or https://hstspreload.appspot.com/
# [15:09] <frivoal> probably not https://hstspreload.appspot.com/, since accessing the site on my wife's firefox (which hadn't visited http://whatwg.org) worked fine.
# [15:09] <annevk> But yeah, we need to solve this somehow :-(
# [15:10] <frivoal> alternatively, is it possible to customise the message that is sent to ask people to confirm their registration? Just removing the link from there would have saved me the confusion, as there are instructions on how to confirm by email.
# [15:10] <annevk> Yeah I think that might be possible. Hixie would have to configure it
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# [15:11] <frivoal> the welcome email also has a list lists.whatwg.org, but it is an uninteresting one, so that might not matter
# [15:11] <frivoal> s/list/link/
# [15:12] <frivoal> I'll mail Hixie
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# [15:18] <annevk> ta
# [15:21] <frivoal> "ta"?
# [15:21] <annevk> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ta
# [15:22] <frivoal> TIL
# [15:22] <frivoal> mail sent
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# [15:45] <pikaren> why doesnt whatwg merge with w3c
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# [16:06] <boogyman> pikaren: politics
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# [16:12] <Domenic> pikaren: because then we couldn't work according to https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#The_WHATWG_Process
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# [16:24] <annevk> If you just want to get a set of bytes in JavaScript, is there no simpler way than creating an ArrayBuffer, creating a view upon that, and then setting the bytes?
# [16:26] <Domenic> what does "get a set of bytes" mean? is [123, 111, 159] a set of bytes>?
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# [16:30] <Domenic> annevk: maybe what you're looking for is Uint8Array.from([123, 111, 159]).buffer ?
# [16:30] <annevk> Domenic: yeah, I wonder if that's implemented
# [16:30] <Domenic> doesn't seem to be
# [16:31] <Domenic> Uint8Array.of(123, 111, 159).buffer
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# [16:39] <annevk> Domenic: neither
# [16:39] <annevk> TypeError: undefined is not a function in Chrome and TypeError: Uint8Array.of is not a function in Firefox
# [16:39] <Domenic> Polyfillable, I guess
# [16:40] <annevk> Sure, but for playing with TextDecoder this is annoying
# [16:40] <Domenic> Yeah, text decoder is not the most user-friendly API sadly
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# [16:45] <annevk> It's quite easy, no?
# [16:45] <annevk> It's the bytes bit that's fucked
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# [16:46] <annevk> That is to say, if we can make it more friendly I would like to make that happen
# [16:47] <Domenic> I guess you're right
# [16:47] <Domenic> Some statics might be nice though
# [16:48] <Domenic> TextDecoder.decode(bytes/*, "utf-8"*/)
# [16:48] <Domenic> I wonder if you could support any iterable
# [16:49] <annevk> Ah yeah, for the non-streaming case that'd be nice
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# [16:49] <annevk> For the real streaming case we prolly want streams
# [16:49] <Domenic> yeah
# [16:49] <Domenic> I should prototype that out
# [16:50] <annevk> We should probably upgrade the API when streams have landed
# [16:50] <Domenic> Agreed
# [16:50] <annevk> Add streams plus convenience as v2
# [16:50] <Domenic> I should prolyfill them based on the streams polyfill
# [16:50] <JonathanNeal> Yea!
# [16:51] <Domenic> should be really easy actually
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# [16:52] <annevk> https://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Web_Encodings&oldid=3949 5+ years now, but getting close
# [16:53] <annevk> (though only getting close in Firefox and Chrome)
# [16:53] <Domenic> Wow not even under consideration for IE
# [16:53] <JonathanNeal> Event Streams or some other kind?
# [16:54] <Domenic> JonathanNeal: http://streams.spec.whatwg.org/
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# [16:54] <Domenic> (https, rather ... I copied and pasted too fast I guess)
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# [16:56] <Domenic> go upvote https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/257854-internet-explorer-platform/suggestions/6558040-support-the-encoding-api
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# [16:58] <Domenic> https://twitter.com/domenic/status/530388605920116736
# [16:59] <Domenic> annevk: which parts of the API are web-specific? EncodingError DOMException; anything else?
# [17:01] <Domenic> At the next TC39 the Microsoft guy wants to talk about Streams as part of the JS standard library. My position is that JS engines should just start implementing more specs than ECMA-262 and ECMA-402. I plan to point to Streams, Encoding, maybe even URL and Fetch.
