/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-11-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Nov 07 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <jarek> caitp: as a frontend web developer I can say that Web Components allowed me to greatly simplify the architecture of my app
  4. # [00:00] <rniwa> but they tell me it’s not exactly what they want when I explain to them the feature set we currently have.
  5. # [00:00] <smaug____> jarek: was "Web Components are critical for Web Platform to take over the app store ecosystems" a copy-paste from somewhere ?
  6. # [00:00] <caitp> honestly I don't think it's even that --- it's like this
  7. # [00:00] <rniwa> jarek: by “Web components”, which features are you talking about?
  8. # [00:00] <caitp> if you open up gmail and inspect the DOM
  9. # [00:00] * Quits: Manishea1th (~manishear@wikipedia/Manishearth) (Remote host closed the connection)
  10. # [00:00] <caitp> the source code is terrifying
  11. # [00:01] <jarek> smaug____: no, what makes you think so? I know it's a popular opinion
  12. # [00:01] <smaug____> it is?
  13. # [00:01] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.104.248.getinternet.no) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  14. # [00:01] <smaug____> I don't understand the reasoning
  15. # [00:01] <caitp> if you get people to nicely wrap and encapsulate things, so much better :>
  16. # [00:01] <jarek> smaug____: it was not like I were saying "OMG Apple is trying to take over the world"
  17. # [00:01] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  18. # [00:02] <jarek> smaug____: Apple makes money by selling iPhone, and people buy iPhone because of iPhone apps (and hardware)
  19. # [00:02] <smaug____> I might understand some of it if Web Components provided some sort of encapsulation and information hiding so that people could use components from various sources reliably
  20. # [00:02] <jarek> smaug____: fewer iPhone-specific apps means fewer reasons for customers to buy them
  21. # [00:02] <rniwa> jarek: you do remember that the original iPhone only had web apps and developers kept asking for native API, right?
  22. # [00:02] <smaug____> how are Web Components critical to anything?
  23. # [00:03] <rniwa> jarek: but “fewer iPhone-specific apps” isn’t anything to do with web components :(
  24. # [00:03] <rniwa> jarek: you can literally write web apps that are not iPhone specific today.
  25. # [00:03] <jarek> rniwa: that was a minimum viable product
  26. # [00:03] <rniwa> I agree providing some component API in the Web is useful
  27. # [00:04] <smaug____> useful is different than cricital
  28. # [00:04] <rniwa> jarek: but I don’t think the Web components as currently spec’ed is the best way to do it
  29. # [00:04] <smaug____> critical
  30. # [00:04] * rniwa nods
  31. # [00:04] <jarek> rniwa: and I find it hard to believe that this is motivated purely by technical reasons :P
  32. # [00:05] <caitp> it's like i said earlier
  33. # [00:05] <caitp> it's developer ergonomics
  34. # [00:05] <rniwa> caitp: right.
  35. # [00:05] <othermaciej> Apple wants web apps to work great and be easy to write on all our platforms.
  36. # [00:05] <caitp> at least, in theory it is
  37. # [00:05] <rniwa> caitp: but I don’t think shadow DOM provides the best developer ergonomics
  38. # [00:06] <othermaciej> Especially so the WebKit team, and we are the ones who decide the details of our web standards strategy.
  39. # [00:06] * Quits: sanduhrs (~sauditor@p2003007A0B24A5B92B3808053FE3B98E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  40. # [00:06] <rniwa> caitp: it adds a shit ton of complexity to how DOM works and yet doesn’t provide “true” encapsulation.
  41. # [00:06] <othermaciej> caitp: All my developer ergonomics related feedback on Web Components was 100% ignored
  42. # [00:06] <caitp> yeah
  43. # [00:06] <othermaciej> caitp: with reason of, basically, “too late, we’re shipping"
  44. # [00:06] <caitp> i'm not excusing that, i think a better job could have been done there
  45. # [00:06] <rniwa> what it provides is a weak encapsulation you can pierce through with special CSS syntax.
  46. # [00:06] * smaug____ believes XBL2 -like approach would have led to easier-to-write components than the current Web Components setup
  47. # [00:07] <othermaciej> caitp: after multiple years of “oh, we’ll get to that later, there’s plenty of time"
  48. # [00:07] <caitp> yeah
  49. # [00:07] <rniwa> smaug____: XBL2 is definitely simpler than web components as it stands today.
  50. # [00:07] <othermaciej> you don’t need a conspiracy theory to explain why that might make us not feel so great about it
  51. # [00:07] <othermaciej> I like that Web Components decomposes the XBL-style model into independent parts
  52. # [00:07] <caitp> but the good news is, if only one vendor uses it, even a massively popular vendor, it's probably not going to take over the web
  53. # [00:07] <rniwa> smaug____: it’s amazing we started from “XBL2 is too damn complicated. let’s create something simpler” and ended up with “well, we need something more complicated than XBL2!"
  54. # [00:08] <othermaciej> I think the biggest flaws are missing parts, bad defaults, and not doing enough to make it work well together
  55. # [00:08] <caitp> so tehre's probably still time to unwreck it
  56. # [00:08] <rniwa> caitp: yeah, after some massive renames LOL
  57. # [00:08] <othermaciej> there’s this weird attitude that clean integration points mean a failure of decomposition
  58. # [00:09] <othermaciej> and to some extent, that direct usability is not important because Web cCmponents should ever be used via a JavaScript framework on top of it
  59. # [00:10] <caitp> we'll find a way, we want to keep getting paid :p
  60. # [00:11] <caitp> nah I am kidding --- the idea is that you add useful application tools on top of the useful component tools
  61. # [00:11] <caitp> which is desirable, I think
  62. # [00:12] * Quits: othermaciej (~mjs@17.245.28.59) (Quit: othermaciej)
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  64. # [00:14] <roc> personally I think we're stuck with the Google approach, so my best hope is get the spec and Blink aligned.
  65. # [00:15] <jarek> I find raw Web Components API to be easy enough to be used without frameworks
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  68. # [00:16] <hober> roc: i don't think we're stuck with it.
  69. # [00:16] <roc> hober: you think an alternative approach can be specced and implemented and win in the market against Chrome's?
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  71. # [00:16] <caitp> in the apple/mozilla/microsoft market? probably
  72. # [00:16] <smaug____> we could change at least those odd defaults web components has
  73. # [00:16] <roc> and furthermore, all that energy and disruption would actually be worth it?
  74. # [00:16] <smaug____> to have proper information hiding and encapsulation
  75. # [00:17] <jarek> smaug____: what do you mean specifically?
  76. # [00:17] <jarek> smaug____: is this something facing the API users?