# [17:01] <annevk> Domenic: URL and Fetch are generic (up to a point)
# [17:02] <annevk> Domenic: and yeah, EncodingError :/
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# [17:03] <Domenic> I imagine that could be changed especially if it was the price of getting IE on board.
# [17:03] <Domenic> (No idea if that's actually how it'll go down, but it's a possible future.)
# [17:03] <annevk> I'm open to changing it. I don't know if jsbell and whoever implemented it in Gecko want the churn
# [17:03] <Domenic> right yeah, would want to be worth the trouble
# [17:04] <annevk> Search and replace operations through the code base are somewhat costly
# [17:05] <annevk> But yes, if it helps Node.js and Microsoft that would be good
# [17:05] <annevk> Domenic: you should probably again point out that if TC39 wants to treat DOM as a library, they should provide the tools for writing said library (IDL)
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# [17:06] <annevk> Domenic: if TC39 helped out with IDL there'd probably be less differences in design approaches
# [17:07] <annevk> Domenic: if JavaScript's own library was written in IDL... well
# [17:07] <Domenic> it's just a big task with unclear gain compared to just paying attention on public-script-coord...
# [17:08] <annevk> I have the feeling that there's quite a few things in IDL TC39 disapproves
# [17:08] <annevk> But have not been marked as such and continue to be getting usage
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# [17:44] <gsnedders> I don't think you can deal with some of the weird legacy stuff in the JS standard library easily
# [17:44] <gsnedders> Though I think proxies make arrays now implementable in pure JS?
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# [18:33] <caitp> a person named NotBobTheBuilder wants links to not be navigable (ie `href` attribute removed) if they contain the attribute `disabled`
# [18:33] <caitp> "web browsers follow the spec and IMO the spec gets this wrong"
# [18:33] <Hixie> there's a bug about that
# [18:34] <caitp> basically "disabled shouldn't just be a form control thing, it should behave more like aria-disabled"
# [18:34] <caitp> can I link them to it?
# [18:34] <Hixie> browser vendors didn't seem against it, but also weren't particularly enthusiastic
# [18:36] <Hixie> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26622 is where it was discussed, looks like it's not a dedicated bug
# [18:41] <caitp> it would be pretty cool, fwiw, if all of the various `aria` attributes had some behaviour merged into the regular html stuff
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# [18:43] <annevk> disabled used to be a global attribute in IE
# [18:44] <annevk> There's bound to be some emails or bugs written by me about that, circa 2005-?
# [18:45] <caitp> if it came between breaking a lot of websites, but making other sites, and all future sites basically accessible by default, or not breaking websites, but not getting accessibility by default, what would you go for
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# [18:48] <boogyman> imo "status quo" is already broken, so as a web-author, I would prefer accessibility by default.
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# [19:01] <annevk> Domenic: most implementers at Gecko keep pointing out web components seems mostly abandoned spec-wise and is broken in implementations once you look at the details
# [19:01] <annevk> Domenic: is Google still putting actual effort into fixing it?
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# [19:02] <proberts_> $('html *').each(function(){$(this).css('animation','spaceboots '+(1+Math.random(1))+'s infinite')})
# [19:02] <caitp> they probably gave some talks about it at blinkon, so they probably haven't given up on it
# [19:02] <caitp> implementation-wise at least
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# [19:04] <caitp> according to the state of blink slides, shadow dom and html imports shipped, so I guess that's an indication that they haven't given up on custom elements entirely
# [19:05] <smaug____> sure, shippen, but behaving against the current specs
# [19:05] <smaug____> shipped
# [19:06] <tantek> shipped, behaving against current specs, unprefixed / unpreffed and in production, not just beta/alpha/dev builds?
# [19:07] <caitp> element.createShadowRoot seems to be available in m38, I don't think I have any experimental stuff flipped on for my stable browser
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# [19:07] <caitp> i'm sure the css behaviour is probably broken
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# [19:08] <caitp> all i'm saying is, if it's shipped, they probably haven't given up on it just yet
# [19:09] <tantek> caitp - presumably they have samples for the DOM and CSS stuff that demonstrates it working?
# [19:09] <tantek> caitp - Chrome ships and kills things. E.g. Google's "Web Intents".
# [19:09] <caitp> yes, I keep up with it
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# [19:13] <annevk> They haven't really been actively improving things though
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# [19:15] <caitp> sure, it's not clear anyone really knows how to make it better, but I think there's a lot of pressure not to kill it off now as so many groups want it
# [19:18] <hober> "not clear anyone really knows how to make it better" doesn't match up with all of the issues raised by other vendors then ignored or WONTFIXed...
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# [19:19] <caitp> maybe they really thought those weren't very good ideas!
# [19:20] <caitp> or something, I dunno, I am talking for other people right now and I can't read their minds
# [19:21] <hober> heh. i'm just saying it's hard to keep spec momentum on a thing you're manifestly unwilling to change based on the feedback you've actually gotten. why would other folks continue giving you feedback?
# [19:22] <tantek> hober, also odd to reject feedback, and then ship something that differs from the spec, without updating the spec
# [19:22] <annevk> hober: actually, we've given a ton of feedback that has simply gone unaddressed
# [19:22] <annevk> hober: is Apple planning on putting resources on it or hoping it dies?
# [19:23] <annevk> Web components feels a bit like abandonware, ship prematurely, then don't bother polishing
# [19:24] <annevk> Allocate resources to focus on some other thing
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# [19:24] <tantek> annevk - are there no google sites/apps that depend on or take advantage of Chrome's web components implementation? e.g. gmail?
# [19:24] <hober> annevk: i think you already know the answer to questions of the form "is apple planning..."
# [19:24] <caitp> they don't depend on them
# [19:25] <annevk> hober: I wonder if I should try to convince Mozilla leadership (if there even is such a thing) that we pull out too
# [19:25] <caitp> why not just fork the spec?
# [19:25] <caitp> make a bigger, better one
# [19:25] <tantek> hober: "Ask me is Apple planning one more time, I dare you, I double dare you …."
# [19:26] <caitp> with pancakes
# [19:26] <caitp> and css
# [19:26] <smaug____> someone else could become the editor, sure
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# [19:26] <smaug____> but I'd probably make rather major changes
# [19:26] <smaug____> and it is really work initiated by Google
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# [19:26] <smaug____> I'd expect Google to have enough resources to finalize and maintain it
# [19:27] <smaug____> annevk: that is actually a good guestion
# [19:28] <smaug____> we should at least think about whether it is really worth spending resources for this half-baked thing
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# [19:29] <annevk> smaug____: especially since what it seems most of us wanted aligns rather well with what Apple wants
# [19:29] <smaug____> yeah
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# [19:31] <smaug____> should ask Gaia folks how they use shadow dom, and whether it is actually useful
# [19:32] <caitp> my experience with googlers is that they have a bit of a hard time focusing on one thing, other duties always seem to creep in, which could be related to inattention to bugs
# [19:32] <caitp> there are exceptions, but it seems common
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# [19:33] <smaug____> "hard time focusing on one thing" sounds so familiar ;) /me kicks himself for not doing what he was supposed to do
# [19:35] <jamesr_> smaug____, annevk: i'm not following web components personally but i can forward your concerns to those who are (i don't think they can pop into IRC right this second)
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# [19:36] <jamesr_> it's definitely being used
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# [19:37] <annevk> jamesr_: we have reached out to some of the editors and in particular dglazkov afaik
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# [19:39] <annevk> jamesr_: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showdependencytree.cgi?id=14972&hide_resolved=1 is the basic problem
# [19:39] <smaug____> if someone from Apple or Mozilla would become the active editor of the web components stuff, the specs might change quite a bit. I wonder if Google would be then willing to make the changes
# [19:39] <annevk> jamesr_: (minus "make examples" bugs)
# [19:40] <annevk> jamesr_: and Google not actually implementing the spec
# [19:40] <annevk> jamesr_: as I understand it
# [19:40] <caitp> if 2 out of 4 popular browsers come up with an incompatible implementation of components, google would probably have to change them
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# [19:42] <Ms2ger> smaug____, well, is Google willing to implement the spec now? :)