  77. # [00:17] <roc> having to opt into encapsulation isn't great but it's not a deal-breaker.
  78. # [00:18] <smaug____> jarek: anyone can poke into anyone's shadow dom
  79. # [00:18] <smaug____> and make changes, and that way break components
  80. # [00:18] <smaug____> and if that CSS thing is added, that may happen almost accidentally
  81. # [00:18] <caitp> you mean the shadow piercing selectors?
  82. # [00:18] <jarek> roc: only if he does it intentionally, you can't mess up another component accidentally
  83. # [00:18] <caitp> or a different css thing
  84. # [00:19] <jarek> s/roc/smaug___
  85. # [00:19] <smaug____> roc: it might be worth so that we, API designers, learn from this mess
  86. # [00:19] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@108.175.224.24) (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  87. # [00:19] <jarek> smaug____: what CSS thing? CSS is fully encapsulated by default (i.e. if you use <style> tag inside shadow DOM)
  88. # [00:20] <smaug____> caitp: is that what it is called
  89. # [00:20] <smaug____> the selector for accessing shadow dom
  90. # [00:20] <caitp> that's what I call it, it seems like a good name
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  94. # [00:21] <jarek> smaug____: it could be handy in some rare cases
  95. # [00:21] <smaug____> there is also Event.path (though in the current spec it is not clear what it actually returns )
  96. # [00:21] <jarek> smaug____: like when you want to force default font
  97. # [00:23] <smaug____> while programming , say C++, want to poke into the implementations of some class? public: isn't the default
  98. # [00:23] <caitp> web developers don't speak C++, they speak javascript and CSS
  99. # [00:23] <caitp> and in those cases, there's no such thing as non-public
  100. # [00:24] <caitp> they'll be fine
  101. # [00:24] <smaug____> well what is then the point with web components?
  102. # [00:24] <caitp> so, I kinda agree on the CSS thing
  103. # [00:24] * Quits: weinig (~weinig@17.114.217.58) (Quit: weinig)
  104. # [00:24] <roc> smaug____: I really think that having to write a tiny amount of boilerplate to get encapsulation is much less important than just about every other issue here
  105. # [00:25] <smaug____> to get encapsulation? there is no real encapsulation
  106. # [00:26] <smaug____> roc: but sure, I agree the main issue is to get implementation to follow the spec, which means we need to have a spec which can be followed
  107. # [00:26] <smaug____> s/implementation to follow/implementations to follow/
  108. # [00:26] <roc> sure, we're talking about some future extension which actually provides encapsulation.
  109. # [00:27] <jarek> smaug____: I disagree that 100% encapsulation is always good, there are situations were breaking rules makes perfect sense
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  111. # [00:27] <smaug____> jarek: sure, and you opt-in to have weaker encapsulation
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  113. # [00:28] * smaug____ is not sure shadow dom model bends easily to have better encapsulation
  114. # [00:28] <smaug____> maybe it does. Haven't seen any proposals what the API would look like.
  115. # [00:30] <roc> *that* is an important question.
  116. # [00:31] <caitp> are you familiar with parkinson's law of triviality?
  117. # [00:32] * Quits: zcorpan (~zcorpan@90-230-218-37-no135.tbcn.telia.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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  120. # [00:34] <astearns> caitp: I think we should find a better name for that
  121. # [00:34] * Joins: weinig (~weinig@17.114.217.58)
  122. # [00:34] <caitp> lets argue about the naming aesthetics then
  123. # [00:35] <rniwa> smaug____: I don’t think we necessarily need 100% encapsulation
  124. # [00:36] <rniwa> smaug____: but not enabing shadow piercing and not exposing shadow root goes a long way towards making components more version-change relilient
  125. # [00:36] <rniwa> smaug____: as thigns stand, it’s so easily for developers to shoot themselves in foot by accessing shadow DOM and pierce through shadow boundaries.
  126. # [00:36] <caitp> that's true, but it would also be really hard for people who want to build frameworks on top of them
  127. # [00:36] <smaug____> I could agree with that. (implementations, if they want to use shadow dom for form elements and such, will need to have 100% encapsulation)
  128. # [00:36] <caitp> we need a shadow root :(
  129. # [00:36] <rniwa> the worst part is that component’s author doesn’t have a control over it :(
  130. # [00:37] <rniwa> so if you build some component, and let other developers use it
  131. # [00:37] <rniwa> then you have no idea if anyone has been piercing through shadow boundries or not.
  132. # [00:38] * Joins: tantek_ (~tantek@173.128.197.183)
  133. # [00:38] <rniwa> so from component’s author’s perspective, the current design of web components doesn’t solve one of the biggest problem with Web today
  134. # [00:38] <roc> seems like it would be easy enough to have an opt-in encapsulation attribute that blocks the shadow-piercing combinator and access to the shadow root
  135. # [00:39] <rniwa> as I understand it, non-Apple/Google/Mozilla browser vendor has a serious concern about this as well.
  136. # [00:39] <rniwa> roc: right, that’s what othermaciej suggested ages ago, and we’ve been waiting for it be added to the spec.
  137. # [00:39] <rniwa> roc: and we’ve been arguing that it should be the default.
  138. # [00:39] <roc> I recall a pretty long discussion about this in www-style
  139. # [00:40] <caitp> well i mean what are you going to do, give each shadow tree its own JS sandbox, its own style sandbox, and its own event tree?
  140. # [00:40] <rniwa> roc: instead, none of that gets spec’ed and chrome shipped with the default we publicly objected to
  141. # [00:40] <roc> I recall everyone agreeing that encapsulation control was important
  142. # [00:40] <caitp> that would be expensive
  143. # [00:40] <rniwa> roc: right.
  144. # [00:40] <roc> there was disagreement over the default
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  147. # [00:40] <rniwa> caitp: WebKit does that already to implement input, textarea, etc…
  148. # [00:40] <roc> I happen to agree with you about what the default should be, but I don't think the default is important.
  149. # [00:40] <rniwa> caitp: although we don’t have a separate VM since the code is written in C++
  150. # [00:40] <caitp> yes
  151. # [00:41] <rniwa> caitp: but we can certainly make the creation of VM much cheaper
  152. # [00:41] <rniwa> roc: default may not be the show stopper but if there’s not even an option to turn on real encapsulation
  153. # [00:41] <caitp> even if you do, if you ever want to have communication between those sandboxes, it gets nasty
  154. # [00:41] <rniwa> roc: I don’t see a point in implementing shadow DOM
  155. # [00:41] <roc> there's nothing to stop Apple and Mozilla supporting an encapsulation attribute even if Google doesn't care
  156. # [00:42] <rniwa> caitp: indeed.