# [19:42] <smaug____> heh
# [19:42] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: does it help with moible perf?
# [19:42] <smaug____> Ms2ger: it is implementing some imaginary variant of it
# [19:42] <smaug____> gsnedders: web components?
# [19:43] <smaug____> I can't think of anything which would improve performance
# [19:43] <Ms2ger> gsnedders, we need a "tropes in web standards" catalogue :)
# [19:43] <caitp> it improves peoples ability to read html
# [19:43] <smaug____> but I can think of cases where it slows down performance a bit
# [19:43] <gsnedders> smaug____: I think you're missing the joke :)
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# [19:44] <smaug____> I think not. I just happened to answer as if I did :)
# [19:44] <annevk> Pretty sure it's about ethics in ...
# [19:45] <caitp> womp
# [19:45] <gsnedders> smaug____: actually, should it not be possible to do some sort of memoization for web components? make repeated patterns quicker? or something
# [19:45] * gsnedders doesn't really know about layout
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# [19:47] <smaug____> I don't see how web components(well, shadow dom) could make anything faster comparing to some other random DOM subtrees
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# [19:48] <caitp> sometimes you buy a fast computer with GPUs dedicated to crunching big numbers, to improve performance
# [19:48] <caitp> and sometimes you buy a standing desk because sitting on your ass all day is terrible for your back
# [19:48] <caitp> developer ergonomics
# [19:48] * Ms2ger whacks annevk
# [19:48] <gsnedders> smaug____: the fact you have a single subtree that you can use as a cache key more easily, I'd guess
# [19:49] <caitp> the standing desk won't crunch numbers faster, but you'll feel less miserable while you do it
# [19:49] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: BUT INTEGRITY!
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# [19:50] <annevk> I hate iso-2022-jp
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# [19:50] <terinjokes> but don't use ikea desk with extendable legs, because then you'll just be annoyed that your desk sways (and you eventually lower it back down anyways)
# [19:50] <annevk> Also, browsers are terrible
# [19:50] <annevk> Film at 11
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# [19:51] <jarek> are there any benchmarks that would take web components performance into account?
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# [19:58] <tantek> annevk: also, sockpuppets and the online media editors who seem unable to recognize them when they arrive in droves.
# [20:00] <gsnedders> jarek: probably not
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# [20:02] <caitp> it would be easy to make one
# [20:02] <caitp> just wrap that cool 3d rubiks cube css demo in a custom element, and voila
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# [20:04] <jarek> it would be interesting to see how rewriting jQuery spaghetti code into proper set of web components impacts performance
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# [20:20] <caitp> not having to wait for DOMContentReady before performing all your wacky DOM manipulation would probably be a win for at least one performance metric
# [20:20] <caitp> ready? loaded?
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# [20:22] <jarek> DOMContentLoaded
# [20:23] <jarek> that's an awful DOM event name btw
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# [20:24] <jarek> are there any plans to rename it to "domcontentload" for the sake of consistency?
# [20:24] <caitp> well it's not WM_COMMAND at least
# [20:24] <jarek> s/rename/symlink
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# [20:48] <esprehn> annevk: lots of work is still going into our web components implementation, is there some bugs you're aware of that aren't being addressed?
# [20:55] <tantek> esprehn - seems to be a consensus here that the biggest bug is that Chrome's implementation is divergent from the spec, and the spec isn't being updated accordingly.
# [20:56] <esprehn> I'll talk to the person working on the spec
# [20:56] <esprehn> We should have been better about how the monkey patching was done
# [20:56] <jarek> for me the biggest headache with Web Components is how relative URLs are handled
# [21:00] <esprehn> hmm?
# [21:01] <esprehn> jarek: can you give an example?
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# [21:03] <smaug____> esprehn: from an implementors point of view the current situation is hard. Implementing what the specs say leads to very different behavior what blink has. And one never knows if blink implements what the spec is supposed to say, or if blink behavior is just a bug.