  157. # [00:42] <rniwa> caitp: that’s precisely why we’d like to sort out details in that world
  158. # [00:42] <rniwa> caitp: and make sure shadow DOM, custom elements, etc… designs are coherent against such an encapsulation model
  159. # [00:42] <rniwa> caitp: it’s hard to add an encapsulation model on top of a non-encapuslated model.
  160. # [00:42] <roc> that's not necessarily true
  161. # [00:42] <roc> it happens all the time
  162. # [00:43] <rniwa> roc: examples?
  163. # [00:43] <caitp> it's hard to ship an encapsulation module which works but is super slow
  164. # [00:43] <caitp> s/module/model
  165. # [00:43] <roc> C++ extends C
  166. # [00:43] <smaug____> roc: getting XBL1 stuff properly encapsulated in Gecko has taken years
  167. # [00:43] <rniwa> roc: oh sure
  168. # [00:43] <smaug____> well, a decade
  169. # [00:43] <rniwa> roc: but we’ve had a lot of internal discussions about how we can use shadow DOM & custom elements to do real encapsulation
  170. # [00:44] <smaug____> (not that we use XBL1 much for web exposed stuff)
  171. # [00:44] <rniwa> roc: and that required a lot of fundamental design changes
  172. # [00:44] <roc> rniwa: by all means share those results
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  174. # [00:44] <rniwa> roc: we already have!
  175. # [00:44] <roc> ok
  176. # [00:44] <roc> I don't really folllow Web Apps so it was probably there
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  178. # [00:45] <rniwa> roc: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013OctDec/0418.html
  179. # [00:45] <rniwa> roc: there’s a long discussion following that email
  180. # [00:46] <rniwa> roc, smaug____: all of that feedback was basically ignored/rejected after a long debate in the favor of us spec’ing the non-encapsulated model first, which loudly objected to
  181. # [00:46] <rniwa> we* loudly
  182. # [00:47] <rniwa> I’m more than happy to work with Mozilla and any other vendor to work out details on how to do real encapsulation with shadow DOM
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  185. # [00:47] <rniwa> In fact, I’d love if you guys are interested in having such a conversation
  186. # [00:48] <rniwa> but I’ve gotten to a point where I don’t see much value in giving furhter feedback on WebApps given the second we say anything, they basically tell me to go implement and come back.
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  191. # [00:54] <roc> rniwa: it looks like you tried to address maciej's "type 3" inverse encapsulation?
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  198. # [00:57] <roc> I think that's much less important than type 2 encapsulation.
  199. # [00:57] <rniwa> roc: yeah, sort of.
  200. # [00:57] <roc> and much harder
  201. # [00:57] <rniwa> roc: I’m not certain. type 2 encapsulation is useful for some things
  202. # [00:59] <roc> I think in practice, component-users depending on the details of component implementations is a much bigger problem than components depending on the details of their users.
  203. # [00:59] <roc> especially in terms of DOM structure
  204. # [00:59] <rniwa> roc: well, type 2 doesn’t solve that problem
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  207. # [01:00] <roc> doesn't it?
  208. # [01:00] <rniwa> roc: because it doesn’t prevent component users intruding into its implementaion
  209. # [01:00] <roc> "2) no API is provided which lets code outside the component poke at the shadow DOM. Only internals that the component chooses to expose are exposed."
  210. # [01:00] <rniwa> roc: oh sorry, I misunderstood.
  211. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> rubys: I can't comment on that thread anymore; don't know what's up.
  212. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> rubys: Anyway, linking issues are fixed. Thanks for pointing them out.
  213. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> rubys: The constructor and stringifier not linking is a known issue. Hopefully it's okay to leave them unlinked for now. I'll work on that next week with some other WebIDL fixes I've been putting off.
  214. # [01:03] <rniwa> roc: right, we want to support 2 & 4.
  215. # [01:03] <rniwa> roc: because for things like “like button” we need at least 3 if not 4.
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  217. # [01:03] <rniwa> roc: and for regular reusable components, we want 2.
  218. # [01:04] <roc> seems to me that an opt-in attribute that blocks the shadow-piercing CSS combinator, and blocks the use of the shadowRoot getter on Element, would go a long way towards type 2 encapsulation.
  219. # [01:04] <rniwa> roc: indeed.
  220. # [01:04] <othermaciej> roc: that would probably be sufficient for type 2
  221. # [01:04] <othermaciej> roc: I think for type 4, you need that plus script isolation
  222. # [01:05] <TabAtkins> + a way to name internal pieces that *can* be styled. You really need that for it to be useful.
  223. # [01:05] <othermaciej> roc: part of the right reason I care about type 2 is that I think it’s a good building block for type 4
  224. # [01:05] * TabAtkins is gone for the day and can't follow up; is busy being on vacation.
  225. # [01:05] <othermaciej> TabAtkins: yes, controlled styling access is obviously useful (arguably useful even if you also have unconstrained internals styling access)
  226. # [01:05] <rniwa> othermaciej, roc: yeah, scripts fiddling with prototype probably belongs to 4
  227. # [01:05] <roc> I need to think about it more, but currently I'm not enthusiastic about providing 4 in Web Components.
  228. # [01:06] <rniwa> roc: because it’s a different way of writing iframe?
  229. # [01:06] <roc> I hope that the Like-button example can be satisfied with a Web Component hosting a cross-origin IFRAME.
  230. # [01:06] <roc> rniwa: because I suspect it would add a ton of complexity to the platform.
  231. # [01:06] <rniwa> roc: the problem is that like button may need to show a pop over to type in comments
  232. # [01:06] <rniwa> roc: i think script isolation already exists in the form of browser extensions
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  234. # [01:07] <roc> I don't think so
  235. # [01:07] <rniwa> roc: but I have no doubt it introduces some complexity to the platform.
  236. # [01:07] <rniwa> roc: !? Firefox extensions run in the browser’s main world/isolate?
  237. # [01:07] <roc> e.g. our XBL <video controls> and <marquee> are not trusted.
  238. # [01:08] <rniwa> roc: interesting. but how about browser extensions injected scripts?
  239. # [01:08] <smaugB2g> not trusted, but have non-web view of things
  240. # [01:08] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@70.6.131.183) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  241. # [01:08] <roc> rniwa: some do, some don't. We do support isolated script worlds. But multiple isolated script worlds living in the same page ... we don't really support that.
  242. # [01:09] <rniwa> roc: oh I see.
  243. # [01:09] <rniwa> roc: okay, so there could be some challege there.
  244. # [01:09] <rniwa> roc: I think combining iframe + dialog element may work
  245. # [01:09] <smaugB2g> yes we do, via wrappers
  246. # [01:09] <rniwa> roc: we just need to sort out use cases and figure out what’s needed for those social media buttons
  247. # [01:10] <rniwa> roc: as well as DISQUS and other cross-origin widgets
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  249. # [01:10] <rniwa> social button case is particularly interesting because the button itself is super tiny and yet the comment form needs to be much larger than the button
  250. # [01:10] <smaugB2g> /me suggests asking bholley about Gecko's wrappers
  251. # [01:11] <roc> smaugB2g: we support isolated script worlds manipulating objects from other pages. But you can't, for example, add a DOM node with a different principal to the rest of the page. Without that, I'm not comfortable claiming we have isolated worlds inthe same page.
  252. # [01:12] <rniwa> roc: oh I see.
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  254. # [01:12] <rniwa> roc: but I don’t think we need to support something that complicate
  255. # [01:12] <rniwa> roc: we can solve that in DOM API instead
  256. # [01:12] <rniwa> roc: e.g. we can treat shadow root like iframe’s document element
  257. # [01:12] <roc> rniwa: I just don't want to spec and expose an entirely new kind of isolation in the Web.
  258. # [01:13] <rniwa> roc: I used to think like that.
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  261. # [01:13] <rniwa> roc: but I think we want the same components model work both same-origin and cross-origin
  262. # [01:13] <rniwa> roc: and we might be able to use iframe’s machinary
  263. # [01:13] <rniwa> roc: instead of inventing its own
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  267. # [01:14] <rniwa> roc: ideally, we’ll be just re-using some code we have for iframe already in terms of implementation
  268. # [01:14] <roc> if we can do that by actually using an iframe, that's so much better.
  269. # [01:14] <rniwa> roc: i agree we defintely don’t want to introduce a new security model, etc...
  270. # [01:14] <rniwa> roc: indeed.
  271. # [01:14] <rniwa> roc: at some point, I had an iframe to suguar-coat iframe and provide some nice components API instead
  272. # [01:14] <rniwa> roc: so something like that might work
  273. # [01:14] <rniwa> roc: but this is precisely why we should talk about these stuff :)
  274. # [01:15] <rniwa> roc: and would love to have it spec'ed
  275. # [01:15] <rniwa> roc: perhaps we can have an in-person meeting some time? it’s hard to talk about this without a white board.
  276. # [01:15] <roc> sure
  277. # [01:15] <roc> this is a great time to visit New Zealand
  278. # [01:16] <roc> :-)
  279. # [01:16] <rniwa> roc: oh, you’re in New Zealand?
  280. # [01:16] <roc> yeah
  281. # [01:16] <rniwa> roc: coming to the bay area anytime?
  282. # [01:17] <roc> no doubt, but not for a few months at least
  283. # [01:17] <rniwa> roc: or WebApps F2F in the spring (presumably in paris)?
  284. # [01:17] <roc> probably not
  285. # [01:17] <rniwa> roc: Okay. Please let me know when you do because I don’t think I’m in a hurry to talk about it at the moment.
  286. # [01:17] <roc> this isn't really my bailiwick
  287. # [01:17] <rniwa> roc: so the next few months will probably work for me.
  288. # [01:17] <rniwa> roc: okay.
  289. # [01:18] <rniwa> roc: I think wil chen & sicking are both SF? so it might make sense to meet there.
  290. # [01:18] <roc> yeah
  291. # [01:19] <roc> personally, given the market realities, I think it's a mistake to try to block Web Components on cross-origin stuff. I think we should get the simple type 2 encapsulation added, opt-in, and move forward.
  292. # [01:19] <smaugB2g> you want bholley for any encapsulation discussions
  293. # [01:20] <smaugB2g> for the technical part at least
  294. # [01:27] <rniwa> roc: I agree although I want to make sure we have a rough sketch on how to approach type 4 as well
  295. # [01:27] <rniwa> roc: so that our design for type 2 encapsulation isn’t entirely inconsistent with what we’re going to add later on
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  298. # [01:29] <rniwa> roc: may I have your email?
  299. # [01:29] <rniwa> smaugB2g: who is bholley?
  300. # [01:29] <rniwa> roc: mine is nick at apple.com
  301. # [01:30] <rniwa> (as in <my IRC nick> at apple.com)
  302. # [01:30] <roc> robert@ocallahan.org
  303. # [01:31] <roc> rniwa: have you got a thorough list of use-cases?
  304. # [01:31] <rniwa> roc: yeah, we have a list of use cases
  305. # [01:31] <smaugB2g> rniwa: search for bholley+mozilla
  306. # [01:32] <roc> rniwa: can you point me at them?
  307. # [01:32] <rniwa> roc: we have an internal list
  308. # [01:33] <rniwa> roc: it’s kind of messy at the moment with all the notes mangled up
  309. # [01:33] <rniwa> roc: so let me clean that up and send it to you
  310. # [01:33] <smaugB2g> rniwa: naturally you'll want also bz' comments
  311. # [01:34] <rniwa> smaugB2g: most definitely.
  312. # [01:34] <rniwa> smaugB2g: is bz in MV or SF?
  313. # [01:34] <smaugB2g> east coast
  314. # [01:34] <rniwa> oh I see.
  315. # [01:35] <rniwa> perhaps I need to stop by when I go to WebApps F2F in Paris in spring
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  317. # [01:37] <roc> rniwa: if you could send it to a mailing list, webapps probably, and let me know, that'd be great
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  319. # [01:37] <rniwa> roc: okay, I can do that.
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  321. # [01:37] <roc> ta
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  343. # [02:19] <jwalden> anyone who works on HTML validators: why exactly would a validator emit a "Text run is not in Unicode Normalization Form C." warning? it seemed like the point of composed/non-composed was to permit exactly that flexibility, so I don't see why warning is reasonable for this, on first pale
  344. # [02:20] <MikeSmith> hi jwalden
  345. # [02:20] <MikeSmith> I work on the validator code
  346. # [02:20] <MikeSmith> I think we have an open bug about this
  347. # [02:20] <jwalden> I will grant that my use case is a rather esoteric one, to be sure :-)
  348. # [02:21] <MikeSmith> what's your use case?
  349. # [02:21] <jwalden> I'm doing a blog post about the JS Intl API, and some of my examples include deliberately non-composed text, to demonstrate collation examples work regardless of composition or not
  350. # [02:21] <jwalden> var decoratedBrowsers = ["A\u0362maya", "CH\u035Br&ocirc;me", "Firef&Oacute;x", "sAf&agrave;ri", "o\u0323pERA", "I\u0352E"];
  351. # [02:21] <jwalden> :-)
  352. # [02:22] <MikeSmith> ah
  353. # [02:22] <MikeSmith> yup
  354. # [02:22] <MikeSmith> so yeah that is a bit esoteric, but still
  355. # [02:22] <MikeSmith> anyays, that message is a warning, not an error, right?