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# [21:07] <jarek> esprehn: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014OctDec/0013.html
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# [21:20] <rubys> TabAtkins: I just updated bikeshed. It no longer accepts ED. Unfortunately, it doesn't accept 'current' or 'dated' either.
# [21:20] <rubys> File "/home/rubys/git/bikeshed/bikeshed/ReferenceManager.py", line 273, in getRef
# [21:20] <rubys> refs = [ref for ref in refs if ref['status'] == "ED" or (ref['status'] == "TR" and self.specs[ref['spec']].get('ED') is None)]
# [21:20] <rubys> KeyError: u'encoding-1'
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# [21:31] <rubys> Heading out. Left this as a comment: https://github.com/rubys/url/compare/anolis2bikeshed?expand=1#commitcomment-8468411
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# [21:55] <esprehn> smaug____: please file bugs, run our tests, and contribute your own
# [21:55] <esprehn> hayato_: ^
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# [21:56] <smaug____> esprehn: bugs filed
# [21:56] <smaug____> some at least
# [21:56] <esprehn> jarek: yes, loading images with css from inside a component is difficult when loaded in
# [21:56] <esprehn> err, packaged in rather
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# [22:37] <annevk> esprehn: there's a whole lot of open bugs against the spec
# [22:38] <annevk> esprehn: some issues I filed with regards to members exposed on ShadowRoot still hasn't been addressed, same with an issue with regards to blocking events based on their type name
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# [22:39] <annevk> esprehn: more recent bugs also go without feedback, seems like there's not active maintenance, especially with some stuff prolly lingering now for a year or so
# [22:41] <Hixie> maybe the spec needs a new editor
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# [22:42] <annevk> There's also the fact that neither Apple nor Mozilla are particularly thrilled with the current design
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# [22:43] <annevk> Hixie: heh, how many editors have you seen deliver solid work recently?
# [22:43] <esprehn> annevk: can you link me to which bugs you think need addressing?
# [22:43] <esprehn> I don't see recent bugs from you
# [22:43] <annevk> Hixie: that's the kind of line I'd expect in one of these 60 people in a room group meetings :p
# [22:44] <annevk> esprehn: my bugs are ancient, recent bugs were by bz and others
# [22:44] <Hixie> annevk: the lack of good editors in general is indeed quite sad
# [22:45] <annevk> esprehn: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16904 was filed in May 2012
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# [22:46] <annevk> esprehn: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23620 from October 2013
# [22:47] <esprehn> I don't believe we can remove the getElementById method, but we should probably remove the others
# [22:48] <annevk> esprehn: a bug of mine was duped against https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20247 which is from December 2012 and pretty fundamental with respect to event dispatching
# [22:48] <annevk> esprehn: getElementById is fine, that's on DocumentFragment these days
# [22:48] <rniwa> annevk: I stopped giving feedback because our feedback was basically ignored
# [22:48] <annevk> rniwa: same
# [22:48] <annevk> rniwa: that's why my bugs are so old
# [22:50] <rniwa> annevk: I think maciej’s encapsulation model has been “accepted” informally on the mailing list numerous times in the last four or five years yet I don’t see any indication of it appearing anywhere in the spec.
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# [22:52] <rniwa> annevk: it would be nice if specs WebApps WG actually reflected the consensus of the WG instead of one participant in the WG...
# [22:53] <rniwa> specs WebApps WG produce*
# [22:54] <annevk> https://github.com/webcomponents/webcomponents.github.io/tree/site/src/documents/specs
# [22:54] <annevk> Is that really where the specifications are hosted these days?
# [22:55] <annevk> Anyway, seems like they're not really updated
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# [22:56] <annevk> Oh no, it's https://github.com/w3c/webcomponents/
# [22:57] <annevk> https://github.com/w3c/webcomponents/commits/gh-pages
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# [22:57] <annevk> So yeah, couple of fixes every so often
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# [23:03] <rniwa> annevk: I think the real issue is that any feedback editors don’t like is not incorporated into the spec. even if multiple non-Google browser vendors liked it :(
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# [23:03] <esprehn> annevk: thanks for the pointers, I'll share them with hayato_ and see where he is in addressing the bug backlog
# [23:03] <rniwa> annevk: surely, they can create a spec that’s consistent with Blink’s behavior but if they’re not accepting any feedback, they might as well as not do it in WebApps WG…
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# [23:04] <annevk> rniwa: "don't attribute to malice..."
# [23:04] <annevk> rniwa: (not that it means we have to be okay with it)
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# [23:05] <rniwa> annevk: I’m not saying that they have a bad intention but it’s an observable fact that they haven’t taken any significant feedback from other browser vendors recently.
# [23:05] <annevk> rniwa: the editors are new, editing core platform features is hard and requires months of hard work
# [23:05] <annevk> rniwa: it seems likely they were not prepared for the task and are also assigned to other things
# [23:06] <rniwa> annevk: perhaps.
# [23:06] <annevk> rniwa: I don't know how to best address it since the amount of good editors we have is rather limited
# [23:06] <esprehn> rniwa: we've be very interested in hearing your feedback as you implement the spec
# [23:07] <annevk> rniwa: and they all have plenty to do already
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# [23:07] <rniwa> esprehn: I don’t think we’re interested in implementing anything unless there is an indication that the spec will change in accordiance with our feedback.
# [23:07] <esprehn> rniwa: that sounds like a hostage situation :)
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# [23:07] <rniwa> there’s no point in having to support something incompatible
# [23:08] <jarek> rniwa: wasn't Shadow DOM work already started in WebKit branch?
# [23:08] <rniwa> jarek: no
# [23:08] <annevk> esprehn: I think it is true to some extent that feedback on the WebApps list has been ignored
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# [23:09] <jarek> rniwa: ohh... I recall someone mentioning it on the mailing list
# [23:09] <rniwa> jarek: I did mention it
# [23:09] <esprehn> annevk: a large amount of feedback has been incorporated
# [23:09] <rniwa> jarek: but I didn’t really start implementing anything since our feedback has largely been ignored.
# [23:09] <annevk> esprehn: some level of engagement, but then failing to make a compelling case and leaving arguments unaddressed
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# [23:10] <annevk> esprehn: that's not really my impression
# [23:10] <annevk> esprehn: I feel that most of the substantive stuff I complained about has been ignored
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# [23:12] <esprehn> annevk: I apologize we didn't get your feedback addressed
# [23:12] <hober> esprehn: that *does* sound like a hostage situation, though probably not in the way you intended...
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# [23:13] <esprehn> hober: perhaps a stand off is better
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# [23:14] <esprehn> annevk: please feel free to bring up your concerns again, I'll point the people in your direction
# [23:15] <Ms2ger> That no longer sounds like a hostage situation
# [23:15] <Ms2ger> That sounds like the HTMLWG
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# [23:18] <jarek> is it still possible that Web Components will end up with native support only in one (well two if you count Opera) browsers?
# [23:18] <jarek> this is what happened with Pointer Events recently
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# [23:20] <jarek> Chrome has too big market share and other vendors can't afford to not support apps/sites optimised for it
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# [23:20] <cbiesinger_> hm? do browsers implement pointer events, beyond ie?
# [23:21] <jarek> cbiesinger_: Mozilla did start work on it
# [23:21] <cbiesinger_> jarek: why? :-)
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# [23:22] <jarek> cbiesinger_: the spec is almost finished
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# [23:22] <esprehn> what's apple's position on the spec?
# [23:22] <cbiesinger_> jarek: it's more that I don't get the impression that blink/webkit are interested
# [23:23] <cbiesinger_> but I could be wrong!
# [23:23] <Ms2ger> Ohai
# [23:24] <jarek> cbiesinger_: they are not interested and they expressed it clearly on mailing list and on Chrome bug tracker
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# [23:25] <cbiesinger_> jarek: ok, so mozilla thinks this is useful nonetheless?