  356. # [02:22] <jwalden> MikeSmith: yeah, just a warning
  357. # [02:23] <jwalden> MikeSmith: just seemed a little strange to be anything, because of composition being optional being a feature and all
  358. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> yeah
  359. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> maybe we should just drop it at this point
  360. # [02:23] <MikeSmith> jwalden: we'd need to get some attention from hsivonen
  361. # [02:23] <jwalden> MikeSmith: or at least have it not as part of the default warnings, perhaps
  362. # [02:24] <jwalden> it's not an unreasonable thing to want to know about, potentially
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  364. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> jwalden: fwiw for now, if you go to http://validator.w3.org/nu/ and check your doc and then push the "Message filtering" button, you can uncheck that message and you will never see it again (it persists the filtering)
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  367. # [02:26] <jwalden> MikeSmith: interesting; that's a next-gen unstable validator or so?
  368. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> Hixie and I have been talking about appending a "Do you think this message is not helpful. If so, please post a comment to _this bug_." (or something) thing to particular error messages, to collect feedback from authors/devs
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  370. # [02:27] <MikeSmith> jwalden: that is an alternative UI. hsivonen and I should maybe merge that and the html5.validator.nu UI at some point.
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  374. # [02:28] <jwalden> seems reasonable
  375. # [02:28] <MikeSmith> jgraham: but that UI is for the same backend instance that the main (legacy) http://validator.w3.org/ validator uses for checking HTML5 docs
  376. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> it will probably become the UI for http://validator.w3.org/ itself eventually (after retiring the old perl+SGML w3c validator to http://validator.w3.org/old or some such)
  377. # [02:29] <jwalden> mm, Perl, SGML
  378. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> s/jgraham/jwalden
  379. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> heh
  380. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> yup and DTDs too
  381. # [02:30] <jwalden> tasty
  382. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> :)
  383. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> anyway I'll bug hsivonen about the Unicode normalization thing
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  387. # [02:37] <MikeSmith> jwalden: we don't yet have any way to opt-in to stricter warnings. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't want to add one, since the trend over the years has been been make the user-facing behavior of validator.nu simpler, with fewer knobs to turn
  388. # [02:37] <jwalden> fair enough
  389. # [02:38] <jwalden> I guess it depends what you want to lint for, really
  390. # [02:38] <MikeSmith> true
  391. # [02:38] <MikeSmith> that's why I added the message-filtering thing
  392. # [02:38] <MikeSmith> that gives the user the choice about what to see and not see
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  395. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> and philosophically, this tool really is more like a linter than it is like the old w3c validator. It's just that the linting rules are formally defined in a spec (the HTML spec)
  396. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> it's really mostly meant just to help people catch unintended mistakes -- not to give a pass/fail certification or something
  397. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> and that's also the philosophy that I think Hixie has moslty always taken when adding document (authoring) conformance requirements to the HTML spec
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  405. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> jwalden: fyi I just raised a new bug for this http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=1009 Feel free to comment there if you have more to say
  406. # [02:56] <jwalden> wilco
  407. # [02:58] <MikeSmith> thanks for taking time to ask about it
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  409. # [03:00] <MikeSmith> it's always nice to know that people actually working on Web platform stuff actually do use the validator sometimes
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  412. # [03:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I know you may not care about this so much but if/when you have a few minutes, it would be great if you could go into https://github.com/settings/emails and add your @iki.fi address and also add the hsivonen@c6dcca6c-c432-0410-a79e-3fbb6554aff1 and hsivonen@e7398766-c432-0410-9565-638d39ca0058 and hsivonen@cc716562-c432-0410-be78-79d2286756cb and hsivonen@5bfc576b-c432-0410-be1c-015b6bc4b1a2 pseudo-addresses (and probably a few others)
  413. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: otherwise, when somebody view https://github.com/validator/validator/graphs/contributors it looks like you've only made 64 commits to the validator sources, which obviously is pretty misleading
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  415. # [03:12] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: do to the degree it matters we have a somewhat more accurate record available from the github Web UI it would be nice
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  422. # [03:47] <tantek> rniwa - isn't that the point of the Extensible Web Summits?
  423. # [03:47] <tantek> re: in-person meeting on Web Components
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  426. # [03:49] <rniwa> tantek: I don’t think Extensible Web Summits are necessarily for Web components
  427. # [03:49] <rniwa> tantek: they talk about a lot of other new Web technologies
  428. # [03:50] <tantek> it would seem the Extensible Web Summits would attract the same people you would want in the room to discuss Web Componenets
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  430. # [03:50] <rniwa> tantek: I guess so at least for Web developers
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  432. # [03:51] <tantek> rniwa - I see that as a feature - if you're "fixing" web components, you likely need web developer perspective in the room to be sure you're "fixing" them the right (read: practical/relevant for webdevs) way.
  433. # [03:51] <tantek> too many times I feel I've seen browser-dev-only minutia discussions go off into the weeds and end up with weird edge case conclusions that are nothing but super confusing for webdevs.
  434. # [03:52] <tantek> having webdevs in the room is an excellent reality check for that kind of thing - certainly has been in the CSSWG.
  435. # [03:52] <caitp> > every mailing list thread ever
  436. # [03:52] <tantek> (not always effective, but often)
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  438. # [03:52] <tantek> caitp - hah, yeah. the "useful" mailing list threads anyway that aren't just support forum q&a.
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  440. # [03:54] <rniwa> tantek: oh sure
  441. # [03:54] <rniwa> tantek: but I think I’ve done that part already.
  442. # [03:55] <rniwa> tantek: what I really need is coming up with some strawman proposal I can tell developer
  443. # [03:55] <tantek> rniwa - then you have all the answers? I was under the impression that you needed to collaborate with others to "fix" web components.
  444. # [03:55] <tantek> the point is to have the webdevs in the room when you come up with the strawman proposals in-person at a f2f meeting
  445. # [03:56] <rniwa> tantek: oh, what I need to do is talking with other browser vendors to come up with a solution that everyone can agree to
  446. # [03:56] <tantek> right, *that* is what I'm talking about needing webdevs in the room for
  447. # [03:56] <tantek> otherwise, "everyone can agree to" == aformentioned "go off into the weeds and end up with weird edge case conclusions that are nothing but super confusing for webdevs"
  448. # [03:57] <rniwa> tantek: well, I don’t think we necesarily need web devs with us all the time
  449. # [03:57] <rniwa> tantek: we just need to get feedback early and often
  450. # [03:57] <tantek> nor should we treat "check with webdevs" as a waterfall step
  451. # [03:57] <rniwa> tantek: but most importantly, we need to understand their use cases
  452. # [03:57] <tantek> yes, agreed on that
  453. # [03:57] <caitp> terrible decisions get made when users aren't around and paying attention
  454. # [03:57] <tantek> ^^^ this
  455. # [03:57] <rniwa> caitp: right
  456. # [03:58] <rniwa> but at the same time, a terrible design will be chosen if we had asked users to come up with a design
  457. # [03:58] <rniwa> so we need to balance the two.