# [23:25] <jarek> cbiesinger_: Google is planning to extend touch events spec: https://docs.google.com/a/chromium.org/document/d/1x-yE4CmTZlZQXea4_FPjgly5TOvF28UBNs9gZ5aGUhg
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# [23:25] <cbiesinger_> jarek: yeah
# [23:25] <caitp> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!searchin/blink-dev/pointer-events/blink-dev/K1qk6qZWgIc/4PxUvSibPTsJ this doesn't sound like an outright rejection of pointer events (or did i miss something?)
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# [23:26] <jarek> cbiesinger_: no idea what Mozilla thinks about it
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# [23:26] <roc> esprehn: this isn't the first time we've reached out to Google people try to get more traction on Web Components standards issues.
# [23:26] <smaug____> cbiesinger_: Gecko has implementation
# [23:27] <smaug____> cbiesinger_: not enabled by default
# [23:27] <smaug____> the initial backend is for Metro
# [23:27] <esprehn> roc: thanks for the feedback
# [23:27] <roc> esprehn: I raised basically the same issues with Hixie a few weeks ago
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# [23:27] <smaug____> cbiesinger_: and yes, pointer events would be way nicer than touch+mouse+touch extensions which google is now driving
# [23:28] <roc> esprehn: and that wasn't the first time either
# [23:28] <esprehn> roc: I'll make sure dglazkov is aware
# [23:28] <smaug____> cbiesinger_: pointer events were supposed to go to blink, but for some reason blink folks decided to go with a model no one else then follow (extensions to touch events)
# [23:29] <jarek> esprehn: Apple invented pointer events, so they will probably opt for extending that spec rather then introducing a completely new input model
# [23:29] <jarek> s/pointer events/touch events
# [23:29] <esprehn> I'm aware of the history
# [23:29] <smaug____> web devs prefer pointer events model
# [23:30] <smaug____> IIRC several script library impls will have pointer events
# [23:30] <jarek> yeah, but as always browser developers know better :P
# [23:30] <smaug____> and just polyfill implementations which don't support them
# [23:30] <othermaciej> I think the reasons Google stated for why pointer events are problematic for perf are correct
# [23:30] <caitp> doesn't polymer use a pretty competent pointer events polyfill?
# [23:30] <caitp> or jquery or something
# [23:30] <smaug____> polymer == google, so pointer events were dropped, IIRC
# [23:31] <caitp> I know who is backing polymer :p
# [23:31] <caitp> but I remember hearing them pushing it at a conference a while ago
# [23:31] <jarek> caitp: that component was deprecated few months ago
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# [23:31] <caitp> ah
# [23:33] <smaug____> we should go back and start all over with XBL2 :)
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# [23:35] <esprehn> caitp: they stopped using it
# [23:35] <caitp> wow apparently you can hide that annoying menu in google groups, TIL. anyways, I see intent to implement + ship threads with 3 lgtms for parts of pointer events, and no "lets not do this" in the other thread, so I must be missing where this rejection happened in blink
# [23:37] <caitp> https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=162757#c64 oh I see.
# [23:37] <caitp> that's pretty painful considering the implementation status from other vendors lol
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# [23:38] <cbiesinger_> smaug____: ^
# [23:39] <smaug____> cbiesinger_: ?
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# [23:39] <smaug____> I did answer to rick about the reasoning
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# [23:39] <cbiesinger_> smaug____: re "for some reason blink folks decided to go with a model no one else then follow"
# [23:39] <cbiesinger_> that is the some reason
# [23:40] <cbiesinger_> anyway, just surprised that firefox implements something that only them and ie support
# [23:40] <smaug____> "especially without support from Safari" is a bit silly. blink implements all sorts of stuff not in Webkit
# [23:40] <smaug____> like web components
# [23:41] <rniwa> isn’t the whole reason Mozilla has implemented pointer events was because Blink was gonna do it?
# [23:41] <smaug____> 2) is not quite true
# [23:42] <caitp> mozilla has implemented quite a lot of things that nobody else has
# [23:42] <smaug____> rniwa: let's say so that if blink folks hadn't said for 2 years that they are going to implement pointer events, gecko probably wouldn't have implementation
# [23:42] <caitp> and by "quite a lot" i mean the handful of examples in my head
# [23:43] <smaug____> caitp: how is that relevant here
# [23:43] <caitp> it was just in response to what rniwa had said
# [23:43] <caitp> I don't think they would wait for blink to do it
# [23:43] <caitp> s/they/you guys
# [23:43] <smaug____> and 3) is something which could be solved too
# [23:44] <smaug____> caitp: well, blink folks explicitly said they will implement pointer events
# [23:44] <cbiesinger_> safari is interested in web components, unlike pointer events
# [23:46] <smaug____> I haven't seen too many positive signals
# [23:46] <smaug____> mostly concerns about broken encapsulation and information hiding
# [23:46] <cbiesinger_> I guess https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2014-February/026251.html is kind of old
# [23:46] <smaug____> which are almost non-existent in web components
# [23:46] <caitp> so why did gecko implement microdata? was that dave's idea or something?
# [23:47] <caitp> according to wikipedia, presto is the only other
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# [23:48] <roc> wasn't that dzbarsky's intern project or something?
# [23:49] * smaug____ wonders if rniwa got anywhere with the shadow dom implementation, given the state of the spec
# [23:50] <rniwa> smaug____: I said web components but not shadow DOM LOL
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# [23:50] <cbiesinger_> rniwa: maciej said shadow dom :) https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2014-February/026258.html
# [23:51] <smaug____> caitp: well, microdata is in the spec
# [23:51] <rniwa> cbiesinger_: well, in that case, I can safely say that I haven’t implemented any
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# [23:52] <rniwa> cbiesinger_: like I mentioned ealirer, there’s no point for me to start implementing stuff when our feedback is completely ignored.
# [23:52] <rniwa> cbiesinger_: then we’re left with an option of either implementing what spec says, which doesn’t match Blink’s implementation, or match Blink’s implementation, or implement something we think is the right API and propose those spec changes
# [23:52] <rniwa> and none of those options are attractive to us.
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# [23:53] <caitp> lots of things are in the spec :p
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# [23:53] <caitp> or in one spec or the other
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# [23:55] <rniwa> smaug____: I find it amusing that you guys have been mis-quoted repeatedly that Mozilla is implementing web components LOL
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# [23:56] <smaug____> I'd say we're experimenting whether it makes sense to implement it all
# [23:56] <jarek> rniwa: is this really the only reason? Web Components are critical for Web Platform to take over the app store ecosystems
# [23:56] <caitp> in january I saw that a lot of mozilla's web components metabug had landed
# [23:57] <caitp> did you revert all that gunk? :p
# [23:57] <jarek> rniwa: and this obviously against Apple's interests
# [23:57] <hober> jarek: i think it would be fair to say that the web needs a component model, sure
# [23:57] <smaug____> caitp: nope
# [23:57] <smaug____> caitp: and we have put lots of resources to this
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# [23:57] <rniwa> jarek: have you read all the specs. for web components?
# [23:57] <caitp> indeed
# [23:57] <smaug____> but perhaps we should have put the resources elsewhere? (just a personal comment )
# [23:58] <hober> jarek: but that capital-W, capital-C Web Components might not be a very good take on defining that component model
# [23:58] <caitp> is it that web components are not a useful primitive for web developers
# [23:58] <caitp> or is it that the feedback is ignored
# [23:58] <caitp> the former is probably fixable
# [23:58] <caitp> er
# [23:58] <caitp> not former, latter
# [23:58] <jarek> rniwa: nope, only the fragments that I was interested in
# [23:59] <rniwa> jarek, caitp: in my experience, a lot of web developers are excied when they hear the word “web components” because there’s a lot of hype about it
# [23:59] <caitp> whether the former is fixable, I don't know --- I know that we want to be able to use web components in angular, and ember wants them too, and probably the next 30 stupid javascript frameworks will want them to be around
# Session Close: Fri Nov 07 00:00:00 2014

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