  458. # [03:58] <rniwa> although to be fair, web devs are developers so they aren’t like ordinary notive users
  459. # [03:58] <rniwa> end* users
  460. # [03:58] <rniwa> we have to deal with in other feature development
  461. # [04:00] <caitp> technical constraints can't win over user appeal, it's not worth it
  462. # [04:00] <rniwa> caitp: well, if something is a technical constraint, we can’t just remove it.
  463. # [04:00] <rniwa> caitp: that’s why it’s a “constraight"
  464. # [04:01] <rniwa> what we need to do is to understand use cases web developers care about
  465. # [04:01] <rniwa> and address those pain points by coming up with a solution that works around technical constraints we have
  466. # [04:01] <rniwa> that’s our job
  467. # [04:02] <caitp> it's my job too, and I've found that we usually do a pretty awful job at it
  468. # [04:02] <caitp> we build systems where we're actually unable to make things work better
  469. # [04:03] <rniwa> caitp: examples?
  470. # [04:03] <caitp> maybe that's a case of not getting enough user input to begin with, but I think it's mostly that we're pulling things out of our asses to accomodate internal applications without thinking about the bigger picture
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  472. # [04:04] <caitp> you end up with a lot of internal "we need this otherwise corner case X, so build all these walls nobody wants"
  473. # [04:04] <caitp> and then the system becomes unmalleable very quickly
  474. # [04:05] <caitp> and at that point it becomes very depressing to maintain it, whether "it" is a spec or implementation
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  476. # [04:05] <caitp> so for real, get user stories, make sure user use cases are covered, and make sure the use cases that you want to cover, are covered __well__
  477. # [04:07] <tantek> and FFS, please *document* the user stories and use cases somewhere openly like on a wiki
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  481. # [04:11] <caitp> sorry, examples --- i'm mainly talking about in framework land, but there are a lot of similarities to the web at large in terms of our complete inability to change things lest we break people :(
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  492. # [04:56] <rniwa> caitp, tantek: I agree documenting use cases well and continously evaluating desing against them is critical.
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  495. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> amen to what tantek said about "having webdevs in the room is an excellent reality check for that kind of thing"
  496. # [05:01] <MikeSmith> and "too many times I feel I've seen browser-dev-only minutia discussions go off into the weeds and end up with weird edge case conclusions that are nothing but super confusing for webdevs"
  497. # [05:20] <rniwa> MikeSmith: indeed.
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  528. # [06:37] <JonathanNeal> Is there a spec for devicePixelRatio?
  529. # [06:37] <JonathanNeal> And by devicePixelRatio I mean the one like window.devicePixelRatio
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  531. # [06:38] <JonathanNeal> Whoops, maybe it’s http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#dom-window-devicepixelratio
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  601. # [10:13] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: did you see my earlier ping about the github stuff?
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  608. # [10:22] <annevk> MikeSmith: please keep the NFC warning
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  610. # [10:23] <annevk> MikeSmith: I appreciate someone finding an exception to the rule, but in practice that stuff can end up being very confusing if your code is infected by it
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  621. # [10:36] <MikeSmith> annevk: OK
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  623. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> I guess then we should add a link in the warning message to some place where authors can find more info on how to fix it
  624. # [10:37] <MikeSmith> also maybe we should consider actually adding it as a document conformance requirement to the HTML spec
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  628. # [10:43] <annevk> MikeSmith: could point to http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr15/ I guess
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  636. # [10:54] <MikeSmith> annevk: I meant something more user-friendly. Because there are python libraries and such that fuck this stuff up (e.g., like lxml or something causes through the spec-splitter or anolis code when generating the formatted HTML spec) and it's then not obvious to an author how to fix that
  637. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> annevk: example: http://validator.w3.org/nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fhtml%2Fsingle-page.html
  638. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> those problems are in the giant character-references table in the spec, and caused by some python thing in the spec-generation toolchain doing the wrong thing
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  644. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> for &langle; and &rangle;
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  650. # [11:22] <annevk> Domenic: what's up with the TAG not responding to the security questionnaire proposal?
  651. # [11:23] <annevk> MikeSmith: ah okay, now you mention this... explaining this to someone that has not taken a deep dive seems hard
  652. # [11:25] <MikeSmith> annevk: Yeah
  653. # [11:25] <annevk> MikeSmith: I sometimes forget I've been doing this for a decade
  654. # [11:26] <MikeSmith> You're getting old, man
  655. # [11:26] <annevk> MikeSmith: now Unicode and encoding discussions feel totally natural, but before e.g. 2008 that was not really the case
  656. # [11:27] <MikeSmith> Yeah this stuff is totally arcane to most web devs
  657. # [11:27] <annevk> MikeSmith: I noticed some thinning hair
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  659. # [11:28] <annevk> MikeSmith: and finally it almost can be, since encodings are such a thing from the past
  660. # [11:28] <MikeSmith> Yeah, we're moving to a lot better place
  661. # [11:29] <annevk> Although, iso-2022-jp... I feel like I should really turn some of these quick tests into proper test case, but it's just such a hassle to do that correctly
  662. # [11:29] <annevk> E.g. testharness with its absolute URLs requires a local server running... Although I suppose I could develop them online someplace
  663. # [11:30] <MikeSmith> iso-2022-jp is just an ongoing world of hurt
  664. # [11:30] <annevk> I'm getting there: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27256
  665. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> annevk: maybeyou could do it with wptserve
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  667. # [11:31] <annevk> Although the new design is a tad more complicated. Two state tracking variables. One byte tracking variable. And a flag. (Most likely, not done yet.)
  668. # [11:32] <annevk> MikeSmith: sounds like something I should look into
  669. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> Ohthat's a very recent big
  670. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> bug
  671. # [11:32] <MikeSmith> annevk: talk to jgraham
  672. # [11:33] <annevk> MikeSmith: yeah, though it's based on three older bugs
  673. # [11:34] <wilhelm_> wptserve is your friend.
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  681. # [11:56] <Ms2ger> annevk, you can just run `python serve.py` in wpt root, with a little bit of one-time setup
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  684. # [12:01] <annevk> Ms2ger: sounds pretty awesome
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  692. # [12:11] <Ms2ger> annevk, we (and by that I mean jgraham) have tried to make it as painless as possible :)
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  697. # [12:32] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webappsec/2014Nov/0097.html (feel free to reuse for other groups that get this wrong)
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  716. # [13:23] <annevk> Ms2ger: thanks for that, this looks great
  717. # [13:23] <annevk> Ms2ger: wish I had known this earlier
  718. # [13:24] <Ms2ger> Np :)
  719. # [13:24] * annevk goes to setup a test for iso-2022-jp to make spec writing easier
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  729. # [13:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I already have my @iki.fi address set on github
  730. # [13:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: where do the pseudo-addresses come from?
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  732. # [13:52] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: from the old cvs-svn-hg commit messages
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  735. # [13:52] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: how do I find the full list I need to add including "(and probably a few others)"?
  736. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: by doing git log | grep hsivonen | uniq
  737. # [13:54] <MikeSmith> or some such
  738. # [13:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I added the four pseudoaddresses, but they can't receive email, so they are unverified
  739. # [13:55] <hsivonen> is that enough?
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  743. # [13:56] <annevk> decode([0x1b, 0x24, 0x40, 0x50, 0x50], "佩", "Multibyte ESC, character") <3
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  745. # [13:57] <annevk> I feel so stupid now for not having set this up earlier
  746. # [13:58] <annevk> Bah, Safari doesn't support TextDecoder yet
  747. # [13:58] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: yeah that's expected; same case as me for my older commits
  748. # [13:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: OK, I've added them all
  749. # [13:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
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  751. # [13:59] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: how often does github recrunch the numbers?
  752. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks much. I don't think those ever change, so that should cover it forever
  753. # [14:00] <MikeSmith> Oh rhe data
  754. # [14:01] <MikeSmith> yeah I dunno how often. maybe only once a day or so
  755. # [14:01] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok.
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  768. # [14:30] <annevk> What are you doing?
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  779. # [15:02] <mukilan> Hi! In the fetch spec it says "Let HTTPRequest be a copy of request, except that HTTPRequest's body is a tee of request's body. ". What does "tee" mean?
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  781. # [15:06] <annevk> mukilan: pain
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  783. # [15:07] * annevk was hoping for https://streams.spec.whatwg.org/ to define it, but it seems that's missing
  784. # [15:07] <mukilan> annevk: haha
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  787. # [15:07] <annevk> mukilan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tee_%28command%29
  788. # [15:07] <annevk> mukilan: there's a comment in the source that stream-related terminology needs to be grounded at some point
  789. # [15:08] <annevk> mukilan: doesn't help you much of course :-(
  790. # [15:09] <mukilan> annevk: could you please put in layman's terms? why split the source stream? where does the other copy go?
  791. # [15:10] <annevk> mukilan: so one copy goes over the wire
  792. # [15:10] <annevk> mukilan: the other one remains part of request, in case we need it again
  793. # [15:11] <annevk> mukilan: (we need it again if we hit a redirect or authentication)
  794. # [15:12] <mukilan> annevk: and the reason we use "tee" rather than just copy is because the body is like a pipe rather than a block of bytes?
  795. # [15:12] <annevk> mukilan: yeah, you can't copy a stream
  796. # [15:13] <annevk> mukilan: whereas everything else from a request can be copied
  797. # [15:13] <mukilan> annevk: ah! now it makes sense. thank you very much :)
  798. # [15:14] <annevk> happy to help, hopefully in due Domenic will have defined tee
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  801. # [15:17] <annevk> due course, even
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  806. # [15:21] <Ms2ger> Hi mukilan :)
  807. # [15:22] <mukilan> Ms2ger: Hi!!
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  855. # [17:17] <TabAtkins> tantek: Interestingly, it's precisely "having webdevs in the room" that led to the current "minimal encapsulation" WC design. (One particular group of advanced authors, but still, authors doing actual Dev with it.) Every time we tried to have stronger encapsulation, it made their job much harder and they howled over it. So our minimum viable product ended up
  856. # [17:17] <TabAtkins> being "encapsulated unless you choose to pierce it in purpose".
  857. # [17:19] <annevk> TabAtkins: e.path is piercing?
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  859. # [17:23] <TabAtkins> No, we clean event paths when the events cross boundaries, unless that's somehow changed in the last few months.
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  862. # [17:27] <annevk> I think that changed way earlier
  863. # [17:27] <smaug____> google folks, any chance to get http://updates.html5rocks.com/2012/07/Drag-and-drop-a-folder-onto-Chrome-now-available updated to not use webkit prefixes
  864. # [17:28] <smaug____> oh, hmm
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  866. # [17:28] <smaug____> it is using google only file system stuff too, I guess
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  868. # [17:33] <smaug____> but that is still wrong
  869. # [17:33] <smaug____> the File system API has been abandoned
  870. # [17:34] <smaug____> TabAtkins: you might know who maintains html5rocks.com
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  876. # [17:42] <annevk> jgraham: there's no encoding requirement around web-platform tests, right?
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  878. # [17:45] <gsnedders> annevk: everything should be utf-8 except when there's good reason, IMO
  879. # [17:46] <annevk> I don't think you have to tell me that... I want to know if something might break
  880. # [17:46] <annevk> I don't really see another way to test e.g. iso-2022-jp's encoder
  881. # [17:46] <gsnedders> Nothing should break.
  882. # [17:46] <gsnedders> I'm not sure how well tested that is, though :)
  883. # [17:47] <annevk> Well it's happening
  884. # [17:48] <mukilan> annevk: In the HTTP fetch spec, section 4.3 step 11, it says "If HTTPRequest's body is non-null, run these substeps:" this does not apply to GET and HEAD methods right ?
  885. # [17:50] <annevk> mukilan: I don't think we allow the combination of those methods and a body, right
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  887. # [17:52] <mukilan> annevk: yes, but is it assumed that the check is performed in HTTP spec? i'm asking because of this test /XMLHttpRequest/send-entity-body-get-head-async.htm
  888. # [17:53] <annevk> mukilan: I think XHR has such a check itself
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  890. # [17:54] <annevk> mukilan: https://xhr.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-xmlhttprequest-send "If the request method is GET or HEAD, set body to null."
  891. # [17:54] <mukilan> annevk: ha! i missed that. sorry for the trouble :)
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  899. # [18:03] <TabAtkins> smaug____: I'll try to remember to bug them on Monday. On vacation now. (I'm bad at vacation.)
  900. # [18:05] <smaug____> vacation, what is that ;)
  901. # [18:05] <smaug____> TabAtkins: thanks
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  903. # [18:08] <annevk> Hmm
  904. # [18:09] <annevk> \u005C\u203E\uFF90 -> \%1B(J~%1B$B%_%1B(B
  905. # [18:09] <annevk> Note how the %1B is sensible, but %_ is not, yet both Firefox and Chrome do the exact same thing
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  914. # [18:28] <annevk> Note also how https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#query-state endorses this madness by not escaping %
  915. # [18:28] <annevk> Not sure what to think of this...
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  917. # [18:43] <Ms2ger> annevk, is a 404 a "network error"?
  918. # [18:43] <annevk> Ms2ger: no
  919. # [18:43] <annevk> Ms2ger: network error has status 0
  920. # [18:44] <Ms2ger> Hrm
  921. # [18:45] <Ms2ger> I can't figure out what's expected from importScripts("NonExistentFile.js")
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  923. # [18:47] <annevk> Ms2ger: are we talking HTTP 404?
  924. # [18:47] <Ms2ger> Yes
  925. # [18:47] <annevk> Ms2ger: Hixie doesn't really define it
  926. # [18:48] <Ms2ger> Lovely
  927. # [18:48] <caitp> Domenic: is chai-as-promised expected to work with promise APIs that don't try to look like ES6 Promises?
  928. # [18:48] <annevk> Ms2ger: but if we assume <script> processing model, it should just parse and execute
  929. # [18:48] <caitp> (someone filed a bug on us, and I'm not seeing how it would possibly work)
  930. # [18:48] <Ms2ger> I've got tests from MS that expect a NetworkError
  931. # [18:48] <Hixie> Ms2ger: does HTTP define that as a successful load or a failed load?
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  933. # [18:49] <annevk> Hixie: it's not defined in terms of HTTP though
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  936. # [18:49] <Hixie> annevk: Ms2ger's case was http
  937. # [18:50] <Hixie> annevk: the HTML spec just says "If the fetching attempt failed"
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  939. # [18:50] <Hixie> so it depends on the protocol's definition of success
  940. # [18:50] <annevk> Yeah, given <script> and <img> and such I'm inclined to say that this should just work
  941. # [18:50] <annevk> That seems very sketchy
  942. # [18:51] <annevk> We should define things in terms of network errors vs non network errors (what <script> and <img> do) or in terms of status codes
  943. # [18:51] <Ms2ger> Also not quite obvious
  944. # [18:52] <Hixie> file a bug saying what you want it to say (ideally matching implementations)
  945. # [18:52] <annevk> Ms2ger: ^
  946. # [18:52] <Ms2ger> Filing
  947. # [18:53] <Ms2ger> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27276
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  949. # [18:58] <annevk> I guess I'll finish this iso-2022-jp rewrite this weekend
  950. # [18:58] <annevk> And submit some tests for it
  951. # [19:02] <smaug____> https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/DragAndDropEntries might use a comment that the File System API is obsolete
  952. # [19:02] * smaug____ wonders if he has account for that wiki
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  1028. # [21:38] <wanderview> jsbell: can you reopen this issue? https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=429832
  1029. # [21:38] <wanderview> jsbell: based on this spec issue: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/551
  1030. # [21:41] <jsbell> wanderview: done
  1031. # [21:42] <wanderview> jsbell: thanks! sorry for my initial confusion in that bug
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  1033. # [21:46] <jsbell> wanderview: re: response bodies... yeah, I was pondering that too. they're more subtle since e.g. text() on a response consumes the body even if it's empty. We don't implement optional bodies on Responses yet either via script ctor
  1034. # [21:49] <wanderview> jsbell: aren't Request and Response identical in how they handle empty bodies per the spec? the default is "Let stream be an empty byte stream." ... which I guess could be consumed, but it would be nice to avoid that
  1035. # [21:53] <jsbell> hrm, right.
  1036. # [21:53] <wanderview> jsbell: I think the fetch spec needs to be clarified: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/550#issuecomment-62209952
  1037. # [21:53] <jsbell> +1
  1038. # [21:53] <jsbell> Also, bleah, we apparently support new Response(null) but not new Response()
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  1040. # [21:54] <annevk> jsbell: I hope new Response(null) is equal to new Response("null")
  1041. # [21:55] <jsbell> annevk: you may be disappointed. :) crbug.com/412027
  1042. # [21:55] <annevk> Hmm, guess I have to review that issue at some point
  1043. # [21:56] <jsbell> (agreed it *should* turn into "null", though)
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  1045. # [21:58] <jsbell> On a tangent, union support in Blink's IDL compiler is almost usable. Yaaaay! *kermit flail*
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  1047. # [21:58] <annevk> It's really hard to balance getting work done and answering difficult emails
  1048. # [21:59] <annevk> On the upside I'm almost done with iso-2022-jp (again), and on the downside there's a bunch of emails that need looking into plus I don't know what else
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  1051. # [22:02] <wanderview> jsbell: unrelated question... is there IDB 2.0 spec going on? possibly including the KeyRange.inList() thing I proposed a year or so ago?
  1052. # [22:02] <jsbell> wanderview: SW has been eating my time. I've got a team member exploring API changes to improve perf, including the inList thing actually
  1053. # [22:02] <wanderview> jsbell: cool... I haven't looked at recently (because SW!), but I didn't want to miss the boat again
  1054. # [22:02] <jsbell> wanderview: we need batched fetches of some sort too; the overhead of an event per result is too damn high
  1055. # [22:03] <jsbell> wanderview; not missing anything. I'll make noise when there's any attempt at concrete progress
  1056. # [22:03] <wanderview> jsbell: awesome, thanks!
  1057. # [22:03] <jsbell> wanderview: I've been noodling on IDB+Promises again too.... https://gist.github.com/inexorabletash/8c122c84a65de65c35b3
  1058. # [22:04] <jsbell> not sure that holds together or not yet, or that it's an improvement
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  1060. # [22:05] <wanderview> seems reasonable
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  1085. # [22:54] * roc_ is now known as roc
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  1087. # [22:56] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
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  1101. # [23:38] * Quits: dbaron (~dbaron@2620:101:80fb:224:6141:cd08:db16:921d) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  1102. # [23:39] * Joins: newtron (~newtron@out-on-167.wireless.telus.com)
  1103. # [23:39] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather@cm-84.210.170.16.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1104. # [23:40] * Quits: Lachy (~Lachy@213.166.174.2) (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
  1105. # [23:40] * Quits: newtron (~newtron@out-on-167.wireless.telus.com) (Remote host closed the connection)
  1106. # Session Close: Sat Nov 08 00:00:00 2014

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